Mini Normal 1862 - Town win.

[Naomi-Tan]

Hey all GL and have fun

[Naomi-Tan]

Normally I do this a little later but im up and wanna talk and like keeping this at my second ISO post so. For those who know this post feel free to skip it yadda yadda.
Hi, I'm Naomi I have kinda a strange play style. Firstly Rather than calling people town or Scum I call them Green or Red This is because Its just a nicer thing to call people. I dislike calling people scum as its kinda mean so I switched to the color thing and it appears to have caught on rather well in other games I've been in. Thats not so major. but Its a good thing to note.

Okay so onto the bulk of stuff. My playstyle Is kinda weird. I don't like dying as either alignment and try to stay alive. this means that sometimes I do actions to just look more green and sometimes and Im suspectable to peer pressure. To midigate this I tend to play entirely openly and honestly examining things and doing what I can to contribute to town. But things like Lamist actions are things I tend to do as both alignments. If anyone wants to read my town meta feel free to explore my wiki page (ordered chronologically with my most recent games at the bottom of either list) But this is a quick overview to protect my butt from future Red efforts (as they can push me on; Look there doing that thing thats normally red but isn't for them) and so Greens don't push me for being me. I also am probably forgetting somethings. As i'm sleepy

[Naomi-Tan]

Speaking of LAMIST

@Mod Requesting 48 hour extension for Christmas and new years. I don't think its fair to have two days less to play for 99% of the playerbase.

[Naomi-Tan]

Mod, your text is 110% unreadable on mafSilv. Not sure if you're aware.
VOTE: alisae

PEDIT: UNVOTE:
VOTE: Naomi

So... You having played with me before... Are voting me for the same post I made in the last game where we was both in... colour me confused.

[Naomi-Tan]

@grey I have to strain my eyes to read the text on mafBlack. Black themes have always made it difficult for me.

@naomi Is that why you think I'm voting you?
Do you think there could be any reason for me to scumread you?

Nah I think your voting me cause its RVS XD

[Naomi-Tan]

@grey I have to strain my eyes to read the text on mafBlack. Black themes have always made it difficult for me.

@naomi Is that why you think I'm voting you?
Do you think there could be any reason for me to scumread you?

Nah I think your voting me cause its RVS XD

And the second question?

The second question... not really? I don't think anyone would have any reason to vote me byond my second post being my second post. though I think your going to drop a bomb shell here. or As I said before;

This post also feels like some kinda trap that I also feel that I may be stumbling blindly into for I do not get where your going with this, however before when you have done this kinda question and I tried not to answer it properly because it made me feel uneasy It made things worse so i'm taking the time to explain that I know your looking for a reaction here and if I'm red I can act as if im green and if im green I will say what I said so its very NAI in this matter i'm pointing this out because I am uneasy and I feel its important to explain it so you also know its NAI and can not read from it not because I don't want you to read from it but because I feel that if you read me badly from it. It would lead to more arguements and me holding my head. so please read what you will on my green answer response scripted or not. this statement is also WIFOM. your welcome.

[Naomi-Tan]

I don't have a bomb to drop. I'm just curious as to why you waited until prompted again to answer my second question, instead of just saying you didn't think I had any reason. Especially as somebody who is claiming to be playing very openly this game.

Gamma, what did you mean by 21? What were you trying to point out?

eeeeehh?? maybe?? I dunno. I have no idea why I only answered one question. might be because I was posting between hearthstone games and wasn't paying full attention.

[Naomi-Tan]

Naomi hasn't been playing for four years. She took a long hiatus. This is the game she was referring to.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68980
You are probably town.

I should prob add that to my start of game stuff..

[Naomi-Tan]

I will extend 48 hours if enough people vote for it.

I can switch to this colour if enough people vote for it.

So... everyone vote for it. No reason not to gain 2 more days for christmas and new years off XD

[Naomi-Tan]

What? Did the use of the word "ugly" become a scumtell?

See? His guilty scum mind confesses in his confusion!

Surprised by my quick deduction that he is scum, he questions how I caught him.

Grey used Confuse ray; Its super effective!

[Naomi-Tan]

Okay...So.. That last post.. Is a thing.. Well To answer your question pretty much hat I described. LAMIST is look at me i'm so town. You'll see a mixture of agressive and passive play style depending on whats happening.

Now back to your post. I find it rather strange that you spoke a lot about your red meta but didn't really touch upon your green meta and also think that your reaction to HS not wanting an extension felt a little forced.

I do however agree that there is no reason to NOT get an extension. Guys everyone
VOTE: Extension If we end the day before hand with a hammer all the better but more time Partically on D1 is going to be really handy especially given this day phase will cross the entire holiday week where people generally have less access or wish to spend more time with family. Don't think of this like we mustn't end till later more we have more time to talk if we need it.

[Naomi-Tan]

My walls are rare but a good size

[Naomi-Tan]

Quite a bit of activity. gonna catch up from Page 2 now Gonna head to bed after though :d So.. yeah BRB while I read into the thread :3

[Naomi-Tan]

Normally I do this a little later but im up and wanna talk and like keeping this at my second ISO post so. For those who know this post feel free to skip it yadda yadda.
Hi, I'm Naomi I have kinda a strange play style. Firstly Rather than calling people town or Scum I call them Green or Red This is because Its just a nicer thing to call people. I dislike calling people scum as its kinda mean so I switched to the color thing and it appears to have caught on rather well in other games I've been in. Thats not so major. but Its a good thing to note.

Okay so onto the bulk of stuff. My playstyle Is kinda weird. I don't like dying as either alignment and try to stay alive. this means that sometimes I do actions to just look more green and sometimes and Im suspectable to peer pressure. To midigate this I tend to play entirely openly and honestly examining things and doing what I can to contribute to town. But things like Lamist actions are things I tend to do as both alignments. If anyone wants to read my town meta feel free to explore my wiki page (ordered chronologically with my most recent games at the bottom of either list) But this is a quick overview to protect my butt from future Red efforts (as they can push me on; Look there doing that thing thats normally red but isn't for them) and so Greens don't push me for being me. I also am probably forgetting somethings. As i'm sleepy

One question --- Does making this post actually help you in any way?

Yes. It lets people know what to expect and helps me protect myself aganist reds pushing me for a miss lynch so its useful that way. also helps inform town onto what to expect saving foot work for those who are lazy. The way I see it you can either Believe it, NAI it or See it as an excuse setup for later, which it totally is as well. thats just kinda how its been. I normally get those who havn't played with me before fitting into the latter two while those who have palyed with me before fit into the former two (as they have experienced it) As It in no way hurts to share information and I provide sources for people to check out I feel its a good and helpful thing that those who are paranoida can backup. Even if it is NAI. An NAI post to explain some things you'll red read me for are NAI is useful to me

[Naomi-Tan]

54
Okay as someone who has access to my wiki why couldn't they look up other games. It is literally the second post In 90% of my games at this stage and I think all but the first game since my return It would be super easy to confirm this fact as a thing. Also as its an NAI statement why wouldn't you find someone pushing on it a bad thing.
56
Pretty Sure this is just an attempt to get out of RVS

[Naomi-Tan]

How do you know with such little experience on this site? I mean, experience != skill, but it's kinda hard you can already read a player based off a single post being only a month on the site.

As I quoted, she made the same kind of post on another game she played where she was town.

It was not posted as proof of her alignment, just to stop paranoid players from wasting time voting her over that wall because it's NAI.

My post seemed pretty self-explanatory, to me.

Huh guess I should of not talked about 54

[Naomi-Tan]

I will extend 48 hours if enough people vote for it.

I can switch to this colour if enough people vote for it.

I vote for an extension though I don't think we'll actually need it.

Why are you voting for something you don't think town needs?

VOTE: TwoFace

What the heck is this post... Look its very simple. Though we may not NEED it why would we pass it up. Its free and gives us more chat time.

[Naomi-Tan]

Gamma's reading scummy and Asphodel's opening post reads pretty horrible but I'll give asphodel some more time. The fact asphodel pretty much said 'Hey guys, if I bus my partner I'm town!' means any scum wagons they happen to be on are wifomy as fuck and NAI at best, remember this for later.

Grey reads kinda town.

VOTE: Gamma

Why would town want less time?
VOTE: Human Sequencer

Also I know you're not reading Gamma town now, but why were you in the first place and what made you change your mind?

I initially took Gamma's misunderstanding of Naomi and I's game history as misguided town, but it didn't hold up on closer inspection, and what he has posted since has just looked heaps worse. I'll make a case when it's relevant.

15 days is plenty of time. You can ask TwoFace and Naomi about the shitshow that was Mini 1848 and how that dragged to deadline D1 in a mess which promoted town apathy, or you could also read Newbie 1744 easily found on my wiki in which town self-destructed D1 by running around in circles with like three wagons all on town, ending up lynching a PR. I believe overly long day phases are anti-town. You might not agree, but it's NAI at best as I have pushed the same agenda in most of my games since, and I think I did the same in Mini 1848 and it got me scumread.

Banana man, why are you excited for this game in particular?

Spoiler: Bananas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb7DwuLFRjs

Hey can you talk more about this read? I don't understand it yet.

[Naomi-Tan]

PEDIT: the Gamma Read.

[Naomi-Tan]

Pedit2: Scumreads: Grey, Human Sequencer right now.

Yep, scum are ultra high vis buddying in the first three pages.

Top notch scumhunting.

Well this guy is obvs Town.

[Naomi-Tan]

I think the Gamma case is relevant right now. Now, please kindly share w/ the rest of the game as I don't see it.

Nah.

Pedit: It's neutral at worse, pro-town at best. Yes, stagnation is a problem and why deadlines exist, but a bigger problem imo are deadline lynch scrambles. You never know until that point, but I'd say it's better safe than sorry.

Yeah, but why do deadline lynch scrambles happen? Not because the game's day phase was too short, but because town was inactive and stagnated for the whole time.

I think last minute scrambles happen because all day one there is back and froths that normally help pin down reds later. The more back and frothing happens the easier it is to spot a GvG or a RvG I feel its pretty important but at the end of the day there always will be 1 or two wagons being pushed out and that leads to the scramble. inactivity is also a thing as the day goes on but people have lives and don't spend all day on here. normally it happens cause either life or lack of interest. But it can be the result of poor interactions and getting morally beaten down. Thats why I try not to get so emotional.. doesn't always work though XD

[Naomi-Tan]

Hi I'm around and want to talk to you three. If you had to lynch someone right now, who is it and why?

I'm not upto date yet. So I'll take a stab at this once I'm caught up.

[Naomi-Tan]

Sometimes that's the case, but other times, there truly is a lot to talk about and not enough time to do so. Having less time just makes the scramble occur earlier would is only marginally better at best and most if the time, neutral or even worse imo.

Pedit: Here's some stats for you: I've played 30 games recorded on my wiki page with 8 wins, 22 losses, 27% winrate. I have been town 87% of the time. (26 town, 2 scum, and 2 other). And, I am not undermining anything. Show how I am undermining the town's goal. If you are going to actively throw shade on me, please research me first and tell me if this behavior differs from other games I've played.

Pedit2: VOTE: Gray. Also, those posts were awful. Humor or not, still awful.

This post is literally a lot of numbers and I don't think It really matters about the numbers. I dunno why they didn't address gray directly here but I'm reading this as 'I know my reads are not great. but your humour is worse'

[Naomi-Tan]

VOTE: asohodel

I don't like how little thought he puts into trying to reach out to people. It sticks out like a sore thumb. Also somone pointed out some good contradictions in 195.

Grey is second on my scum list for being excessively obtuse with asliahe before giving a very meh explanation of his actions. His idea that we should town read him for bringing attention to himself is also a load of crap

Its called the slayer gambit.

[Naomi-Tan]

I will extend 48 hours if enough people vote for it.

I can switch to this colour if enough people vote for it.

I vote for an extension though I don't think we'll actually need it.

Why are you voting for something you don't think town needs?

VOTE: TwoFace

Well hello scum.

I voted cause why not. Just cause I'm optimistic about not needing it, it's stupid to not ask for it.

Sorry guys. I tried.

VOTE: all alone

You think thats red aligned? I thought It was just too bold for a red manuver.

[Naomi-Tan]

110 This really Reads TvT..

[Naomi-Tan]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68600
Just going to leave this here. Everyone should read up to page 5.

Sorry I do not read other posts about Meta had picked from a game selection as it can lead to meta manipulation. this is also why my source for self meta is my Wiki page with all my mafia games as You can't fake your meta in every matchup. If that makes sense.

