STEVEN UNIVERSE 2 - GAME OVER

[grapes]

Like to the point where he should quit mafia.

[grapes]

"But they were so town in the hood where they can suck my dick without fear of pissing anyone else off"

-Most of the scum and bad town this game

[Randomnamechange]

Like could random be scum?

Those last 2 posts were fucking bad.

the first one was because there were genuinely false statements in there.
I have other reasons for townreading him as well. I tend to read off of gut in Varsoon games and leave mechanics to other people (see bloodborne as for why) and this genuinely seems like RR is town to me. I had a town read on him out of the hood, but his mechanical talks with me in the hood seemed really town motivated.

[Randomnamechange]

"But they were so town in the hood where they can suck my dick without fear of pissing anyone else off"

-Most of the scum and bad town this game

it wasn't that they were sucking my dick at all. They genuinely seemed interested in gamesolving.

[grapes]

Even if you're pocketed by rr why me over almost? Or fuzzy who you've acknowledged is only trying to take vig shots that go against the wishes of confirmed town?

Let's not phone it in at the homestretch.

[grapes]

Read my posts.

[grapes]

Random you have such a slappable avatar rn.

[grapes]

I'm wasting my breath actually.

bbl

[Randomnamechange]

Even if you're pocketed by rr why me over almost? Or fuzzy who you've acknowledged is only trying to take vig shots that go against the wishes of confirmed town?

Let's not phone it in at the homestretch.

seems to be you or him today. I don't see almost doing what he has done as scum. He can play a very nasty scum game and I don't think he would've gone for the panic save on shadow. I still don't trust tfl at all but idk if i can push that through today.

[Almost50]

Let me try to predict the course of the game. Currently both RR & grapes are at 3 votes (L-2). Next up; MoI will come to vote RR. Shiro will hammer. RR will flip Town. TFL's shot will fail, and he is the likely NK. I get lynched tomorrow, and Mastina is NK's at night. Game over. Scum team of Cakez, Sky, Shadow, TWIE, grapes, Shiro & DGB win. And if that happens then my greatest regards to Shiro for doing exactly the opposite of what I would have expected Scum!Shiro to do when he stopped pushing me on D1 (although he thought I was Jenney Pizza not Buck Dewey).

I do sincerely hope that I'm wrong and that grapes is the one and only scum still alive, but his own posts give me the weird feeling that I was right and that there are TWO scums alive, not just one.

While we (myself, random, TFL and RR) are trying to narrow it down to a more precise lynch pool; grapes is throwing shade on everyone not confirmed, and then on random (who IS confirmed) too.

grapes: RR is OMGUSing.
grapes: Why me over Almost
grapes: TFL is trying to go against the will of conf!Town
grapes: Could random be scum?

The only one he didn't throw shade on (apart from Mastina & MoI) is Shiro, and this is for an obvious reason. If there is one scum remaining then Shiro IS clear, and since both Mastina and MoI do believe it's one more lynch to go then mud slinging Shiro would back fire on grapes.

The thing is lynching grapes today either ends the game in a Town victory or confirms there IS another scumster alive, thus bringing Shiro back to the lynch pool. There is no doubt in my mind now that grapes will flip red. He is accusing RR of flailing when all I see is grapes is the one flailing hard trying to pin it on anyone he can.

TFL IS TOWN. He proved it with the farside shot. RR slot IS TOWN. They've been doing the effort and harder than anyone else I might add. (Mastina was invested earlier but has stopped thinking/reevaluating as of late, and Titus did what she could by got NK'd early).

I know I'm Town and don't need to prove it anymore. Mastina was mod-confirmed to Yume, and both Gems are confirmed to each other as well as having been confirmed to the other Gems too.

This leaves us with grapes and Shiro (not an OR though). Shiro was bubbled yesterday, so cannot be the "only" scumster alive. So it is either grapes, OR grapes AND Shiro.

[Almost50]

inb4 someone asks how TFL's shot could fail. He's not allied with me and we're not in Season Finale. He could be either blocked or -worse- redirected. If the latter then all scum would need is to mislynch tomorrow. So one of myself/TFL dies tonight (to the scum kill) and one of Mastina/myself die to the redirected TFL shot, then the mislynch is on the living one of myself/TFL and it's Game Over.

