Undertale Mafia: Friends & Corpses [GAME OVER]

[JaeReed]

your slot is a mystery surrounded by an enigma. clear some stuff up for us why don't you?

Hi, I hate your day start. I'm going to read like 3 pages of the day start, and the past 3 pages, and that's it. Because I'm not reading 340 pages no matter how much I may or may not love some players in this game.

Math switch back to a50

I scumread both. Why?

@JaeReed -- Hello. Word of warning lots of pages. You also have a PT with me and others. I think you might also have a scum PT too. That last one is gut.

See above. Not reading all of it. Tell me what you want my opinion on and who to ISO if you want more than what I plan to do. No, I don't have a scum PT. I'll check out the other PT in a bit, I might be more inclined to read the neighbourhood. Depends how many pages.

[JaeReed]

Man, 15 minutes paying attention to this thread and already you've made me tired of it.

Jae, when you read this, please do the following
1) Tell Math to suck it.
2) Full claim,

in this thread

.

Who made you tired of it? Me?

1) I'm unsure of Math's alignment so far so I'm not gonna tell them to suck it for you. You may do that yourself.
2) Define what kind of full claim you want. Does that include things that happened at night that I'm aware of?

[JaeReed]

I'd also like to point out that not only have I refused to lynch MagnaofIllusion and McMenno, but I was also crusading against Leonshade's lynch and only hammered it out of spite, and sided with Shiro against Narna when the 1v1 happened (which I also only wagon-hopped on because I was at work when the wagons shifted towards lynching Shiro and I knew that the slot would be dead by the time I got home since Maxous cut the deadline to fuck all).

All your posting since I replaced in seems to be "I have more information than the rest of you on everyone's alignment".

[JaeReed]

Nahdia you're gonna hate me after you were so helpful as to compile shit for me but your thought processes seem more geared toward looking witty/helpful than genuinely wanting to win through scumhunting so far.

[JaeReed]

giovanni: even night weak follower. didn't die visiting narna n4. n2 he was roleblocked, clearly.
nahdia: jailkeeper (i didn't jail last night so no that's not why no kill happened)

giovanni: why was he clearly roleblocked? Who did he visit n2?
nahdia: Why didn't you use your ability last night?

[JaeReed]

If anyone wants to try to bullshit an excuse to lynch me for flavor, keep in mind that my role being group-scum makes far less sense than a third party, which would be pretty hilarious with another confirmed third party in the game.

This is a skull game so it's possible.

In Borderlands there was a role that wanted to be nightkilled, 2 3-man scum teams, and a serial killer. Two third parties.

[JaeReed]

It should be obvious who I'm killing since I already outright stated it.

You've stated a lot of things. State it again for me because apparently I am dumb.

I've hardly even been in this game but it's Accountant. He's going to shoot the neighborizer.

[JaeReed]

Nahdia why do you want to kill the dog?

[JaeReed]

I don't know your thoughts on the slot predecessor nor how he claimed. Give me a little more than that and I'll consider ISO'ing.

Also, what's the case on BigYoshi? Explain it in 3 sentences.

[JaeReed]

Is it short? I'm not reading a wall case.

[JaeReed]

Also Jae, if it isn't too much, can you read the post after that too? I just want your opinion on that too.

Math is being Math. That's my opinion. The case and next post have good points but it's longer than I asked for. You don't seem particularly scummy from the little I've read.

[JaeReed]

@JaeReed: because the dog self-voted and started trolling the thread and I don't see why town would do that. it's not like he was frustrated town at L-1, he had like 2 votes max on him

I've self voted before as town without being run up because I felt like I wasn't being listened to by one person. Self voting is anti-town but not inherently scummy.

Is A50 the dog? Has he posted much?

[JaeReed]

Oh wait there was also the lovers game too where I got a scum but that wasn't a replace in. When I am outside looking in and then playing scum are much more obvious and I don't have to do annoying RVS.

You mean the lovers game where I self voted out of sheer frustration that you weren't listening to me that Ircher/Yume couple wasn't conftown? And it turned out that it wasn't? And you were scumreading me for trying to convince you of that and then for self voting?

Yeah, you've seen me at my worst too. I do believe you're not a bad player, but you're damn frustrating to play with sometimes and that can make it hard to figure out if you're in a good tunnel or a bad one. (Like the one on Fire for wanting massclaim of lovers and suggesting a speedlynch)

This is what I mean by "Math being Math". It's essentially "I don't have the information to make a call on this besides yes, MathBlade is still in possession of their own account and posting."

[JaeReed]

The huge issue with that is the game hasn't ended with his lynch.

[JaeReed]

Yeah, that is why Gaster's faction is created after Maxous's lynch but before his flip.

Maxous's role was "flipped" 24 hours after his lynch. First, the faction is created, then Maxous's "flips". Technically, this way, players have not eliminated all non-town players, in fact there is a 24 hours period where both Maxous and Gaster's faction are still technically "in-game". This 24 hour is neither daytime or nighttime, technically, so I doubt winning conditions would be checked, anyway.

God, for some reason my gut tells me you're town really strongly as I read that post. And I know there's like nothing backing that logically. Whatever.

So you have no real reads atm?

[JaeReed]

He hasn't posted. I don't have a read yet.

[JaeReed]

i don't see what's so incredibly impossible about a town and a scum being converted into a Gaster faction. or what have you. you're severely overstating the potential impact of this cult. it's a 22-player game. swapping the alignments of 2-3 players in a bastard game isn't strange.

Especially given 1 nightkill a night (I think?)

[JaeReed]

New faction. New. NEW.

If a new scum faction emerged that was different from the old one, and any of those former scum are now town, they would out that info.

No one has.

No they wouldn't. What.

[JaeReed]

Alright I'm just gonna primarily talk in here because Math's gone off on a tangent that's not quite what I meant.

Few things.

1) You guys are losing because of flavour spec and it needs to stop.
2) I think essentially a cult/survivor faction was created upon Maxous death given what we know so far. They may or may not have the ability to nightkill.
3) I believe a scum team existed separate from Maxous prior to his lynch, and possibly still exists.

I think Ank, A50, and Yoshi are all town.

[JaeReed]

It's in the neighbourhood, but the claim was town as fuck.

[JaeReed]

Alright, here's what I think.

Maxous was choosing someone each night to future-cult upon his death. The cult team can no longer grow and was only created upon his death. Therefore they're essentially a survivor faction now.
Whether they gained a faction nightkill is debatable. Whether they can win with town is debatable.

[JaeReed]

It's in the neighbourhood, but the claim was town as fuck.

Wait... who is this referring to?

Ank

[JaeReed]

I can't do this anymore. I'm only speaking in votes for the rest of the day. For real this time. You people pushed me to this point. After this post, it's only votes.

@Jae literally 0 lynches have been based off flavor spec. Zero.

VOTE: JaeReed

You're flavor speccing by wanting Ank to lose his powers because he's Chara. And also saying that temmie can't be scum. That's flavor spec.

Don't be unreasonable. I have enough of that already since I've replaced in.

[JaeReed]

Alright, here's what I think.

Maxous was choosing someone each night to future-cult upon his death. The cult team can no longer grow and was only created upon his death. Therefore they're essentially a survivor faction now.
Whether they gained a faction nightkill is debatable. Whether they can win with town is debatable.

So scum have not killed any of the Max group, nor have we lynched any of the Max group nor any scum.

What are the odds?

What?

Scum could not have killed any of the Max group before last night because my theory means even if he targeted them for future-recruit they still would have been town until he flipped.

[JaeReed]

Alright, here's what I think.

Maxous was choosing someone each night to future-cult upon his death. The cult team can no longer grow and was only created upon his death. Therefore they're essentially a survivor faction now.
Whether they gained a faction nightkill is debatable. Whether they can win with town is debatable.

So scum have not killed any of the Max group, nor have we lynched any of the Max group nor any scum.