I am making a read list along side my readup now To post so people know my reads.

[Naomi-Tan]

I know you're still reading through, but when you're done I'd appreciate an explanation of why you think 110 reads TvT, especially how it makes Grey look town.

It doesn't it makes Ircher Look town, but I'll post about it in my read list.

PEDIT; Ehh... maybe later. I heading to bed once I'm all done and don't really want to look into another 5 pages.

[Naomi-Tan]

Kay, caught up. My vote is going here.
VOTE: Asphodel

I don't like this Gamma wagon.

Why.

[Naomi-Tan]

Hey two face. You have anything to say about recent posts on this page.

[Naomi-Tan]

Current ideas for bad little townies are Grey, HS, and Alisae.

Can you explain more clearly what your saying by this I'm getting confused with your terminology.

[Naomi-Tan]

Hey two face. You have anything to say about recent posts on this page.

Aside from the posts I just made. No I don't.

Well you dropped slightly in my books. Was hoping to get a better read on you from this so I'll just give it to you cause I know you'll react the way you react and you handle this stuff rather better than me. here you go;

Compare;
131 to 236

[Naomi-Tan]

I haven't even got there yet. I'm on the end of page 3

Im somewhere in page 7.

[Naomi-Tan]

Likely Green

-Grey- >> They have had fairly well thought out points and also seem to be kinda relaxed. Comes off well in interactions and can explain there thought process well when questioned. Seems like a fairly good bet there town.

HS >> Reminds me of there play in the last game we was in where they was town. I think this style comes from an honest place and I'll give them some space while things work out.
This was enough to give me a slight read but the 'soft claim' post pushed it up just a bit higher this play is too famlier to not be them green.

Greenish

Ircher >> not too keen on the pressure they gave Grey. It seems pretty clear to me where Grey was going with the things he said and I don't think it required probing that deeply and it left a bad after taste.
As there talk contuined by 110 I was sure it was TvT Irchers case was mostly based on Joke votes and explaining obvious things as well as Grays joke wagon push. I don't think reds would done this and its only something a green would do Bad green most likely.

Alisae >> Feels like miss guided Green If I had to guess there the type of player that takes a little to form an idea but once its there it sticks for a while. This isn't a bad thing but I feel there pushes are miss guided and go on slightly longer than needed and I feel that they should revaluate more often.

All Alone >> So they did a big post but I'm not really able to follow it too good yet. I'm gonna have to read it with fresh eyes and see If I can follow it. Given during my read I picked up on the turn about im gonna go with the benafit of the doubt

Null

Flubbernugget >> I havn't formed an opinon on them yet sorry 229 could be read a little opertunistic, but there is so little to go on that I think It would be unfair to judge based on that one post. more indepth talking would be appricated.

Asphodel >> Sigh.. Right where do I stand here, There actions look Green motivated they are asking probing questions and trying to look into things but the manner there doing it in feels very unskilled. I'm not sure if this is a false lead but right now given where my red reads are I will benafit of the doubt them. If they are red I'm pretty sure they'll do something later that'll reavel them or a PR will investigate them (if such a PR exists) Etierh way I think given more time we will get a clearer picture here.

Rainbowdash >> No Posts yet

krylea >> No Posts yet

Redish

TwoFace >> Very weak read. Just from not noticing the reaction test thing I did. He finds 180's stupidly Red aligned. So its normally something he would take note of and I am surpised he didn't take note of it without me having to point it out. This read will likely change TF is hard to pin down this early in the game. Eh I guess its what ever.

Likely Red

Gamma Emerald >> I don't feel they are really playing Most of there posts are either joking or vague. It seems to me that there trying to stay active while not really saying much (active lurking) Also miss understood the humour which I think is pretty poor play.
I also dislike 140 Where they seem to push the counter wagon of grays. Given I shifted to a town read this could be looked as redirecting pressure.
I'm reading 163 as distancing. Its this distancing that pushed my GNT read down a little.

TheRealGin-N-Tonic >> 114 This is a limp ass defence attempt by GNT If It turns out Gamma is red then This is their partner.

[Naomi-Tan]

Shoot forgot;
VOTE: Gamma Emerald I think I'm gonna park a vote here right now as Its the person I feel is most likely to be Red.

[Naomi-Tan]

110 This really Reads TvT..

Disagree. Ircher is scum.

Just need to find the 3rd. This game is too easy

OK this may be a really dumb question but how do we know there are 3 scum? I mean, just from a game balance perspective that'd make sense but I'm going to feel really dumb if there's a role list somewhere that I'm missing.

3 Reds is the norm for normal mini's unless the reds have some crazy PR's

[Naomi-Tan]

Hey TF. Isn't it funny how we both have 2 people we think might be red and are looking for the third with no overlap xD

[Naomi-Tan]

TwoFace >> Very weak read. Just from not noticing the reaction test thing I did. He finds 180's stupidly Red aligned. So its normally something he would take note of and I am surpised he didn't take note of it without me having to point it out. This read will likely change TF is hard to pin down this early in the game. Eh I guess its what ever.

You did a reaction test?

Yeah kinda. It wasn't a very good one. I was trusting you to notice that between the two posts I linked in one they thought that Ircher was red then they one 180'd and acted like gray was the obvious red.

[Naomi-Tan]

Hey TF. Isn't it funny how we both have 2 people we think might be red and are looking for the third with no overlap xD

What does this mean?

It means I have a list of 2 reds with a missing 3rd who I can't identify and TF also has a list of 2 reds with a 3rd unID'd but between our two reds we both think we have neither of them are on the others list.

[Naomi-Tan]

Hey TF. Isn't it funny how we both have 2 people we think might be red and are looking for the third with no overlap xD

How's it funny?

Well you'd think that we'd have at least one in common we can agree on. Its just a bit unusual.

PEDIT; when presented or you spot a 180 you tend to attach to it for a bit as Green I was hoping to see that behaviour and put you into slight green range as its just a thing you do.

PEDIT2; My weak read on TF is just lack of talking and him over looking things I think with a bit of interaction I can figure him out. Me and TF played the last 3 games together and I feel I can read him by this stage. Its why I am tossing him bait actions to try and get my predicted results. Think of it like Meta-Fishing XD

[Naomi-Tan]

BTW Naomi do you think your weak scum read on TwoFace could come from him trying to be lynch bait or something?

Da fuck? To quote Samuel L.

Who the fuck is this asshole?

I'm not lynchbait nor am i trying to be lynch bait

TF your so VI

(Not really I am making an in joke from the last game we was in )

[Naomi-Tan]

Welp Naomi needs sleep. See ya in a few hours :3

[Naomi-Tan]

PEDIT; when presented or you spot a 180 you tend to attach to it for a bit as Green I was hoping to see that behaviour and put you into slight green range as its just a thing you do.

I didn't catch it until you pointed it out. I reread it twice and still didn't understand what you were trying to say.

URgh Im a sucker for conversation. Yeah I expected as much as said so in my list. but I still couldn't make a move on your alignment. What do you think of my two red reads and how there connected?

I'm gonna read your two reads and see how they connect tomorrow.

[Naomi-Tan]

VOTE: asohodel

I don't like how little thought he puts into trying to reach out to people. It sticks out like a sore thumb. Also somone pointed out some good contradictions in 195.

I feel like these should be reversed.

You're conflating thought with the number of posts in thread

My scum read becomes greater

you don't always need to be careful. I often post without thinking about it. only my bigger posts have more depth to them.

[Naomi-Tan]

299
Its taken trail and error I have to write it fresh each time and I slightly modify it each time.

[Naomi-Tan]

Qutie frankly I am calm, collected, and tired. Not freaking out. Press my buttons a bit and I can do that.

Either way, your voting is...I believe the right term is wishywashy?
VOTE: TheRealGin-N-Tonic

VOTE: Alisae
baah

I'm Still where I was in my last posts. and reactions like these just cement it for me.

[Naomi-Tan]

Okay don't attack him for his playstyle. You just set my scumdar off big time.

[Naomi-Tan]

Okay Gamma and Gin I wanna know what your connection is to each other right now here in the open.

Ah, game did start, got it :p

@work right now so I'll be on to talk in like 4 hours maybe 5.

Quick scim tells me we are doing a gamma wagon. Why is that?

I'm not seeing the type of discussion I want.
Maybe the inactives will provide.

This post reads scum to me. I don't really see a town motivation for counting on an inactive player to provide discussion. I mean, that's kind of the opposite of what "inactive" means! A townie who's frustrated with the discussion not going their way usually takes the initiative to provide that discussion themself, but Gamma doesn't. As scum hoping to hold back, his mindset here makes a lot more sense.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Nah it's town.

It's day 1 first few pages. It's evident, at least to me that Gamma doesn't care about the wagon on him, but instead is interested in the inactives, or those that will try to hide behind a bandwagon so they don't have to contribute much to the discussion.

GinNTonic could be a bad townie too.

Gamma you okay?

Whew, caught up. Okay reads and then questions

Reads:

Gamma scum butt$Most, if not all posts are highly frivolous and are just fluff. Post 119 is using self-meta as a form of defense and I won't read it because that's bullshit. Anyone can copy and paste a personality D1.

So You enter defending Gamma with rather limp reasoning. Gamma then distances himself from you. Taking the hint you back off and red read him despite spending the majority of the early game being on their side. This says to me there is 2 things going on 1) There is a connection between Gamma and Gin and 2) They don't want Greens to know there is a link going on.

Given the above quotes as well. the connection Is still strong despite them trying to distance.

[Naomi-Tan]

On gamma's side he defends your wagon and pushes it out more either OMGUS'ing or Chainsawing (im not sure if either of those are the correct term) To give Gins wagon more leverage.

[Naomi-Tan]

Naomi what does the interaction between me and gin tell you about the both of us?
Like, I dunno if Gin just really doesn't know how to handle pressure and he's townie because he seems genuinely frustrated or if he's scum.
Like, I think this might be his first game on site as well tho.

To me it looks like you fell into a red trap. They set you up by asking a leading question and then span that as fence sitting. But if you look at your play you can see the weakness's as well as the townie aspects of it. Its not explicitly bad to examine things carefully before voting (It took me till page 11 to vote) To say your fence sitting would be incorrect. You gave your thoughts on things as the game went on you just didn't vote. This to me says that You wasn't sure enough to vote. which is a Green trait as reds don't hesitate as much especially on people who are weaker players as they can shrug it off if they turn out to be proactive // good for greens

[Naomi-Tan]

Take Gamma's play. At first he doesn't really say much (during the RVS) then he switches to just saying; Good Green//Bad Green But he doesn't really given any reasons why there good or bad just that they are so. This leaves little wiggle room for inquiry and the only people who would really enquire would be the people in question which he could then turn on 'acting defensive' If you was a Green and you felt you had someone ID'd as Green or Red you'd say things like
[Topic]; Thats Bad Green Play
[Explain]; This is why is bad green play and not Red play
[Conclusion]; You shouldn't Vote X (this last part may be excluded in some cases)

This allows Green to see your thoughts. why you had those thoughts and question them later on down the road. Just a blanket X is bad Green. Helps no one and really the only reason you'd post that with so little backing it up is if you was kinda removed from the situation and didn't care about the flip result. If you really thought someone was just playing bad rather than being Red you'd step up and help defend them.

[Naomi-Tan]

Speaking of stepping up and defending someone

Alisae Isn't a Red
You can tell this by how flustered they are right now. They are lashing out at people who vote them without really thinking it fully through there emotional right now and trying there best to not be lynched ironically pushing more attention on themselves. If they live they will be shown as green later on I believe via play. Then there are things like her interaction with gray. Yes it was poorly executed but thats the point. If you was red looking for a Misslynch why target one of the strongest Green players instead of their investigative target that was already kinda melting. Additionally The way they put forth there wagon was super poorly coordinated and didn't really have the careful thought put into it that a wagon by an experianced player or a red member has. To Paraphase that interaction here is a small over the top rendition.

Gray; Eh been on this train long enough, its not going anywhere time to switch back.
Alisae; Define Long
Gray; urrrr... Its a word, Look it up in the dictionary its kinda common.
Alisae; ...Why you avoiding the question. Its a simple thing to answer
Gray; Its a common word. I don't really need to look things up in the dictionary for you do I?
Alisae; Well you could!.. (Blushes) Well.. It appears you miss understood.. What I REALLY wanted to know is What made you change your vote... Not that im embarrassed! shut up! You just don't like working with people. thats red!

