STEVEN UNIVERSE 2 - GAME OVER

[mastin2]

Like.
mastina is a creature born of paranoia and self-doubt. RR knows this. Both heads have seen it in countless games. This one among them. I doubt. I question everything. I will always, always find a way to second-guess my decisions.
I am deliberately shutting that part of me down.
In a conscious decision.

For better or for worse.
I am making the call that I will. not. budge. On my stance here.

I am not lynching grapes while RR is alive.

I make this choice because I feel it is the same weakness that Cephrir was able to exploit.
If I stick by my guns, even if I am wrong, then I have contributed to a push.
And here, there is a reasonable percentage--well above normal--that I am right.

So I'm not going to let myself back down. Normally I would. And obviously I'd back down if proven wrong. If RR was lynched and the game continued, there's all the proof I need I was wrong, so there's all the proof necessary to keep me from defending grapes.

Where I am coming from is basically this: I see great harm coming from me second-guessing myself and the second-guess to be wrong with the original being right.
I see zero harm coming from me standing my ground and then being proven wrong.

In short--if RR is scum, me backing down here is nothing but a bad thing.
If RR is town, me getting them lynched might not be the best of things...but I also see no harm coming from it.

Simple risk/reward, cost/benefit analysis.

I lose nothing but my pride if RR flips town. (Disagree? Tell me how I'm wrong then. Because yeah. I lose no real asset by being shown wrong.)
I lose my best and maybe only shot of winning the game if I back down from lynching a scum!RR today. (This is self-explanatory.)

[mastin2]

Like.

How hard is it to accommodate a simple request?

If you truly believe. RR is town. Or in RR's case, if they truly ARE town. How hard is it to make a plan involving lynching them today?
How hard is it to create a situation where we have tomorrow to do what you want done today? Grapes is literally the ONLY possible way we have two scum alive, right? Is there anyone here who believes it's possible to have a second scum with neither of them being grapes? Anyone?
'Cause if not. This shit literally writes itself. Lynch RR. Game doesn't end? Lynch grapes tomorrow. grapes flips scum, game doesn't end? Still got one left. Grapes flips town? Still got one left. 4p mylo, and we determine from there who the last scum would be.

How hard is it to create a plan around that?

Now you might ask.
"Mastina, why doesn't that work the other way? What makes it so hard to lynch grapes today, and then RR tomorrow?"

For that...*points to literally the entire game thread*...I've been trying to get RR dead.

RR couldn't be lynched D1.
RR couldn't be lynched D2.
RR couldn't be vigged last night.
I'm having a fight of my life to get RR lynched today, and if it weren't for MY FUCKING POWER, then I'd have failed and we'd be in night already because RR would be alive and grapes would be dead.

Shiro is townreading RR.
randomidget is townreading RR.
Almost50 has stated he'd rather lose the game than lynch RR.
It'd take literally ALL of grapes/Fuzzy/MoI/myself to get RR to so much as L-1. Yet alone a lynch!
And even there! grapes has moved away from RR,

even though that's the only lynch which can save grapes

.
Fuzzy moved off of RR onto grapes and doesn't look interested in returning.
MoI has suspected RR the whole damn game but refuses to lynch him.

So damn right I'm demanding we do it this way around, not the other. Because the other way around, and RR never gets lynched.

[mastin2]

Also:

Mod: V/LA from December 23rd through December 27th

.
Not that this should surprise anybody, given...yaknow.

[Reasonably Rational]

So what you're saying is that only your pride matters. You realize that we've been mislynched ONCE EVER, and that's featured in our signature.

Individually, we also both pride ourselves on not being mislynched. There's a really good reason the people you listed who are town reading us are town reading us. I mean, for fuck's sake we got to Grapes by PoE and pushed the wagon on him, and even he said we're town. They aren't saying that because they like us. In fact, I think our snark and Cerb's outright arrogance and dismissiveness make us a lot less likable in text than we both are in person or on voice comms. You're the only one who is deliberately choosing to ignore all evidence that we're town and deliberately choosing to cherry pick and manipulate the FUCK out of all sorts of shit to try and say we're scum. Like ... if Yume hadn't specifically said that the moderator posted in a PT that you are for sure 100% town, I would at this point assume you are scum ... that's how irrational you have been with this shit.

You're really going to hold the game hostage so you can get us mislynched? And who's to say that you won't keep holding the game hostage to your whims after that? You don't seem to understand the alliance system because if you submit nobody and Grapes is scum and submits you, he gets your protection. Your little stunt here is literally giving a posited scum!Grapes all he needs to make it to M/LYLO, and if there are 2 scum (which is plausible if you actually invest the time to evaluate the game with all the flips we've seen and what we know) and the other is well enough hidden, your bullshit pride "I was lucky enough to be mod confirmed town to one person who told the rest of you, so you have to do what I say" stunt will

literally cost us the game

, which should be a fucking slam dunk win.

But so long as you get to keep your pride intact? Are you being serious with this shit?