What are the odds?

What?

Scum could not have killed any of the Max group before last night because my theory means even if he targeted them for future-recruit they still would have been town until he flipped.

So are any of the dead town Max recruits? Do they win with Max-group or with town?

Who knows? I'd imagine they win with town since, y'know, you can't recruit a

dead person

and they died as town. I wouldn't know if any of the town were targeted for recruitment or even if my theory is correct, but it's the one that makes the most sense to me.

[JaeReed]

Also, none of MathBlade's reads make any sense with the stated reasonings in the 'hood. I don't TR them and Nahdia should know better than to be voting me here so they can be scum too.

[JaeReed]

You can't convert the dead.

My god you guys are frustrating.

[JaeReed]

You're included in that. You know this is my town game.

[JaeReed]

Yeah Nahdia is 100% scum. I don't give a shit about your clear chain or w/e, there's no way they flip town this game. 0 chance.

Likely scum with MathBlade.

[JaeReed]

And yes, I am confident enough in this to be lynched as the token VT if Ank gets the hammer and promises to shoot one of them dead. I don't care which.

[JaeReed]

Titus in the neighbourhood checked my slot so Math's bullshit about clears and such is 100% fake and scum!Math doing their usual thing of twisting things until they don't make sense to make their universe fit to their reads rather than genuinely getting reads.

[JaeReed]

I have never seen a goon in role madness. The token VT claim is an innocent child.

Also my predec received an FBI check and paranoia checked Titus instead of anyone actually useful the night she died and I'm pissed about that.

[JaeReed]

No, Math. You were posturing to lynch me. Both in neighbourhood and here. I don't trust any result you'll out.

You claim Cakez is clear for having proved his role, yet I'm not clear when Titus checked my slot and found yup I'm vanilla. The token VT in a role madness game.

Your logic is in line with scum!Math.

[JaeReed]

An FBI check. When Maxous was a god damn ascetic.

Do you think it was just useless or do you think all these kills have been a serial killer?

No idea, don't care. No one in their right mind should have checked Titus after how obvtown she was in the hood. Literally

anyone

would have been a better check. And I mean anyone, including Maxous. Because jfc. I get paranoia, you know I do, but making a sub-optimal check from it is just plain silly.

I am pretty sure Yoshi is town btw because it makes sense for him to have used the doc thing he claims last night given no one knew how many kills there might be. Just like you didn't use the jk for that reason (if you're town)

[JaeReed]

No, seriously. Were there only two non-town players at the start of this game?

No there has to be a faction, because Skull phrased it as such.

[JaeReed]

Cause that's what an FBI check would heavily imply, unless you think it's a bullshit red herring.

In Borderlands Skull had a gunsmith that worked off flavor. How many people in borderlands have a weapon based off flavor?

Yeah, it's possible for it to be a red herring. It's also possible for it to not be.

[JaeReed]

I don't tend to stress over the wording of my role PM too much. I checked with Skull there wasn't a hidden win condition like "no lynch to x day and town wins" because Snarky had that as a part of Dunnstral's role (and he was Frisk) in her game so I thought there was a possibility of a hidden win con with my role or the game mechanics themselves with it being bastard. That's about it tho. Got confirmation I can trust my role PM's win con and assumed it was the same kill the scum type thing.

Also, there's a sample role PM on the first page. The win con is worded exactly the same as mine. Nahdia could have just pointed out the flaw in the theory there instead of reacting the way they did, knowing that I'm too lazy to read much after replacing in. tl;dr I think Nahdia's better than that and I kind of think they're faking the apathy but they're also one of the few people making logical sense this game with some things so idunno. I might just suck at reading them, but I feel like they should be able to read me by now.

[JaeReed]

That's kind of a pain tbh. That means there's a possibility of serial killer + cult leader and no scum team. Maxous being cult leader with the cult created after his death. I was hoping we could just win with cult and lynch remaining scum.

That sounds kind of too swingy though with my theory of basically delayed recruits. We could have lynched Max D1 and had no cult and 1 serial killer to hunt down with an FBI tool existing as an item.

[JaeReed]

Yes I'm taking that into account as well, Math.

My head isn't working well right now. I was just replying to A50 there because it was the last thing I read.

[JaeReed]

He hasn't posted. I don't have a read yet.

Wtf? He has an entire ISO of hundreds of posts.

And I'm not reading that. Pretty sure I made it clear when I replaced in.

2) I think essentially a cult/survivor faction was created upon Maxous death given what we know so far. They may or may not have the ability to nightkill.
3) I believe a scum team existed separate from Maxous prior to his lynch, and possibly still exists.

We established this ages ago.

Considering people were still not decided on it, apparently not as much as you thought, and as I stated, not backreading.

I have never seen a goon in role madness. The token VT claim is an innocent child.

Also my predec received an FBI check and paranoia checked Titus instead of anyone actually useful the night she died and I'm pissed about that.

Not necessarily. Role madness doesn't have to have a VT (for example, Amazing World of Gumball).

Did I say role madness had to have a VT? No. I'm the VT in this role madness game ergo the token VT, which in many role madness games is intended to be treated as an IC.

I am pretty sure Yoshi is town btw because it makes sense for him to have used the doc thing he claims last night given no one knew how many kills there might be. Just like you didn't use the jk for that reason (if you're town)

This is also stupid.
For all we know scum!yoshi intentionally nokilled so he could set up this fakeclaim. He's not conf at all.

Did I say he was conf? No? Right.


Cakez is posturing.
VOTE: SirCakez
No, I don't care about the claim, Math.

[JaeReed]

B) Idiotic

I just double checked what Neapolitan does. It does not return results like "Mafia PR" or "Vanilla Townie" or "Town PR" so yes I will wear this badge thank you.

Cakez is still posturing, and I have a question.

If Cakez were a scum false inventor is it possible that his false inventions actually kill the person it's used on? Has anyone claimed an invention use on someone that hasn't died?

[JaeReed]

^ Theory because of Titus death and my own slot using an FBI check on Titus.

I think Cakez is scum regardless but it's a matter of whether the inventions are false or not.

[JaeReed]

Alright cool. Well idunno. I guess I'm the only person Math's thing is useful on but it'll become useless because scum will kill me to keep a conftown from happening.

When did everyone claim? Has anyone claimed and had a nightkill happen since that wasn't them for no good reason?

[JaeReed]

Night 3 I forgot to send an action <.<

UNVOTE:

[JaeReed]

How the hell are you all forgetting to submit actions?

[JaeReed]

MathBlade or Cakez are my preferred lynches and I'm fine with the other being vigged.

[JaeReed]

No, I don't give a crap if you check me or not because you're going to lie about the result regardless. Everything you're doing is pushing things to try and make it fit your scumreads/townreads. You are literally trying to bend the events of this game to your will and it's scummy af and I'm pissed I didn't catch you from it in Shadowrun but I'll be damned if I let you do it to me again. In Shadowrun I handwaved a lot of things as "Math is unreasonable" but the difference is there's some logic to your unreasonableness as town, and there's none here.

[JaeReed]

No, I don't give a crap if you check me or not because you're going to lie about the result regardless. Everything you're doing is pushing things to try and make it fit your scumreads/townreads. You are literally trying to bend the events of this game to your will and it's scummy af and I'm pissed I didn't catch you from it in Shadowrun but I'll be damned if I let you do it to me again. In Shadowrun I handwaved a lot of things as "Math is unreasonable" but the difference is there's some logic to your unreasonableness as town, and there's none here.

Great so you want to policy me because I tricked people in Shadowrun lovely. keep up the good scumhunting. (The last sentence is sarcastic)

That's not what I said and you know it. This is again twisting things. Twisting things is a scum move from you.

[JaeReed]

So instead I will wait for your case of why you aren't policying me.

I've already mentioned heaps of reasons. So no. I'm not dragging this out further with you.