You can see this tsundere Attitude at the end in 158 Its especally Explicit with the First and last lines; "Okay then you misunderstood the question" and "Also don't like the fact you're not willing to work with me. If anything you're being anti-town at the moment."
The first line establishes that They acknowledge that Gray didn't get the question and didn't want to look up a common word. while the last line shows how flustered there are about it. red reading them for there own poorly worded question while being embarrassed themselves.
After that point they convince themselves that Gray is Lynch baiting when its obvious to us that they was just playing normally. but to the world filter she applied it was Lynch baiting because she took note that Gray was kinda playing well. but also thought they was playing badly. the only time you play well and badly is with a slayer gambit or lynch bait. Which is how her thoughts landed in that square.
Her questions after that interaction are probing to work out where people stand, not pushing at all which would match a more careful playstyle until people put pressure on her. Given what I extracted from her personality ealier I believe this would resulted in them acting defensive and making rash choices.

[Naomi-Tan]

My my, what a development.

An Alisae red flip will make me very interested in Naomi.

No doubt given the above post XD

[Naomi-Tan]

Oh and UNVOTE: because I never go to sleep holding a vote.

That's rather foolish as it artificially deflates wagons.

Once again, no real conviction in his voting. To him it honestly doesn't matter.

Instead of understanding his playstyle, she prefers to push her narrative of Gin's actions. Scum.

What town decides to respond to a constructive post (mine) like this? It's trying to twist his action as scummy.

okay when your flustered and confirm baising people you do, do stuff like that. also I'm pretty sure the reason she quoted your post there was to try and convince you to assist her.

[Naomi-Tan]

Like Given the last time someone pressured her she contradicted herself in the same post It shows that she is the kinda of player that hears responses and takes them to heart getting emotional swiftly and the more emotional she gets the less logical she becomes.

[Naomi-Tan]

Additionally given my analysis I believe after they read this they'll attempt to 180 Given thus far I been on her side and a rather 3rd party to the original situation so she is more likely to read my posts with a positive mindset which may be enough to realign her view point as she takes a step back and looks at the situation from my perspective. However, if they are intelligent they will also know this will only bring MORE heat so may stick with it to not get lynched. Which is why I'm setting up this post here to provide an out. How Am I going to do this? like this.

Alisae If upon reading my posts you have changed your views please let us know.

[Naomi-Tan]

Gamma; Yeah I thought you'd do that.

[Naomi-Tan]

It should be obvious by now that I don't just use posts to fence my position. I also take into account emotions and previous reactions.

[Naomi-Tan]

Gamma; Yeah I thought you'd do that.

Are you calling my reconsideration red-indicative?

No I'm calling Your reconsideration a good move for both alignments but something given your personality would fit.

[Naomi-Tan]

what makes you think you know my personality

observation mostly and reading the game as a whole. Given I observed your not stubborn or headstrong and I provided an argument that was pretty solid It benefited both a Green aligned and red aligned view point.

[Naomi-Tan]

Like Given the last time someone pressured her she contradicted herself in the same post It shows that she is the kinda of player that hears responses and takes them to heart getting emotional swiftly and the more emotional she gets the less logical she becomes.

So you're saying Ailsae is just a flustered townie, more so than the possibility that she's scum having a hard time coming up with an argument?

Need to know for my notes.

yes It doesn't make much sense from the latter perspective as you'd be trying to think carfully to reduce pressure while making mistakes like the one she did shows that she wasn't handling the pressure very well.

[Naomi-Tan]

Read my explanation to All-Alone, I answered this as they were phone posts while at work, not much time to actually develop thought and took posts at face value instead of soaking up the entire thread before making decisions, my fault but all posts after my reads list have been taken into account the whole game.

One thing I do like that you brought back up is post 183; because while phone posting, I started to get confused on why Gamma would say he was waiting on two inactives and was going to ask why he was acting like a mod instead of playing but he ghosted me.

that would make sense if the relationship was one way, but its two way.

[Naomi-Tan]

nah I don't agree with 108 only because the game just started so the inactives are the people who haven't checked in yet or are unaware the game started. If this was like late Day 1 or Day 2 or something maybe he had a point, but not early day 1.

maybe I am misreading 195 but I don't see any of what you just said. In the earlier posts, Aspho looks much better than Ircher. Those posts by gamma aren't town posts imo. Ircher's defense of gamma is very weird to me. So All alone is casting shade on Aphro when he looks townier in that exchange between him/ircher. That's scum points for AA not town points.

422 - "Ok that makes sense" is a favourably response? how? he then votes Alisae for something from another game.

yeah none of those I can see coming from town.

want to try again or just join me in lynching him?

I see what your saying by this. but I would like you to join my wagon. You agree that Gamma's posts early on don't match a Green mindset so let us unite our powers. It may be that AA is the 3rd i'm looking for. But right now we both agree on gamma.

[Naomi-Tan]

Yeah I think there green. it matches there play. Can't be trusted I think is just there style. but If it turns out there red I expect they'll trip up later.

[Naomi-Tan]

A somebody town doesn't make them town.

I haven't liked Alisae's avoidance of wagons based on appearances (how being on them would make her look), and nothing she's done since then has convinced me otherwise.

The only other place I see myself voting today would be Naomi for the blatant white knighting. She seems to be invested in ensuring Alisae isn't run up. Makes sense if she's trying to protect a scum PR.

Hmm thats a weird way to put it. the last I spoke about things with Alisae you was sure we was on the same team. given the change of your stance did you change your thoughts? if so why didn't you unvote and switch to me? Cause If you think I'm white knighting that means you think Alisae is Green from that the time of the quoted message. I saw a miss lynch happening and I stepped in and gave them an out. given that Reds have no day talk It would make more sense to assume that I was assisting a red team mate out of a bad situation given your previous stance rather than going with white knighting. Can you tell me how you came to white knighting over just assisting a red team mate?

[Naomi-Tan]

given that Reds have no day talk

How do you know this?

its not in the rules so Im assuming.

[Naomi-Tan]

given that Reds have no day talk

How do you know this?

its not in the rules so Im assuming.

"given" is not an assumption, it's a statement of fact.

VOTE: Naomi

You slipped hard.

No its in the normal guide lines that you have to state if there is day talk. So In my post I made the statement as if It was a true fact to make it more convincing and put greater pressure on you. As it is not stated in the rules we can assume there is no day talk however, it is still possible given the normal setup that communication between reds is possible (they might have masons or have an encryptor) But in the first post It wouldn't made my point as strongly if I used given its likely instead of given.

[Naomi-Tan]

it is still possible given the normal setup that communication between reds is possible (they might have masons or have an encryptor)

Please read everything U_U

[Naomi-Tan]

Yes and I was saying I said it that way as it doesn't make the point as well jesus.

[Naomi-Tan]

ikbasuvhninbistdnbiusdnbin ptbownterbi nsdibn

>_<

1) How do you kniw scum dont have daytalk?
>>I don't
1b) But you said given
>> To make my point better
2) Don't like thus distance from your white-knight
>> What distance? They was in trouble and I could see they was too proud to admit it so I gave them an out. an out they took

Urgh

[Naomi-Tan]

Okay now I'm out of my game of league here is why I said given. If you was red and I had said "as its unlikely reds have day talk" it would of shown weakness and unsureness and given you an opportunity to take advantage of the situation by not answering my question (which you neglected to answer instead opting to chainsaw IIRC) I wanted to put you off footing and to get you to show if you was red or green. Given that a green would of acted as if what I said was offencive and silly while a red would more likely backout of it. Given you flipped it around on one word it became NAI as if a red spotted I said given They could make this wagon just as easily. The fact that I was making an agressive move acted aganist me here and I understand that I should of said Likely given or some other thing that acknowledged the existence of a role.

Everypost their after was purely to try and get you off your focused word. I used given on an assumption that reds don't have day talk. Beacuse at the time I made an assumption that reds don't have day talk. and I used that to given the possible situations in my head. Which went as follows;

Red having day talk and me and Alisae being red; No need to put my neck out in the main thread as I could of walked them through how to back down or stopped there push ealier.
Red having day talk and me and Alisae not being on the same team. White knighting
Red not having day talk and me and Alisae being red; Being so obvious would make it really easy for greens to get two kills off of a misslynch
Red not having day talk and me being red and Alisae being green; white knighting
Red not having day talk me being green and Alisae being red; I just saved a red woops.
Red not having day talk and me and Alisae being green; I saved someone in trouble.

While white knighting may be a thing. There is no way to prove defending someone is a White knight situation. if you go back to my read list;

Alisae >> Feels like miss guided Green If I had to guess there the type of player that takes a little to form an idea but once its there it sticks for a while. This isn't a bad thing but I feel there pushes are miss guided and go on slightly longer than needed and I feel that they should revaluate more often.

I already said I thought they was being a bad green player and that they 'need to revalute more often' as in take a step back and go 'is this red or just bad for me' then I saw they wasn't doing that and flailing more and more lashing out at anyone and I stepped into stop them. before they self destructed. Is this white knighting is the question. I say no, if your reading someone as bad green and they are being so obvious bad green but are just digging themselves a hole stepping in is one of the ways to avoid them getting miss lynched.

Afterwards I saw Gray try to flip things on me. Which would been fine, but he said I white knighted.. To me white knighting is steping into save someone green aligned when you have shown little or no thoughts that they are green. This is not the case here so I wished to reverse his push on me to pressure them back. This would helped others determine both our alignments as It was a thing I was sure wouldn't go more than a couple of pages as honestly. I didn't wanna lynch them and I felt they saw me as kinda green leaning at the time. Turns out I in my boldness made a misstake as I was getting into the pushing mood. Now you may be wondering. If I've done this kinda thing before and yes I have. If you go back a couple town games to the first game I adopted the colour system I called Town blue. As a town player. I have also made other mistakes while in the moment as TF can confirm (mort push last game, and the other 180's you've seen me do)

I'm not always right. But I know when I have to back out of a mistake that I made and be honest about it. which is why after saying it was an assumption (because it was) I more in depth explained why I used given. I assumed at the time that there was no day talk and when it was brought up I admitted that It was the wrong choice of words. I choose it because it made my point more bold and I shouldn't have.

I am going to keep dealing with the white knight stuff but this one word mistake thing, yeah I'm just gonna put that aside like I did a while ago. sure it'll shade people to me for a while but I expect it'll get me investigated and green confirmed later on.

[Naomi-Tan]

That wall talks about the thoughts on the white knighting and the final full explanation about the given usage.

[Naomi-Tan]

Defending at all costs = White-Knighting regardless of alignment.

defending at all costs? at no point did anyone other than Gray say I was looking red from it. I felt there was little risk to myself. the fact it worked only proves that Alisae wanted an out that I then provided.

[Naomi-Tan]

It was a white-knight just like I did earlier with Gamma.

Not really. no one was linking us. I town read someone and stepped into save them. I've done it before and I'll do it again. finding bad greens is something i like to do this game feels pretty simple to me right now. Okay lets approach this from a new angle. If i'm white knighting and am red. Who are my team mates?

[Naomi-Tan]

Okay lets get stop Alisae killing themselves.

Alisae - Okay I know your prob reading this and have gone quiet as you don't know what to make of things. but you should not join my wagon. If you join right now and I flip green they will go back to hounding you and if I flip red they will say that you are my red buddy and joined late as you couldn't see me talking my way out of things and want the green credit.

[Naomi-Tan]

Two face you out here?

[Naomi-Tan]

More buddying and coaching in-thread. Not a good sign after your earlier "slip".

Given that your current white knight POV. why is helping someone a bad thing. given you should be thinking; 'A Red is preventing a green from dying, thats a good thing, I don't need to comment'.

Yeah Just cause people are red reading me right now doesn't mean its gonna stop me helping someone who looks green and looks like they need assistance.

[Naomi-Tan]

Two face you out here?

I am now, sup

I dunno how I'm gonna convince others to stop pushing me. but I think I can get you to unvote. Could you consider our previous games for a moment If I point out some key things?

[Naomi-Tan]

I just don't understand how you just immediately assumed no day talk like that. you as a townie should have/would have considered that we could have an encryptor at play but you didn't seem to consider it.

that looks like a slip to me

Yeah I see that But I think I can use our shared history to stop this perception with yourself. I'm gonna start cause It looks like your at least willing to humour me.

Okay so last game, you remember when I was trying to push nero and was really frustrated and talked about there activity and said something entirely untrue to try and make my point.