~Drixx

[Almost50]

If we don't lynch RR today, then I'm going to ally with grapes again.

As I've declared before; everybody gets a taste of their own cooking. I will be the first to tell you I will not be voting RR until grapes is gone. In fact, I'm not going to vote ANYONE until grapes is gone.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Mastin

- you know if Grapes is scum you have no choice in allying with him, right? That's part of his role as claimed in our PT.

[Almost50]

I realize that's potentially holding the game hostage.

And that's exactly what's pissing me off right now. This is a team game, not a superstar event with minions serving them all around. You have but only one vote and you should never try to force your view on the rest of us. I have as much right as you do to have a say, and even be wrong about it. You trying to arrange our play according to your own amusement is unacceptable by any means. Sorry. No can do.

[Almost50]

@Mastina:

Btw, if scum knew about your alliance giving you that bonus; then certainly grapes should have been NK'd at night because they already knew a push on him won't bear fruits. That is IF GRAPES WAS TOWN.

If RR -in particular- were scum, they would have requested Fuzzy shoots grapes instead of farside, requested me to -say- investigate THEM to verify they didn't take action, and then came today with their push on farside with full thrust based on the night action results.

Picture this:

I get a result that RR didn't act. Fuzzy shoots grapes. Shiro was bubbled. You and the Gems are confirmed. It virtually leaves no room to argue about farside eating rope, with myself and Fuzzy being the "back-up suspects" when she flips Town.

[Almost50]

(Just for the lulz, went and checked: it was farside who suggested I ally with grapes. MoI gave his stamp of approval for that, too. Almost50, like me, probably forgot about my alliance power, though he's probably gonna feel mighty stupid when he realizes what just happened.)

Not really. I'm resigned to the fact my memory has developed more holes in it than moon cheese. *Shrug*

But yes, I did get notified of that power.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So now that I've had few hours to digest while driving home and eating dinner and helping sprout with a project I think I can make a reasonable post without going berserk. This will mainly have two sections - one directed to Mastin and one directed to RR.

--

First Mastin - while I was driving home and mulling over your recent posts my gut reaction to was immediately come into the thread with a "Fuck you and the horse you rode in on" vote for Fuzzy. I don't like ultimatums. In fact one for my wife (well she was a girlfriend at the time) came a hairs breath from having her not be my wife. Which would have made my life much worse I think. I would not have her or my daughter and I can't imagine living in a world without them. But it was close. That's how poorly I react to "My way or the highway" declarations. I write this all to give you an understanding of where the next part comes from.

I'm still miffed as fuck about how you approached this. I've already laid out my thoughts on why I voted grapes. I don't particularly care if you don't think there is the possibility of a recruitable Leftover. This game is pretty damn complicated and I think it is impossible to fully parse from a non-spoiled perspective. So you outright handwaving away the possibility on the back of your grapes read leaves me non-plussed. You can't argue that scum is over-powered from what we know. And ever since Kraska flipped with the ability to Confirm herself in 3 Player LYLO I've been torn about the possibility of a Leftover counterpart to XK. And only grapes makes sense as that possible Leftover given her claim.

So the fact that you so easily dismiss that him being flipped to absolutely solidify 1 versus 2 scum is Pro Town because you have a bug up your ass to lynch RR makes me mad. I don't really care how strongly you read RR as scum or strongly you read grapes as Town. Because as I laid out why his flip is game-breaking - Shiro being confirmed Town with a grapes Town flip locks this down without a hint of failure. Too many players that are rock solid Town for two many reasons. Yet you are standing and saying "This is my game and you are going to play how I say".

So again - part of me wants to vote Fuzzy right now. Because in either scenario he is a possible scum candidate. He can be solo scum who could not fire both a Vig and a Mafia kill at Night. Just as easily as RR being solo scum who chose to No Kill to frame Fuzzy or who tried to kill me or Random because he was "empowered". I don't buy the second very much if Drixx and Cerb are as smart as you say because Commuting is the one absolute "cannot fuck with" ability in NAR. Strongmanning a kill beats Bulletproof. It beats Doc. It beats Roleblock. But it loses to a Commute every day of the week. So your "Hey they tried to kill you" requires them to have derped on a level that I don't think makes sense for competent players. Fuzzy can just as easily be scum with grapes if grapes lacks the ability to fire off the Mafia kill And some of his recent posting makes me want him gone even if he is Town. I mean selling "I didn't vote during Beach-a-palooza" as a reason he's Town? Moonbeams of epic proportions.

So part of me wants to say "I'm taking this team on my back and dragging you to victory despite Mastin's temper tantrum". And believe me it is taking a great bit of restraint to not just do that. Because I can move forward regardless of your wishes. Your protection of grapes only extends so far. And I have huge concerns that your "I'll sheep you tomorrow" is meaningless if I am not alive to be sheeped. And I absolutely want to stick it in your face for your little "hahaha MoI approved of us allying sucks to be him reaping instant karma" comments you've dropped several times since your reveal.