[JaeReed]

Which, by the way, also should (I made an error) include MathBlade as off limits because they're the ones with the neapolitan check that can clear Jae. We lynch Math today, we never get anything on Jae's slot.

Spoiler alert: We're never getting anything useful on my slot anyway because Math is scum.

[JaeReed]

For those town and not convinced that Math is scum:

Math has decided SirCakez is town because they can confirm his role through having received the Neapolitan.
Math has decided my slot is scum

despite

my slot claiming VT early, and offering to be the check from Titus, and returning a Vanilla result from Titus. Math has decided my slot is either Goon or Cult because of this.

These two viewpoints cannot exist together and be genuine. They just cannot. This is the logical progression that Math has as town which they do not have as scum. Town Math would decide either Cakez is not town just because of the role being confirmed to them, or they would decide that my slot is town. There would be consistency. There is not. Ergo, Math is scum.

[JaeReed]

I don't know if my vote is there but in case it's not:

VOTE: MathBlade

[JaeReed]

Jae, why are you offended by the idea that MathBlade wants to use the Neapolitan check on the one person it will actually have a meaningful result on????????????????????????????????????????

I'm not offended. What I'm saying is that MathBlade is scum. I don't give a fuck about the Neapolitan.

I mean by this same logic you could have Giovanni visit me and not die. Or Narna do whatever it is Narna does. There's no reason for us to keep scum around to claim their result was messed with so they could try to push the 1v1 tomorrow. We lynch scum today by lynching MathBlade.

[JaeReed]

If you are VT as I said in the hood I will eat crow and admit it. I just don't think you are.

If you are town I will eat crow. You're not town. You never will be town no matter how much you try to twist the gamestate to pretend you're town.

I don't give two shits about your Neapolitan check, and if you escape the lynch and want to check me I don't give a damn, but you

will

claim some kind of shenanigans with it and you

will

use that to try to push a mislynch on me. I'm moving the 1v1 to today because I'm not putting up with letting you slip through as scum like this. I don't care if you lynch me so long as it's 100% guaranteed that MathBlade is speedlynched without claim the next day.

[JaeReed]

Vote PV or someone else but not me and not you.

At this stage I want to lynch everyone that you townread for no reliable reason, which is Cakez.

[JaeReed]

If you are town let me check you then submit to whatever you say. If you aren't VT then we 1v1 tomorrow.

I am VT, and you will say I"m not. Or that you were roleblocked. Or that you were redirected.

We're not doing this tomorrow when we have less mislynches available. You're scum by play. Cakez is scum by play.

I am literally not going to vote anyone who you have tried to push since I replaced in. And even if you DO return that I'm VT like I've been telling you I am still not going to believe you're town, so I'll be telling you to self-vote tomorrow even if you don't claim shenanigans with your check. And you won't. So no, you won't submit to what I say.

[JaeReed]

@Jae:

Knowing Math I can see them disregarding their own result on you and keeping the push, yes. However, if you are really willing to die, why not give them the opportunity to entertain us with a result on you? I can tell you what WILL happen beforehand, right here and right now, but I don't want to look like I'm giving you/them ideas, so let's just give them this one night to come up with the promised salvation.

@Gio:

Do us all a favour and check ME tonight. Scum can't kill both you AND Jae on the same night, so if you die I'm willing to eat the rope with Jae confirmed, and if Jae dies (thus Math having no result) I'd be confirmed.

Narna should probably pick someone outside of this pool of 4 to check.

Or we could make a chain, like Narna checking Gio (or vise versa) and the other checking Math while Math checks Jae. This way if Jae dies we still have results on both Math and Gio. If Gio/Narna die we have a result on Rae still with a possible result on Math (depending on which of Gio/Narna is dead).

I think the latter works better because while I'm not going to be NK'd with my claim anyway, the idea of Gio getting NK'd with me still not confirmed is not ideal in my own eyes.

Nahdia can still jail me if they want to, if we walk down the chain route that is.

Alright sure. This is good as a plan I think.

Gio already checked Narna didn't he? Are we reconfirming Narna then?

[JaeReed]

Math, you have to stop this thread of taking one thing a player says, then taking an unfounded logical leap, twisting their argument then refuting the new, illogical argument you've created. it's manipulative and discrediting and scummy.

That's.because.they're.scum.

I don't care if town check me through all the fucking means available to them.

I am certain Math is scum. Therefore none of their checks mean a goddamn thing because they're scum.

[JaeReed]

...Explain why I have only lost two scum games in 3 years on MS?

It's because you're so damn illogical as town that people give you free passes as scum.

[JaeReed]

i found the opposite in Shadowrun, Jaereed. then again, you were in the game for longer.

What do you mean?

I know I threw away a lot of stuff Math was doing that I would have scumread any other player for, because "Oh it's Math" and I shouldn't have.

[JaeReed]

Fine; whatever. I still think they're scum.

I'm all for Almost's plan. Am only willing to lynch Creeps out of the ones that are apparently on the table for a lynch.

[JaeReed]

Fine; whatever. I still think they're scum.

I'm all for Almost's plan. Am only willing to lynch Creeps out of the ones that are apparently on the table for a lynch.

Creeps is not on the table. He is one of Narna's checks :face palm:

Urgh, I can't keep them clear. Too many in the chain.

I don't want a lynch on Pere because I think this is mislynch bait and being pushed like what happened in Shadowrun. I don't have a read on him so much as the people I find suspicious are pushing him.

I don't want a lynch on Ank. I hard townread him.

I don't want a lynch on Almost or Yoshi, I soft townread the former (and yes I adjusted for potential buddying there; I still think he's town) and the latter seems more likely to be town because I can make logical sense of his claimed action to fit with the gamestate. I guess the only question there would be: he wouldn't know that something like another faction would be created, so why didn't he use the shot earlier? Even then I feel the answer to that is a bit of a no brainer.

[JaeReed]

Math's play in Shadowrun was mostly deliberate. after arguing with them at length here, the actions of theirs i don't agree with come from differences in how we play the game. despite those differences, Math's internal logic here is consistent with 'Math'. in Shadowrun, i found myself agreeing with a lot more of what they were saying, presumably because they were more focused on their goal as scum than here, where they're playing normally and their 'moonlogic' is out in full force.

Shadowrun Math was concerned with not being mislynched, and with being listened to. Math here is being honest about their methods, means of reading players, and is receiving backlash for it but hasn't backed down or contradicted their beliefs.

if i'm wrong, let me know. i don't mean to compare the two and call Math town because they're different, i know that's faulty.

mainly what i'm saying is that Math doesn't appear to have a plan. they're literally posting as they feel. the logic isn't forced or changed to fit the narrative they need to push for the win.
i'm dissatisfied with how i'm wording this. :<

You worded it fine. I'm not sure. I can't genuinely evaluate Math right now I think. It's probably best to just wait for them to check me.

The thing with Math's play in Shadowrun was that I discarded things I would normally find scummy with "well Math is moonlogic" without thinking about it and that's what I'm trying not to do here. I'm trying to differentiate between inconsistencies in Math's play (being scum indicative) and different logic (being Math indicative), where you're evaluating whether they have a plan or not which I haven't been looking at tbh.

[JaeReed]

I don't think NC is scum, either. Can we no lynch?

[JaeReed]

Because no one else is going to let ScumBlade get lynched today. I'd rather avoid lynching town as a compromise.

Also, in Shadowrun Math was stressing about making sure they were around all the time. Before work, after work, you name it. Math seems to equate low activity with scummy when playing as scum. So if they replaced in one day phase ago and have more posts than everyone else I'd be inclined towards yup they're scum.

[JaeReed]

No lynching is anti Town.

It's not if you're pretty sure we're just going to mislynch out of apathy. We move into tomorrow and we can 1v1.

[JaeReed]

I have the most posts as Town as well Jae. I have a posting problem maybe. But it is NAI.