Also Remember last game at the start of it where everyone was giving you shit and I didn't save you as much as I did with Alisae but I did say that hey, this is town you gotta stop

You remember the game before that at the end of day 1 where there was two town trains heading for hammer and I didn't wanna join either of them and was crying in protest that I couldn't decide between both town trains and I tried to derail them both

You also remember in that game I made the mistake of calling town blue instead of the green that I adopted afterwards and it became a big thing and people was calling it a slip up.

Given those things. Willing to give me some space here?

[Naomi-Tan]

You give me too much credit. My memory is shit. When I get to a computer I'll look into what you're saying.

Yeah even I only vaugely remember some of these things. Blue green one is the one I remember most clear and the nero push as it was painful. Think I remember most from the Blue green game is vedith being mean >_<

[Naomi-Tan]

People are running up Naomi for fuck all. Wording slips are rarely ever really viable. If she slipped that mafia -did- have daytalk, that'd be a different story.

Read her meta post at the start of this game and stop being bad townies. Naomi is probably town.

Well.. If your gonna go with the best quote to stop things I'd choose this one

you don't always need to be careful. I often post without thinking about it. only my bigger posts have more depth to them.

It was about a different person at the time and yeah it makes sense to me.

[Naomi-Tan]

Qutie frankly I am calm, collected, and tired. Not freaking out. Press my buttons a bit and I can do that.

Either way, your voting is...I believe the right term is wishywashy?
VOTE: TheRealGin-N-Tonic

Dude I miss the evidence for this?

I did miss this. though I dont think its calm. like.. if your calm why use 'quite frankly' as a phrase. that isn't a thing a relaxed and calm person says..

[Naomi-Tan]

Naomi what does the interaction between me and gin tell you about the both of us?
Like, I dunno if Gin just really doesn't know how to handle pressure and he's townie because he seems genuinely frustrated or if he's scum.
Like, I think this might be his first game on site as well tho.

I actually see you poorly handling pressure

Holy banana's someone else who saw it before my post XD

[Naomi-Tan]

Did I ever answer 418?

[Naomi-Tan]

Okay guys so... I was doing a thought experiment over a snack break. Given there are 13 players and 3 of them are red and there is no declared day talk. I'm guessing we have 4 green Pr's and 2 Red Pr's :3

Im not looking for anyone to claim. but I will see if things match upto this later :3 I wanna become better at predicting the setups.

[Naomi-Tan]

that's a weird post.

if you want to learn about setups, here - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=29549

I refer to this a lot when trying to figure out possible setups. You can't even make an educated guess day 1.

Yeah I think its fun to guess stuff though XD. With no outted roles it would be impossible to guess XD

[Naomi-Tan]

TF - Why are me and gray on the same team? I understand your red reading both of us, but what benafit would Grays push on me be If I flip red? like wise, why would I attempt to stop the wagon of someone on my team? I know your mad but I need you to focus Cause I'm not seeing a view where me and him are on the same team unless we are trying to foil each others plans in a 3 scroges type deal. also How does these two changes in your reads fit into your previous team comp of all and Ircher (IIRC)

[Naomi-Tan]

TF - Why are me and gray on the same team? I understand your red reading both of us, but what benafit would Grays push on me be If I flip red? like wise, why would I attempt to stop the wagon of someone on my team? I know your mad but I need you to focus Cause I'm not seeing a view where me and him are on the same team unless we are trying to foil each others plans in a 3 scroges type deal. also How does these two changes in your reads fit into your previous team comp of all and Ircher (IIRC)

distancing. I see no green motivation for removing his vote off basically confirmed scum.

was gonna talk more on this. but I think all I really need to ask is. why is distancing the most likely reason for the sabotage of the Alisae wagon and the push on myself.

[Naomi-Tan]

you people make it very hard to catch up. how the fuck are there already three more pages, its been like a few hours since i last checked at most.

Mostly small posts and TF getting warmed up

[Naomi-Tan]

TF getting warmed up

When you get flustered you make more short posts and refresh a lot and comment a lot. much like when I do my read ups.

[Naomi-Tan]

TF getting warmed up

When you get flustered you make more short posts and refresh a lot and comment a lot. much like when I do my read ups.

I think of your posting kinda like mine where there are slow times and fast times. For example. Today I'm posting between episodes of doctor who. Which is slower and Ealier I was only posting (jaming that F5 button) Thats the difference there. Its entirely NAI but its just something thats kinda unquine about you. for another persons example HS likes to give posts about 2 paragraphs long with about 5 lines per a paragraph. (least on my monitor) only giving bigger posts when there under pressure and smaller posts when answering a question.

[Naomi-Tan]

Gamma, if you're town then you should know this is my Newbie 1762 play.

calls gamma scum
tries to appeal to him by pointing to previous game meta

yeah so gamma is probably town and grey is still probably scum as suspected.

Could this be distancing?

[Naomi-Tan]

So, point to the right if you think we're approaching this from the wrong angle.



Also, is it just me, or did Asphodel disappear?

V/LA December 25

I feel this bares requoting.

Anyway I think I'm starting to make some progress.

So TF Are you sure me and gray are on the same side?

[Naomi-Tan]

Well I tried..

For those of you who have been reading my posts directed at Two face with confusion; Two face is the type of player that falls heavily to confirm bais. once TF gets an idea in their heads its hard to get it out. So I been asking probing questions knowing they are town as I know me and Gray are town to try and get them to firstly decide that Red!Me and Red!Gray do not exist on the same team no matter what and then to get them to understand that we are both green.
I failed to do so. But thats fine. I'm sure TF will eventually shift his perceptions on his own. This is also why I been ignoring Greys comments. I feel it would of distracted two face from my attempt.

[Naomi-Tan]

Enabler is such a fucky role I dislike it Like.. It says in the wiki your counter part doesn't even need to exist.

[Naomi-Tan]

Enabler is such a fucky role I dislike it Like.. It says in the wiki your counter part doesn't even need to exist.

That's to prevent game breaking. Like putting in a nurse with no doctor.

Yeah but imagen being like a Day 2 innocent child enabler claiming it D2 but then no innocent child appears. or doing a Tracker enabler and woops no tracker claim. you might as well be VT but You know this role might exist and if you die they break.

[Naomi-Tan]

UNVOTE: I Don't feel sure enough about Gamma to stick with my vote here anymore. there responce to my train (kinda like my response to Alisae) didn't need to happen and this PR claim as well makes me feel that its not a pressing issue to be voting for them at this time. Maybe D3 or D4 if there still alive. But as of now I believe its just me miss reading there play.

[Naomi-Tan]

Asphodel - I'm putting your question aside for now. As I'm playing with a friend and don't have the time to write out the few paragraphs it will take. So for now I will say by the time I stepped into defend them I already had a green read on them

[Naomi-Tan]

yeah how do you know that?

Jumped out to me as opportunistic. Later Gamma said he thought Grey's reaction was worse than TF's. I disagree. This post screams "I don't want to be quiet when all this goes down" to me. Wouldn't be surprised at all if there was a Naomi x TF scumteam, regardless of whether Naomi slipped.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=64916
Day 1 of this shows a town white-knight. They dont go constantly go back and forth on reads and give in whenever it feels it's convenient; they stick with it as AlwaysInnocent did with me in the linked game.

I don't like this at all from Ircher. Ircher's cherry picking an example that's not even Naomi and using it as proof that Naomi can't be town because she's not acting like someone else did.

Okay lets get stop Alisae killing themselves.

Alisae - Okay I know your prob reading this and have gone quiet as you don't know what to make of things. but you should not join my wagon. If you join right now and I flip green they will go back to hounding you and if I flip red they will say that you are my red buddy and joined late as you couldn't see me talking my way out of things and want the green credit.

Naomi, why are you reaching out to Alisae in particular with this post?

I just got her out of trouble and she had the chance to put herself back into it. as I had already ID'd her as a weaker player I thought I would recommend she not jump on as it would been equally bad for her at least from my veiw.

[Naomi-Tan]

1) The "scum don't have day talk" is not a slip. It is something that you should always operate on as being true unless something presents itself to directly say otherwise. If Naomi said scum DO have day talk, that would be worth jumping on. As it stands she said something that I would bet all my bits everypony else assumed is the case.

Like on one hand you have a point, on the other anyone who's played a game with an encryptor shouldn't automatically assume scum have daytalk. If Naomi said probably that would change everything.

If somebody said "scum probably have day talk" would that be a slip?

It's the certainty that makes me think slip

No I auto assume they don't cause its normal that they don't just cause I know a role exists doesn't mean I should assume its in the game. am I also to assume that there is a strong man a roleblocker a cop a doc a tracker a watcher a ghost writer a neopollition ect. ect. ect. Unless there is evidence to suggest otherwise I don't assume any role is in the game. Yes I knew it was a role that existed and wrote it in a way that they didn't exist. I explained that I assumed no Day talk and admitted in the following post that it was a role I knew about. but There is literally nothing I can give you on this train of thought; You say I know stuff. I say I don't. back to square one, drop it -_-

[Naomi-Tan]

Okay read up again.

[Naomi-Tan]

The reason I am 180ing is because I have a plan for seeing if Grey is really a cop.

I'm sure my death will clear things up nicely.

Well... given your claim I think you being shot Is a given.. I mean unless another strong PR is exposed a Cop is a pretty good target.

[Naomi-Tan]

Okay read up again.

Why didn't you comment on anything after this? That's not like you.

The reason I am 180ing is because I have a plan for seeing if Grey is really a cop.

I'm sure my death will clear things up nicely.

Well... given your claim I think you being shot Is a given.. I mean unless another strong PR is exposed a Cop is a pretty good target.

Nothing until this post which is sort of obvious.

You see why I think you're scum? This isn't town Naomi.

Kinda was unmotivated yesterday after being chewed out for saving someone the day before. Also most of this stuff happened after I went bed. I do live in the UK so my last post was at about 10pm for me. Normally speaking i'm up all night but with christmas coming I switched to a more normal sleep pattern as I like to spend time with my family around this time of year going out and stuff. So when 10 pages pop up after I've gone bed its easy to see How It may look like I'm delaying compared to the games where I am up all night and can contribute like I did at the start of the game.

6. Naomi-Tan (+65%) - Guess I'm starting after 27 here. Serious Q -- Are you being facetious in 218? What was your read on Grey and me after making 230? 266 is a good readslist imo. 292 reads really town to me -- scum care, town don't. Starting to see what Naomi said for her introduction (and that's a good thing). 482 was a slip regardless of alignment, but that doesn't necessary mean Naomi is scum. Town "slip" all the time cuz they're less cautious. 549 gives an associative tell if either flips scum. Why did you feel the need to requite me in 660? (Not that it was necessarily a bad thing, I just wanna know why). Yeah, I kinda glazed through a lot of posts cuz they were hard to read, but I think the assessment during her intro is very accurate, so she's probs town.

Nope in 218 was around the point I put grey into the Green pool hard. I still think there green right now. There reactions and actions just look like someone who is aggressively looking for any red slip. It can be grating at times but I don't equate being aggressive and abrasive to being red aligned. It can be a red trait but I think given grays analysis and thoughts they are probably green.

In 230 my perception was you might be bad green. Lately I been unsure of that though. Gray was pretty much unchanged.

I just felt like 660 bared repeating. So It could be seen in both our iso's You drew attention to something no one else was looking at. I think it was good.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then I read rainbows post. She puts forward an amazing case here and entirely flipped my thoughts on gray. Like Her first section where they talk about how he assumed no RB is a thing. Like he had a go at me for assuming no day talk when its not declared. If that was his attitude towards roles. why would be also make an assumption and RB is a much more common role in my experience.

As I read the second part of RB's post all I was thinking was Why would they claim cop Day 1? They wasn't under major pressure and it just paints a huge target on themselves. Its very confusing to me.

VOTE: Gray Rainbows post Is masterful Red hunting. I don't think I would of spotted all that I'm joining this wagon.


I'll post this now and continue catchup oringally I was going to put my Ircher thoughts at the end ... so I think I will.
I'm unsure where I stand with Ircher right now. I do see the points people have made but If Gray is red and I was wrong (which I believe right now) I can't see a game where Ircher and Gray are on the same team given interactions at this stand Ircher was tunnelling gray for a while and IIRC gray also at one point voted back. If Rainbow haddn't stepped in I could see myself probing Ircher much more to try and work out their red green balance. but as it stands I feel they are likely green. I may look into this if gray flips green. but as it stands I think Ircher is Green by association.

[Naomi-Tan]

@Rainbow: if you believe me about my claim Ircher should be scummy to you.

