PTs Not Released - Why is this a Thing?

[drealmerz7]

PTs should always be released, without edits. I've not seen 1 good argument for why not.

I think it is likely that those that don't want them released are assholes who don't want it publicly known that they are such. The sort of people who most people don't actually want to play games with in the first place and would get excluded from games in meat-world if they behaved the way they actually wanted to. Scum-chat IS a public thing already, even if just a smaller public that is the team, and just because sometimes you get a scum-team of shitheads, doesn't mean they should be protected by anonymity because their shit is offensive. You don't protect assholes ability to be assholes so they can continue being assholes, it doesn't make sense.

This is a team-based competitive GAME, and there is no room for shitheads, imo. It is supposed to be a fun, challenging, rewarding, community-building experience. It is not a haven for assholes and shitheads to behave like assholes and shitheads any chance they can get because they enjoy it and like to cause destruction / negativity among the community.

Also, this is not a game of political correctness and soft-skins, if you can't handle contention, frustration, and metaphorically wanting to KILL YOUR ENEMY, you shouldn't be playing a game where one of the huge foci is KILLING YOUR ENEMY.

Yes, things get heated. Things get said that maybe would have been better if not. But part of community / social interaction (like playing games with groups of people who know each other to varying degrees) is working through the issues, not hiding from them. Communication and understanding (civility) is key to a healthy community of people who all want to do the same thing (have fun playing mafia.) If you don't want to have fun playing mafia, but rather be a shithead who makes beefs, you need to be weeded out.

[drealmerz7]

There are things - that some people will feel sorry for after playing as scum

Like designing a manipulative plan to make someone look bad. Publickly revealing these stuff are normally ok but if that plan results a drama - or heartbreaking situations the details are better to be kept secret.

Its not about being a jerk during the game. Its about keeping your friends friend after them.

If you feel sorry, apologize, or don't go there in the first place. It's just a game, it's meant to be fun, if you get to personal and drama, it's no good, but if shit happens, be mature and deal with it, don't hide it, that is way worse, and leads to bad/worse behavior. Respect and communication.

But letting people decide what they want to share with others after the game seems a really reasonable approach.

If you're speaking it to others, you want to share it with others and have decided to do so.

[drealmerz7]

How is hiding it way worst?

And who are you to decide what is way worst for someone else?

Because it is not honest. It's a relationship based on deception. This is worse than one based on communication and working towards resolutions when conflict occurs. I'm not deciding what is for someone else, I'm saying what I think is healthiest for the community, and when you talk about "maintaining friendships", there are definitely ways to do that and not to do that.

This is a game, we're not maneuvering for control over the planet Dune.

[drealmerz7]

it honestly sounds to me like a majority of the people who don't like their PTs released are afraid and have shit scum-games they need to "protect" - it's game content and should be able to be viewed by all and doing so only helps everyone improve their game

if you are going to get offended over how someone talks about you in regards to the game, you shouldn't be playing mafia, it's not a game for the thin-skinned

[drealmerz7]

yeah me and FA talk over either skype or sitechat. posting in a thread is a terrible way to discuss reads.

is this even allowed?!?!?! in my view all game-content should be able to be monitored by the mod and any discussing OUTSIDE of the realm of the mod is against the rules

you could essentially, without recourse, talk about ongoing games this way too, and I question the moral integrity of many players to not discount that as an option of going on

this should be a huge no-no

[drealmerz7]

If people are committed to secretly discussing ongping games, insisting on a scum PT/hydra PT won't stop them.

but it can be discouraged and made not-as-easy if mods require hyrda PTs if there is going to be a hydra (instead of just permitted skype chat with no hydra PT)

[drealmerz7]

I don't quite follow

if there is a rule that hydra's must only use a PT that the mod has access to to discuss the game it is in, it's on the players themselves to follow the rule or not

if there isn't a rule saying that, then those who don't give a fuck about the integrity of games and just want to win at any cost / doing anything they can get away with (which includes using skype), they'll do that and feel superior and because "hey there was no rule against it!" whereas if there's a rule at least they know they're a scumbag at heart (whereas otherwise they are just lying to themselves and don't feel such a thing - potentially)