Just double checked yuri mafia. Yes and no, though I can't remember if you ate the lover lynch early on which might negate that.

You're at the most amount of posts here and you were in Shadowrun as well. Throw me a scum game where you didn't have the most amount of posts and I'll concede it's NAI but for now it very much does seem AI.

[JaeReed]

No lynching is anti Town.

It's not if you're pretty sure we're just going to mislynch out of apathy. We move into tomorrow and we can 1v1.

It absolutely is. If you know scum has to be in those barrels and you have unlimited bullets and you don't fire you don't narrow down potential scum. Scum won't kill inside those barrels unless forced to which may be a thing I hope I have explained.

Except I don't think there's scum in the pool I'm allowed to choose a lynch in.

[JaeReed]

I have the most posts as Town as well Jae. I have a posting problem maybe. But it is NAI.

Just double checked yuri mafia. Yes and no, though I can't remember if you ate the lover lynch early on which might negate that.

You're at the most amount of posts here and you were in Shadowrun as well. Throw me a scum game where you didn't have the most amount of posts and I'll concede it's NAI but for now it very much does seem AI.

I ate lover lynch early in that game JaeReed.

All games I post a shit ton in. I can't show you what doesn't exist. As town (Mass Effect) I posted a lot here I do Shadowrun I do. It is literally NAI. I can't show you a scum lurker game because I don't lurk ever. I take pride in matching Town and scum games to a T and do my damndest to avoid having tells. I work at it so people have more fun.

Fine; then two towngames where you're the top poster. Not just high amount. Top. Like you have been here and Shadowrun.

[JaeReed]

Only beeboy had more and I was a replace in. Please stop saying shit is AI when it isn't. It is really annoying.

The problem is you're giving me games here where your posting is pretty much in line with reasonable compared to others. In Shadowrun it was beyond the levels of reasonableness which is what it looks like to me here as well.

[JaeReed]

Math I'm talking about the

game thread

in Shadowrun. I didn't even look at the neighbourhood activity overview.

One scum game where you have posts that are at a reasonable level compared to the other posters, or two town games where your posting blows out to unreasonable levels and I will never bring up activity being AI for you again, and will advocate that it's not in every game someone does.

[JaeReed]

No logic no trust. Always the way it will be with me. No reasons no agreement. I don't have a "read their emotions" setting.

Except when I explain my logic you don't agree with it based on it not fitting your logic so... :/ It's not no logic. It's "not my logic" that causes you to have issues with things. And that's what people are taking issue with.

[JaeReed]

Just because someone thinks about something differently to you doesn't make their logic less than yours. But whatever. Activity for you is NAI, I concede that. Thanks.

[JaeReed]

This is the last game we're playing together, then.

Probably for the best if you never actually want to explain your reads or ya know lynch scum.

Considering explaining reads gets us nowhere with you there's honestly no point. You'll just decide that everyone but you is wrong anyway.

[JaeReed]

Also, Idgaf. Also, I don't believe you.

Uh yeah this is kinda over the line. I can confirm Math isn't lying about real life conditions.

[JaeReed]

oh it was sorted and preview didn't tell me rip

[JaeReed]

Yeah I thought the thread was still at where I had read for some reason.

UNVOTE:

I don't have any reads I'm comfortable with pushing to a lynch now. Math wouldn't have brought up what they did as scum I think.

[JaeReed]

I'm not saying your condition is AI, but you mentioning it to explain why you have difficulties connecting with the more emotional readers this game is, I feel. Also, you are generally more agreeable to at least someone in the game when you're pushing your mislynches as scum but I feel like less people are connecting with you here.

I'm thinking as scum here you wouldn't have needed to explain it, and I kind of feel that you probably wouldn't explain it as scum but rather adjust your play to compensate for the issues people were having, if that makes sense?

[JaeReed]

Yeah I thought the thread was still at where I had read for some reason.

UNVOTE:

I don't have any reads I'm comfortable with pushing to a lynch now. Math wouldn't have brought up what they did as scum I think.

I am transparent as either alignment. I would bring this up as scum or town or 3P. I almost ripped into Wake for Gistou gender shit as I was a balling mess and threw my keyboard. If you are going to townread me so be it but never assume I would or wouldn't do something as any alignment.

Gender stuff is NAI because that's separate from how you're reading people.

This isn't. It's not your reaction to him saying he didn't believe you, it's the fact it was brought up so heavily in the first place. Scum!You would have less need to bring it up because it's not a genuine clash.

I just don't know where that leaves my reads anymore.

[JaeReed]

If it is I will have to adjust my scum play to compensate.

Crap I shouldn't have explained it =P I could have had an easier time reading you in the future.

[JaeReed]

Now Math floats I could be godfather....after saying what are the chances scum can mess with narnas clears in the same post.

Whatever. You're relying on pr results so we'll lose.

[JaeReed]

@Math your result will be messed with because this is role madness and there is 0 chance that scum don't have something to mess with all results. That's the same reason the clears aren't clear. But okay. You're willing to believe the clears are clear, and Cakez is clear for being an inventor, but even if your result on me isn't messed with despite Titus getting a Vanilla result you're just going to handwave it as godfather because that's who you are.

I'd rather no lynch because there's a decent chance 2 nightkills might happen given the extra faction from Maxous and the presumably prestanding faction of scum. If not, scum might kill someone in the other faction which is still good for us. If I am gonna vote to lynch consider it to be on whoever my strongest TR Ank decides on. I really don't mind drawing this out the 2 days to a no lynch though.

[JaeReed]

Why would you vote a townread?

And why are you assuming an extra faction instead of cult turned scum faction? Both has as much evidence.

Because of the translation. Which you are again throwing away actual evidence for your own "logic". I'm not arguing with you anymore. Either you derp guilty me and try to get me lynched tomorrow or you clear me. I don't care. Either way, I'm not going to continue to try to communicate with someone who clearly just wants to take their own interpretation of everything regardless of what was said/done.

You did it again here with the bolded. I didn't say I was going to vote a townread. I said I was going to vote with my townread.

[JaeReed]

If I am gonna vote to lynch consider it to be

on whoever my strongest TR Ank

decides

on

.

Last response.

[JaeReed]

Just lynch someone and let Ank hammer. I think a NL will leave town at an even greater disadvantage.
VOTE: PV

Ok, so why Pere? Is there a case? This is just a vote on lynchbait disguised as a deadline lynch and it's so easy for scum to get away with that at this point.

[JaeReed]

Math, I'm going to boil this down further for you.

My hard townreads currently: Ank and Math.

That's it.

[JaeReed]

There's a chance for A50 to have pocketed me for being one of the few people that are making any sense this game. Same with Not Chara playing mediator and Yoshi.
I have my hard townreads. That's who I'm not voting. That's the only group that I find obvtown at this stage. My read on Math was wrong and I was viewing the gamestate with Math being all but confscum earlier, which colors reads also.

[JaeReed]

Just lynch someone and let Ank hammer. I think a NL will leave town at an even greater disadvantage.
VOTE: PV

Ok, so why Pere? Is there a case? This is just a vote on lynchbait disguised as a deadline lynch and it's so easy for scum to get away with that at this point.

He has votes and at this point, if we can get Ank to kill someone, that's better than a NL. Would you agree with that?

That always depends. Vig shots are only as powerful as the person's reads. I can follow the logic though so meh. It's still a low content deadline lynch at its core though, which I have problems with on a base level, but they're just as likely to hit scum really so idunno.

[JaeReed]

Merry christmas! <3

Flavour spec: one of the dogs probs scum but reads better to figure that out <3

[JaeReed]

I get the strong feeling that someone has overclaimed this game (i.e. claimed a stronger role than they actually have); such a player is highly likely to be scum. I've been scum who's been forced to overclaim before now, and it's a really uncomfortable situation to be in. Gio strikes me as the most likely player to be scum for this reason, both in terms of behaviour, and in terms of the claim. Overclaims tend to have a pile of modifiers on, and tend to leave a lot of evidence that there's a roleblocker/redirector around, and tend to cause an excessive amount of players cleared as Town but by dubious means; this fits this game perfectly, and Gio in particular pretty well.