But I'm not voting this second as I want to see what Random thinks and where everyone else's head is at. I'm sure Shiro would join on voting out Fuzzy. Almost appears to be taking a contrarian "I'm keeping my vote useless" stance.

--

Next RR - here's the thing guys ... you have done yourself no favors since I replaced into this game. For every reason you give as to "Why I can't be scum" I can find a perfectly reasonable hole in those arguments. And on a gut level your reaction to me and my early suspicion of you specifically still I think smells of scum - you tried hard to sell me as OMGUSing and not being reasonable for suspecting you. And (yes I fully understand the irony of what I am about to say) your "We're better than you" general attitude is almost as grating as "Lol, Imma troll" players. And I haven't bothered to say this to grapes but when I see "We've only been mislynched once" my gut reaction is - that's not something to be proud of. Frankly it means you are more interested in staying alive than pushing for scum in ways that can be very useful but leave you open to being strung up if you are wrong. And instinctively it makes me want to vote you even if you are Town in hopes it will help grind that attitude out of you. But I don't make votes for reasons like that so late in a game that still is in doubt.

And while I'm irritated as fuck at mastin he has one thing going for him - he's confirmed Town. And no matter how much dealing with his power-trip today is abhorrent he still is not going to be on my lynch list. So giving him this lynch from a pool of possible scum isn't the end of the world.

So I guess what I am saying is - think long and hard about what you have in your playbook that would make me think I should tell mastin to sod off and go a different way. And make it compelling which means not including statements about how obviously Town you are or how much you have been right about in the game so far. That dog don't hunt.

[TheFuzzylogic99]

I hate that I am put down and I am made to be stupid.......Honestly I am one step from committing Harry Karri bc tomorrow I am going to be mislynched anyways

I have proven a Gem could be scum and everyone just ignores me........ I am not saying Random or MOI is one but its possible

Anyways the moment I put this out I was just dismissed as being a dumb notion.....Even now I am accused of trying to lynch conftown when I prove this might not be the case.....After I prove that scum mason could exsist.
Yeah I might just be paranoid as anything but mybe not

Given
a) sky flip with Pearl account
b) the fact I have proven scum gems could exsist
c) given the nature of this game- it being weird and having weird roles
d) having 5 conf mason town plus Steven plus a conf town in Kras seems a hell of a lot conf town

I don't care if I am mislynched today or tomorrow......I really believe it likely that there could be scum in the Mason.

Here scum......
since you are going to mislynch me anyways

Vote Fuzzy

[TheFuzzylogic99]

Heck the town is just bound and determine to lose
so come on town lets get it over and lynch the obvious lynch bait

Vote Fuzzy
Vote FUZZY
Vote Fuzzy

[Almost50]

Almost appears to be taking a contrarian "I'm keeping my vote useless" stance.

It's not useless if it's on scum, but it's even more or a principle.

HOWEVER, you want analysis? I'll give you analysis:

Let's ASSUME grapes is the NOT the last lonely scum here. Just play with me. We mislynch Fuzzy, and they do NOT shoot tonight. Tomorrow we are 5 vs 2 with 4 to lynch, except grapes keeps his alliance with Mastina, and it's not yet LyLo/MyLo so 6 votes to lynch him (i.e. he is unlynchable).

Now, let's say we do lynch his scum buddy (that would be Shiro in this precise hypothetical assumption) and we enter the night as 5 vs 1 and he shoots someone (say me) and keeps his alliance with Mastina still, and -again- he is unlynchable.

4 vs 1 and Mastina is still stubborn, so you lynch RR and .. surprise surprise .. with so many players who could have been conf!Town at this point (regardless of who dies it looks like there still would have been 3 out of the last 5) the scum are given a 1-shot double kill for compensation. Game over!

Now let's go back and ASSUME grapes is the LONELY SCUM ALIVE and redo the math. We mislynch Fuzzy, he shoots me (again, say) and he keeps his alliance with Mastina since it's be 5 vs 1 tomorrow so he is unlynchable (4 to lynch +2 additional = he must vote himself). Only Mastina wants RR lynched, so we do that and it's 4 vs 1 going into the night. NO KILL. He keeps his alliance with her and is still unlynchabe. Now you have 2 choices:

1- Keep on NOT lynching and he keeps NOT killing and the game ends in a draw.
2- Lynch Shiro (out of boredom) or Mastina (out of frustration) and grapes shoots the other one thus instantly winning the game for wiping out the Earth faction even if both you and random are still alive.

Note that I the second scenario I didn't even include the possibility of any additional compensation given to the scum for the sheer amount of confirmed Town aligned players (Earth or Gems) potentially making it to LyLo/MyLo.

The right move now is to lynch grapes and nobody else, and nobody allies with Mastina. If the game ends then we have won. If it doesn't then we know the last scum isn't protected by an unattainable lynch threshold.

I've considered alternative scenarios for today but I don't have the info to verify their validity, and some even I would consider to be an "ugly" course to take.