[Randomnamechange]

TFL still could be scum, but I don't think that he is. Right now my thoughts are
(grapes)
(tfl)
(almost)
(RR)
(mastin)
(me, moi, shiro)
assuming one scum left.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So here is where I am with players and what I think about them –

Mastin and Random – I know Random is Crystal Gem and thus confirmed not-Scum to me. Yume says that Mastin is Confirmed Town via their PT so Mastin is confirmed not-Scum to me. So both are off the board.

Fuzzy – despite the pants-on-head shot I think the Farside shot confirms Fuzzy as not scum. I was not offered the chance to bubble Farside (similar to other unblockable kills like Yume and Skybird). Thus the kill on confirmed Town Farside was not the scum factional kill (which to my understanding should not be affected by Almost’s “your abilities can’t fail” Alliance ability). But a quick Mod question should clear that up for certain.

@MOD – the Mafia factional kill does not count as a player ability for purposes of Almost’s Alliance ability to make alliance members’ abilities always succeed correct?

Unless Varsoon refutes this Fuzzy isn’t getting lynched.

Shiro – The only way Shiro is scum is if there is a second living scum. That player HAS to be a Leftover who could join the Mafia team. So until the point that a Leftover flips with Mafia affiliation Shiro is Town.

Grapes – Speaking of Leftovers – Grapes is the only player that could be. He basically claimed Lapis to me in our PT. Lapis does make thematic sense as scum who could join the scum team in a passive way. And the lack of scum kill last Night may indicate that Lapis lacks the ability to make the scum factional kill. I’m more considering this based of 11540 as an answer to “why do you think there are two scum left”. Also the AtE and insults in 11573 and 11574 are pretty bad.

Almost50 – Almost coming into the day was my first choice for lynch given the way yesterday played out. His scum team from yesterday (Fuzzy / Shadow / Farside) is bused with Farside’s flip and the fact he was working his tail off to prevent a lynch on scum Shadow (which would probably have fallen on farside who is confirmed Town) is very suspect. Today his theory shifts to Shiro / Grapes without even batting an eye about how poorly his play yesterday reflects on his possible alignment to any outsiders.

Reasonably Rational (Cerberus v666 + Drixx) – I’ve said over and over I suspect RR. I agree with Mastin that they appear to have prioritized pushing suspected 3rd Parties over scum at least since I replaced in. And their reaction to being suspected (early on with me was what triggered this for me) still sits in my gut as more scum motivated play than Town. Of course they both could be just that egotistical. I don’t have really any direct experience with either head to know for certain. Also the Sir Cakez wagon lacks scum votes which reflects poorly on their slot (but less poorly with the possibility of grapes / Shiro).

@Fuzzy

– why are you talking about shooting tonight? My understanding is that ability was a single shot that was refunded on Season Finale. Based on what everyone has said about that mechanic your shot from last Night should NOT have been refunded. Am I incorrect on any of these points?

--

Is Grapes Lapis......and did she tell you that or do you have proof she is???????'

I asked grapes in our PT and he confirmed. Given that is the only flavor that stands any chance of being a recruitable Leftover I see no reason for him to lie about it.

--

Either that or lynch ME, and then I will get to call you names at my own will in the dead thread. (This is @ Mastina and MoI, who still can't read. Who THE FUCK said Shadow should not be lynched bc farside flipped green?? After the fiasco of Exposition 8 and you literally not being able to comprehend a single word of our PT you come back here and AGAIN misrep what I said. You should pursue a career in politics, I tell you. Only a politician can live with so much false propaganda.)

You really aren’t in a position to make threats Almost. There are three confirmed Town who will do what we collectively think is best and this little temper tantrum matters not a bit.

So clarify for me again – is Fuzzy scum to you now? Given your “Shiro / Grapes” stance it does not appear to be the case. If not then the only fiasco for Expo 8 was you trying to not get scum Shadow lynched because you were fearful of a “Scum Unblockable Vig”.

Btw, MoI has yet to apologize or even comment on my response to his FALSE, SILLY & STUPID case against me towards the end of the previous Exposition phase.

Yup I haven’t. So what? Frankly I will eventually go back and look at your comments but that’s not my priority right this second. I’m more interested in lynching Mafia scum than making your ego feel better if you end up being Town. Cavalier attitude I know but my position in the game dictates that right now.