I was recently in a mini normal where we had an odd-night weak doctor on top of tracker, universal backup, and 1 shot gunsmith. Gio's claim doesn't seem that far fetched?

[JaeReed]

^ lol at the implications in that

[JaeReed]

If NC has Giovanni is lock town then Giovanni claimed to have weak followed Narna.

Therefore it doesn't make sense to say Gio is lock town without Narna also being lock-town.

[JaeReed]

If I am wrong on SirCakez it is only if he has the same alignment as JaeReed. I hate this post reaction.

Yes, congratulations.

I admit it. I'm scum with SirCakez.

Can we lynch him now? Is that all it takes for you to finally listen to a suggestion to lynch one of my scumreads?

[JaeReed]

Wait, no, I'm doing it wrong.

You're not lynching SirCakez he is obvtown!!!

VOTE: MathBlade

[JaeReed]

I'll lynch Cakez. We're not lynching Math, they're town, annoyingly enough.

I'm also open to a Nahdia lynch. Jailkeeper falls under "strong role that doesn't really fit" for me.

[JaeReed]

VOTE: SirCakez

[JaeReed]

eh actually VOTE: Nahdia

[JaeReed]

Sure, early on (around here http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p8403563) Ank was townreading Cakez and scumreading Nahdia slot. I think they're both scummy, so I'm inclined to go with the one my TR had as scum also.

[JaeReed]

So you just admitted that you were going to jailkeep me... When jailkeeping would stop Math from getting a result?

[JaeReed]

Let me

break this down

obviously something stopped nahdia's jailkeep from working on zakk yeah? the suspected thing is a redirect yeah?

and you want to jailkeep tonight of all nights when it is the most important night for shit to not be messed with.

[JaeReed]

and yeah I was assuming Alien but it's still a fucking terrible idea to jailkeep if that's even your real role and not fake

[JaeReed]

No. We've been over this, even. Narna got a result on Creeps20 night 2, which I disputed because I was jailkeeping them last night (I'm used to the alien variation being default), but then I retracted my objection after re-checking my role PM and clarifying that yeah, i only stop killing actions.

someone confirm this happened as stated?

[JaeReed]

It made sense as a redirect coming from Maxous. With Maxous not flipping redirector, it's just as likely it was a strongkill or a rolegblock that interfered.

But sure. Fucking challenge me when I refuse to act and challenge me when I do act. I can't win, can I?

I questioned you not using it last night. If you don't want your use of night actions questioned and evaluated for whether it's more likely a town move or not then don't out them.

[JaeReed]

it feels contrived to say nahdia shouldn't block tonight. especially if they would be attempting to stop you, who would hopefully be clear and thus a target, from being investigated.

honestly jaereed, it still looks like you're not confident the investigation will return you as town, from this and your behaviour earlier. i had a good townread on andrius by the end but i'm trying to reconcile that with your decisions here.

this is sheeping opinions already stated in the thread by multiple other people.

And no, the investigation will likely not return anything. It will be either roleblocked or redirected or something will happen to it. Considering if you think Nahdia is town that means that there's definitely something out there that will mess with things.

And that first part is full of bull. If I think Nahdia is going to stop me from being investigated it is definitely not contrived to say they shouldn't block tonight.

[JaeReed]

But the almighty MathBlade forbids a Creeps lynch because Narna checked him.

[JaeReed]

it was an error, i meant killed.

and why do you care if nahdia blocks or not if you're

already

confident the investigation won't return results?

Because there's been so much shit messing with everyone's investigative actions there's no fucking way you'll get a result you can rely on. Like holy shit why don't people get this? This game wasn't made so that we could have 500 town clears and then autowin from it.

[JaeReed]

They're important in that after my flip you'll have a better idea of what abilities scum have so long as a town!Nahdia doesn't jailkeep.

Scenarios:
Nahdia is town and non alien variant of jailkeeper. Jailkeeps me.
Scum have a redirector and assume Nahdia is going to jailkeep someone - they redirect Nahdia to MathBlade.
MathBlade gets No Result as they were jailkept and unable to act.

Nahdia is town and non alien variant of jailkeeper. Jailkeeps me.
Scum have a roleblocker and use it on MathBlade.
MathBlade gets a No Result as they were roleblocked.

In both of these situations we don't know if it was a redirect or roleblock.

Nahdia is town and DOES NOT jailkeep.
Scum have a redirect and use it on Nahdia to Math - no change. Or scum have a redirect and use it on Math to someone else - we know scum have redirect.

Nahdia is town and does not jailkeep.
Scum have a roleblocker and use it on Math.
We know scum have roleblocker.

[JaeReed]

We're lynching me tomorrow regardless because I can't see Math dropping their read on me no matter what result they get. Even if it's "Is a VT" because they've already floated that I could be Godfather (and if you think my play is in line with a Godfather then you have rocks for brains).

The information comes from how Math's result is messed with. Nahdia putting the jailkeep as a potential option makes it harder for us to know what happened.

[JaeReed]

In which case they lose their mislynch for tomorrow. I don't see the issue with that.

[JaeReed]

I'd rather be nightkilled than mislynched. 2 times is already too high a number.

[JaeReed]

Can someone explain to MathBlade how I'm not saying they will lie.

I am saying they will report the exact result they get and then ignore what that really means to push for my lynch because they are actually incapable of reading me.

[JaeReed]

So a "No Result" will have MathBlade push for my lynch because they were roleblocked and in their mind that means scum!me didn't want to be checked.
A "Not Chara is not a VT" will have MathBlade push for my lynch because they were redirected and that means scum!me in their mind didn't want to be checked.
A "JaeReed is a VT" will have MathBlade decide I must be a godfather then and push for my lynch because they're incapable of reading me correctly when they're town.

[JaeReed]

It's ridiculous it's like you want to call me scum and mislynch me but are hampered by your town read of me

This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

You're not scum. You're incapable of reading me. You're incapable of reading me because I'm a highly emotional person. So only as scum will you ever have a correct read on me.

You tunneled me in Yuri maf too. When you're town you can't read me because I don't play the way you want me to.

[JaeReed]

I doubt three role blockers so if I get roleblocked then I would go after Nahdia and if they are town then you sir would have likely changed into an ascetic.

And then you'll flip me and I will flip Vanilla Town and you'll be proven wrong again.

[JaeReed]

Brag about the nai maxous lynch one more time math

Holy fuxk

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

[JaeReed]

Choose someone, let Ank hammer.

Or no lynch. Since, y'know, that's still my preference.

[JaeReed]

Is Creeps Temmie? I got Temmie flakes one of the nights.

[JaeReed]

I got it Night 1.

Also fruit vendor means nothing these days. They generally can give fruit to one person even if they go and kill another in the same night.

[JaeReed]

A lot of people who have played with Peregrine in the past and claim to be able to read him have said he's town here. I'm not going for that lynch ever.

[JaeReed]

VOTE: Creeps Not sure how many votes this is, I think 5 tho

[JaeReed]

No, Math. You were posturing to lynch me. Both in neighbourhood and here. I don't trust any result you'll out.

You claim Cakez is clear for having proved his role, yet I'm not clear when Titus checked my slot and found yup I'm vanilla. The token VT in a role madness game.

Your logic is in line with scum!Math.

Of if you are town I will eat crow. I have done it before but rest assured I do have a one shot Neo and I was hiding it to see what your claim is and why I asked why you said you had additional information in the hood as a fucking VT claim. I am checking you tonight.

I hope you like crow.

I also remember you saying you'd follow me or something to that extent so now lynch yourself.

VOTE: MathBlade probably cult.