For example: I can follow you and lynch Fuzzy, and you bubble grapes tonight and then execute him regardless of there being an NK or not. I obviously don't know the requirements or conditions of your bubbling ability, plus if a kill does occur it would ideally be on me so Mastina would still use that to stick it on RR and get them lynched. She gets NK'd and it's the 2nd scenario above.

We can also go for NL today, but with no NK tonight we are back in the same situation tomorrow.

Or we can yield and lynch RR (I still assert I'm against yielding on principle though) and then I get NK'd, grapes is unlynchable, so you guys lynch the wrong one of Fuzzy/Shiro and the GAME IS OVER WITH THE NEXT NK ON MASTINA.

One last proposition is we No Lynch and you guys bubble MASTINA (this is the ugly proposition) thus preventing grapes from keeping the alliance with her, and we can lynch him tomorrow and the game goes as it would have today (except there is still a possibility one of us dies by night).

Now even in that ugly course I'm not on top of all info, so I don't know if you are BP, bc if you're not then grapes shooting you messes everything up again.

NOTE: DO NOT CLARIFY ANYTHING. What I don't know I do NOT need to know. Let's not give the remaining scum (whether it be one or two) additional info they should not have access to.

So, you see.. every scenario has it's ups and downs and is very much subject to hypothetical assumptions (they're hypothetical because we don't know for sure. We're just inspecting the possibilities and outcomes).

[Almost50]

@Mastina:

When you said:

My power doesn't work in lylo situations,

which includes mylo.

Is the bolded included in your PM or is it your own interpretation/understanding?? I ask because I noticed scum are keeping us on even numbers. We were 10 and now we're 8 and we will likely be 6 tomorrow, so I want to know for sure if MyLo IS explicitly mentioned in your role PM. Thank you.

[Varsoon]

I will not be enforcing prods until after the New Year.
Happy Holidays, you wonderful people.

[TheFuzzylogic99]

unvote

Well that emotional outburst did not help.it felt good but was useless
Okay maybe we need to step back and check our emotions.... I think several players might be thinking through their emotions including me

What we know

Night 1: There was no scum kill. So we have a RB or fail to shoot

Night 2 Klingon was Killed

Night 3- NC was killed by scum

Night 4- Scum unleased the cluster Killing Titus , McMemo and Xk

Night 5 there was a no kill....we cant be sure ( unless MOi wants or can share info) that it was a scum kill. Since I did not vig night 5 and there doesn't seem to be any other person in this game its safe to assume that it was
a prevented scum kill. Not sure if bubbles count as kills but I am guessing not.

okay this is where it gets weird.......The scum seems to stop killing

Night 6
There was no Kill...... so either scum tried to kill and failed or did not shoot that night


Night 7- Scum could not kill.....however we can not be sure that scum was going to kill. As far as we know they could be sitting on their but playing with their thumbs.

Night 8- The scum makes no kills

we know that atleast 2 night scum did not take any action.......this might be 3 but we cant be sure until the game is over

Lets say that 7 scum was going to make a kill but cant that means that there are two unexplained no kill

Night 6 no NK
a) RB
b) did not take a shot

Night 8 no Nk
a) I am scum and I used my vig and could not kill
b) RB
c) did not take shot
d) the scum was a gem and could not make an action

as you see I have been fair and accurate ......even though I am town I did not eliminate the idea I could be scum from the possibilities/ I think everyone can agree on these facts

[TheFuzzylogic99]

VCA

Day 1-

SirCakez

(LYNCH):

Not Chara

,

mastin2

,

Titus , McMenno

, grapes, Shiro,

Xkfyu, SnarkySnowman, Yume, Kraskaeaque, Klingoncelt

, Reasonably Rational

Farside22

(3): MOI,

Firebringer

, Almost50
Shiro (2):

Farside22

,

Skybird

McMenno

(2):

Blades , Thefuzzylogic99

Obi-Wan Kenobi

(1):

SirCakez

Not Voting (5):

Shadow

, randomidget,

TheWayItEnds

,

DrippingGoofball

,

Creature

Vote 2

Mathblade

(LYNCH):

mastin2

, Almost50,

Xkfyu, McMenno

,

DrippingGoofball

Yume, Titus, Creature Farside22, Not Chara

grapes,

Mathblade, Firebringer

DrippingGoofball

(3):

Klingoncelt, SnarkySnowman

, Shiro

Shadow_Step

(1):

Kraskaeaque

Farside22

(1): randomidget
grapes (1): MOI

X

kfyu

(1):

Skybird

TheFuzzyLogic99 (1):

Shadow_Step

Not Voting (3): Reasonably Rational,

TheWayItEnds

, TheFuzzylogic99

Vote 3

Farside22

(LYNCH?):

Titus, SnarkySnowman

, MagnaofIllusion,

TheWayItEnds, DrippingGoofball, Skybird

,

Yume, Xkfyu, Not Chara, McMenno

,

Kraskaeaque

, Almost50

DrippingGoofball

(3): Shiro, Thefuzzylogic99,

Creature

SnarkySnowman

(3):

mastin2

, grapes,

Farside22

Kraskaesque

(1):