It took Varsoon a whole day to get back to me with a result to begin with, so no I didn't bother asking him what it meant.

If you are Town this is a stupid reason not to ask for clarification BTW.

--

It turns out our concerns were just paranoia, but they were absolutely justified.

No, actually the flip proves that the paranoia was absolutely not justified. But at this stage I know you aren’t going to ever see that if you aren’t scum. And if you are scum no reason for you to say it wasn’t justified.

[Varsoon]

@MOD – the Mafia factional kill does not count as a player ability for purposes of Almost’s Alliance ability to make alliance members’ abilities always succeed correct?

I can only discuss roles and abilities that have been made public to the game.

I can not talk about roles/abilities that may or may not exist on any other player's role card, as confirming or deconfirming that sort of information would break moderator rules and standards.
If you have a question about your own role or any other non-public mechanic, PM me.

[grapes]

@Almost

I've been obvtown all game. Twie either didn't really think confirming that would mean anything, or thought you all would drown in wine over it. Look what happened.

So you're saying Scum!TWIE confirmed Sky being Scum for shits and giggles?

Sky was already dead at that point.

Don't ignore a man who's trying to have a conversation with you.
Now, I was gonna ignore this as you just forgetting how shit went down or not reading. (it's a big game)

But you dropping that point and then moving on to exponentially weaker ones is making me scratch my head here.

I'm not the one flailing here. I was trying to get random to realize just how bad his play has been but he literally doesn't care. Done talking to him.
Your tunnel on me came out of left field

You need to get with varsoon about why your wording was different. And tell me how anything RR has done since I dropped my case on them (or anything at all this game for that matter) looks town.

[grapes]

I'm caught up now. 11491 is a good post. mastin is making very good arguments as well but 11524 in particular is a must read.

Last day was pretty confusing. Almost went literally insane, I told fuzzy to vig rr and he didn't listen but to be fair I kinda thought almost was scummy for pushing fuzzy as sk (or whatever he was on about) which was forgivable if you were expecting a kill like I said but the extent he went with it was like... calm down man.

Didn't even know almost had an investigation ability?

@Almost

- What kind of results do you get and are they even useful at all?

Not quite sure how he wouldn't have gotten a result either.
Options here are he's lying (probably not) or he was roleblocked or he just hasn't heard back from varsoon yet.


Also got around to looking at some votecounts and we've all been missing something glaringly obvious.

Spoiler:

VOTECOUNT 1.01

Reasonably Rational (2):

grapes, Firebringer

Creature (2):

Obi-Wan Kenobi, Xkfyu

Not Voting (21):

Klingoncelt, SirCakez, Foxbird, Skybird, Almost50, Shiro, DrippingGoofball, Farside22, Yume, CooLDoG, Reasonably Rational, mastin2, Not Chara, Kraskaeaque, killthestory, McMenno, Seraphim, SnarkySnowman, Creature, randomidget, TheWayItEnds

With 25 Alive, it takes 13 to Lynch.

Start out with a town-driven wagon on RR. This isn't rvs because fire and I both had scumreads on RR based on pregame content, my case was made later.

VOTECOUNT 1.02

Reasonably Rational (3):

grapes, Firebringer, McMenno

Creature (2):

Obi-Wan Kenobi, Xkfyu

Not Chara (2):

mastin2, Yume

Obi-Wan Kenobi (1):

Farside22

Farside22 (1):

SnarkySnowman

McMenno (1):

CooLDoG

Not Voting (15):

Klingoncelt, SirCakez, Foxbird, Skybird, Almost50, Shiro, DrippingGoofball, Reasonably Rational, Not Chara, Kraskaeaque, killthestory, Seraphim, Creature, randomidget, TheWayItEnds

With 25 Alive, it takes 13 to Lynch.

menno hops on, rr is still town driven. And a few mislead counterwagons.

VOTECOUNT 1.05

Not Chara (5):

mastin2, Yume, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Almost50, grapes

Reasonably Rational (3):

Firebringer, McMenno, DrippingGoofball

Obi-Wan Kenobi (1):

SirCakez

SirCakez (2):

Creature, Farside22

Creature (1):

Xkfyu

McMenno (1):

CooLDoG

SnarkySnowman (1):

Xkfyu (1):

Seraphim

Farside22 (1):

SnarkySnowman

grapes (1):

Not Chara

Not Voting (9):

Klingoncelt, Foxbird, Skybird, Shiro, Reasonably Rational, Kraskaeaque, killthestory, randomidget, TheWayItEnds

With 25 Alive, it takes 13 to Lynch.

