Mini 1860 - Game Over!

[Tywin Lannister]

VOTE: JarJarDrinks

Seeing the name JarJar makes me triggered.

[Tywin Lannister]

Yyyyyyyyyyyy

The red letters in your role pm.

Welp, that's game folks! Vote: red letters

Am I doing this right?

As a side note: All three of three of those newer Star Wars movies sucked. Also, contrary to popular opinions, I didn't think the new Disney one was that great either. It only looked good when compared to those three piles of turds.

[Tywin Lannister]

Either keyenpeydee hasn't been lynched yet because scum don't want to lynch their buddy, or people are being cautious.
One of the two, really...

This must clearly be why an RVS wagon hasn't been hammered yet. Astounding observation. Does this mean you think keyan is scum?

[Tywin Lannister]

It wasn't a good answer at all

How was my vote contrived? I like easy wagons especially in rvs

Why would you like easy RVS wagons? Do you like not having to scum hunt?

[Tywin Lannister]

Also: meta sucks. It's lazy and bad play without a clear substantial pattern over many games, and even then, any half decent player can switch things up regardless of alignment knowing so many people on these forums think meta is useful. Unless they're a robot, then anyone can easily change their meta every game.

I see people use meta constantly in this forum and ice never understood why.

[Tywin Lannister]

The feels man, the feels.

Twoface: I find them to be mostly useless. They may jump start conversation, but no more than anything else does. Oh well, it's largely inconsequential. Tomato tamato. Thought maybe you were implying something you weren't.

[Tywin Lannister]

Is this -grey-'s first post? I'm too lazy to check on my phone. Still, I'd say we are past RVS -grey-, so I second Two Face's question. Why?

[Tywin Lannister]

Just checked. -grey-'s first vote was p1. So I'd say bot are serious.

[Tywin Lannister]

They may jump start conversation, but no more than anything else does

right, jump starting conversation helps getting people talking, when people talk they say things to help figure people out.

I'm not disagreeing. I originally thought you were implying you wanted a quicklynch out of it, which is why I asked you. I don't know what you were implying without asking.

[Tywin Lannister]

Okay, I think we're out of that dumb phase, we can start playing the game now congrats everyone

Looks to me like people are already playing the game, so why the need to announce this? Looks to me like you still aren't playing the game, but are keeping the prod away with a fluff post.

[Tywin Lannister]

Okay, I think we're out of that dumb phase, we can start playing the game now congrats everyone

VOTE: Gerryoat

This is a bad vote because you've played with me enough to know I say this every game. Did you finally flip maf and trying to push a vote, despite knowing that this is something that I regularly say?

@Everyone: Remember when I said that meta sucks and gave reasons why? Look at this guy ^. This is a guy that knows his meta and so uses it as a defense. He clearly thought this through beforehand.

Do we all know why meta sucks now? It allows crap like this to happen.

[Tywin Lannister]

@Gamma Emerald: it's an obvious example of how meta can be used by anyone to twist whatever they want. Yes, this is minor and not AI, but he literally has kept links to his 'meta' to show everyone how 'I always do this' is his thing. He clearly gets questioned on it in other games or who would save that? It just shows how true my statement on meta is IMO. It's an easy excuse for people to manipulate whatever they'd like in their favor. We are supposed to ignore Gerryoat's statement according to him due to his many times of 'always doing this' as if doing it before means it excuses repeating it in an entirely different game.

@Lil Uzi: what makes them impossible to read? Mafia isn't a science anyways. It's a psychological game with lots of manipulation. You really think those great players you mention can't/don't manipulate their meta? Look at GerryOats doing it. Regardless, while some players are harder to read than others, using a bad tool to attempt it isn't really a good thing IMO.

Aside from that little rant, can someone explain the keyan wagon with any clarity besides 'this looks contrived' or 'self-consciousness' as if it is anything other than your feels? That wagon got loaded fast without much of anything worth mentioning. I see a lot of 'I feel like this, I feel like that' without evidence to back up those feelings.

I also see a lot of 'your post isn't worthy, my post is!' Raskolnikov for instance making Lil Uzi apologize. Why are you backing down Lil Uzi? What exactly is wrong with you posting your running thoughts as you catch up? More posts only help garner reads. Anyone trying to shut you down without reason should be suspect.

[Tywin Lannister]

Man this feels like a newbie game lol.

How so? Explain your feels

[Tywin Lannister]

It's when you respond/react to things in the past without catching up. In this case that exact question was asked and answered since that post but he missed it.

This one is super minor and I was mostly poking fun but when people actually do it hardcore is when it gets really ridiculous.

Yeah that was my bad, I just saw a whole bunch of Gerry talk and skimmed because most of it is probably NAI. I don't see what's wrong with restating your reasoning again though. I may not have understood it you know.

Really? 158. Three posts above yours.

[Tywin Lannister]

Hmm. I didn't have it as a scum read at all really against Lil Uzi. Looked inconsequential, but I didn't like Rask's shut down followed by calling the game 'newbie' as an aside. It seems Rask is trying to avoid conversation here, and regardless if the question was about an older post (this game hasn't even been active long enough for that time lapse excuse), what exactly was wrong with the question to shut it down and claim 'this is so newbie' after? Rask said it was a joke, and then called it ridiculous for others to not take it that way.

