Open 664 - Tit for Tat (Mafia Wins)

[innocentvillager]

will check in at some pt

[Lil Uzi Vert]

VOTE: Spade Ace

Obvious scum.

If Bang reads this thread backwards, I want him autolynched

@Kop, can you explain? Also why is spade an obv scum to you?

And with what looks like the first serious vote casted, RVS is now officially over.

UNVOTE:

Early reads are still a little rough since alot of these feels like nonsense to me. But serious vote.

VOTE: Alisae

Why is Alisae your top SR?

@LUV, why are you in a hurry to announce that RVS is over? That sounded a bit odd though NAI.

I wasn't in a hurry.

[Hawk]

You're trying to get us out of RVS. Scum feel super uncomfortable in RVS.

Fair enough. Townread Alisae. I may have tried to move us out of RVS fairly quickly as this is my first forum mafia game and I'm a bit excited to play lol.

UNVOTE: Alisae

This is quite a fast U turn. Scumreading Hawk at the end of page 5 for this though on page 5, I liked Hawk's #116.

Also agree with Malakittens' #124. In RVS, FoS are flying around everywhere. Scum is not happy with this. They wibe happy to buddy up with some and decrease circle of suspicion. That also gives them some townie points. So at the end of pg 5, LUV is under my FoS, as is Hawk and I soft-townread Malakittens for this

Why does it seem like everyone doesn't like this?

Maybe it's just me and how I'm used to playing Mafia but gauging a reaction from everyone by casting the first "serious" vote is how I was taught to play.

I serioused Alisae to see what happened. LUV unvoted and asked why. Kop unvoted. I responded in a general to get a reaction post. Aelin unvoted. Aubrey responded with thoughts. Mala rolled her eyes and said she'd be back later most importantly Alisae finally responds and actually engages me. I read her as town since most of my scum read was fluff and gut and like that she engages me. Even say this is all soft. I (to myself) Note that CD and Spade did not get involved in this section. So next I casually drop some soft reads and throw CD there to see if he will respond...

Do people not do this during RVS? Quiet town is dead town. If no one has made any scum tells or said anything questionable probe people with even the smallest of scum nudges. I suppose to most it might seem sporadic and scummy but I just wanted to start conversation. I even mention that maybe I was hasty to throw this around since it's my first forum game.

Still as it stands I felt like we got a lot of useful information out of that early RVS transition...

FWIW I'm still leaning Mala and CD as scum. They still haven't provided much content or analysis. I know Mala is working but I don't know why CD hasn't said much.

[Hawk]

Hey IV. Can you explain 321 to me? Are you talking to Spade or Aelin here? and can explain your reasoning for not scum reading them if they're posting "scummy" things.

[Hawk]

I messed up the BBCode. 321

[Malakittens]

Hawk when did I protest?

[Hawk]

Hawk when did I protest?

Protest what? My early play? You didnt. First sentence was a Hyperbole.

You protested the read list later which for me was more a soft list and more a way to bring you and CD into the conversation.

Speaking of which still no substantial reads right? Any thing standing out or wanting elaboration on?

[Malakittens]

Considering I just posted yesterday in regards to my reads I doubt anything would change in less than 24 hrs

[Malakittens]

Also I didn't protest your reads list. I didn't have a problem with you posting it. I had a prOnly which the reads itself

[Hawk]

Fair enough Mala. So you liked that I presented information just not the information presented?

Do you think Aelin is scum Mala?

[bangthemafia]

@Aubrey, thanks a lot for teaching that Spoiler= tag. I also almost committed the same mistake.

Sorry guys, I have been really busy. Could read till page 8. Will soon read rest and post my thoughts.

Comments on page 6,

Spoiler:

As for Alisae's play, I think she's being herself for the most part. The self-vote, the attempt to rolefish in 73, and the pretending to not what know Pokémon is only brought unnecessary attention to herself. Something scum don't want.

Seems rather NAI to me.

You are quiet keen on defending Alisae's play so far as NAI. Is there a reason?

How is that defending? I didnt agree with the town lean given. Her actions seemed basically nai at the time. Do you disagree?

Wrong. Whoever told you that getting someone out of RVS is a scum-tell is wrong. Scum like to stay in RVS. It distracts the game play and makes it easier to blend in.

I don't fully agree with this. Scum have been known to try and get the game rolling early on in order to look protown as well...

Nothing is wrong with having reads this early as long as they aren't solid and you're willing to change them.

I can agree with this. I'm on the fence with Hawk, but like...why would scum start posting read lists and limit their options? Should a juicy wagon start to form on a town lean that they gave, they would have to do some backpedaling or at least justify a reason to join. Then again, they could just follow someone's reasoning I guess, and throw their soft town lean into the wind. Either way, I think I can give him a

soft

town lean for now. I feel like scum wouldn't be as tempted to give a reads list unless pressured into it.

@Aubrey, agree with you here on "Pushing town out of RVS fast" is NOT necessarily townish. Scum may try to get some townie points by doing that. In return they gain some lynchbaits and possible wagons. But for the same reason, I would disagree with your "why would scum start posting read lists and limit their options?". Precisely to get some townie points. As early as day 1, scum is least bothered about whether circle of suspicion is big enough or not- coz mostly it WILL be so. They dont have to take efforts to keep the suspect pool big- coz devoid of any confirmed info, its anyway going to be high. On the contrary, they will try hard to blend as town. And one super useful and popular way is to form reads even if they are forced. It will NOT harm them by decreasing suspect pool coz eveybody is gonna say, these are soft reads or fluff or things like that. But what it will sure do is get them some "serious scumhunting townie points".