This about where chara and I start an epic Tvt. Drippinggoofball sheeps my case and at this point it's still clean because she can only guess who her buds are.

VOTECOUNT 1.07

McMenno (5):

CooLDoG, Firebringer, SirCakez, Seraphim, Almost50

Not Chara (4):

grapes, Skybird, Yume, Obi-Wan Kenobi

Reasonably Rational (3):

McMenno, DrippingGoofball, Creature

SirCakez (2):

Not Chara, mastin2

Creature (1):

Xkfyu

Farside22 (1):

SnarkySnowman

Not Voting (9):

Klingoncelt, Foxbird, Shiro, Reasonably Rational, Kraskaeaque, killthestory, randomidget, TheWayItEnds, Farside22

With 25 Alive, it takes 13 to Lynch.

Two hefty-sized scum-sheeped counter-wagons on Earth-aligned players. Creature joins the rr wagon here still town-driven.

VOTECOUNT 1.09

Not Chara (6):

grapes, Skybird, Yume, Almost50, Kraskaeaque

Reasonably Rational (4):

McMenno, DrippingGoofball, mastin2, Farside22

McMenno (3):

CooLDoG, SirCakez, Seraphim

Klingoncelt (2):

Firebringer, Obi-Wan Kenobi

Almost50 (2):

Shiro, Creature

SirCakez (1):

Not Chara

Creature (1):

Xkfyu

Farside22 (1):

SnarkySnowman

Not Voting (6):

Klingoncelt, Foxbird, Reasonably Rational, killthestory, randomidget, TheWayItEnds

With 25 Alive, it takes 13 to Lynch.

mastin and farside join. No scum interest at all so far.

VOTECOUNT 1.12

SirCakez (7):

Not Chara, mastin2, Obi-Wan Kenobi, McMenno, Yume, grapes, Shiro

Shiro (4):

Farside22, Skybird, Almost50

Skybird (2):

killthestory, Creature

McMenno (2):

CooLDoG, Seraphim

Not Chara (1):

Kraskaeaque

Creature (1):

Xkfyu

Obi-Wan Kenobi (1):

SirCakez

Klingoncelt (1)

Firebringer

Farside22 (1):

SnarkySnowman

Not Voting (6):

Klingoncelt, Foxbird, Reasonably Rational, randomidget, TheWayItEnds, DrippingGoofball

With 25 Alive, it takes 13 to Lynch.

Fizzles out a few votecounts until here where it straight up disappears.

Now what's interesting about that isn't what you probably think, like that normally would lend some credence to scum aborting a bus but that falls apart when you read the tl;dr which is ...

All the traction on rr looks like this in total (from least to most opportunistic);
{grapes, firebringer, Mcmenno, DrippingGoofball, Creature, mastin2, farside22}
All Town.

Fucking spooky. Especially when you consider nobody really argued against the wagon except snarkysnowman might've had a tr there just off the top of my head but other than that the disappearance was town just moving onto lynch more obvious scum in sircakes.

The constituencies are remarkably similar besides shiro (who's now confirmed-town), Not chara (who had a scumread on RR) and Obi-wan (who would later become titus, someone that rr went out of their way to pocket)

It's the wagon that got away, and it makes perfect sense to have 2 heavily town-driven wagons on scum day one where town was driving the thread in absolution.

Let's check out Day 2 now.

VOTECOUNT 2.03

Reasonably Rational (6):

grapes, DrippingGoofball, McMenno, Yume, mastin2, Skybird

Shiro (2):

Creature, Farside22

Farside22 (2):

randomidget, Obi-Wan Kenobi

DrippingGoofball (1):

Klingoncelt

Twin Wings (1):

Kraskaeaque

Not Voting (11):

Twin Wings, Xkfyu, Almost50, Shiro, CooLDoG, Reasonably Rational, Not Chara, killthestory, TheFuzzylogic99, SnarkySnowman, TheWayItEnds

With 23 Alive, it takes 12 to Lynch.

Skybird.

What's interesting about skybird here?
It's the bus vote.

I think Mastin is worth sheeping.