I find all that to be far too defensive for little reason. Aside from defensive, it has not-so-subtle barbs littering the whole post sequence. Elitism/ego at work, or scum shutting down anything before it starts? If Rask is such a light hearted player who jokes oh so much, then why am I reading it differently than supposedly intended? Maybe the humor is forced? Otherwise, it may just be bad.

Your thoughts Rask?

[Tywin Lannister]

I don't infer anything about Dave by his post, which is why I asked him if he believed Keyan was scum. He hasn't answered. Im still waiting. I personally don't care what kind of environment he comes from. All environments vote/lynch who they think are scum, not randomly for no reason. If Dave didn't believe Keyan was scum, why did he say what he did? If he does believe Keyan is scum, what are his reasons?

[Tywin Lannister]

If key flips town?

then obviously I would not keep an eye on him...

maybe but still wouldn't scumread him based on that alone.

never said I would. Also can you please not offer me advice on how to play my game. thank you

2F, your reads are as shit as ever. I remember you being so aggressive and ruining town.

uhh just going to say no comment and ignore this.

I will say that I am not even being aggressive right now.

This is just bad play. You wouldn't keep your eye on me if Keyan flipped town? Really? Only scum know alignments, so if i were scum, wouldn't it make sense for me to not defend my scum buddy, but defend a townie wagon? I think that's common sense. What I don't like is you trying to pair me with Keyan for no reason other than me asking why the Keyan wagon got so large without any reasoning behind it. You don't seem to like that though. Why? You don't like bad wagons explained? There are plenty of things to vote Keyan for that were no apparent at that point in the game. That means those votes need explanations.

Also, you're not aggressive, just abrasive. There's a difference. You haven't added anything to the conversation that justifies it though.

[Tywin Lannister]

Okay, I think we're out of that dumb phase, we can start playing the game now congrats everyone

VOTE: Gerryoat

This is a bad vote because you've played with me enough to know I say this every game. Did you finally flip maf and trying to push a vote, despite knowing that this is something that I regularly say?

@Everyone: Remember when I said that meta sucks and gave reasons why? Look at this guy ^. This is a guy that knows his meta and so uses it as a defense. He clearly thought this through beforehand.

Do we all know why meta sucks now? It allows crap like this to happen.

I think you're reaching very hard. It was just something that I say every game, and something that I feel like as town he wouldn't push on. But i guess he wasn't aware of it as I thought he would be.

I'm not reaching at all. If I was reaching, I'd have called it AI and voted you. I did neither. I simply used you as an example for why meta is useless. You used your own meta to defend yourself, which obviously is a good example showing how meta can be manipulated.

So where's the reach? Do you disagree with my assessment? Did you not use your own meta as a defense?

[Tywin Lannister]

I also see a lot of 'your post isn't worthy, my post is!' Raskolnikov for instance making Lil Uzi apologize. Why are you backing down Lil Uzi? What exactly is wrong with you posting your running thoughts as you catch up? More posts only help garner reads. Anyone trying to shut you down without reason should be suspect.

My bad, I do come off condescending a lot and I have to work on that. Wasn't intending to shut down lil or deny him a voice or something like that lol.

Man this feels like a newbie game lol.

How so? Explain your feels

Just the discussion on theory and basics like when to use meta being as much of a focus as it is. Was a throwaway comment not a super vital gamebreaking observation

@rask: fair enough

[Tywin Lannister]

I'd like Dave to answer the questions posed to him by multiple players now.

[Tywin Lannister]

This is just bad play. You wouldn't keep your eye on me if Keyan flipped town? Really? Only scum know alignments, so if i were scum, wouldn't it make sense for me to not defend my scum buddy, but defend a townie wagon? I think that's common sense. What I don't like is you trying to pair me with Keyan for no reason other than me asking why the Keyan wagon got so large without any reasoning behind it. You don't seem to like that though. Why? You don't like bad wagons explained? There are plenty of things to vote Keyan for that were no apparent at that point in the game. That means those votes need explanations.

Also, you're not aggressive, just abrasive. There's a difference. You haven't added anything to the conversation that justifies it though.

What's bad play? Me wanting to keep an eye on you if key flips scum but not town? Well sorry I disagree which is why I said what I said.

Also there is no black and white with regards to what scum will do to their buddies. Some people bus, others don't. Early day 1 if a scum buddy gets into trouble it's a tough decision on what's the best way to handle it and I could totally see you as a buddy attempt to discredit the votes like you did. It's the type of defense that can be written off as a cautious townie.(for example, in the game I just finished where scum got lynched fairly early day 1, one scum flat out called the guy town.) There's no one absolute way to handle a partner getting run up.

I'm also not concerned with what you like. I call things as I see them. If that makes somebody upset/nervous/etc that's not my problem.

Also I'm not trying to pair you with anyone. You're the second person to make that mistake. Keeping an eye on somebody doesn't mean I automatically think they are scum. It just means I'll have to reread their posts to see if they make sense as a buddy. That post you made just struck me as odd.