As odd as it may seem given what I am currently pushing, I tend to pride myself more on town read than on scum reads. If you have ever seen me play I will absolutely defend somepony I think is town to no end when I read them as town, even if that's not a popular read I am usually able to get them off the block. I was reading Ircher as one of my strongest town reads for quite a while, so this sudden descent of him is giving me fits since I don't know if he actually is just confused about what is going on or had happened to luck into hitting a few of my town tells in the early game.

Really im not sure if he just doesn't understand that the only way I really think you are scum is if you are ungodly creative with that role claim/are true claiming as scum and ascetic is scum or there is none. Its hard to sometimes judge since your role really is that rare.... in easily over 100 games here this is maybe the third time I have seen this role pop up.

Removed from your claim, you would be more of a null read to me, but that claim I don't see being fabricated, and if you had the guts to claim that as scum more power to you. That's really the only reason I have you as solid town here.

Either way, my vote is VERY firmly planted. I don't see Grey as town. As said already, I see him as more likely VT who tired to get cute than cop here.

@Ircher - Explain the scum motivation for Gamma to claim what he did for me.

I can relate to this. I find it much easier to find reds by the process of POE than but singleing them out.

[Naomi-Tan]

If you see him as VT, don't vote for him (unless that's not what you believe).

I don't think he is. I would say it something like 60% scum, 30% VT, 10% cop. More likely VT than cop, but more likely scum than anything else.

Again note how he basically ignores anything that is pushed against him. That is not what town does, that is scum who is afraid of town and wants it to just go away so hopes the speed of the game does that for him.

Also, RD should not have claimed FOR THE EXACT SAME REASONS Ascetics should not.

I claimed so we could lynch Grey. If me revealing myself does that, we have created a situation where scum has to choose to kill the miller and ignore the other PRs, or leave other PRs alive to kill me. Either town gets further in the game or I eat a kill and help the rest of the town.

Also note how he picked out the one line that could be taken as a red slip like they did with my post

[Naomi-Tan]

Yeaaaah. I dunno who the fuck I want to lynch now.
All I know is that it's not Human Sequencer, it's not Naomi, and it certainly ain't Gamma.

I don't like this pony tho.
I feel like the only alignment to try to not believe the cop claim is scum.
VOTE: RainbowDash

No cop is kinda a safe red claim. You already know who Green are and can then start confirming people who are middle teir before shooting them off the next night or confirming a Pr as they get killed. Given you know who red and green are and where reds NK goes you could easily do stuff like this;

Fake Cop Target Gamma. (with either roleblock or Rolecop)
Killer Target Gamma.

Suddenly you have a watcher/tracker confirming You targeted the killed. With someone else. You say you copped them to confirm their role and the other person flips red. Suddenly you've outted a tracker/watcher PR and Confirmed your Fake PR to the rest of town. Given that you can then easily start offing people. starting with the investigative role that confirmed you and moving on to the rest of town. For bonus points have your remaining red buddy claim nurse and no kill one night (prob the first night) and when mass roleclaim comes you have a confirmed Doc and Cop on reds team. Its classic XD

But yeah Cop super safe as long as there isn't a second cop in the game Your pretty much safe.

[Naomi-Tan]

Here's the deal.
Claiming Miller first post means scum can't fakeclaim miller under cop investigation.

But if they are going to claim miller under pressure D1 you can then Counter Claim it. I normally like to wait till near the end of day one to claim Miller

[Naomi-Tan]

Yeaaaah. I dunno who the fuck I want to lynch now.
All I know is that it's not Human Sequencer, it's not Naomi, and it certainly ain't Gamma.

I don't like this pony tho.
I feel like the only alignment to try to not believe the cop claim is scum.
VOTE: RainbowDash

No cop is kinda a safe red claim. You already know who Green are and can then start confirming people who are middle teir before shooting them off the next night or confirming a Pr as they get killed. Given you know who red and green are and where reds NK goes you could easily do stuff like this;

Fake Cop Target Gamma. (with either roleblock or Rolecop)
Killer Target Gamma.

Suddenly you have a watcher/tracker confirming You targeted the killed. With someone else. You say you copped them to confirm their role and the other person flips red. Suddenly you've outted a tracker/watcher PR and Confirmed your Fake PR to the rest of town. Given that you can then easily start offing people. starting with the investigative role that confirmed you and moving on to the rest of town. For bonus points have your remaining red buddy claim nurse and no kill one night (prob the first night) and when mass roleclaim comes you have a confirmed Doc and Cop on reds team. Its classic XD

But yeah Cop super safe as long as there isn't a second cop in the game Your pretty much safe.

I'm not thinking that because of what he said about cops. I'm thinking it because of what he said about Asectics.

TBH I've sorta given up trying to meta out this game balance. Its all janky IMO

[Naomi-Tan]

Let me try to lead you onto the conclusion I came to then.
Why could scum!rainbowdash not want Ascetics to claim?

Yeah good question. Why would RD not want to claim a role she doesn't have? Partially if they risked being counter claimed. Why would Red!RD want to claim Ascetics is a better question.

[Naomi-Tan]

... I did? how was I meant to read it?

[Naomi-Tan]

Why would scum not want the Ascetics to claim, you read why would scum claim Ascetic

I dunno why would Reds not want the ascetics to claim? If they have any active abilities knowing who they are would be useful. I don't think reds would shoot them unless they was a high skill player like RD looks like. So.. From a Reds perspective I think you'd be Meh on them claiming or not and just say in game the thing that you think would get most town cred. As no one seems to agree on the situation It could be 50-50. I don't think reds would think its a piroity information enough to force a claim given that they are still suspectable to NK.

[Naomi-Tan]

Next question: What if scum had no Ascetics?

This theory falls apart if they do btw.

Not really I said my last thing as if Green had the Ascetic.

[Naomi-Tan]

Next question: What if scum had no Ascetics?

This theory falls apart if they do btw.

Not really I said my last thing as if Green had the Ascetic.

I feel like scum not having Ascetics is possible and the reason that Rainbow doesn't want them claiming is because it's a step closer for us building a stronger townblock for us to lead lynches off of.
With that said tho, this falls apart if they do have Ascetics, which then I feel like Rainbow would want Ascetics to claim so that his own Ascetics could blend in with more ease.

Nah as a power role Ascetics doesn't really stop or slow Reds and they can shoot them if they want. Rainbows stuff is how the cop claim reads fake.

[Naomi-Tan]

UNVOTE: Just had a thought. Given that Gray claimed cop All I gotta do is wait till tomorrow. Unless there is no kill I can be sure there town. So yeah I think we dont need to deal with this till tomorrow.

[Naomi-Tan]

UNVOTE: Just had a thought. Given that Gray claimed cop All I gotta do is wait till tomorrow. Unless there is no kill I can be sure there town. So yeah I think we dont need to deal with this till tomorrow.

Wow that was poorly written let me try again

Given they claimed cop one of two things will happen tonight
Reds will shoot Grey
or Greys death will be negated by a saving role
This means if Grey is telling the truth there will either be a no kill or a cops corpse. So unless neither of those things happens I don't think we need to do a grey lynch.

[Naomi-Tan]

So before my last post I was just getting ready to go to the panto with my family and now i'm back... however I had 2 slushes and 2 packets of winegums I feel pretty sick as fuck right now. I'm taking the rest of today off thinking hard..

[Naomi-Tan]

WHY FUCKING FAKE MILLER AS SCUM D1.

THATS A 1V1 TRADE TOWNIE TO SCUM YOU NUMBSKULL.

you don't do that shit as scum until MyLo/LyLo

Ask her postgame. Scum being stupid does not make their role pm green.

Hassarh! the green red revolsution spreads.

[Naomi-Tan]

I have no faith that this town will understand how both of y'all are town and we are not forced to lynch either of you but when it happens, when can I say I told ya so?

About the same time I am.. Grey actions look green and no one puts in as much effort as red as rainbow put into this. I think this is just role BS fuckery. However, Given how much RD put out and the consistancy of grey. I personally think we should keep them both around. If RD is putting in this effort all the time they'll burn out or slip up eventually. Likewise If Grey is faking a cop claim we should know fairly shortly by night actions.

I feel that the thoughtful way both RD and grey examined the game would be more fruitful for us still being in the game. I feel that If RD is read there miss lynches will eventually catchup to them, meanwhile they'll be forced to give indepth insight into how the Reds view us or for today how she does.

Like wise if Grey is red due to his claim he'll be forced to Reveal some other green players to us and though that becomes WIFOM We can assume if he lives long enough he'll be a red. As why leave the cop up for so long and risk being copped.

Least thats my sugar high thoughts on everything. I think its TvT while I'm literally vomiting rainbows.

[Naomi-Tan]

VOTE: Gin

VOTE: Gin

Errrr.... Okay..

Can you two expand on this? I'd like to know some reasoning.

[Naomi-Tan]

Not a single scum, who has ever won, would be the one to make a play so dumb.

No such thing as too dumb to be Scum.

I dunno you should seen my earliest games XD

[Naomi-Tan]

welp. I'm lost.. Having my predictions turn out incorrect has tilted me. I'm so used to being able to tell reds and greens apart that the fact that this game I think I have been wrong 3 times Is a real flaw I think the players here will take some more time for me to read correctly. I guess for now its time to take a back seat and support others for once.

[Naomi-Tan]

Hmm.. Let me put this into context.

During the start of D1 I thought I had the game solved with; Gin and Gamma and Ircher being the red team
Then Interactions happened making -Grey-, Alisae, TwoFace and Human Sequencer Green
Then Gamma Claims and I'm like wut?
Then RD comes out and is like Here is good stuff while -Grey- is red and I'm like; Hmm yeah thats well thought out.. but then turns out there red.. with so much effort too and I'm just confused..
and then this flip I guess Gamma Gin could be the last two remaining red members but I just can't bring myself to trust my gamma read after that claim.. Urgh.. everything is going wrong!

[Naomi-Tan]

I doubt Gamma is red after that claim and scumflip.

I Know! but everything is so confused in my head now. nothing is flowing correctly. I think I'm just gonna ask questions when I can and let those who have solved the game well so far handle stuff.. I feel that If I try to do a more aggressive and proactive style Im just gonna push the wrong people for reasons that seem right to me.. I'm just really tilted now

[Naomi-Tan]

Grey whats your reasoning on a red krylea? Out of curiousity

[Naomi-Tan]

I'm inarguably confirmed town. There is nothing to be gained by questioning me except giving me the impression that you want to look productive without actually being productive.

When I have something more to say, I'll say it. Until then, ta.

Yes. this is true. but you've also put yourself in the position of leading greens.. Like I dunno what to do right now so I wanna get some leads so I can look into things and see if there worthwhile or not. I want you to help me by giving me some direction. Cause your "inarguably confirmed town" I know that I can trust you and your direction. But I'm not willing to blindly sheep you either. So give me a reason something to look into and work over. So I can make my own mind up on their position from my own legwork. Right now I feel I have no strong feelings on them. So... I'm looking to help me readjust my views and learn from you.

[Naomi-Tan]

I'm still not convinced you're town.

Your never convinced of anything XD

[Naomi-Tan]

I don't like how Gin is tunneling me. I get Grey's suspicion of me, but Gin's case is largely built off the back of one post day 1 that he completely misinterpreted, even though I clarified several times. It's making me suspect him more and more, and there's already things about him I find suspicious.
Gin was never on RD's wagon day 1 and repeatedly tried to defuse it. Gin made up a case on me to try to have a new potential lynch d1 after he saw people were scumreading me. Gin was also on Ircher's wagon, who flipped town.
Now, day 2 Grey made a fake push on Gin to see who would respond, hoping to catch scum. The only person who hopped on was Alisae. Now, Gin is pushing me - the other obvious lynch target.
Again, if I am scum, why did noone on my scumteam join the case against Gin, since we are the obvious two suspects today? Yes, I see how it could be scum paranoia, but it could easily also be because a) I am town, b) Gin is scum or c) both, and I think that is the more likely scenario.

I hope your wrong.. least then the world would make some sense again.. But I see where your coming from.. sigh.. but if there red urghs.. Does that make gamma red? Or argh I hate feeling so lost >_<

[Naomi-Tan]

Like constantly second guessing your reads as they was mostly wrong is so much fucky to your head. like do I go against all my thoughts? with them? going with them so far has lead everything wrong so should I just sheep but that'll look red and will just mean I'll get killed ARUGH >_< I dislike this matchup heavily I can't work my head from my tail >_<

[Naomi-Tan]

During the start of D1 I thought I had the game solved with; Gin and Gamma and Ircher being the red team
Then Interactions happened making -Grey-, Alisae, TwoFace and Human Sequencer Green
Then Gamma Claims and I'm like wut?
Then RD comes out and is like Here is good stuff while -Grey- is red and I'm like; Hmm yeah thats well thought out.. but then turns out there red.. with so much effort too and I'm just confused..
and then this flip I guess Gamma Gin could be the last two remaining red members but I just can't bring myself to trust my gamma read after that claim.. Urgh.. everything is going wrong!

