In Memory

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Hi everyone! I've skimmed through the thread and I'm going to try to read it through in detail over the next couple of days. Any and all players willing to give me a synopsis will become my heroes now and forever. Also, why is Creature the Sun and what does that mean..and why was Voldemort town? And why are so many people voting me?

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Also, why is Creature the Sun and what does that mean..and why was Voldemort town? And why are so many people voting me?

If this flips town then I'm a flying hedgehog.

Proper flying, or just flung horizontally? I'm not sure I can condone hedgehog abuse.pr..

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I've read through page 20. Current thoughts: Creature and Gamma are absolutely town. DEO and Lycanfire are next most likely. I don't get why people jumped all over Clemency. It seemed really opportunistic.

More later.

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Thank you! Merry Christmas to you and everyone else.

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Caught up.

First, I honestly don't understand RM for most of this game. I do know she has gone through inactive periods as town (specifically, the end of Wake's Role Madness). Even if no one wants to give my slot the benefit of the doubt, I just can't see experienced players being that clumsy as scum, pressed for time, or not.

Regardless, my flip would be pretty useless at this point. So at least let me fling some of my thoughts in here while the thread is dead.

I was townreading Lycan for his derpy entrance, but there has been weirdness. I did a quick meta review (since that was an early argument against them). I can see this being a scum game for them. This list makes me really uncomfortable too.

Spoiler:

town { postie, kuroi, klingoncelt, creature, zefiend, deimos }
townlean { vedith, creeps20}
scumlean { gamma emerald, rachmarie, DEO, jaereed}
kingscum { drealmerz7 }

It's a tough game because we only have one flip. Night kills dwindle our numbers, but they at least give us some good information.

This is my feel so far.

Towny {Creature, Gamma Emerald, DEO, JaeReed, Vedith/Vaxkiller}
Meh {Klingoncelt, ɀefiend, Delmos27}
Scummy {drealmersz7, LycanFire, Creeps20, KurioXHF}
(I realize this is probably more suspects than scum slots, but I can't decide between Creeps and Kurio who to bump up to "Meh" status)

I left out Postie for a reason. They're not "meh", they're in my aggressively undecided box. See, Gamma has the funky vote thing too, but it's balanced in a way. Postie proved that they were voteless Day 1, but why would Gamma be wonky and Postie not? Either Postie lied to town, or they didn't. If they lied, and they're Gamma's opposite, it would stand to reason that one is scum and the other town. Postie, if you claim voteless, could you cast a vote each day to confirm?

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Talk to me about your townreads on Creature and GE?

Creature has acted like town, and I can't think of any reason why scum would want to prevent night phases. Especially N1, if this was 1-shot (I can't see this lasting forever). My reasoning here is that while both town and scum become increasingly accurate in their NAs over time, Scum benefit more N1 than town usually does. Any dead town is helpful. Random investigations and protections, lessso. So it would be better to skip night when you know someone is onto you, or you are at an advantage of some sort. Not right away.

Gamma plays a very open town game. At this point, I think I've played more games with Gamma than not, and I think I have a good feel for him. I get that he runs counter to site meta, which can upset people, but this is how he plays town. He listens to others, weighs it with his own assessment, and is open to suggestion (to a point). He's usually low-hanging fruit, so much so that he's practically a scum-trap.

Also I don't like the focus on roles at the latter half of this.

Okay? I don't like to shy away from topics that will help sort players. Especially when there's little-to-no risk to town. Though, I realize anything to do with roles invokes knee-jerk reactions in many of the fine denizens of this forum. However, in Postie's case, the claim was made already. I'm just asking for verification.

Why would your flip be useless?

Because RM (I mean this in the nicest possible way) was a hot mess who said/did almost nothing helpful. If you guys had lynched her a week ago, it would have given you no help at all. I daresay it would have been even more pointless than SS/KTS's lynch (and that's saying something). I might be mistaken, but I'm under the impression that my slot is in the bottom half of everyone's read list. I don't have a lot of experience playing town, and I'm not sure that I have the skill to reverse enough scum reads. So I figure that if nothing else, I can at least leave some candid views and useful interaction behind.

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@Lycan - I only looked at two town games of yours. Hence, why it wasn't enough stand-alone. I don't think I'm good enough with stale meta, on someone I've never run across, to make a full case out of it.

I'm not voting you or anyone yet because I don't think it's very wise to place a vote when like 10/14 players, plus the mod, are still out for their holiday. It's one thing to read a game, and another to actually participate.

I'm not sure if I'd rather do drealmerz today. He would be my top scum read except that he's also yours. So either you're bussing, or one of you isn't scum. I'll check out the game where you bussed your partner early, before proceeding.