[JaeReed]

I'm saying I think Math has been cult since the Maxous death, silly.

[JaeReed]

Weak only dies if visiting a killing role though? I'm saying I don't think cult have a nightkill, and were created after Maxous death with no way to recruit, and we have a serial killer.

[JaeReed]

People who have played with MathBlade before: are they generally selfish as Town?

I tried to keep Math alive even though we thought their partner was scum in lovers mafia and they wouldn't stand for it and called me scum for wanting it because I thought our best chance was to find the mafia partners with Math's abilities. So no, not selfish. They wanted to die when they thought it'd kill scum.

[JaeReed]

Except I thought Math actually claimed full bp when we were arguing here yesterday, so now arguing that they haven't claimed their shots is bullshit.

I still want a Math lynch for A) saying I was trying to policy lynch them due to Shadowrun when I clearly stated my case, and B) refusing to lynch obvscum SirCakez therefore making them a liability and C) deciding i had to be scum because I didn't trust them and thought Neapolitan also returned alignment of whoever was checked

[JaeReed]

No, I was not. I 100% was not and I had a case and Almost even boiled it down for you. Cakez is obvscum. And I did provide my reasons and it was very clear if you even TRIED TO READ MY DAMN POSTS THAT I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND.

But you dont' read my posts. You still won't now that I'm confirmed town to you.

[JaeReed]

VOTE: SirCakez

[JaeReed]

Something happened with Shiro, and it makes me suspicious of cakez's lack of a n3 action.

Note who died.

[JaeReed]

I'm officially shutting down and not reading nor responding to MathBlade's posts ftr. I also want Giovanni to confirm that they would die if visiting cult.

My preferred lynch today is SirCakez based on dayplay. Stop giving him a free out for having a confirmed role.

[JaeReed]

<.<
Weak is basically a Cop

If you use "cop" to generally describe an investigative role, then yes, I am cop-like.

You get told whether your target is scum or not (indirectly)
That's basically a cop, no?

Yes, that is basically a cop, however, I am not a cop. I was reluctant to explain, but my role is so weak that it doesn't really matter. I am an even-night weak follower.

Weak as in, if my target is not Town, I die.

I mean.. you didn't need to do the size and bold. You know i wasn't here for that and you know I am not backreading. I don't have the patience for your snark here, not with how tilted I am from Math already.

[JaeReed]

^ Also that doesn't say non-town so Gio confirmed lying scum!!!11!!1

[JaeReed]

I wouldn't mind being the hammer on Almost if we do go that way but I'd prefer not to lynch someone I think is town so let's not?

[JaeReed]

Ankamius revealed his intentions in the neighborhood, right? Does anyone in the neighborhood scumread them?

I town read him.

Cakez is pulling the obtuse card which isn't becoming of him at all. His last 2-3 responses to me are plain dumb questions asked for the sake of appearing to be asking questions. I give him much more credit than that.

++++++++++++++++++++

[JaeReed]

VOTE: Peregrine V

L-2

[JaeReed]

UNVOTE:

I really don't think Pere is scum here, sorry Math :/ Is there anyone you would compromise on?

[JaeReed]

The bulletproof investigative thing was sarcasm from him.

[JaeReed]

Unfortunately I don't have a compelling argument for him being town that I feel you'd listen to because it's essentially "tone". He's not trying to appease or anything here that I can see.

Peregrine V claimed dog census I think? He can check how many dogs were on a wagon? I'm not sure what the use of that even is, to be honest.

[JaeReed]

Considering he's voting him I'd say so.

[JaeReed]

Unfortunately I don't have a compelling argument for him being town that I feel you'd listen to because it's essentially "tone". He's not trying to appease or anything here that I can see.

Peregrine V claimed dog census I think? He can check how many dogs were on a wagon? I'm not sure what the use of that even is, to be honest.

Yeah. It allowed me to determine Not Chara was also a dog by day6, so usefulness is somewhere between zero and little.

If you're town the usefulness comes in at checking for fakeclaims in flavour or if there's scum in the dogs. The question is whether it's either of those or just a red herring.

[JaeReed]

Not everyone crumbs. Crumbing is kinda silly anyway because scum are more likely to pick up on that than town are.

Huh nice catch. I'll look a bit into things more when I get home.

[JaeReed]

If we're going with that plan you're missing something important... if Nahdia is town then they can't jailkeep me to prevent the kill being on me.

I don't think Nahdia is fakeclaiming jailkeeper. I haven't looked too close at the posts in question but things to look at when judging validity of Nahdia's claim:
the flip that they were supposed to have prevented
the counterclaim to Narna (i think?) because they jailkept and had to check with mod to come to the conclusion they weren't alien variant (which is what I thought Nahdia was too)

If someone wants to hunt down a quote from around those times so I can follow the link and read in context I'd like that actually. But my theory is that it's not likely to be faked, especially the counter to checking and finding out they're not alien. I suspect if I looked it up I'd find it believable.

[JaeReed]

Math, what Nahdia was saying was they objected to Narna saying they checked Creeps and got a result because Nahdia was jailkeeping creeps and thought they were the Alien variant. When Nahdia checked and found they weren't, they retracted that objection.

I also thought Nahdia was the Alien variant. It's not that uncommon a mistake to make and I'm more inclined to believe Nahdia considering I made the same assumption.

[JaeReed]

^ that was also my theory lol. Delayed culting.

[JaeReed]

I mean I'm fine with either a Cakez lynch or A50 giving me his ability but honestly I really think A50 is town, in which case we're deliberately lynching a townie which still bugs me slightly. Especially given I think A50 generally has better reads than I do as town. Objectively he's better for town than I am in terms of what he contributes, but I don't know if that outweighs the Innocent Child equivalent that I am.

[JaeReed]

Note how Almost is very obviously town by the lack of advancement of the gamestate.

[JaeReed]

VOTE: Sircakez

^ preferred lynch because I actually want a scumflip over survival, but will hammer A50 if I can't get the lynch.

[JaeReed]

If this is a 4 man scum team we lose if I hammer almost.

[JaeReed]

DON'T HAMMER. FFS DO NOT HAMMER.

Kind of exactly what is going through my head rn

[JaeReed]

Because PV is town and cakez is scum.

[JaeReed]

Let me put things this way: it's only Gio's night result that's keeping me from voting you right now. That's how antitown I think you're playing.

Also my sentiment.

[JaeReed]

Yeah I don't like how Math is trying to "prove" people as town through not lying about their roles. It seems too focused on that and trying to make people focus on that rather than actual play and how scummy that might be.

Once Cakez flips scum I want Math lynched.

[JaeReed]

As far as the reasonings about Math not allowing Gio to tie himself to them.... I've been scum recently just now in a game that finished. A lot of it i couldn't control my scumbuddies either. I don't think it's fair to say the actions of one buddy necessarily reflect on what another would "allow". Would Math be pissed if the buddy did it? Yes, of course. Would Math be able to stop it? Not necessarily.

[JaeReed]

To make this perfectly clear: I do not believe a fully town MathBlade would be approaching the game in this manner.

[JaeReed]

You are flipping your read because I don't go along with stupid plans.

LOL

No, I was always scumreading you, so no. I thought you wouldn't pull what you did as scum, but as 3rd party? possibly.

[JaeReed]

Yeah I thought the thread was still at where I had read for some reason.

UNVOTE:

I don't have any reads I'm comfortable with pushing to a lynch now. Math wouldn't have brought up what they did as scum I think.

This is the same fucking day.

Now fucking stop lying to yourself and start playing mafia with something other than gut. It is what got all the other mislynches like Creeps instead of PV. What the ever loving fuck was that? Oh player is on claimed VLA for the holidays must be scum. Stop that bullshit.

I'm pretty sure I just literally said I think you're 3rd party.