[drealmerz7]

my issue is only if you're using skype to talk about the game you're hydra-d in instead of the hydra PT

my issue is with the mod not being able to monitor all content related to the game they are modding

on my HS we have 2 brothers that play and live together, if they both draw scum they are not allowed to talk about the game anywhere but in the scum PT, to even have a passing comment outside of where the mod can see it, is a no-no, and we trust them to uphold that integrity - as an example

I have no issue if you're skyping with someone you're also in a hydra with as long as you're not doing anything game-related, of course

[drealmerz7]

this is why hydras are fucking bogus to begin with unless it is a hydra-specific game

[drealmerz7]

both seems to be an issue to me, but I understand the grey areas

[drealmerz7]

even if that includes breaking rules - to me that is what creates the grey areas

[drealmerz7]

even if that includes breaking rules - to me that is what creates the grey areas

There is no site rule that is broken in the discussion of a game that both hydra players are involved in.

example:

"that guy is a fucking asshole loser I hate him so fucking much let's try and push a speed-lynch on him"

"I agree, I want to piss on his face so fucking much - I'd kill his children if I could!"

[drealmerz7]

There are no site rules broken by having that convo on Skype.

and in a PT?

[drealmerz7]

hmk ya I see - does the mod have access to the PT?

[drealmerz7]

yeah, it will never be a question for me either when I mod games

scum PTs will be made available upon completion of the game, no edits allowed

and hydras will never be allowed in games I mod

[drealmerz7]

I think it is more about from a mod's perspective like BTD6 emphasized

you say as a mod "if you are a hydra you must use this PT if you are going to communicate about the game, any communication about the game outside of the gamethread or this PT is against the rules" - is not dumb, and that is all my position is

that position then further extends to: if you're going to break that rule, well then fuck you pretty much (: even if there's no ability to tell if ppl are breaking rules or not, doesn't mean to forgo the rule

[drealmerz7]

If your scum strategy is so fragile that you can't have the PT publicized, then it's a shit strategy and you should evaluate it.

[drealmerz7]

people don't take honest talk well because they are used to being coddled and people not being straight with them (probably starting with their parents/whoever raised them and growing from that)

it's not something you should feed into, it's something they need to get used to / over

AND it is a game on the internet with mostly strangers and semi-acquaintances, if you can't handle the shit that is said, mafia is not for you

look at gerryoat and myself as a great example - I talked at length in PYP doubledeck about his badtown play and how to utilize it to win the game - I manipulated people in hoods talking about it and we talked about it in scumchat, and then I was outright direct with it in the game thread at times with stuff like "scum is leaving gerry alive because he's bad and likely to throw the game if given a chance" and shit like that - it's simply part of the game

[drealmerz7]

do you really want to read that so badly

absolutely, it's game-relevant and I like to see how/why the game unfolded how it unfolded

it also gives insight into YOUR play, and how you might do things in future games, all very important to know

it is not about the individuals anymore at that point, it's about the overall picture of the game - which should be available for all to see

[drealmerz7]

if you go hunting for shit to be offended by then you're a drama queen and you can GTFO

[drealmerz7]

if you go hunting for shit to be offended by then you're a drama queen and you can GTFO

welcome to humanity

welcome to me, striving to change humanity by not feeding in to the shit that perpetuates the bad parts

[drealmerz7]

I don't wanna quote mastin's wall but I remember the shock I felt when I read her assessment of my play during her scum game: she said the best way to deal with town-me was to let me push mislynch after mislynch and to hope I get so angry that I replace out. And you know what? She was absolutely right. I always remember that before going on a thread destroying rampage and as a result, I've become a better player.

But as a scum player, I don't want you knowing your weaknesses and I don't want you getting better. How to exploit you is for the eyes of my scumbuddies only.