Think that explains it.

[Naomi-Tan]

If you didn't trust Gamma then why didn't you vote him?

Shoot forgot;
VOTE: Gamma Emerald I think I'm gonna park a vote here right now as Its the person I feel is most likely to be Red.

I did vote them.

[Naomi-Tan]

Hold the phone..

[Naomi-Tan]

Fine. I REALLY WANTED to get a hard townread out of this, but since no one knows proper play I have to be the IC of this game.
I am an Ascetic Enabler. I was hoping Ascetics would come forward and claim so I could have townreads to start with. The proper play with the Ascetic modifier is to claim in your first post or so. However, no one seems to get that, so I decided to go hamfisted and link to the last game I played with an Ascetic. STILL no one got it, mostly because no one bothered to read it. So I now have to fucking depants before I can use my role info to find town.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

So erm... Yeah I just twigged.. If RD was Red and the Astetic. why would the enabler be a separate alignment? Wouldn't that put things majorly in Greens favour? With a Cop and jailor and reds being able to risk losing a PR just by shooting the wrong Night target?

[Naomi-Tan]

This is something right? Or am I just being dumb again?

[Naomi-Tan]

I quoted my vote day one...

[Naomi-Tan]

UNVOTE: I Don't feel sure enough about Gamma to stick with my vote here anymore. there responce to my train (kinda like my response to Alisae) didn't need to happen and this PR claim as well makes me feel that its not a pressing issue to be voting for them at this time. Maybe D3 or D4 if there still alive. But as of now I believe its just me miss reading there play.

thats where I leave the train.

[Naomi-Tan]

AA - Yes.. but would it make sense in this setup? I'm thinking cop and Jailor are two strong power roles and to add in a way that by mistake you could remove another power role.. Imagen being red and (having no one claim) killing Gamma as your first kill.

That night Cop announces (potentially) that someone is red. additionally You lose one of your Pr's.. and thats before you take into account a Jailor saving people on future nights. Wouldn't it be entirely green sided with a Enabler that was green? in this game with the Pr's we know about?

[Naomi-Tan]

Fine, if you think Gamma is currently your strongest scumread, I'll get off you, but I'm not currently happy with you. It seemed like you were fencesitting to be honest.
VOTE: Krylea

eh? I could see you thinking that way. Im kinda all lost right now as my usal read stuff didn't work right. Normally Im excellent at picking bad players from the reds. but I called the jailor wrong and I'm normally pretty good at telling who reds are but rainbow was a red when at the end of D1 I was entirely convinced they was green and this was just a TvT situation that I had to settle down.

Like I was pretty much certain.. no one normally puts in that much effort as those two did and there exchange looked genuine from both sides.. at first I was with RD as I guess I was kinda confirm Bais'ing a little and there oringal post was pretty convincing when I read it. but nope. It was all a ruse.

I've spent most of the last couple days just questioning myself if any of my reads are right.. Take two face. Normally hes active like myself on my more active times but he has been more background in this game. and he tossed doubt on someone who I think is confirmed town right now. Which Im not sure matches there play style. but then again two face is stubbon and unpredictable and if I went in on that and I was wrong again he would just get me slain and could be like "woops" and no one would care.. I feel my position is shakey and that makes me even more nervous to act.. I don't normally get things this wrong and I feel that only the cop clearing me will help. but given the jailor is down I doubt that'll happen too. Im just doing my best to not kill myself by just trying to find something that'll help us.. even if all I can add is questions Im hoping that in someway that'll help us win. Everything is just off this game. I did at least manage to save one person so.. if I can just keep helping people in little ways and just sorta explaining myself and stuff I'm sure between us we'll find the last reds.

[Naomi-Tan]

I'm working on a bigger post right now but first here is something I spotted while going backwards and forwards and just generally trying to look at stuff.

TwoFace and conf!town Grey both thought they caught Naomi in a slip, you can't say it's a scum motivated logic and not the possibility that it's his actual lead.

Naomi also hard defended Rainbow and pushed for Grey, which has been proven to get scum revealed/lynched. So added to that fact, I'm more than willing to lynch Naomi.

It's also good to note that Naomi said she is usually really good at getting reads right, but when she does produce them, she says it in a way that goes like "Hey I think this, but don't trust me, I'm not sure I think it." I'm seeing it as a form of fence sitting so no blame can be attached to her.

The idea came to me to do a mini VA on Grey and report what I see.

I can dig it.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

RVS: Sheepvote, beginning of the game, you can't expect much from anything really.

Anyway, would like to point everyone to my wiki page with an ~30% or so win rate.

VOTE: Ircher

Already making excuses for his poor decisions.

This is still early in the game but it starts a trend I've been following with his voting pattern. Ircher saying he has a low win rate and wanting him lynched sounds like he's pushing for a policy lynch and policy lynches are meant for townies, so to push for one instead of ignoring said townie raises a yellow flag.

I'm not worried about a flash lynch.
I'm just a lot more interested in what Ircher has to say about a Gamma wagon than I am with the players reversed.

Request granted.

VOTE: Gamma

This vote was just a sheep vote, but what I find suspicious about it is that it only took him 15 minutes and one post from HS to say, "I'll go switch my vote because no reason." If Grey actually wanted to pursue a scum read on Ircher, he would have kept his vote on Ircher and pushed him. This vote shows he doesn't actually care who is voted, he just wants someone lynched in general and that's a scum mindset.

Back to my first choice, I've been on Gamma long enough.

VOTE: Ircher

1:22 to 2:39, just a little over an hour and a 40ish posts on the "gamma wagon." That's not "long enough," that's barely any time at all honestly. It didn't allow an actual discussion to form on Gamma. I see the motive as preventing town from actually trying to solve players by forcing the wheel around in circles.

I like 195 and am willing to lend it my vote.

VOTE: Asphodel

It's getting obvious the trend we see in Grey's vote patterns, he's following the wagons onto anyone that has small case being built onto them. He doesn't actually hold opinions of his own and, to funnily enough quote Alisae, is voting without conviction. The difference here is that he does this too many times for it to be a reaction test, he just fence sits and hops onto any opportunity to mislynch that he can get.

BTW Naomi do you think your weak scum read on TwoFace could come from him trying to be lynch bait or something?

What's with the lynchbait paranoia?

It's like you're afraid of getting on the wrong wagon.

VOTE: Alisae

This is actually hindsight talking but the personality traits and voting patterns I see with Alisae is that 1) She is extra careful with her vote and uses it as if it's a loaded gun instead of a tool in the fashion that say, I would use it in; and 2) She strongly believes in having a case built up before voting someone, ergo all that and you get an understandable reason that Alisae simply won't vote TF because instead, she is taking the time to figure out all the possibilities.

What I don't like about the vote is that i'm reading it as Grey is trying to rush Alisae into voting and get her flustered/manipulate her to vote anyone or just cause chaos instead of game solving.

given that Reds have no day talk

How do you know this?

its not in the rules so Im assuming.

"given" is not an assumption, it's a statement of fact.

VOTE: Naomi

You slipped hard.

This is arguing semantics and honestly it's an opportunistic vote. What Grey doesn't do here is look at Naomi at a whole, doesn't look at any possible scum motives or any of that to back up a possible lead. He just found something small he can pick up on and try to build a case but it's a hallow case at best because it's not actually a slip.

So, Gamma is voting me for voting Naomi over a slip, but completely ignoring 2F who is not only sheeping my push but advancing with it after Gamma stated in thread that he doesn't believe it's a slip.

Town Gamma would have picked up on 2F continuing to push what he considers a non-slip and voted him.

Possible Gamma/2F team. (I read 2F as possible scum for other reasons)

VOTE: Gamma

I'm trying to dissect this post and what it's saying:
He says Gamma votes him because Gamma believes it's a non-slip but in reality, he should be voting Gamma should vote TF because TF agreed.

My interpretation is that Grey isn't actually fighting Gamma's response to him, he's attacking the player and not the argument which I find to be a scum tell. Another factor is that Grey is trying to push the blame for the slip onto TF and have Gamma focus on someone else that's not him but it backfired.

Since Gamma claimed Ascetic Enabler, any "no results" results should be insta-lynched because the ascetic(s) is/are scum hiding behind the role.

I'm happy returning to my previous vote.

VOTE: Naomi

The last vote is simple, he is caught with his pants down so he'll continue to push this "scum slip" instead of actually providing a case onto how Naomi is actually scum. I don't see any actual work by Grey trying to actually determine if a player is scum, I'm seeing him go after each opportunity and voting based on the trends on who is wagonable at the time.


I'd vote Grey but I'm going to sleep in an an hour or two so it'd be a waste but expect it when I wake up.

This is inconsistent.

[Naomi-Tan]

Naomi you better explain your case on Gin, because that is what I like to call bullshit.
That's also before the cop claim.

Yeah I think I might of miss read it. I thought gin was saying how you couldn't red read someone for pushing a slip up on words when in that bigger post he did that Think its pretty irreverent now as I think he was just defining two-faces read.

Naomi, do you feel like you've been more shy with your votes this game than you usually do as green? If so, can you explain why that is?

Naomi, answer this please

Im getting there

[Naomi-Tan]

Okay I been ignoring things for most of today.. I just felt unmotivated to revist this stuff as it keeps coming back and I didn't wanna keep repeating myself. So.. I was kinda hoping the game would move on and I could just keep supporting and doing what I could.. but as thats not gonna happen lets backtrack to the start of the day and I'll answer everything people have said one by one until everyone is happy.

So here we go;

Skipping anything that said I 'scum slipped' as I've spoken about that at length multiple times and It has me REALLY fatigued.

Mafia tried to deny it happened.

Okay so.. this assumes that 100% of Reds was defending me day one. While RD was defending me so was the following people; Human Sequencer, Gamma, Gin, Alisae and krylea
So. While RD did defend me so did just under half the players if you include myself over half (7/13)
This locally leads onto why RD did defend me. Which could been to gain Green credit. Seeing as I was trying to act as a power player at the time budding me was a good idea to lower any suspicions of her later and If she was planning to take out the better arguing Gray having me on herside would of been a better boon given my actions of just saving a person and talking a train down. Tbh working this out is kinda WIFOM.

Moving on.

Well I'm not fully caught up but the posts I've seen just don't have the same sort of analysis I'm used to. She also made a post saying she was suspicious of me but was afraid to push it. I called her on it.

If she were town there should be no fear. I won't be surprised if magically that fear goes away given other people support it.

This is entirely true, most normally I do analysis to try and work out who reds are and it would make sense from TF's perception to see this. But this is not a normal situation for me. Most games I work out rather shortly who my short list of possible reds are and the ones on the bottom of the scale normally are red. This game the reverse has happened its shaken my gameplay. While normally I have the confidence of having people figgured out in this game Im only really sure of a very small handful of players and am trying to filter the others out (that list is Alisae and Human Sequencer for reference) Normally I can tell the more shinning players from the others and work out where the people who are meh are there is a conditional for this though and that non-biestness. I am aware that i'm prone to biest views on occasion and that leads me to make bad reads and given how much pressure I've gotten Its hard to get that clean read that helps me sort things properly. normally my read lists by page 20 have gotten all by 5 people green and that normally pans out. so far my reads have had a Green who was a Red and thats not good and at one stage I even had a cop as red cause I was convinced there Claim was a lie. This is also not good. My non-fear comes from the confidence that my reads are on point and this game.. they haven't been and thats okay. I was happy to let Grey lead the hunt for a while as he was playing better and had more firm views could argue me to a lynch and had the general skill at convincing people that I lack. Course greys gone now and the pressure is back on me.. and when Im pressured I get demotivated and try to fade away to come back when the heat has moved on as under pressure I suck hard and I can't focus on hunting which leads to the vicious cycle that ends with me being miss lynched due to not being able to focus on removing pressure. In fact in one game I entirely snapped under pressure as one guy kept being horrible and spinning stuff at me.