I think town should keep their eye on me regardless of what Keyan flips. That's my point. I also don't know why you paired me with him, except for me asking for reasons from the early voters on him. I think it's a fair question to ask.

[Tywin Lannister]

My vote on JJD was from RVS. I just never took it off. Still reading, but noticed another JJD vote, so I'm going to UNVOTE:

For now. May revote that slot later if warranted, but I'm not staying on the wagon without catching up first.

[Tywin Lannister]

People who I'd consider good votes atm:
keyen
psychodave
gamma emerald

I agree with this actually.

Keyan looks too easy, and the wagon grew too fast very early without much reasoning at the time beyond 'feels,' but his recent play hasn't looked any better. I also don't like him putting me in as his essentially only town-read in that huge read list he posted. I was at the top. I question the wagon and he jumps on me as being super town, while Two Face jumps as if it connects me to Keyan. Both extreme reactions seem contrived to me.

Psychodave has been given excuses for his supposed 'fast environment' as to why he posts fluff and/or scummy things. He hasn't answered any questions posed to him, and for some reason, nobody has truly jumped on him with votes the way they have with Keyan. Only a select few have questioned Dave or his motives at all. That makes me suspicious. Also, where is TwoFace giving his pairing if Dave flips scum? I forgot which person it was that explained Dave away as 'fast paced environment' so I'll have to go back and find it, but I'm on my phone so it will take another post to do it. Regardless, TwoFace should be pairing those two as well if he holds to his current reasoning. Why hasn't this happened?

Gamma seems to vote randomly and gives little weight to them. I questioned Rask's motivations about Lil Uzi, and gamma votes Lil Uzi right after. I didn't get why, and it looked odd. Then Rask questions gamma about his casual play, so gamma does a literal 3 minute ISO (supposedly) and changes votes. Again, I don't see any real reason for it and there's no weight with the vote. It seems to go on whomever seems easy at the time, but it doesn't look like Gamma legitimately believes they're voting scum in any instance.

All the mentions of TwoFace above lead me to mention a possible OMGUS read (on my part) on TwoFace. Mainly it's due to him trying to pair me with Keyan for questioning the early vote reasons on him. He then says if Keyan flips town, he's not going to watch me anymore. That doesn't seem like a townie statement. Townie TwoFace should watch everyone regardless. Whatever Keyan flips wouldn't make me more/less town. What's the goal with the pairing statement? He claims he isn't telling anyone else what to do after the fact, but told 'town' to watch me in his original post. It seems like he's flip flopping his stance based on whether he gets questioned on it or not. He also gets very defensive/abrasive about it too, which seems odd to me. This may all be OMGUS/conf bias on my part though. I'll let everyone else decide. Regardless, I find his overall play to be scummy, although maybe he just likes being an Internet tough guy. It's hard to tell RN.

[Tywin Lannister]

Do you think JJD had good reason to TR you in post 181 Rask? If not, why did you ignore his tr on you but not vijarada's? And JJD, if part of your reason for TRing Raskol was that he questioned a shitty tr on him (213), why do you continue to TR her when she inconsistently ignores your shitty TR on her? Trying to make sense of this. Raskol, why isn't jarjar being lynched? This doesn't look right

VOTE: JJD
L-2

Found the name. Kyouko is the one who defended Dave and claimed his play was clearly 'fast paced environment.' Now I see Kyouko wants to quicklynch JJD? What are your reasons for this vote Kyou? Could you explain why JJD is scummy and Dave is not?

[Tywin Lannister]

@tywin: So you think I'm scum for vote hopping?

I gave reasons why I agreed with you being possible scum from my perspective. That doesn't mean you're tops on my scum list, or id be voting you. Your vote hopping just looks like you don't actually believe any of them are scum, which makes me question alignment.

[Tywin Lannister]

if key flips scum, keep an eye on tywin.

Not a fan of two-face saying that Tywin should be looked at if keyen is scum, then saying "There's no one way that buddies interact, we should just read Tywin after a scumflip to see if they make sense as buddies". That seems like a different position taken after questioning.

I'm not telling anyone how they should read Tywin actually. I just said how I'm going to. At least get your facts straight

Posting this for future TwoFace attack on me, since his personality makes me assume it's a guaranteed reaction.

[Tywin Lannister]

This forum needs a phone app. Ugh.

[Tywin Lannister]

How many vote changes has this been for Gamma? Looks like an OMGUS vote on me now for calling Gamma out. I believe that's 4-5 vote changes since RVS ended. Does that seem like a townie who believes all their votes are legit scum? They can't all be right, and the reasoning used to place those votes are weak even in the best possible light. I think Gamma may be scum here. I also could be convinced to lynch Dave too. Keyan looks too easy, and I still don't like the fast wagon that happened on him early. I got attacked by TwoFace for even questioning it (with Gamma backing him up), so there's that too. If key is lynched though, that would bring more light into reads, which may mean a productive lynch. I still prefer either Dave or Gamma atm. TwoFace may be town, otherwise idk why Gamma would jump on his bad reasoning so readily here. Being inherently biased, I believe my reasoning was more sound, so Gamma switching (again) to me based on the TwpFace/Me exchange seems very opportunistic and scummy IMO.