VOTE: RR

It's the kinda vote you make when you're like "oh shit I totally ignored my buddy getting runup day 1 I need to make up for it now oh why oh why didn't all this interest go away!

OK, caught up a little more this morning but still on page 155.

I'm not seeing RR as scum so much. I originally sheeped Mastin because of Cakez, and she has posted that she doesn't want people doing that. My thoughts on it are that I do see some of the points people are making against them, but I also understand not addressing things in absolutes right now because the game is still pretty young. (Sorry if I'm not being clear, I'm going be late for work if I don't get out of here. I'll answer questions when I get home.)

UNVOTE: RR

And then to the part where she's like "oh awesome it's not gonna get anymore steam, let me just help kill the traction after scouting out the wagon for 600 posts.

I know right. Seems pretty obvious looking at it now.

RR hasn't scumhunted at all this game. (inb4 that's just our meta or we totally have! no, death tunneling farside and 11205 isn't what I would pass as gamesolving).

Kinda also don't really think almost is scum. Comparatively he thinks I could be scum here, and while as wrong (and flattering) as that is, it's better than the hydra who hasn't ever given a read on me this game unless it's to omgus. What's more, his logic that rr wouldn't be scum in a position to not ever win is flawed because this town kicks ass.



pedit: Almost the thing with TWIE confirming skybird shot me is wine from everyone else's perspective, nothing more and nothing less I haven't even acknowledged it because it means literally nothing and I'm not gonna flaunt about how I make perfect sense as the N1 kill because that's arrogant and there isn't really a need to.

Furthermore there's a lot to gain for RR advocating and then also

delaying

the farside vig. She wasn't in the lynchpool, it's a win for them as scum to have her die by town hands at any point.

VOTE: RR

Perfect example of scum sitting back and waiting for the tide to turn in their favor before magically showing up with a long post and lots of research to push their mislynch, just at the right time. Please don't be suckered by this obvious scumplay by Grapes.

Like for real. Lynch this scummy shit on the spot. Obviously pre-prepared post coming in just at the right time to push a mislynch and re-direct any suspicion. Scum play 101 by someone who has spent the whole game doing the same kind of thing.

VOTE: Grapes

Thanks for scumclaiming Grapes.

~Drixx

Explain how this response is anything but scum giving up. I'll wait.

[Reasonably Rational]

@MOI: A50's ability said any abilities could not fail. It did not specify whether that excluded factional abilities, and based on the verbiage used by the role PM's we've seen, I assume that means factional abilities were also empowered.

@grapes: What case? The wall of VCA? Neither head of this hydra respects VCA(because we know that any competent player can easily manipulate it), so I'm not certain what sort of response you expected from us. We tunneled farside because it was CLEAR to us that she had to be a malevolent third party, period, and we were fighting against two conftown who REFUSED to even consider lynching her. In addition, who exactly was there left for us to scumhunt? We concluded A50 was town on D4. We concluded Shiro was town sometime shortly after that. We concluded Fuzzy was probtown after he didn't take the kill on Snarky. That leaves you, but again, the entire fucking game's assumption that scum!TWIE+scum!Skybird deliberately AVOIDED the opportunity to generate wifom AND gain information about town actions by 1) Skybird choosing to submit her true actions, OR 2) Skybird submitting some other actions, and TWIE choosing to change her actions to her real ones...and that's without even including the fact that you're almost certainly lapis, and a leftover, and thus have no reason to care who wins at all, AND legitimately make sense as a "potential" scum slot to balance out the double digit number of slots who were never getting lynched.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

(Wholly unrelated, but I just realized that this game has surpassed Smite as having the most posts of any game on site.)

-Cerb

[grapes]

Grapes – Speaking of Leftovers – Grapes is the only player that could be. He basically claimed Lapis to me in our PT. Lapis does make thematic sense as scum who could join the scum team in a passive way. And the lack of scum kill last Night may indicate that Lapis lacks the ability to make the scum factional kill. I’m more considering this based of 11540 as an answer to “why do you think there are two scum left”. Also the AtE and insults in 11573 and 11574 are pretty bad.

You're a complete ass.

You know what's really shitty about the day before last is that I knew the only way for me to save creature and get shadow lynched was to convince you on shadow scum. I knew I couldn't convince you creature-town, so I spent my energy trying to wake the rest of the game up on that and sell you on shadow-scum with a case and you didn't EVEN RESPOND TO IT. UGHHHHHHHH

And I know like I've been busy and shit and that was a particular two weeks where I didn't have a lot of time to post BUT I FUCKINGTRIED.