One thing I agree with you on whole-heartedly, Lycan, is how ridiculous the sheepy vote hopping between us has become. They certainly prefer to be on me over you, which may be telling. Of course, I'm the lowest hanging fruit in the game, so scum can sheep my wagon in safety.

Either way, give me time to think.

I'm at my best switching between interaction, and then a processing period.

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If they lied, and they're Gamma's opposite, it would stand to reason that one is scum and the other town.

Why?

It makes sense to give scum and town alternating days of higher vote power in a game where nights can be skipped.

Postie, if you claim voteless, could you cast a vote each day to confirm?

VOTE: Postie

Thank you! I know you didn't have to help, and I appreciate it. This gives me (and I assume the rest of us) one more square of solid ground to work from.

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Why are you so sure that it was definitely Creature that stopped the night phase?
Why can't Creature (if it was him that caused the night skip) be compulsive and basically a scum negative utility?
How has Creature "acted like town"?

He was announced as "the sun", and then we didn't have night. I just saw this as a 1+1=2 kind of thing. I guess I didn't account for compulsive negative scum things on account that I don't know what they are. Maybe I'm missing something big? As for Creature apart from the sun thing, he's been nonchalant, unworried, and free with opinions that seem towny but not in a sheepy way.

Can you pick out a handful of posts that you feel are particularly indicative of town!Gamma in that he is fitting with your view of him as follows "listens to others, weighs it with his own assessment, and is open to suggestion (to a point)"?

It's basically his whole ISO, but when I'm back at a computer tomorrow I can grab a few for you.

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lycan's wagon was at L-1 for a while with no hammer, the only way scum don't hammer that? if the wagon already has ALL THE SCUM on it, or it is scum

I'm ashamed to admit that this makes sense to me.

Are there other plausible possibilities that my lazy brain is glossing over?

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@JaeReed - I'm glad I've had to dig through Gamma's ISO, because I found some stuff in there I've never seen from him before, and he's lacking a certain tentativeness that I've seen in other games, which I find concerning. However, I've included a few examples of his usual open-minded, collaborative behavior.

Spoiler:

No I'm pretty sure that reaction was real
I don't like Shadow's response to DEO's vote
In fact the DEO vote itself was pretty bad
VOTE: Shadow_Step

OK that makes sense
VOTE: RachMarie

I think I trust Kuroi enough rn to vote with him.
VOTE: Creature

I don't want to believe Vedith and Shadow are BOTH scum but they are so in sync it feels that way.
I kinda feel that if one isn't scum it would be Shadow.

@Gamma, can you provide your current thoughts on Dreal?

@Ziefiend, I always try hard. It's a lifestyle.

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We could also flashwagon.

We have 5 days left, so it isn't a matter of "we don't have time"

This seems less-than-ideal. At this point in the game, it lets scum sheep all the way to a hammer. I keep feeling more and more that the majority of the scum team is among those "out for the holiday" as a convenient way watch and wait.

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@Jaereed, I am waiting on Gamma's response. Like I said, I was a little concerned when I read through his ISO. In context, he's seemed normal to me, but in ISO, there's less doubt and more hard edge than I'm used to seeing with him. It may be something.

Obviously, Kuroi has been in my lower reads. I've been doubting Lycan's scumminess more and more, but not quite enough to join a wagon with him. I think I like Kuroi for scum more than Creeps.

Kilingon's bubble claim is too far-fetched to be fake. She doesn't seem to totally agree with KTS, but feels obligated to share, which also supports it. I've followed a couple KTS games, and he has decent intuition.

VOTE: Kuroi

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@kurio Could you tell me why you think creature could be scum?

Because he acts detached and quiet when he's scum.

How does he act as town? do you have examples?

Regardless of Boring's alignment, scum are avoiding the boring wagon.

It sounds like you're referring to more than one. Who's the scum team that's avoiding my wagon?

I still think we need to lynch boring, thier vote of kurio is bad to say the least, just scrambling for something to turn away the wagon on them.

I had kuroi in my scum list when I first caught up, and posted as much. Who's next after me in your scum list?

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Boring: you said d7 was your top scumread so why are you making jaereed's flash wagon your alt wagon?

I feel less conflicted about Kuroi.

@Klingoncelt, can you ghost-bubble me too? It sounds kind of fun.

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@Creeps20, Kuroi is the biggest not-boring wagon (with twice the numbers of any other counters!) Feel free to join us.

@mhsmith0, hi! Please be town.