Will reread and vote later. At work right now.

[Tywin Lannister]

well he's probably scum also. I can only vote 1 scumread @ a time.

Are you reading the same game I am? No way is Gamma scum in this game.

Please point out a flaw in my case.

How about the fact it's superficial and lacks any actual scum motivation?

So why are you voting me? And what do you know about Gamma's motivation? He's voting me too. Hmm...

[Tywin Lannister]

I'm not TwoFace. Pairing is pointless this early in the game, and I also won't call you a liar right after you post evidence proving whatever point you were making was.

What I will say is that you don't have a case whatsoever, and you're both hopping on me to chainsaw TwoFace. I find it odd that I have three players essentially either attacking and/or voting me (although Gamma/grey vote have no substance or reason, just 'feels' as if that's legitimate), all because I questioned the early wagon on Keyan. I then question TwoFace's motivations and you both jump to defend him. Does that not seem odd to you two? Of course not, but it sure may to me and the rest of town.

So what exactly is your great case against me? You've asked me no questions, so you clearly aren't out to legitimize your votes. You haven't given me anything to refute/explain/defend, because you don't have anything scummy on me. All you have is a 'feeling' that apparently -grey- finds to be an amazing case. Odd. -grey- looks to be buddying an oblivious Gamma, since I doubt both are scum. That would just be terrible play if so.

Going to VOTE: -grey-

[Tywin Lannister]

You just posted a lot of words, but it said nothing. You're sheeping a non-case and blatantly defending/attaching yourself to gamma consistently. My vote stands. Sheep however you'd like.

[Tywin Lannister]

grey is REALLY looking like scum now.

Why? Because I don't confirm to your cookie cutter mold of what town should look like?

Explain what my scum motive is.

Your scum motive is to win by getting townies lynched while you survive. Am I doing this right?

[Tywin Lannister]

I'm not TwoFace. Pairing is pointless this early in the game, and I also won't call you a liar right after you post evidence proving whatever point you were making was.

You never proved shit about me. I proved you lied.

Btw pairing isn't stupid. If you think you know who one scum is, finding partners is a good idea. I've seen games where town delayed ending a day early when a pr caught scum so town could find possible partners.

Really? Are you seriously this egotistical that you believe that? I showed your two quotes side-by-side showing how you literally did it, and now you continue to lie about it and call me the liar instead. What could you 'prove' I lied about when I posted exactly what you did? Are you always too rage-induced to see it? You act like a victim and cried wolf already by saying Keyan broke site rules due to calling your play 'bad' and now you call me a liar by ignoring actual posts in the game. It's ridiculous. Either you're completely blind, completely filled with ego to a point where you can't accept when you're wrong, are scum and being manipulative (and doing badly at it), or all of the above. I can't decide which yet.

[Tywin Lannister]

if key flips scum, keep an eye on tywin.

Not a fan of two-face saying that Tywin should be looked at if keyen is scum, then saying "There's no one way that buddies interact, we should just read Tywin after a scumflip to see if they make sense as buddies". That seems like a different position taken after questioning.

I'm not telling anyone how they should read Tywin actually. I just said how I'm going to. At least get your facts straight

Posting this for future TwoFace attack on me, since his personality makes me assume it's a guaranteed reaction.

One thing is not like the other. Let's play the 'Who Lied With Quotes' game! Our next contestant: TwoFace! Cmon down!

[Tywin Lannister]

Odd how you lied about this TwoFace and Gamma/-grey- jump on me for posting it. Isn't it? Doesn't that seem a little suspicious? It sure does to me.

[Tywin Lannister]

Regardless of your flip flopping stances when called out, I don't believe you're scum TwoFace. You make too many mistakes and are too rage induced to be considered cautious whatsoever. Due to that, I point the finger mainly at Gamma/-grey-, with -grey- as the most likely scum. Just realize that you are wrong here and accept it. You said something and backed out later as if you never said it. Just don't call me the liar for pointing it out.

[Tywin Lannister]

Could we get a vote count?

this dude comes back and all he asks for is a vote count, despite there being questions on him.

What questions would you like me to answer?

Here's a few more for you behind what Gerryoats just asked:

1. Why have you not posted any opinions, thoughts, or questions toward anyone the entire game?

2. Do you expect town would win if everyone posted exactly like you have?

3. What are your thoughts on Keyan? Thoughts on Gamma? Thoughts on -grey-?

4. What are your thoughts on TwoFace calling you a 'useless townie?'

5. Do you believe your current play/participation has justified others viewing you as possible scum?

[Tywin Lannister]

Right but Gerry didn't ask him any questions so what's he harping about?

I jut find it weird to come back and not have anything to add except "can we get a vote count"

Right it's odd. That's why I said he's useless. Considering the concept of the game, I don't see scum doing that.

He's another in a long line of useless players. Almost every game has one or 2.

Have you never seen 'useless townies' flip scum? Just curious.

[Tywin Lannister]

Why did you ask question 2?

Why don't you want him answer it? It's not a trick question. I'm curious what he thinks.

[Tywin Lannister]

@LUV: He says he has a similar playstyle to me, that may be why he said "it's Gamma".