Shadow_Step

Shadow_Step

(1):

Firebringer

Not Voting (2): Reasonably Rational, randomidget

DrippingGoofball

(LYNCH): Thefuzzylogic99,

SnarkySnowman

, MagnaofIllusion,

Creature, Titus

, Shiro,

Firebringer

, grapes,

McMenno, Farside22, Not Chara

SnarkySnowman (2): mastin2, TheWayItEnds

Farside22

(1):

Almost50

Shadow_Step

(1):

Kraskaeaque

Not Voting (5):

Shadow_Step

,

Xkfyu

,

DrippingGoofball,

Reasonably Rational, randomidget

Vote 4

SnarkySnowman

(LYNCH):

mastin2, Creature, McMenno, Farside22

TheWayItEnds (2):

SnarkySnowman, Titus

Shadow_Step

(1): Almost50
Thefuzzylogic99 (1):

Shadow_Step

Not Voting (9):

Xk

fyu,

Shiro, Reasonably Rational, grapes,

Kraskaeaque

, MagnaofIllusion, Thefuzzylogic99, randomidget,

TheWayItEnds

Vote5

TheWayItEnds

(LYNCH):

Kraska77

,

mastin2

, ReasonablyRational,

Creature,

Thefuzzylogic99, Almost50,

Farside22

Creature (2): MagnaofIllusion,

Shadow_Step

Kraska77

(1): grapes

Not Voting (3): Shiro, randomidget,

TheWayItEnds

Vote 6

Kraska77

(LYNCH):

Shadow_Step

,

Farside22

, grapes,

Kraska77, Creature

, Almost50, Shiro

Creature

(2): randomidget,

mastin2

Not Voting (3): Reasonably Rational, MagnaofIllusion, Thefuzzylogic99




Vote 7

Creature

(LYNCH!): Shiro, Almost50,

Shadow_Step

,

mastin2

, Reasonably Rational, MagnaofIllusion

Shadow_Step

(4):

Farside22, Creature

, Thefuzzylogic99, grapes

Not Voting (1): randomidget

Vote 8

Shadow_Step

(LYNCH):

mastin2, Farside22

, Shadow_Step, MagnaofIllusion,

Thefuzzylogic99

Thefuzzlylogic99 (1): Almost50

Not Voting (4): Reasonably Rational, grapes, randomidget

[mastin2]

So what you're saying is that only your pride matters.

No, quite the opposite.
It is my willingness to throw my pride away which motivates my action.

Bravery isn't backing down.
Bravery isn't blindly charging in and assuming you cannot be wrong.
True bravery is defined by going in

knowing you could be wrong

, yet choosing to go in anyway.

If I am wrong, I suffer an immense blow to my pride: I knew it was possible to be wrong, yet I chose to pursue that path anyway.
If I back down, then my pride is preserved regardless of right or wrong. Backing down is the "cautious" thing to do here. It is the "safe" thing to do. So if it were wrong to back down, I couldn't be blamed for having done so, especially given the chance it would be right to have done so.
So if I were worried about my pride. I'd back down.

But I'm not.

My concern is in lynching scum.

And you've continued to deny my one. simple. request.

I didn't ask for much.
I asked for you to give a plan after your death.
Instead, you have continuously. tried. to. avert. it. You have continuously spent time and effort avoiding the noose, rather than solving the game. Your posting right now? Not solving the game. Making a blind appeal to not be lynched. That's what you're doing. And that's why the scumread remains.

You're the only one who is deliberately choosing to ignore all evidence that we're town and deliberately choosing to cherry pick and manipulate the FUCK out of all sorts of shit to try and say we're scum.

What

evidence that you're town?
I've asked this of many!
None have told me. None have pointed conclusively.
What have I gotten? "...Gut?"
That's literally the evidence presented for you being town. You are town because those players' guts say so.

And who's to say that you won't keep holding the game hostage to your whims after that?

This is yet another appeal to fear and also runs in stark contrast to what you KNOW my personality to be. When I make a promise, I keep it. Period. FURTHERMORE. It's known that I have a turbulent INFP personality type--and if you've done your homework on what INFPs are like, you know that what that essentially means is that when I give the mantra, "I need a plan", I'm not fucking joking. If I don't have a plan, I am directionless. You personally saw this on both the days we lynched kraska and Creature. There were shades of this on prior days (we're talking D3-D4 here) too. When I have a direction, I will stick to that direction.

Holding the game hostage is part of one current plan. It is part of that plan, and that plan ONLY. When that plan has concluded, then I will have no plan. Ergo, there will be no whims. There will be no holding the game hostage. There will be nothing. Because a mastina who has been wrong above all else? Is

terrified

beyond all reason of being wrong a second time in a row. It's one thing to make a push and have it be wrong--it's quite another to make TWO pushes and have both end up wrong. Especially in a conftown position, especially in a leadership position, this is something I would never allow.