Everyone please take note: MathBlade is trying to discredit BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION the CONF!TOWN

This is 100% NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS EVER FLIPPING TOWN

I can't lynch this slot today but by god when I die tomorrow:
DO NOT LYNCH NAHDIA
DO NOT LYNCH PV
DO NOT LYNCH CFJ
DO NOT LYNCH A50

LYNCH MATHBLADE
LYNCH MATHBLADE
LYNCH MATHBLADE
LYNCH MATHBLADE

I am certain this isn't town. I don't care what kind of fucking acrobatics you have to do to make them some kind of scum.... because believe me, they've already done worse kinds of acrobatics to confirm others/condemn others in this game.

[JaeReed]

btw I'm NEVER moving my vote from sircakez. Ever. I'm NEVER hammering A50 in potential LYLO and ANYONE suggesting I should do so is fucking scum or derptown.

[JaeReed]

It's potential LYLO and I think primary objective should be a scum lynch, not fucking mechanical clears WHICH PROVE FUCKING NOTHING AS FAR AS FUCKING ALIGNMENT

Like, Math proves Nahdia can roleblock??? So what? IF MATH IS SCUM THEY LEASHED NAHDIA'S ROLEBLOCK TO ONE FUCKING PERSON GUARANTEED FOR THE NIGHT LIKE THIS IS SO FUCKING SCUMMY WTF

Don't let this happen. Hammer Cakez. Be a hero. Let Nahdia choose who to jailkeep to their hearts content like they have the right to do as a PR.

[JaeReed]

(I may be drunk but I endorse all of the above while sober because I love myself enough to know I make better decisions while drunk than any other time)

Seriously, please lynch SirCakez if you want to follow someone who is town.
Then lynch MathBlade.

[JaeReed]

Not true.

Nahdia has not gone along with it. Nahdia has been mostly absent.
If Gio is not town that does not necessarily mean you are not town. If you are not town then 100% Gio is not town unless you flip godfather.

Roles do not make someone town or not town. You're better than to assume someone telling the truth about their role means ANYTHING regarding their alignment.

Honestly, your play would make you confscum to me by this point. The only thing is Gio's confirm which is fucking shaky as shit. If I thought it was possible I'd be lynching you today over Cakez. As it is, I'm aiming for your likely partner instead.

[JaeReed]

No, I would never scream for Gio's head over yours because something might have realistically messed with his result on you.

If you're not scum Gio might be (lie about role).
If Gio isn't scum you might be (godfather).
If Gio is scum you might be (partner or not).

[JaeReed]

Like, I can't coherently do this with my mother fucking breathing down my neck all day but if someone can dig through my ISO in the neighbourhood/here in combination and show how I never fucking trusted Math from the start that'd be great.

Imean like ffs if ppl don't remember the fucking SHIT SHOW that was me complaining about MATHBLADE MY SCUMREAD checking me for being a VT then they're pretty much fucking blind imo.

[JaeReed]

Ok that is actually 100% scumposting ^ I will now compromise on a math lynch.

[JaeReed]

Actually worth saying my compromise lynch is cakez and preferred is math

[JaeReed]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p8094547

Fun fact. I self voted in this game out of frustration with Math saying a pair was conftown based off an early wagon (pair had one scum in it) and this was the response Math had to me trying to get them to flip my slot (since they were apparently pretty sure one of me/Fire was scum and we were lovers.

Guess why I don't give a shit about them doing it here. Yeah, I'm petty like that (also I believe they said Nahdia was conftown if there was scum in the Yume/Ircher pair... which they said was conftown based off a wagon being run up on Ircher early game... scum was Yume/Nahdia/tne).

That said, I want a Cakez lynch. Rereading bits of this game just reminded me how off Math can be as town so they might not necessarily be scum.

[JaeReed]

Yoshi you're misrepping like a machine. Could you please actually make sure you understand the full context of the posts you're nitpicking before you do this? It's just causing unneeded frustration.

His post was not a misrep.

[JaeReed]

cfj, that game I linked is key to understanding how badly Math can confbias and be stubborn about something as town, regardless of whether they are right or wrong.

[JaeReed]

I'm not moving off Cakez so... there's that.

That said, I don't think Math is scum currently.

[JaeReed]

New edit: I will hold my vote for a little time while I go through CFJ's ISO to try and figure why he was killed over -say- JR (who is CONFIRMED, y'know)

I asked Nahdia to jk me last night.

CFJ was good at rallying town, which is my guess for why he was killed, but i want to go through the neighbourhood from last night's stuff because I did give him meta on Math that gives leeway to Math!town and I can't remember precisely what he said about it.

[JaeReed]

I get the strong feeling that someone has overclaimed this game (i.e. claimed a stronger role than they actually have); such a player is highly likely to be scum.

That was Mathblade claiming BP to claim they were shot at thus earning town credit. Such claim (being shot at) was nullified by Yoshi's claim.

He was talking about Giovanni there I believe.

[JaeReed]

Eight ergo Nahdia JaeReed and I are Town block.

I actually don't trust either of you enough to want to townblock with you.

[JaeReed]

I confirm Nahdia and I confirm JaeReed.

How is Nahdia confirmed?

How is Nahdia's role being confirmed a reason that Nahdia is town?

[JaeReed]

Er... Walk me through how Nahdia can't be one of Gaster's followers? Or how they're scum with me when you have it CONFIRMED to you that I am a VT?

[JaeReed]

Like, why do you not find it plausible that Nahdia can jailkeep yet still be scum?

[JaeReed]

But why would a Nahdia red flip make me scum too? I'm not following that in the slightest.

Why is it not plausible to you that the killings are coming from the followers and Maxous had the kill prior as an SK/Cult Creator upon death type role, which got passed down to his faction?

I don't like that you're SK hunting over scum hunting. I believe the killings are coming from the scum faction, which we now have evidence actually exists and that their roles are irrelevant.

[JaeReed]

Because I checked you as VT post Maxous. If you were not a VT you wouldn't have given me a VT check. So Nahdia and you scum is ridiculous.

No, that means ME scum is ridiculous. Why did you say if Nahdia's scum it is with me? Why can Nahdia not be scum without it being with me?

[JaeReed]

CFJ believed that the follower faction could have existed prior to Maxous flip due to the way Cakez distributed his actions and the inventions he possessed, ftr.

[JaeReed]

Other things in the hood CFJ said overnight since I'm pretty sure we have to have scum in there anyway:

He was pretty sure SirCakez was trying to mislynch A50, and felt he had to stop the A50 wagon because of it.
Part of the SirCakez scumread was from associatives with MathBlade, because Math looked like they really wanted A50 lynched and to stop the SirCakez lynch by any means despite the arguments making no logical sense and trying to look like they weren't doing that at the same time.
He believed the standard red colour of SirCakez flip implied it was the primary scum team.
He believed it was possible, maybe probable that Gaster recruited a normal scumteam upon death, and this is implied because he was caught first out of the scum. Cakez role seems more like a role that CFJ thought the cult believed would be a good role to convert.
He believed we could have had a normal scumteam the whole time, possibly 4 or 5 to start, meaning 2 or 3 left, themed around Gaster and Maxous was a kind of self-Janitor. Backed by janitor flips normally being in a different color to avoid giving away information. He said usually they're grey, but he thought the general theme of the wingdings messages meant purple would make sense too. This theory fits in well with how his reads are throughout the game but requires most of the odd happenings to be explained as scum trolling, and he wasn't sure the game balance would add up there. He floated maybe there's groupscum who can't kill including Maxous, and a third party who can.

He was skeptical about Nahdia being confirmed to be able to roleblock confirming them as town from what I can gather.

He explained why Ank not hammering either large wagon yesterday was a strong indication he isn't third-party, and how his questions were intended to figure out whether Ank was third party. Ank's answers struck him as really town. He said a groupscum Ank could have hammered A50 without anything thinking badly of him and it'd have been the best move for him as scum to do so with the counter on cakez starting. Ank explicitly stated he would be willing to hammer A50 if he thought he was scum, basically.