Really? I don't connect those dots. I'm not sure how they relate at all. Regardless, you're okay with him attaching to your hip all game long? What if he flips scum?

[Tywin Lannister]

@LUV: He says he has a similar playstyle to me, that may be why he said "it's Gamma".

Really? I don't connect those dots. I'm not sure how they relate at all. Regardless, you're okay with him attaching to your hip all game long? What if he flips scum?

If he flips scum that means I'm town leading a scum. That's a heckuva deal to me.

He seems to have been leading you so far, and since you're voting me ur to his prodding, and I know I'm town, how is that a good deal? If I hypothetically did get lynched (or any townie really that grey led you to vote), and I flip town for all to see, wouldn't that not be such a good deal? I'm pretty sure that would implicate you in either scenerio (townie flip for vote he led you to, or him flipping scum). I'm not following your logic.

[Tywin Lannister]

UNVOTE:

Can't lynch a claim without a counter, at least D1. Will reevaluate.

[Tywin Lannister]

Okay so now that my previous top scum is off the board, can someone explain to me the overall consensus on why Keyan is scum? What's the overall basis for the case?

[Tywin Lannister]

Keyen, Keyan. Tomato tamato. Potato potato

[Tywin Lannister]

Here's my one issue with Keyen. Absolutely everyone has been more than adamant/willing to lynch him without question. Not a single person besides me has really even questioned it, and I know I'm town. That means scum most likely are all aboard the Keyen wagon, and that's where it makes me not like it. Keyen just seems like the 'easiest' option, but that doesn't make him town or scum. Regardless, scum love easy lynches that nobody questions. It gives no information if Keyen flips town, because absolutely all of you were eager to join his wagon.

So I really want to hear what the case is on Keyen, and I hope the rest of you question the votes on him as well and pressure everyone to explain their reasons before he (probably) inevitably gets lynched. If he does flip town, then I want something useful out of it. At the moment, scum can just play 'everyone was on it!' and have zero explaining or suspicion.

[Tywin Lannister]

I realize not everyone is or will vote Keyen, but it's been the easy, quick lynch target since page 1. So if he flips town, I want it transparent as to why everyone thinks he's scum and/or votes him over similar players like Dave/etc. Easy =\= good in most cases IMO.

[Tywin Lannister]

I'm a bodyguard.

I remember in a previous game (on another forum), I was scum in a Hollywood-themed role madness game with 30+ people in it. I won as scum claiming Kevin Costnar - Elite Bodyguard. I'm not saying you're lying, but I thought it was interesting enough to share. It was the easiest role to claim and get away with.

[Tywin Lannister]

Actually, I take it back. I wasn't scum, but cult leader. I was Tom Cruise - Scientology Leader.

[Tywin Lannister]

Hm. Interesting story there Tywin.
...by which I mean that's pretty scummy.

How is it scummy? Lol, you can't throw around the word to fit whatever you want. I'm sharing a story, and you consider that scummy? Okay then. Enjoy your bad reads. You'll find out eventually one way or another.

[Tywin Lannister]

Hm. Interesting story there Tywin.
...by which I mean that's pretty scummy.

How is it scummy? Lol, you can't throw around the word to fit whatever you want. I'm sharing a story, and you consider that scummy? Okay then. Enjoy your bad reads. You'll find out eventually one way or another.

It looks like shade throwing. You don't state an actual stance, you just give an anecdote.

Shade throwing? It's just a story. I don't have an actual stance on whether grey is fake claiming or not. It frankly doesn't matter rn anyway. I just was reminded of when I claimed bodyguard in a past game while not town-aligned. It is relevant in that I believe bodyguard is an easy claim to fake, but I'm not trying to get grey lynched right now.

What is odd to me is that you look at my story, one I didn't have to bring up at all, and again you claim it to somehow be AI. You did the same when I pointed out that TwoFace lied. Funny enough, I believe Kyou came and proved it again after the fight was over. You took that opportunity to vote me for literally proving TwoFace lied about something. That was your scum read. It seemed awfully fishy and still does.

What I find extremely interesting is if grey is indeed a bodyguard, then you as scum of course would love him sheeping you. You also clearly let him lead you to a vote on me without any pushback. You didn't even question it or provide a reason why. That's awesome for scum Gamma, because you'd have an out on why you tried to lynch a townie (me) by being led by another townie (grey). Aside from that, when I asked you if it bothered you that grey was attaching himself to you, you clearly stated that no, you were very happy to have him do that. That's definitely something scum would love, but a skeptical townie would not.

Aside from that, no votes from you have ever had any conviction or real reason behind them. You've vote switched a ton of times, and every vote was useless in that you had no reasoning behind it. You weren't pushing for any lynches, and you aren't scum hunting whatsoever. You've only thrown doubt on other players, but do not ask questions in any attempt to find scum. Why? Is it because you already know they're all town?

I find that if grey isn't scum, the probability of you being scum is much, much higher.

[Tywin Lannister]

But I digress, I don't see you as today's lynch Gamma. My guess is it will be Keyen or Dave, the two easy lynchbait candidates. I'm still waiting on someone to give their case on Keyen though.