@Everyone, Happy New Year from a boring drunk and her snoring spousyman! 2017 is a really funky number.

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I actually agree with Postie here. Though being Arwen, I'm a little disturbed by the reference.

If you guys are lynching me, let's get this over with. There are at least two scum on my wagon right now, assuming our two voteless players are town (an increasing "if"). That leaves one for the hammer (if they're smart -- unless they've already put all their eggs in my basket). That leaves those off my wagon, post-hammer, as pretty safe townreads for the rest of you.

If we're not lynching me today, there's a fair bit of content in this game. My slot is/was the lowest-hanging fruit available, but since when does it benefit town to go after the easiest lynch? Is there seriously no one in this game with a scummier presence than my slot? If so, why aren't you/we talking about it? Quiet, lazy towns don't win games. A plague of townies acting like scum with opportunistic, sheepy votes doesn't win games.

It's fair to assume that everyone will be checking in before the end of the day, so it's not too late make a new choice, or at least get some kind of discussion going.

Oh and FYI I don't think Rach Marie was fake V/LA obv it is a matter of when Town she leaves something to go off of and instantaneously posts reads. Neither happened here.

How is she going to do that when she's too busy to even read the game? Her posts, reads, and votes were bizarre from any perspective. It's pretty obvious that she was too distracted to give this game much thought, and I just don't see how that's AI. Unless you really think the sum of her/my work was more likely motivated by a scum role than a town role, then your reasons for scumreading her/me are faulty. (this goes for the whole wagon, not just you).

p-edit -- yikes, that timing. JaeReed, we might have the same song and dance tomorrow, or we might return with better information, pulling me out of the scum pool.
p-p-edit -- I'm loved, not lover. Dreal. I believe there's a big difference.

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Time for one last post. If you guys just ignore this, Imma talk so much smack about all of you from the dead thread. I might even break out a few yo mama jokes, that's how serious I am.

Boring - Town! Which will make all of this relevant in like 17 hours.

KuroiXHF - Scummy. He's had one-off posts, unsupported votes, and a generally scummy tone. And a fair bit of beetlejuice. These could be all written off as a scummy playstyle, except he's had very little confrontation over it. If he was town, scum would be taking the opportunity to lay the ground work at least for his mislynch tomorrow. None of that is happening. Everything aimed at Kurio has appeared to be general inquiry or earnest investigation. That's not the way scum approach potential lynchbait.

LycanFire - Leans more town with every post. I guess this illustrates the difference between reading a game and playing it in real time.

drealmersz7 - Lycan is right. Why all the vote hopping if he believed his meta argument all along? It's not like RM has been active posting in this thread for the past week and something changed his mind. The whole thing is shady. By the way, in my last game, I subbed into one where he was scum and I was town. His play is the same in all three games. This is might be the only redeeming factor, actually, because I just can't see scum purposely calling attention to the fact that they're playing like scum. Unless he's delusional.

Mhsmith0 - I find it suspicious that he'd make a vote at this juncture without exploring it. No questions for me, no questions for those not on my wagon. Since there's little to go on for my lynch anyway beyond "hur dur, she's being weird", you'd think he'd think about it first. He's certainly not hesitated to bring on a full inquisition in the past. So keep an eye on him.

Creature - Probably lazy town.

The DEO - The emperor has no pants, but they're probably town.

Gamma Emerald - I was thinking town at first, but now, I'm not so confident. There's 2.5 possible explanations for GE's altered behavior. 1) he's responded to all the crap he's gotten for being flaky, and is trying to be more like the other one-liner players. He's doing that because he's a) scum, trying to avoid a lynch by conforming, or b) town, and he's doing it as something new. Or, 2) he's scum, and we're seeing his scum game.

Vaxkiller - Vedith seemed pretty town. Vax's posts seem towny enough, I guess.

Postie - Probably town. I can see votelessness making a player lazy.

Creeps20 - Really opportunistic with zero scum-hunting effort. If they weren't "hated" (and therefore probably town) I'd say scum for sure.

JaeReed - Very obvious town. He's defending his town read (yay for one person on my side!), he's scum-hunting, he's being transparent in his process, and he's actively working to solve the game.

ɀefiend - No AI reason to scum-read, but I find the low activity uncomfortable.

Klingoncelt - The bubble thing, the transparency, and the efforts to solve are enough for the town pile.

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No worries Lycan, it was a doomed slot.

Twilight drops her curtain down, and pins it with a star.

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One of the down sides of daytalk is that when things go badly for scum team it can get unpleasant.

The scum thread was abusive long before the end of day 1. More's the pity, since the game setup would have been a lot of fun for the scum team.