You don't seem to understand the alliance system because if you submit nobody and Grapes is scum and submits you, he gets your protection.

...And? The problem with this is...what, exactly?

My ability does not work in mylo.
If tomorrow, with six alive, is mylo, we can lynch grapes. BAM. Grapes dies, we have confirmation that there's a second mafia and that grapes was scum. Nothing lost.
If tomorrow, with six alive, is not mylo, we cannot lynch grapes. BAM. grapes was either solo scum (the fifth of the ruby squad with a Lapis Lazuli fakeclaim), or isn't scum. While we wouldn't be able to lynch him, it wouldn't matter--we could do so in 4p mylo. Or 5p if there was a method to break my alliance with him.
Those are literally the only two possibilities.
-grapes is scum with someone else? We lynch him tomorrow because my ability won't fucking protect him if it's mylo.
-grapes is scum with nobody else? We can't lynch him tomorrow, but he can't win, either, because it wouldn't be mylo.
-grapes isn't town? We can't lynch him tomorrow, but we shouldn't be aiming to.

There are no other options on the table.

if there are 2 scum and the other is well enough hidden, your stunt will

literally cost us the game

One, see above--if there are two scum alive, tomorrow is mylo in which case...grapes can be fucking lynched because my fucking power, which I fucking know, doesn't fucking work in mylo. As I have been saying.
Two. Even if by some shenanigans it did--your point being? The other scum was well enough hidden. What's the difference between lynching the hidden scum in 6p mylo and lynching the hidden scum in 4p mylo? There literally isn't any. Either you find the hidden scum and win, or you don't find the hidden scum and lose. It doesn't matter which day it happens on.

Simple facts.

Also.
Tell me!
If grapes does in fact have a scumbuddy...
...Who is that scumbuddy?

Do tell.
You certainly have been silent on that front!

[mastin2]

You have but only one vote and you should never try to force your view on the rest of us.

The funny thing is, I'm doing exactly that. I am using my only vote and not forcing my view on the rest of you.

It just so happens that you can't lynch grapes without my vote, though.
So the effect is the same.

I refuse to vote grapes.
I am not dictating RR's death. It is my vote. It is what I have said. I have said I will ally with grapes as long as RR lives. This I have said and done.
But I will not force it.

I'd vote either Fuzzy or yourself to avoid a no-lynch.
I would not fight against a wagon on Fuzzy or yourself, so that if you in fact got lynched I wouldn't care either way. If it happened, it happened, and was the choice of other players to happen. So that could happen. Fuzzy could die. You could die. It wouldn't be my preference. But it would be something I'd allow all the same.

So it's not like I'm running a complete dictatorship.
It's not like I'm giving absolutely zero wiggle room whatsoever.

I simply have made one choice: not to vote grapes.
I am sticking by that choice. And it doesn't matter if your choice runs counter to mine. If you refuse to vote anyone other than grapes. So be it. But know that doing so has its consequences, because by doing so you are reducing the chance of ANY lynch going through and 100% preventing the death of grapes. Because grapes lives as long as I do, unless I have reason to change my mind. So by lynching someone (or no lynching) that will not change my mind, you simply ensure grapes lives that much longer.

[mastin2]

Picture this: I get a result that RR didn't act. Fuzzy shoots grapes. Shiro was bubbled. You and the Gems are confirmed. It virtually leaves no room to argue about farside eating rope, with myself and Fuzzy being the "back-up suspects" when she flips Town.

Which again runs into the problem of farside being fucking confirmed town and thus unlynchable. Meaning farside's out. You STILL have 7/8 alive. And you still have a suspect pool of RR/Fuzzy/Almost50

at largest

. Leading to a guaranteed town win.

Because farside was fucking unlynchable.

RR knew this.

[mastin2]

while I was driving home and mulling over your recent posts my gut reaction to was immediately come into the thread with a "Fuck you and the horse you rode in on" vote for Fuzzy.

There is no "fuck you" which you can give, Magna.

No-lynch? grapes lives. Lynch Fuzzy? grapes lives. Lynch Almost50? grapes lives.
grapes lives no matter what I do, so long as I don't vote grapes.
Meaning, the one thing you want to deliver as a fuck-you, you can't. Any result which is not a grapes lynch, I am okay with.

I have my preference, of course. I would prefer we lynch RR.
RR's scum? Game ends, right then and there.
RR's town? We can put this shit to rest right here and now. We can put the whole damn issue to the side. You get me shutting up. You get my help, rather than my antagonism. I work with you, rather than against you.

So naturally, I would prefer RR's death.

But while that is my preference, it is not the only option. I am well aware of this.

You can't argue that scum is over-powered from what we know.

And you can't argue that scum are underpowered either. Scum have exactly the level of power I expect them to have. Not more, not less.

So the fact that you so easily dismiss that him being flipped to absolutely solidify 1 versus 2 scum is Pro Town because you have a bug up your ass to lynch RR makes me mad.