As for mastina's point, if someone doesn't want to be called a sack of shit then maybe they shouldn't act like a sack of shit.

you're not a scum player

you're a mafia player

sometimes you roll scum, and when you do, you should be seeking out the best challenge you can, anything less is not worth my time to play against

this sort of playstyle you like dumbs down the game

you probably would deflate footballs in the superbowl to get an advantage, wouldn't you katsuki?

I'm REALLY sick of people around here playing in styles that are soley to advantage THEIR own scum game

[drealmerz7]

did I say that? I asked a question

and again, you not wanting to help someone improve their game brings down the game on a whole level entirely

playing like that is why the quality of mafia games has gone down over time here

and why on my HS noobs contend with veterans - we all help each other improve and constructively criticize each other's play and talk about all the things

[drealmerz7]

yep that's a question

[drealmerz7]

you are mistaken, it's not a disagreement (:

[drealmerz7]

yep, exactly why the state of play doesn't improve is that mentality right there

all I can do is argue why and tell you you are wrong and hope you might at somepoint begin to consider it as possible and then maybe you can start to see the light

that playstyle absolutely dumbs down the game

it's been covered over and over and over though, you are just closed to the Truth for some reason/can't see it

*know* that you are wrong

[drealmerz7]

I improve best by self-analysis and reflection - then if I have more questions for someone/want more feedback about something, I can ask

being self-taught is not do be underestimated

[drealmerz7]

why would it be better?
wouldn't this require more effort from both the person seeking feedback and the people who would give it?

it would be better because the scum PT doesn't have any specific information for any player. The scum PT is just filled with scum thoughts. It won't say "X is doing Y he really should be doing Z"

making it specific on what they could do is better for personal growth.
and reading scum pt can leave alot of stuff out of context which a person just causally reading it may think something that is now a scum tell for Y is just a situational factor due to something happening in game or w/e.

it does require more effort, but if you want to improve, that requires effort.

it's more about a broader understanding of the game and how and why things happened, not necessarily about specific individuals

a good scumchat is awesome to read for insight into the game and players

[drealmerz7]

it's more about a broader understanding of the game and how and why things happened, not necessarily about specific individuals

a good scumchat is awesome to read for insight into the game and players

I mean if you want to know a specific thing like "Hey why did scum make X kill" most mods will answer that question without you having to read the scum chat to know why. Scum players are just like players, they aren't magical gods of the game, they sometimes don't know what the hell they are doing. Expecting to always improve from reading that chat is like expecting to improve from reading someones opinion on best fishing techniques when they have never fished in their life.

it's not about "expecting to always improve"

words like expect and always indicate you are missing the point I'm/others are trying to get at

you never know what you might glean from just a turn of phrase that someone uses or understanding one thing that was said in the game thread in context to what was said in the scum chat - POTENTIALLY there's ssooooooooooooo much to be gained from having the scumchat available, and it will vary from player to player from game, and when you have communication among all of the players or some of the players it all enhances and becomes that more insightful and able to learn from

I see one thing in scumchat post-game and I make one small comment in the game thread about it and it spurs an entire conversation about method and tactics and THAT is part of what is so great about mafia, the social aspect and passion among fellow players who have understanding of the same "thing" and like to talk about it and improve their skills and ... why wouldn't you want to get into all of that awesomeness with others???

my only answer? is because you're the sort of person who would deflate footballs in the superbowl to gain an advantage if you could

the "you" here being the General Yu

part of the fun is playing with the same people over and over and over and learning them and competing against them - I mean just think about professional football as a good analogy

the best players study each other, know each other, challenge each other to improve

we're all potentially on the same team, and all should be at least pretending we are on each other's team from game to game

so you study the film with your fellow team-mates and really get into the nitty gritty:

"yo, drealmer, when you RAGE LIKE A FUCKING LOON BUT FORGET TO USE YOUR TILDE~!!~ WITH YOUR EXCLAMATIONS, I've noticed that that is only ever you as town" or whatever the hell it is (maybe a bad example but you get the idea)