Moving on

Voted Grey even after claim. This has literally not failed us 2/2 and I'm willing to go for a 3 piece

Errr..... Okay firstly; Why didn't you vote for this after I did so originally.
Secondly; Kinda did, SK isn't a red.
Thirdly these;

UNVOTE: Just had a thought. Given that Gray claimed cop All I gotta do is wait till tomorrow. Unless there is no kill I can be sure there town. So yeah I think we dont need to deal with this till tomorrow.

UNVOTE: Just had a thought. Given that Gray claimed cop All I gotta do is wait till tomorrow. Unless there is no kill I can be sure there town. So yeah I think we dont need to deal with this till tomorrow.

Wow that was poorly written let me try again

Given they claimed cop one of two things will happen tonight
Reds will shoot Grey
or Greys death will be negated by a saving role
This means if Grey is telling the truth there will either be a no kill or a cops corpse. So unless neither of those things happens I don't think we need to do a grey lynch.

Where i work out that hey; if he is Green the reds will take him, if not we are good.

Moving on.

VOTE: Gray Rainbows post Is masterful Red hunting. I don't think I would of spotted all that I'm joining this wagon.


I'll post this now and continue catchup oringally I was going to put my Ircher thoughts at the end ... so I think I will.
I'm unsure where I stand with Ircher right now. I do see the points people have made but If Gray is red and I was wrong (which I believe right now) I can't see a game where Ircher and Gray are on the same team given interactions at this stand Ircher was tunnelling gray for a while and IIRC gray also at one point voted back. If Rainbow haddn't stepped in I could see myself probing Ircher much more to try and work out their red green balance. but as it stands I feel they are likely green. I may look into this if gray flips green. but as it stands I think Ircher is Green by association.

I thought I'd quote this for one reason. To ask a question. Assuming both me and RD was Red Why would I be giving her such praise and being so public and so obvious about our link? If I knew that Grey was going to Flip green wouldn't it just put me in a position of doom given everyones feelings at the time? and If me and RD was both red wouldn't RD losing and flipping red just link us in an unavoidable way? It just seems to me that If this was gonna go down being so strongly connected would just be a terrible idea.

y'all can call me stupid idgaf but Naomi is aware of an enabler role. Anyone who is familiar with that should know that's a possibility. It could just be different mindset of whatever but I just don't Buy she didn't consider enabler a possibility

Why do you keep acting like I haven't admitted that I know of the role. I literally said it on the post after as you pointed it out. its not like I ever tried to deny that I did know about them I said why I didn't consider it but your acting like this is a smoking gun and that I keep denying that they exist but that never happened.

Rainbowdash said Naomi's thing wasn't a slip and Naomi thought Rainbowdash was the smartest pony alive.

Now this might just be me, but buddying up so close an early without much interaction is only town!possible with a mason pair.

I can see 3 possibilities on this one;
1) Masons
2) Reds
3) Someone came along with an essay about the person who just tried and failed to organise a wagon on you over miss using a word and as I was already Biest against his existence It (after reading) came off amazing to me and as they defended me on Greys push I felt like they could be trusted and joined them.

:/

Moving on.

What was the case with the enabler role?

I personally don't know how far I'll dabble into that area because this is my first game with ascetics and enablers

if it were a player who's never heard of or encounterd an enabler role before, I could get somebody saying definitely that scum don't have day talk.

Enabler allows scum to have daytalk

Somebody who is familiar with that role imo should never assume that scum don't have daytalk. If she said probably or something that would be different. She said it like it was fact.

I think she's scum for it. I think she's scum for other things also which I sort of explained so it's not just the slip

As far as I'm concerned unless I see a flip of encryptor or people being inconsistent I'm going to assume that reds don't have day talk. I don't assume Town has a cop or that Reds have a roleblocker or there is a Vig until I have evidence of it. same applies here. There are many roles in mafia

Fun facts while researching this;
Asphodel didn't take a real stance on my slip Nor did AA to my reading. In fact she didn't even talk about it all game.

Why do you want to run down Naomi?

Both days she didn't really have any votes (except by the end of day 2 where she voted Gamma) because I got on her case about it. Also buddying the weakest player has it's risk reward. If she could pull it off (which she did at the time), then she gets towncred from me. If she couldn't she gets lynched. At the time I saw no reason why scum would go out of their way to buddy me when I could have turned into a lynch so that's mostly why I gave her towncredit, but I think Naomi buddied me so that I'd give her towncredit. Also her not voting implies that she's fencesitting.

On D1 I had quite a few votes out. I voted for about 4 people. It was after the RD flip that I got all dislocated and confused as I took a knock to my listing and had to work out what peoples alignment REALLY was. I take my time to vote normally and being So very wrong made me distrust my own reads. I think there unreliable right now. So.. I'm being much less aggressive. Only really pointing at things and seeing if people agree or disagree. but it doesn't help with so much focus on me.. like its hard to work people out from interactions that don't involve me as they have been pretty much everything since post 600. Its kinda like trying to work around your biest but then I question I am giving too much give? Should I be pushing this? I don't like pushing around things that involve me it just blinds me to the truth and there is only so much I can gain from the early game.. so I'm kinda working with facts as that I can trust.. and using connections that seem present.

I mean that she didn't have any votes by the end of the day. But TF what about that statement stands out for you?

I'm guessing you mean D1. I unvoted just before the end of the day. This was my final thoughts before D1 ended on the RD VS. Grey situation;

I have no faith that this town will understand how both of y'all are town and we are not forced to lynch either of you but when it happens, when can I say I told ya so?

About the same time I am.. Grey actions look green and no one puts in as much effort as red as rainbow put into this. I think this is just role BS fuckery. However, Given how much RD put out and the consistancy of grey. I personally think we should keep them both around. If RD is putting in this effort all the time they'll burn out or slip up eventually. Likewise If Grey is faking a cop claim we should know fairly shortly by night actions.

I feel that the thoughtful way both RD and grey examined the game would be more fruitful for us still being in the game. I feel that If RD is read there miss lynches will eventually catchup to them, meanwhile they'll be forced to give indepth insight into how the Reds view us or for today how she does.

Like wise if Grey is red due to his claim he'll be forced to Reveal some other green players to us and though that becomes WIFOM We can assume if he lives long enough he'll be a red. As why leave the cop up for so long and risk being copped.

Least thats my sugar high thoughts on everything. I think its TvT while I'm literally vomiting rainbows.

Also On that Note I checked my last game. Over the course of the game I voted 12 times total. This game took about 5 weeks to complete starting on Friday Nov 04 and ending Dec Friend Nov 09. I am not the kind of player that votes often and in that game I was much more certain of my reads than I am here so a decline is going to happen while I take time to work things out.

OH. Well she had no vote by the end of day 1. This is what she responded when I asked for her scumreads:

During the start of D1 I thought I had the game solved with; Gin and Gamma and Ircher being the red team
Then Interactions happened making -Grey-, Alisae, TwoFace and Human Sequencer Green
Then Gamma Claims and I'm like wut?
Then RD comes out and is like Here is good stuff while -Grey- is red and I'm like; Hmm yeah thats well thought out.. but then turns out there red.. with so much effort too and I'm just confused..
and then this flip I guess Gamma Gin could be the last two remaining red members but I just can't bring myself to trust my gamma read after that claim.. Urgh.. everything is going wrong!

Think that explains it.

Naomi what were your scumreads D1?

You asked me about my Red reads Day 1 not about the current red reads. This is an entirely different question to the one you framed.

Naomi, do you feel like you've been more shy with your votes this game than you usually do as green? If so, can you explain why that is?

Yes I have held back more than normally.
Think its lack of confidence as i'm not used to having my reads go so pear shaped so early on and then constantly questioning my reads as all the focus is around me and trying to eliminate emotions from red tells Its super tricky. My red list is much bigger and Only just forming. It also doesn't help that we end so quickly before deadline as my activity always picks up near then as I feel the pressure of the day ending and want to get things sorted to protect my Green reads and lynch my red reads. So I don't have that fast paced manic back and forthing that I have had in other games. Finally Greens here seem more triggure happy than my usual games which leads me to hold back in case I say something that they wanna lynch me for. Another trigger happy game I was also abnormally vote shy.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p8278130
Though I was replaced at around post 400 I had only voted twice in the day so far (ignoring the double vote)

[Naomi-Tan]

Yeah I did. And that's what I meant in that post as well.

You'll have to direct me to the part your talking about here as you didn't define at what this is a response to.

Either way, whats the point of this wall of text again?

Answering everything directed that I am red that people have said today.

[Naomi-Tan]

Yeah I did. And that's what I meant in that post as well.

Thanks for the context.

I quoted your original post where on D2 you asked about my reads D1 this does not equal my reads in the present. fortunately I had already spoken about my reads, in D1, in D2 for me to quote at you.

[Naomi-Tan]

Also Naomi I think you're starting to sound like self-conscious scum.

I'm Always Self-Conscious.

Okay so onto the bulk of stuff. My playstyle Is kinda weird. I don't like dying as either alignment and try to stay alive. this means that sometimes I do actions to just look more green and sometimes and Im suspectable to peer pressure.

I even disclaimer it XD

[Naomi-Tan]

I have an extra bit of stuff for you. Asphodel Last posted Last friday and hasn't said anything since. even accounting for the 2 day night phase I believe he should of been proded by now.

MOD: Asphodel Might need a prod

[Naomi-Tan]

There is literally a 1000 post difference in which each statement was said.

You a gymnast; because damn are you trying to stretch this case?

Wait.. I contextualised this and Discovered there wasn't a case. But your saying there is a case that can be stretched. what case did you think I was making.

And yes for the record if You really believed there was no way that Greys actions wasn't green you wouldn't of been suspicious about it and would own upto it later instead of trying to act like you was always on their side. Which you only joined after the claim.

[Naomi-Tan]

Thats where I was going with that. but you didn't go there in your post as it was talking about two face so didn't really matter so I dropped it. But you seem to think there is something here that I Havn't noticed so I'd like to say where you think I was going with this given you know the context you was going for too.

[Naomi-Tan]

A case is an accusation sweet pea. I called it stupid.

Yes... but what was it? Cause.. I sorta dropped that the moment I realised the context.. but you picked it up as if I had gotten something. So.. what did I get? even if it was stupid there is something here that both me and Alisae didn't notice. So.. I'd like to know what it is we both didn't see?

[Naomi-Tan]

Anyways, I'm like Naomi again.

I haven't heard or sorry if I missed it, but Asphodel's or Flubbs scumreads


P-Edit: You are literally working up a case on me making a joke calling something bullshit. In that post you didn't say you realized it was wrong, I just quoted that one post when I saw it.

Yeah but in the first post your talking about TF's views and the second represented your views. I got on my own that your veiws =/= Two faces Views and posted it shortly after. However, you then posted that there is a case to be had but its a bit of a stretch. Which means there is something here I have over looked I wanna know what that is. As from my perspective there is no case here at all but you say there is kinda one.

[Naomi-Tan]

P-Edit: You are literally working up a case on me making a joke calling something bullshit. In that post you didn't say you realized it was wrong, I just quoted that one post when I saw it.

Ops sorry its 2:30AM ish here so I'm a little sleepy and not paying attention. I thought you red slipped as you was pushing as if I was trying to do a case on two posts a 1k apart when really there was no case to be had. But if you was joking then I'm just being dumb and slow.

[Naomi-Tan]

I know those late night case feelings lol

Ali gave me shit for it last night

I started that big post nearly 3 hours before It got posted. as I had to look back and read all of our reactions to the original Slip to answer twoface, I had to check meta from two other Green games, one for the less aggressive play in an more trigger happy environment and the other for the total votes in my last game. I had to check your reaction to the cop claim. It was a LOT of leg work..

[Naomi-Tan]

I have them in my secondary bracket right now which doesn't tell you much so.. I guess I'll have to Post what I got

11. Human Sequencer
12. Alisae



3. Asphodel
4. Flubbernugget
10. All Alone



5. TwoFace
1. Gamma Emerald
7. The RealGin-N-Tonic

So after the whole all my reads getting tossed about this is kinda where people landed. we got the town grouping at the top. the more quiet lurky people in the middle and the more active people who sit at the bottom. Right now I'm trying to determine where each of them are over all. But I have to start from the top to get reading not revolving around reactions and actions involving myself as I dunno where to place them. (this is pasted from the top area of my note pad btw) If I had to gander a guess I'd guess one is within each. I don't think both reds would lurk or be this active. So.. I'm trying to work out where among the two piles they exist. but there is 3 in each. I should do more leg movement and compare RD's interactions with them by my arms ache and I wanna sleep as I've said so much in the last 4 hours my arms are not wanting to contuine and my brain wants dreams.