You also forget this simple fact.

Really.
Painfully.
Simple.

Thanks to my ability, we learn if it's one or two scum left automatically if my alliance holds. Because. Again. My power doesn't work in mylo. With two scum alive and 6 players, that's mylo. So my power not fucking working would confirm grapes is scum.

Do you get my stance now?

Lynching grapes today gives us nothing we won't learn tomorrow. Absolutely nothing. We AUTOMATICALLY learn if it is mylo or not, thanks to my ability. By proxy, we AUTOMATICALLY learn if there is one scum left or two. So the lynch on grapes for mechanical reasons to confirm one versus two is, as far as I'm concerned: utter shit.

So if you want to convince me on grapes, don't go citing mechanics. You better be giving me damn good reasons to change my mind off of PLAY.

And I have huge concerns that your "I'll sheep you tomorrow" is meaningless if I am not alive to be sheeped.

And what's so hard about laying out a plan today?

This is what I've been fucking asking for pages.
What's so hard about laying out a plan accounting for all the known variables and alignment possibilities today?
Sure you can't keep it a secret--everything you post, scum would know too. But at this stage any plan made shouldn't really need to be kept from the scum and any plan made shouldn't be such that scum could possibly interfere.

Next RR - here's the thing guys ... you have done yourself no favors since I replaced into this game. For every reason you give as to "Why I can't be scum" I can find a perfectly reasonable hole in those arguments. And on a gut level your reaction to me and my early suspicion of you specifically still I think smells of scum - you tried hard to sell me as OMGUSing and not being reasonable for suspecting you. Frankly it means you are more interested in staying alive than pushing for scum in ways that can be very useful but leave you open to being strung up if you are wrong. And instinctively it makes me want to vote you even if you are Town in hopes it will help grind that attitude out of you. So giving [HER] this lynch from a pool of possible scum isn't the end of the world.

^This is not everything, but it does encompass a large part of the reason why RR is my scumread.

[mastin2]

the scum are given a 1-shot double kill for compensation. Game over!

One appeal to fear, banking on a theoretical unproven extra scum ability to kill.
Two, not possible because again.
My ability does not fucking work in mylo.
And it can be very visibly proven to not be mylo.

If scum have an extra kill, as you posit...then that extra kill pushes mylo to be a day earlier than it otherwise would be. (At least I'm almost positive of it. I'll need to confirm with Varsoon to put this theory to bed altogether.)

Which we can easily find out. By trying to lynch the player I'm in an alliance with. If it's mylo? They die. If it's not mylo? They live. That simple. So, extra kills? Not a problem. They won't be a threat.

[mastin2]

@Mastina:

My power doesn't work in lylo situations,

which includes mylo.

Is the bolded included in your PM or is it your own interpretation/understanding??

My initial PM said lylo, but I asked the mod if mylo was included. Varsoon said it EXPLICITLY is.

So to reiterate.

Absolutely. 100% clarity, certainty beyond all measure of doubt.

My power does not function in mylo.
It does not function in lylo.

If we were to run into either, then if I were in an alliance, we would know it was mylo/lylo because my fucking power wouldn't work.

Which is one reason why we know that grapes can live today. If today were mylo, he would be dead already because my power would not have saved him. In other words: there is NO situation where letting grapes live today causes a town loss. Absolutely none. It's impossible.

Which is why we can afford to humor me and lynch Reasonably Rational.

[Reasonably Rational]

Holy shit.

I wanted to address this with everything else, but you just keep stating it as though it's fact.

Two points.

1) FARSIDE WAS NOT CONFIRMED TOWN. As a matter of fact, yesterday NOBODY was arguing that she wasn't, in fact, third party. NOBODY expressed a belief that she was LIKELY to be town.
2) As a direct result of 1, Farside was, in fact, AN EASY lynch. Do you know why that is mastin? Because any game state that ends in a groupscum victory necessarily includes the death of TWO of the unlynchable slots(3 unlynchables now, at most 2 posited scum, scum always lose in lylo if that game state does not change). That means that farsides "protection" by yourself and MoI was IRRELEVANT. In any possible Mylo/Lylo situation, neither of you would be likely to be alive, making farside a VERY easy person to get lynched.

To answer you about your insistence that we lay out a plan for the future(when you yourself HAVE NO SUCH FUCKING PLAN(which is primarily relevant in that this is essentially the same plea being made by you, that is "listen to us today because this is absolutely what we feel is the path most likely to lead to victory, and if we're wrong we have no idea how we should proceed"):

This is what we told A50 and TFL last night, and this is where we're at, because there is compelling evidence against any of A50, Shiro, and TFL as scum(while NO SUCH EVIDENCE EXISTS FOR grapes!town)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Obviously we think you should shoot Farside and that the reasons are self-evident.

That said, If you're not going to shoot Farside, fuzzy, then you should shoot us. Cerb and I are in agreement that A50 is almost certainly town and we would rather be shot than mislynched by people who refuse to see reason.