TwoFace, care to share your case on why Keyen is scum? You've been asking to lynch him all day, and I think you've been the hardest pusher for a Keyen wagon. You also linked me to him, so I'm guessing you're pretty positive (as far as you can be on D1) about him being scum. Could you give the case for it? I honestly don't follow the logic, at least not when there's Dave doing the same things. Why is Dave only a useless townie, but Keyen is scum? I don't think you've ever answered this.

[Tywin Lannister]

Not a single person besides me has really even questioned it

you must forget i exist this game

Sorry! Recency bias maybe. Ok, two people have questioned the key wagon. All I want is anyone to give their case on him. It's not asking for much. This is basic stuff. They should be able to, and if they're sheeping, then the leader needs to explain the case the rest are sheeping.

[Tywin Lannister]

I can explain the Dave case at least. Dave has posted all fluff/trash for the majority of his participation. He did answer my questions, but he ignored gerryoats' for some unknown reason. He ignored Rask's earlier questions as well, and I may be forgetting a few. He hasn't posted any reads, because he claimed all are null, but when pushed he did say grey (and key I believe, but I'm on phone so not positive). Regardless, he hasn't asked questions or scum hunted anyone by default. It could be a case of being unfamiliar with forum Mafia, but I'd assume he'd still try to participate when he was told how this works.

So basically, the Dave case boils down to him being 'useless,' which he agreed with when I asked his thoughts on that. His avoidance of answering questions looks scummy, and his lack of scum hunts does as well. He does continue to post, so he's not lurking in the strictest sense, but he's added nothing to help town. By definition, his play as been anti-town.

Wanna add anything to this Gerry?

[Tywin Lannister]

TwoFace: why is Dave lynchbait but key isn't? That's the question I've been wondering this whole time.

[Tywin Lannister]

So he's bad but you can't tell the difference if it's bad town or bad scum.

That's a policy lynch.

I'll pass

Then explain the case on Keyen. I see him exactly the way you see Dave apparently. You're policy lynching Keyen for doing what exactly? You really think a quick wagon that started on like page 2 and filled up fast was/still legitimate?

I keep asking this question over and over and you keep avoiding it. What is the case on Keyen?

[Tywin Lannister]

Why do people keep voting key? And why aren't more people voting PsychoticDave. -Grey- idk if you're new or anything, but you shouldn't have claimed right away like that, you weren't even on L-1 yet.

I think key is scum. I feel Dave is a policy lynch. He's lynchbait

This isn't a case. Explain WHY you think Keyen is scum. It is scummy of you to not be transparent with it. It's D1 so you have no legitimate excuse to avoid the question.

[Tywin Lannister]

Looks like it's a slow night. Nobody really talking. Maybe it'll pick up tomorrow

Fair enough. Will check back tomorrow. No rush.

[Tywin Lannister]

what is the point of this post

Cause Tywin doesn't like the keyen lynch cause he's nervous about it being too easy of a lynch which is often an indicator that it's a mislych. I'm showing how that isn't necessarily the case here.

Makes sense. I didn't look at it from the perspective you gave. TF has given a few fair points as well about key. Still catching up after skimming a bit, but will check out key more.

[Tywin Lannister]

Wall post incoming, so I'll put it in a spoiler tag. Guess I could do a tl;dr of it too.

Spoiler:

I like Rask's scum list. It aligns with my general reads so far. I've been suspicious of Gamma for a while now. I haven't been paying much attention to gear, but I don't have a town read on him from what I have seen. Idk about grey anymore after the claim, but i don't think it matters right now. If he's scum, then he will get lynched eventually regardless. That may be why he lost interest and wants out. It isn't like he has much chance to survive RN regardless of alignment.

As for the rest in that second tier, I largely have neutral reads on most of them. I've gotten more townie vibes from lil Uzi than anything, but it isn't nearly as strong as I do from Jar Jar, Rask, and TF. I've also gotten them from Kyou.


Now that I see key's post 222 again, I like it even less. I'm the only 'real town' read he has, which probably came from questioning his wagon. I don't like Gamma in the 'leaning town' read. I don't have a real read on vij yet (need to ISO him, gear, and key I think), and my townie read of Kyou may be due to the 'Tywin was right about TF' post, so it's inherently biased on my part.

I really don't like Rask/TF in the 'leaning scum' section. I find myself nodding my head at the majority of Rask's posts this game, and while I disagree with TF on semantics here and there, he reads as an aggressive town. I can't say I've never played/posted the way he has, and I've always done it as town. Scum just play more careful in my experience, while town with nothing to lose are usually the hyper-aggressive ones like TF is playing. Dave is whatever to me. Now that I see people post key's quotes (plus JJD's perspective on key's wagon/possible scbuddies), I can see how key is the scummier player.

Idk about Gear in the 'definite scum' list, but I really don't like JJD there. His posts have been townie and have largely moved the game forward. At the least, they're far more helpful to town than any combination of key/gear/Dave/Gamma/grey.