I'VE BEEN ADVANCING A TOWN AGENDA WHILE RR HAS BEEN ADVANCING A SCUM AGENDA.

Your flavor spec is bad. How many traitors do you think this game is gonna have? We all signed up to play mafia not blindfolded darts.

I'm also not a very nice person when I'm getting voted for no good reason and if you don't know ...

I'm the AtE fucking CHAMPION.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MOI: A50's ability said any abilities could not fail. It did not specify whether that excluded factional abilities, and based on the verbiage used by the role PM's we've seen, I assume that means factional abilities were also empowered.

That's a pretty bad assumption that makes me wonder why you would just blindly assume such as opposed to asking like I did.

[grapes]

@MOI: A50's ability said any abilities could not fail. It did not specify whether that excluded factional abilities, and based on the verbiage used by the role PM's we've seen, I assume that means factional abilities were also empowered.

@grapes: What case?

1) Eat my socks.

It's a mixture of vca + the most obvious bus vote I've ever seen. You're only as good as your weakest link.

I could make a case on any of your scumposts. And have multiple times this game actually.


The most important question is though.
Why the fuck didn't scum want to lynch the self-proclaimed smartest players in the game? The traction was fucking there.

[Randomnamechange]

@Almost

I've been obvtown all game. Twie either didn't really think confirming that would mean anything, or thought you all would drown in wine over it. Look what happened.

So you're saying Scum!TWIE confirmed Sky being Scum for shits and giggles?

Sky was already dead at that point.

Don't ignore a man who's trying to have a conversation with you.
Now, I was gonna ignore this as you just forgetting how shit went down or not reading. (it's a big game)

But you dropping that point and then moving on to exponentially weaker ones is making me scratch my head here.

I'm not the one flailing here. I was trying to get random to realize just how bad his play has been but he literally doesn't care. Done talking to him.
Your tunnel on me came out of left field

You need to get with varsoon about why your wording was different. And tell me how anything RR has done since I dropped my case on them (or anything at all this game for that matter) looks town.

its almost like telling someone they should quit mafia will stop them from wanting to engage with you. Funny that.

[Shiro]

Am I the only one here that wants ftl dead?

[Randomnamechange]

Grapes – Speaking of Leftovers – Grapes is the only player that could be. He basically claimed Lapis to me in our PT. Lapis does make thematic sense as scum who could join the scum team in a passive way. And the lack of scum kill last Night may indicate that Lapis lacks the ability to make the scum factional kill. I’m more considering this based of 11540 as an answer to “why do you think there are two scum left”. Also the AtE and insults in 11573 and 11574 are pretty bad.

You're a complete ass.

You know what's really shitty about the day before last is that I knew the only way for me to save creature and get shadow lynched was to convince you on shadow scum. I knew I couldn't convince you creature-town, so I spent my energy trying to wake the rest of the game up on that and sell you on shadow-scum with a case and you didn't EVEN RESPOND TO IT. UGHHHHHHHH

And I know like I've been busy and shit and that was a particular two weeks where I didn't have a lot of time to post BUT I FUCKINGTRIED.

I'VE BEEN ADVANCING A TOWN AGENDA WHILE RR HAS BEEN ADVANCING A SCUM AGENDA.

Your flavor spec is bad. How many traitors do you think this game is gonna have? We all signed up to play mafia not blindfolded darts.

I'm also not a very nice person when I'm getting voted for no good reason and if you don't know ...

I'm the AtE fucking CHAMPION.

he has put more work into town's direction than any other player and we are in a rly good position so this doesn't really work.
I could make a case for MoI having a scum agenda here.
Players actions being able to be twisted to make them appear scum is not a good case in a game this mechanically complex at this point. Either there is clear scum motivation and no possible town motivation behind their actions or straight up confirmed mechanics. Otherwise it takes more than that.

[Randomnamechange]

Am I the only one here that wants ftl dead?

no. He's my second choice for scum rn. Grapes just seems scummier and although tfl's day play has been quite scummy, he has acted the way a town player should and mechanically he looks town. Grapes has acted scummy and makes sense for scum role wise