Things to bear in mind going forward if you decide to shoot us so that you can help ensure this is a win instead of a loss:

Shadow scum claimed so assuming 100% his flip will be scum. At most there are two more (and the reason to be wary of this is because of how many slots the game has that aren't lynchable).

There are limited candidates for who can be scum. Positing you and A50 both as town means Grapes, I think. Grapes got "confirmed" as the target of a kill attempt by Skybird by TWIE's "Historical Fiction" event. The problem with that clear is that it could super easily be faked. Presumably scum knew what events and such they could all do and if they were competent at all they would have had a plan in place for a dead scum to "clear" a teammate giving a false claim of what they did and then TWIE claims he made that slot one of the three "true" ones, and really it's a set up. This also makes sense because Grapes is Lapis and started as a leftover along with Xykfu, and Xykfu joined the Crystal Gems, so it logically follows that Grapes could have joined scum.

In fact, that could have been a thing where the scum team just lucked into something. They may have actually shot at Grapes and had it fail and then he later joined them so TWIE pops the event and says he made Skybird's claim be adjusted to truth and then it "clears" someone who scum didn't realize was going to join them.

If you shoot us and lynch Grapes and it still doesn't end, I would personally lynch farside over A50, simply because we know for sure that A50 knew about Xykfu and there's simply no way the scum team would have taken an action that changed stress and allowed Xykfu to take out arguably their strongest member. That just doesn't make sense, and given that A50 knew about Xykfu and relayed to us the information about what he could do and the stress requirement, it just doesn't make sense.

If somehow the game STILL wasn't over at that point, then either you're scum or all of us have made assumptions about the setup which we should not have.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In order of "strength of evidence indicating they are not scum": mastin>gems>A50=Shiro>TFL>grapes. In other words, you lynch in the reverse of this order.

It's arguable that Shiro should be lower, primarily because the bubbling clear is conditional on only one scum existing, and the other reasons to believe him to be town rely upon him actually keeping up with a PT between Titus and us, which is far from guaranteed; however, the simple fact that shiro currently possesses a "if we get to 4 left alive without having lynched any more scum and the game is still going, shiro is definitely town" ability means coupled with the other reasons to posit him as town, he should be far from a potential lynchee.

-Cerb

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Almost

– regarding 11837 – I don’t care if it is on principle and a vote on scum – mastin has basically assured that grapes isn’t getting lynched. That means it is useless. Find another scum suspect to vote.

As to your analysis – The only thing I can say is I will not be bubbling Mastin regardless of how poorly his stance works out for Town. That’s just not viable. And I agree about not telegraphing what I can or cannot do in regards to bubbling or other abilities.

--

There is no "fuck you" which you can give, Magna.

Yes there is. Refusing to lynch RR at any point to deny you what you want. Now I will not do that long term as it would be the equivalent of game-throwing but I can settle for the minor version by not giving you what you want today if I wanted to be vindictive.

And you can't argue that scum are underpowered either. Scum have exactly the level of power I expect them to have. Not more, not less.

Absolutely true. But the basis for your “I am confident there is only one scum” seems to be some sort of power analysis. I don’t see why else you come to that conclusion even with your magical MYLO LYLO powers.

You also forget this simple fact.

Really.
Painfully.
Simple.

Thanks to my ability, we learn if it's one or two scum left automatically if my alliance holds. Because. Again. My power doesn't work in mylo. With two scum alive and 6 players, that's mylo. So my power not fucking working would confirm grapes is scum.

Do you get my stance now?

Lynching grapes today gives us nothing we won't learn tomorrow. Absolutely nothing. We AUTOMATICALLY learn if it is mylo or not, thanks to my ability. By proxy, we AUTOMATICALLY learn if there is one scum left or two. So the lynch on grapes for mechanical reasons to confirm one versus two is, as far as I'm concerned: utter shit.

I get your stance. I think it is pretty stubborn on your part but I can see where you are going. I’ve run the figures on a worst case scenario and grapes being Town means more a less a lock for Town regardless what day he is lynched and grapes being scum means a 3 Player LYLO with one of yourself / Myself / Random making the choice between two of (Almost / RR / Shiro).

The one hole in your logic that I see that I want you to absolutely check with Varsoon on – confirming you have to be alive for your MYLO / LYLO powers to work for your alliance member.

Because an easy way to blow a hole in the scenarios I’ve run if for you to die tonight and thus not being able to confirm grapes tomorrow via MYLO / LYLO. If that happens we take what I feel is a lock Town win if grapes is Town and lynched today as opposed to having to roll the dice on grapes tomorrow.

So double check with Varsoon that your MYLO / LYLO Alliance bonuses extend to your Alliance partner even if you die. I don’t think they will but I can’t say for certain.

If they don’t then you dying tonight throws away a lock Town win and I’m not willing to go with a RR lynch on the chance you are right on grapes and wrong on RR.

I can show the scenarios if necessary but getting that question answered first is important.