Sorry for wall, but basically, I'm okay with a key lynch, especially after his latest posts. He really hasn't scum hunted as TF pointed out, and mainly it's been a lot of whining/flailing (no offense key). My main concern was the early wagon gaining traction so quickly, but I agree with JJD's points in how I could be looking at it wrong. If I dismiss that one concern, key does look like flailing scum. There aren't any real pro-town posts from him as far as I've seen.

Tl;dr: I like Rask's scum list. I really dislike key's post 222 read list. I agree with the points JJD/TF have recently made. Probably will vote key after I reread a few players I've not been paying much attention to, key included. My top townies agree that key is probable scum, and I don't disagree with that perspective anymore. I'm not 100% sold, but if we won't be lynching Gamma, I'll go with key. Would prefer Gamma though, at least at this juncture.

[Tywin Lannister]

i could see keyen, grey, uzi scum team actually.

Are they all newer players? They really read like they are due to the (mostly) unhelpful-to-town posts. I'd expect their play from newbie games maybe, but if they're experienced, then I'd be inclined to agree. It does seem off-base in that they'd be the easiest set to lynch by far if you added Dave to it. I have a hard time believing they're all scum due to that. It seems like an overly weak scum team.

[Tywin Lannister]

What about a Gear/Vij/keyen team? Could swap vij out for Grey/Gamma, but I'm rereading and seeing connections between those three. Will update soon. I have today off work so have time for this.

[Tywin Lannister]

Ok Gamma it's good you're sharing now, especially if you have an opinion on leading wagon voicing that.

My concern now though is you were pretty nonchalant up until I asked you and then sprung to life with the superfast iso and team judgement after I asked what you thought of keyen wagon. In other words you didn't seem interested in what was going on until you felt eyes on you.

If you think jarjar/gear are both scum off this you should look at everything they did and give more analysis on it.

I'm still rereading, but I wanted to show post 272 from Rask. I agree with this and can legitimately say I feel like this is how Gamma has played the entire game now. So much like. Much wow. +1

[Tywin Lannister]

If yall would choose who to lynch then Dave is much more good than between me and gamma.

Key has been going after Dave this entire time it seems. He's only offered the easiest 'counter-target' on who to lynch over him and Gamma. He hasn't scum hunted anyone and his only play continues to be 'but.. But.. Dave!' He doesn't even call Dave scum. It's just another target that isn't him.

[Tywin Lannister]

Still rereading, but the more I do, the more I'm good with a key lynch. Seems maybe I wasn't paying close enough attention.

Looks like Dave's vote put key at L-2 so...

VOTE: keyen. L-1.

Can claim now key.

[Tywin Lannister]

I may be wrong about Gamma. Pages 20-21 show Gamma questioning -grey- on basically calling him conf town. -grey-'s response is 'I identify with his playstyle, so I'm sheeping the town read.'

My thought is they can't both be scum, since that would be bad play IMO, and I don't see either as bad players. Gamma may well be town, and scum -grey- knew it, so it explains how he's so confident in that town read. Grey led Gamma to vote me at the time (more or less), then hopped on right after. I know I'm town, so grey pushing for Gamma to vote me would make sense from scum's perspective. Him 'sheeping' a townie lynch would possibly clear him and implicate Gamma at the same time. The only reason it didn't work was due to questioning by Rask/Gerry/etc. grey couldn't legitimately explain either why he was so confident in his town read of Gamma or why he thought I was scum. After he got called out and voted, he claimed bodyguard and then asks for replacement.

So I may need to rethink the Gamma read. Doesn't really matter today, but it will be worth investigating after the key lynch.

Due to that, I think my scum list remains at key/gear/vij with grey/gamma thrown in there somewhere.

[Tywin Lannister]

What does scum motivation even mean outside of 'win the game by lynching townies?' I really don't understand this 'scum motivation' thing you keep throwing around.

Scum motivation: don't get lynched
Scum motivation: get townies lynched
Scum motivation: get townies to lynch townies

What other motivation is there?
Can you break down any example of a different motivation? I can't.

[Tywin Lannister]

I'm saying there's nothing only scum do. I want to know what about what keyen is doing makes it more likely to come from scum than town.

What is Keyen doing that makes him more likely to be town than scum?

What are you expecting D1 though? Scum to give up and say 'caught me?' I don't really get what you want or expect here.

[Tywin Lannister]

@Gamma: have you seen anything in the game that is more likely to come from scum than town? You posed the question about Keyen, so what about everyone else? My original pick for that was grey, which I explained why, but we can't lynch his claim RN. So anyone else? You clearly didn't see grey as scum, so who do you have in your scum list?

[Tywin Lannister]

Lol wtf is going on in this game. Key keeps my vote. The guy literally claimed scum and then tried to renig after. There's no way you can keep him alive, especially with that 'scum list' of his. He then tries to get someone mod killed/replaced out of spite. What a joke. Call it a policy lynch if you somehow believe he isn't scum at this point, but I'm sticking with it now. He's just bad for town no matter what you believe.

Idk what Gamma: what are you thinking? Key claimed scum and you call it a total town-read? Even if you believe that, do you want that guy around during Lylo? Look at his scum list lol. If he somehow did flip VT, id say he's a plus for scum as a pure distraction at this point. I mean wow. What a meltdown. He also seems to want to get others in trouble outside of the game as if that's cool, plus the name calling. Key needs to go. You'll gain no townie points from me defending those series of posts.