He agreed with Nahdia that the created Maxous faction is the scum team, and said it wasn't clear still whether it was something created on a night by night with delayed recruitment or whether it was created upon lynch, or standard cult turned mafia upon Maxous lynch. He said depending on the answer the potential teams change a fair bit.

He said the players implying it was likely Maxous victory chances died with him was an unlikely conclusion to draw and it'd be convenient if you were cult or in a pre-existing Maxous faction.
He said delayed recruitment seems implausible from a balance perspective and the timing with the delay before night is consistent with creation upon lynch, but it's possible we've had a single group all along at like 4 players with the advantage of a misleading town roleset.

He said Math scum plus Gio town doesn't work if the recruitment setup is a delayed night by night recruitment.

Of note: He wanted examples of Math using bad reasoning to read people as town to see if it was plausible. When I provided such he didn't provide much apart from admitting Math's failure of reasoning is evident there as well. He also said he read through Nahdia scum in the game I provided and still had nothing more than a nullread on them here.

Said that other than bodyguard cakez role had things that would be useful to scum which is why it's believable from his night actions that he was scum from the start. FBI Agent is useful to groupscum even if given to town because they also benefit from knowing who is/isn't an SK, and the usage of bodyguard first when it's usually a role not useful early because you need information about who's likely to be nightkilled to aim it, which would make sense if scum wanted to save the useful roles until they could have more impact or safely be given to a buddy.

[JaeReed]

Also, directly after that last bit he asked me who was scum if MathBlade was town.

[JaeReed]

The argument is Maxous could be dead for all intents but have a PT with his followers.

Why is this so unbelievable to you given that in Shadowrun we had abilities where town could have a PT with the dead?

[JaeReed]

VOTE: MathBlade

One of this or Nahdia is scum. Maybe both. Nahdia following Math on bad reasoning for A50 today is awful given what's in the hood from CFJ and how yesterday played out.

[JaeReed]

Except he didn't townread you at all. His last words to me were to try to prove to me that assuming you as town doesn't make sense at all with the gamestate.

Talking about mental gymnastics....That is exactly what I am voting you for. This is not paranoia. This is your scumminess reaching such a height that I can't even justify not scumreading you anymore and I don't care if I get lynched for it afterwards.

[JaeReed]

And you trying to frame it as paranoia is more evidence of why you are scum.

You've been trying to discredit me from the start when I started on cakez. More evidence. Everything points to you. Absolutely everything. I'm not ignoring your play for the word of someone I don't know is town to start with, nor for a result that we can't be sure means anything given what has happened prior in this game.

[JaeReed]

^ Deflection, another scum tactic.

[JaeReed]

You can't have your cake and eat it it too. Actually, your "Cakez" had the rope already, and it's time for you to eat it too.

[JaeReed]

Then where's your vote?

I don't want today to be drawn out and induce more apathy.

[JaeReed]

Why?

[JaeReed]

Alright.

[JaeReed]

Gio, who is scum then?

[JaeReed]

My fear is we've been relying too much on mechanics and speculation that we are not actually scum hunting based on content.

+

Also worth noting was who rushed to discredit me when I first floated Cakez based on his play.

[JaeReed]

Don't forget Cakey trying to get you lynched!!! dat scum theatre amirite?

[JaeReed]

Anyway, right now I think MathBlade is the only logical lynch for today. I do not believe that they honestly can't understand any of the arguments being presented and are genuinely misinterpreting it. I think it's a scum tactic in order to try to obfuscate the issue at this point.

This is also why I'd rather it be done sooner rather than later.

[JaeReed]

Otherwise SirCakez stays silent and then we have "proof" Nahdia's Jailkeep works.

So the only way Gio is scum is if he was converted on N5. Not before which means Maxous was ascetic.

I don't care if her jailkeep works.

I care she can't kill. Making her not scum.

Which after my mislynch Nahdia is confirmed not to have killed CFJ.

no see i could be a special magic ninja that shows as visiting someone other than who i kill.

Stop that. There are perfectly logical reasons why you can be scum.

You could have been recruited after Maxous lynch (therefore rendering Narna's check moot).
SirCakez flipped with his role being Inventor, so you probably kept your jailkeep.
MathBlade made it very clear who they were tracking yesterday and that they had a tracker from SirCakez (they think they didn't make it painfully obvious but they did). If you're scum there you just make the suboptimal move of jailing me and have a buddy submit the kill.

Do I think you're likely scum? Dunno, but the sarcasm really isn't helping when you could be making logical arguments. And yes, I know you probably don't feel like it, but snarky comments aren't helping. At all. Especially when you're just accepting Math's bad logic on you as for granted then in the same page saying I'm "confirmed" VT like you don't believe it. It's an inconsistency with your play because you want to be snarky.

[JaeReed]

Okay hold up.

That message? It read "A new faction has been created.
MY FACTION."

Throw every single read you've had this game out the window. The scum faction only just got created.

VOTE: Nahdia

I still think this is a case of having too much information. Like, what exactly there pointed to the scum faction only being created rather than a cult as you'd assume from the third party coloring of the Maxous flip?

A Maxous faction could have been turning it multiball or a cult creation, yet Nahdia jumps to assume here that it's THE scum faction just being created.

[JaeReed]

UNVOTE:

Eh I want to think on it more. Cakez rushed to discount that theory, but it's not like that's something that couldn't have been partner interactions, I'm just not sure yet. I should read properly before jumping to casting a vote right now.

[JaeReed]

Omg JaeReed why?

*dies a bit inside*

Scum Nahdia would have voted me ages ago and let me hammer.

? Why would scum Nahdia do that? You're clearly pocketed if Nahdia is scum, and flooding the thread with your arguments with everyone which is distracting the thread from scumhunting.

[JaeReed]

id you'd been around for nearly the entire game up to that point, it would make sense to you too.

eh maybe.
I like your avatar btw

[JaeReed]

Omg JaeReed why?

*dies a bit inside*

Scum Nahdia would have voted me ages ago and let me hammer.

? Why would scum Nahdia do that? You're clearly pocketed if Nahdia is scum, and flooding the thread with your arguments with everyone which is distracting the thread from scumhunting.

Because at that point if it is a faction I had conftowned them and as soon as I flip Nahdia scum could rip through the game and blame their not death on wifom get another mislynch then probably lynch Nahdia as too much wifom to not be believed.

But that is assuming that scum don't already win by then.

So Nahdia is almost certainly town.

What if I told you, that no one would have considered Nahdia conftown after your town flip. Absolutely no one. Because no one believes that scum don't make suboptimal night actions in order to not get caught by the tracker. You're the only one in this game right now that believes that Nahdia visiting me and me not dying means anything.

And we don't know how many scum there are.
You're arguing mechanics. I'm going to go look at the play.

[JaeReed]

TBH if there was a culting Math makes sense as a target for it with their thread presence and generally being townread

Cakez was trying to set up Math from the look of this, from the very start. Seems like he's feeling out thread support.

[JaeReed]

I keep fighting til they understand the mechanics that make them conftown. Or someone adequately explains how they aren't which hasn't happened yet. Nahdia didn't kill CFJ.

That means they are Jailkeeper. If they are Jailkeeper then no scum Jailkeeper forgets a submission on D3.

Therefore the only way Nahdia is scum is post N5. Post N5 Nahdia doesn't bus SirCakez.

Yes, the only way Nahdia is scum is post N5, but because of Narna's check on them, not because they forgot to submit an action. Forgetting to submit an action is NAI, as Cakez proved, because he also claimed to have forgotten to submit an action.

IIRC Nahdia wasn't thrilled on the Cakey lynch either?

You're still scum you need to hammer scum. You haven't and until you do I don't believe you.

This is a clear tunnel and confbias now, Math.

[JaeReed]

Andrius who is JaeReed is conf town and got toys twice.

I got toys once.