[Naomi-Tan]

Hey we actually managed to get an alisae/HS/Gamma townblock off the ground. And we all actually voted Flubb independently. :3

Now if only you two would let AA in .=.

Can you give me the foundation of your AA read? I can't place them ATM so wanna know why your actions make you think there Green aligned.

[Naomi-Tan]

So in other words, you have no clue why my slip was even a slip so you vote for me instead of the person KNOWS ABOUT THE DAYCHAT STATUS OF THIS GAME

She knows the day chat status of the game?

We haven't had an encryptor flip or host telling us otherwise?

Did you ever bring this up when Naomi's slip was first brought up?

As someone who spent most of yesterday looking over that area to answer stuff I can confirm at the time of the original slip he first sided with me until the cop claim where he unvoted and later when RD pushed for a grey train he sided with neither saying it was TvT at least by the end.

[Naomi-Tan]

Okay so.. this assumes that 100% of Reds was defending me day one. While RD was defending me so was the following people; Human Sequencer, Gamma, Gin, Alisae and krylea

I was referring to dashie. It doesn't assume anything else.

Yes but the way you phrased it made it look worse than it was.

[Naomi-Tan]

Seemed to be implied by what gin said

Also you don't sound very down right now and scum has no reason to be posting

Get lynched

Could you reveal what you are gonna flip so we could start working on the next days research? Im trying to get myself motivated and I'm hoping to help me get a fix on people from others interactions but its not something im used to doing as I can't really trust most peoples alignments.

[Naomi-Tan]

i'm sorry but Think Big and whoever else is in the neighborhood isn't cleared. Ya'll can put them lower on the list if you want but they certainly aren't clear. ThinkBig outing the neighborhood doesn't make him obv town either. Sure ya'll can disagree with me but he isn't clear.

I still think Naomi is a good lynch and given that flubber was town, Alisae makes a good lynch also but i want her to respond to my request for examples of opportunistic and discrediting.

Why? Like I didn't push flubber or talk about them? why is them being town making me look bad? This is a confusing statement.

As for the POE; Why has two face spent the entire game railroading me when we are on the same team?

[Naomi-Tan]

And by confusing I mean like your literally grasping at straws.

[Naomi-Tan]

I have scum read you since day 1 and I have not yet seen anything from you that makes me change my opinion. how is that confusing?

Well Its confusing that you'd connect something i had nothing to do with, with me.

[Naomi-Tan]

Hold on a sec. I just noticed that Rainbowdash flipped Mafia Ascetic. With a serial killer, there may be only two members of the Mafia instead of three.

UNVOTE:

While I re-evaluate.

I dont think thats possible the game is already kinda town tilted.

[Naomi-Tan]

Hold up.. Why was Gin killed last night? I don't think he was especially strong as a green member and it doesn't make much sense to me. hold on I wanna look at gins reads.

PEDIT; I'm gonna answer that after I look at gins reads as im a little paranoid about that.. given it could be 1 red and I wanna see gins take as gin was just killed so I'm hopig they was on the right lines.

[Naomi-Tan]

Okay So I looked up Gin. Looks like he was planning to push AA today. so they might be a red. As thats the only reason I can think of that the red team would shoot them. I wanna look up RD's interactions with AA to see if there is a link there before voting just to be certain. (as I know we can do better than just blind voting at this stage)

[Naomi-Tan]

Okay So I looked up Gin. Looks like he was planning to push AA today. so they might be a red. As thats the only reason I can think of that the red team would shoot them. I wanna look up RD's interactions with AA to see if there is a link there before voting just to be certain. (as I know we can do better than just blind voting at this stage)

Well RD did say stuff like they was green at one point. but I don't feel that this is a line that needs follow up. Right now we have 2 people on that team and if they are a neighbour then tomorrow a 3rd person will join it. and then we'll know for sure (assuming the target isn't killed or AA) so I don't think we should work on this today but its something I'm baring in mind.

[Naomi-Tan]

11. Human Sequencer
12. Alisae

3. Asphodel
10. All Alone

5. TwoFace
1. Gamma Emerald

Okay... so if Green is in the first bracket who are the most likely people to be red in the other two brackets. Eliminating the masons. -

Wait gamma;s up thats 3? right so. if gamma confirms this we can say AA is confirmed.

Who was recruited last night? As they are not confirmed (as your not told till day is up)

[Naomi-Tan]

Town pool
11. Human Sequencer
12. Alisae
10. All Alone

Red Pool
3. Think Big
5. TwoFace
1. Gamma Emerald

So with that elimination done. and I'm thinking one of those 3 must connect to another for a 3 red setup to work.. so.. I'm going off to foot work any links between TB TF and GE.

[Naomi-Tan]

Please try to be more succinct and concise in your posting. I can't understand what you're trying to say.

Oh sorry I was literally posting as I was coming up with it. basically as there is 1 neighbouriser and 2 Neighbours that means the first neighbour is green (as AA would been NK'd last night) and AA is green (as there are more people than there is on the red team)

[Naomi-Tan]

Neighbour 1 must be green as must AA

[Naomi-Tan]

I really do not like how Naomi-Tan is throwing shades everywhere. Her entire ISO is inconsistent and she has shown no logical consistency with her reads. @Naomi, why are you SR'ing me and Gamma?

POE.

11. Human Sequencer (prob town)
12. Alisae (prob town)
10. All Alone (Conf. town)

3. Think Big
5. TwoFace
1. Gamma Emerald

Within those last 3 there must be 1 conf town (the person who was recruited N1) and the rest must be red if we have 2 reds.

[Naomi-Tan]

I really do not like how Naomi-Tan is throwing shades everywhere. Her entire ISO is inconsistent and she has shown no logical consistency with her reads. @Naomi, why are you SR'ing me and Gamma?

Also its not tossing shade. I noticed that gin was killed then went to check gins read. cross refrenced that with RD's read on AA then thought if it was a good thing to do. then upon seeing 3 people was in the group (and knowing there isn't 3 reds) I worked out that the roleclaim couldn't be faked as it is a Green role (upon checking the wiki) from there I went if AA is Green who is Green which gives me the first person recruited as the Red team would have no reason to allow AA to continue to live. As you join the chat the next day and gin died last night that confirms the first person recruited into AA's pool.

[Naomi-Tan]

VOTE: Two-Face

I just worked out that no matter which one is confirmed TF will be a red here. given he has also pushed me all game and generally has been shading me all game.

[Naomi-Tan]

Wait... I think I made a mistake that doesn't confirm AA http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Neighborizer According to the wiki it can be either alignment where I assumed it was a Green only role. Urgh so confused >_<

So.. now If AA is Red they would of lived and confirmed no one.. Urgh >_< just when I thought things was piecing together they fall apart AGAIN.

[Naomi-Tan]

Naomi's logic has flaws all over, but it's not necessarily scummy.
You're still incredibly hard to follow and I still don't really understand what you're trying to say.
How does AA's first recruit become confirmed town? That was Ircher, and he was nightkilled.

Well Given I don't think there are any protection roles left Why would the reds kill Gin over AA if they knew AA's role. In this situation AA has to be green though else its a mute point. cause if there Red then the red have no reason To kill them.

IF AA is Green. Then the first person must be Green else they wouldn't be alive today and gin would
IF AA is Red. Then the first person is not confirmed.

[Naomi-Tan]

yeah I was red. I was an enabler for encryptor. It was my gambit they would flip first and i'd be confirmed from it. But meh. So yeah also im a traitor. so I have no idea who the last red is at all. I couldn't work it out :/

[Naomi-Tan]

So yeah thats a thing. So Yeah we had day talk but as traitor I had no access to it. and I had no idea who my team was.. so I just sorta played like normal so.. most of what happened was me getting lost by the alignments of people not matching the reads I got off them :/

[Naomi-Tan]

In action caused by not knowing friend from foe and not wanting to do much... It didn't help that that slip happened though I may of been planning to use it after it came out but I could never recover..

[Naomi-Tan]

IMO this games setup is kinda fucked. Two enablers, one for what I'm guessing is green for a red alingment (once again traitor so I have no idea who is town and red) and one of them is for an obvious red power role. It was just bleh. then again there might not even BE day talk and I might just been fucked by the mod as enabler doesn't have to have its companion role. but how fucked would that be? like our roles are so wonky in this game >_< Im not sure why this is a norm TBH. with double enabler traitor recruiter Sk there is a lot of fuckery.

[Naomi-Tan]

Which means there was 2, but Jordan thought that was a little weak, so he gave them a traitor.
I will likely die tonight.
Do not lynch Gamma, do not lynch TB.
Mafia had daytalk, keep that in mind while looking over Day 1 searching for associations between Dashie and others.

I dunno. If there was an encryptor I wasn't allowed in the thread. so there might not have been. this entire game was wonky.

[Naomi-Tan]

Green Roles
Cop (2 shot)
Jailor
Enabler Astictic
Townisier.

Third party
SK

Red roles
Traitor, Encryptor enabler
???
Astectic

You see why I said it favoured greens?

[Naomi-Tan]

On D1 I really did believe RD was town and thought that was just a great post on Grey XD I was buddying my own partner without knowing haha

[Naomi-Tan]

I'm probably dead tonight. Good luck town!

Lynch TF tomorrow.

stop being retarded AA is dead for giving mason to everyone duh.

[Naomi-Tan]

Oh btw, I never took any Kills XD as I didnt know I was meant to.

[Naomi-Tan]

Good catch TB. I don't know the alignment of my team.

[Naomi-Tan]

Good catch TB. I don't know the alignment of my team.

I mean I don't know who they are.

[Naomi-Tan]

I don't I wasn't told who my team mates was.

[Naomi-Tan]

you are a Traitor, and you do not know your faction members
You are aligned with the Mafia and win when the Mafia is the last faction standing.

[Naomi-Tan]

I extracted a section from my role pm so yeah... thats a thing.. im a non-normal Traitor apperently. Oh Also the Mod preveiously approved this so i'll quote this too


Im already dead? we're in twilight.

[Naomi-Tan]

you enable Encryptors while you are alive. Until you die, all Encryptors will function properly. Upon your death, all Encryptors cannot function. There is NO GUARANTEE that there are encryptors at all

[Naomi-Tan]

See you see why I been like what the hell? you try working out who is red and who is green while trying to look green and avoiding your highest red picks and see if you dont end up with a soup of players are are either confirmed or not confirmed Like the only people I was sure was green was HS and ani. what the heck XD

[Naomi-Tan]

I think i'm gonna need a new wiki section for this game, as its neither Red meta or Green meta or Yellow meta, its, its own thing.. like.. this game should be excluded from my meta

[Naomi-Tan]

yeah..

[Naomi-Tan]

Well guess I'll reque now. If anyone wants to play with me again feel free to follow

[Naomi-Tan]

Turns out the next game in que is a large. so guess not yet XD

[Naomi-Tan]

TB you make a greeat point I should join the large. Tally Ho!

[Naomi-Tan]

Well guess I'll reque now. If anyone wants to play with me again feel free to follow

i like playing with town you but I am about to go to disney so no mafia games until I come back.

though it's getting harder and harder to sign up when there's so many people I don't want to play with anymore

You just like me cause im good at reading you most games XD

[Naomi-Tan]

Long twilight..

[Naomi-Tan]

I extracted a section from my role pm so yeah... thats a thing.. im a non-normal Traitor apperently. Oh Also the Mod preveiously approved this so i'll quote this too


Im already dead? we're in twilight.

Wait you extracted part of your role pm?
That's breaking the rules.

yes Im hammered so I just thought I'd share that because I was frustrated XD

[Naomi-Tan]

Yes friends XD

[Naomi-Tan]

Wahahaha I get a bah post! XD So here is a puzzle

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AESTHETIC, COP, ENABLER, ENCRYPTOR, GREEN, JAILOR, MAFIA, RED, SLIP, TOWN, TRAITOR,


Your welcome XD (jeez making this in a table took a long time!)

[Naomi-Tan]

Adding a SK + Traitor was an interesting choice. Though I think that may have actually made it a bit town sided.

IMO it was very town sided. As if any red member died we lost day talk (As Only RD and TF had access to it) and as I didn't know who my allies was it was harder for me. We also had a enabler for the astectic which sucked.. Like.. the moment we lost RD we lost all our Poweroles at the same time.

[Naomi-Tan]

So.. we had a an extremely low chance of victory given the setup :/ Im not sure how this crossed normalisation check.

[Naomi-Tan]

I didn't know my faction.