[Tywin Lannister]

2face, Rask, Tywin are all strong townreads that should never be lynched.

i agree with this pool. i wouldn't call it strong, but i think they are town. also i need explanation from tywin for the vote on key

I made a wall post plus a reread. Look there. Not gonna type it again, and I'm certainly not switching after he claimed scum.

[Tywin Lannister]

Key is a mislynch

How so? He claimed scum. Then backed off. Explain.

[Tywin Lannister]

If he's a mislynch, then who is scum? We can't keep putting everyone on L1 til they claim and then back off. Mine as well mass claim then. So pick your scum, but realize it isn't me. Hope you have a backup plan.

[Tywin Lannister]

Well if key is town, then I'm not sure where to go from here. Gear still seems scummy, but he's V/LA for the next few days. Need some new perspective, because I'm frankly not able to get a new one right now after grey/key both fail. They were my top scum candidates before and after rereading.

[Tywin Lannister]

2F, if I flipped town, Keep an eye on Tywin.

Haha pretty sure if you flip scum I have TwoFace keeping an eye on me. So it looks like an eye will be kept on me regardless.

[Tywin Lannister]

We need other options if you aren't the lynch. Grey was my pick, but he claimed bodyguard obv.

[Tywin Lannister]

We need other options if you aren't the lynch. Grey was my pick, but he claimed bodyguard obv.

I couldn't trust the claim. But for me, Dave is much more better than me.

You've said this all game. He's been your only lynch target at all, and it's always been just 'Dave is worse.' It doesn't explain why, and you don't even claim to think he's scum. You're just wanting it to be anyone but you. While I understand that, you aren't giving any real scum reads. You're ignoring a lot of players and call the most town ones scum. Even after all that, you continue to say Dave, even though you've never actually called him scum like you have me, Rask, JJD, etc.

[Tywin Lannister]

Here's a thought key: if you are town, expect to be lynched and give town something to work with after the fact. Obv if you're scum, it won't matter, but as town, you can still win regardless of being lynched or not. The important thing is to give a few actual scum reads and explain why with your best ability.

If I was in your shoes, and assuming you're town for this hypothetical, I'd be pissed off too. The thing is, rational me (which I can't claim would be the case if I was being lynched/attacked falsely, so it's hyperbole here) would still try to give something for town to look at afterwards. Your current list and lack of reasoning just looks bad.

[Tywin Lannister]

@Tywin: anything left to say, because I'm hammering soon.

Give him a little bit to give reads at least. I don't see a reason to rush it in the extreme off-chance he is a VT. I don't really believe that, but there's always the chance. Other players may want to weigh in too. I'm not going to tell you not to hammer though. I'm voting him still clearly.

[Tywin Lannister]

keyen has left the building

Well then go for it. Who knows if he would've even acknowledged my request, and I'm fine with moving the game forward. I figured he'd stick around at least to write another post, but apparently not if he already logged.

The few players I can think of that had objections to this wagon was Gerryoats, vij maybe, you somewhat. Gerry posted earlier throwing shade on me for switching my stance on Keyen, but didn't exactly give another target. He's still all for the Dave wagon, which isn't going to happen today. Key wants Dave too, but only due to it being someone other than him, not due to a scum read. Vij asked for replacement as far as I know, so unless you can think of anyone that's against the key wagon, I see no reason to wait now.

[Tywin Lannister]

VOTE: -grey-

[Tywin Lannister]

Just wanna say my strong townread on 2face is downgraded to a slight town lean.

I don't scumread him or anything but I feel like he never really wanted grey lynched.

He's still town IMO. Grey got outed with the fake claim by Doctor dying, but it was still possible to be real at the time.

As a side note, everyone but grey on the key wagon looks town. I'd say our scum are the ones either not voting or on a wagon that had no chance to succeed. Town should look there in the future after grey's lynch.

[Tywin Lannister]

Also, two NK's? Vigilante? Is SK a commonly used role on these forums? If so, there may be one.

[Tywin Lannister]

Will check my notes in a sec, almost home, but I don't think he was obviously not scum from memory

Who? Rask? He was my strongest town read by far. I'm pretty sure others can attest the same. It wouldn't surprise me if that's why Rask was NKed.

If you're talking about -grey-, then Idk. I was the first to vote/go after him yesterday, but he got run up pretty fast by the obvious townies.

The people im most suspicious of at this point are those who didn't vote or were on other wagons other than key's. Mainly: Gear/HavingFitz/etc. I'd say my top scum read after -grey- is lynched is Gear.

[Tywin Lannister]

and your 180 on keyen was definitely suspicious

The same can be said about your hard push on him to be lynched. Regardless, I see all townies on the key wagon except grey. Also, my push on grey wasn't 'weak' unless you compare it to your hard push on key. Grey didn't have a push on me, because he stated clearly it was a 'sheep' vote. He didn't actually think I was scum.

[Tywin Lannister]

I'f ssbm flips scum at some point I'd probably consider Gear cleared.

Who tops your scum list at this point aside from grey?