Mala is scum
Hawk is town
Alis is town

Don't ask me to justify these yet these are just gut, I'll let you guys know when to take my opinions seriously if I can find reasoning

@IV, If you dont want anyone to take your opinions seriously, why did you give the above reads? Especially when 2 posts down you say its all mixed vibes flying everywhere? Is it to show that you are seriously scumhunting?

why would scum start posting read lists and limit their options?

I can WIFOM this all fucking day.

Agree

Wow dudes I don't know this game idk what to think

Getting mixed vibes all around

Really? How about your above reads then?

On page 7,

Spoiler:

I liked Kop for questioning Alisae for having a scum lean but not voting in #161 & 162.

But found it strange the way Alisae almost sheeped Hawk and voted for Mala though both Alisae and Hawk also scumread each other. Hawk atleast gave some reasons in #155. But I couldnt find any reasons from Alisae for voting Mala. Hawk also noticed and pointed this out in #165, and I like him for that.

Wow dudes I don't know this game idk what to think

Getting mixed vibes all around

What happened here? You went from what seemed like somewhat sturdy guy reads to being vexed all around.

take a wild guess

VOTE: aubrey

And this post is super scummy!

Summary-
End of page 7-
Aubrey, Kop, Kaines town lean
IV, Hawk, Mala scum lean (Hawk joined just 7 days back)
Alissa Null to scum lean
Aelin, LUV, CD, Spade Null

On page 8,

Spoiler:

Nothing much except KT's trolling. KT, if you are a town, dont do this please. Its a big distraction. And then you are not adding much to scumhunting.

Also, Mala's #191 looked quite genuine.

But this caught my eye on Page 8 most-

I scumlean you both. I scumlean Mala harder.

Didn't you just say Hawks pressuring on Mala seemed genuine and a town thing to do though...?

I scumlean you both. I scumlean Mala harder.

Didn't you just say Hawks pressuring on Mala seemed genuine and a town thing to do though...?

Obviously

Alissae seems quite jumpy here. And Aubrey has pointed that out rightly.

dumb questions are scummy

dumb questions are scummy

I don't see how the question is dumb.
VOTE: Innocentvillager

IV is definitely climbing up in my scumreads. But I found it very interesting that Alissae jumped on IV leaving her Mala case suddenly. So Alissae scumread Hawk and Mala here, Mala more than Hawk, but suddenly voted for IV?? Quite strange!!

My Summary-
End of page 8-
Aubrey, Kop, Kaines strong town lean
Hawk, Mala Null to slight town lean
IV, Alissae scum lean
Aelin, LUV, CD, Spade Null

[bangthemafia]

Also, keep posting your comments on whatever I posted. But I am not going to read or respond till I finish reading all the pages to avoid getting biased. Wanted to have a fresh perspective. Will reply to all accumulated comments after I am done.

[Alisae]

I was saying contradictory things to see who would push it.
Basicly I was trying to set myself up to be lynch bait.

[bangthemafia]

On page 9,

Spoiler:

What's so confusing about Hawk?

I dunnow what is.
I keep on thinking he's scum.
Then I think he's town.
Then I think he's scum.
I dunno ;~;

This was quite a townie post. But then we could WIFOM it too.

Mala Null, Scumlean
InnocentVillager Scum.
Hawk Null
Kop town.
Aubrey Town
Kain Town.
Aelin Townlean
Everyone else, null.

It may be me being paranoid but I am suspicious that you only town read me after I've only made 8 posts, and 6 of them were questioning your mentality. Are you trying to pocket me?

Full townie points here. A scum will never FoS someone who is townreading them.

This whole game i have been focused on discerning the scum from the town and trying to improve my player reading skill. Its been kind of hard for me but then i got to post 218 and thought, that is it, there has to be scum between IV and Mala because they wouldnt exchange like that if both were scum and it doesn't make sense if both are town because i then got to post 220 and it made it clear that IV isnt town in my eyes. The way IV shrugs off the suggestion that they make it clear which posts they are responding to looked scummy to me. How can someone just not care about whether or not their posts are clear and understood? How can a town aligned player not care if he makes the town as a whole more confused and in a roundabout way essentially leave the town with less information? For now my vote rests on IV.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: InnocentVillager

I will go through their ISO now that i have a concise read and know how i feel about them.

~Jin~

I hav played with Jin. And this is 100% town!Jin.

On page 10,

Spoiler:

I liked the way Jin/CD pointed out that IV is not equivalent to Transcend or Creature.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=65370

That game Kain was scum. Just with the less capitals.

Could you link a town game of his? I just skimmed his ISO in the game you just linked and I oddly feel I can tell the difference between his scum and town game as hard as that may be to believe.

I don't know how much I'll be around today. Happy holidays! I expect activity to be down tomorrow and today. I'd like to see more votes being cast, and not just talk.

Mr. LUV... if you had to place a vote, where would it go? My gut isn't pleased by you so far.

Honestly the only way I'd be able to answer you is if I were to lie. I'm just not feeling strongly about anyone for scum yet.

Thanks KT!

So Kain as scum pushes things that are more NAI like activity and uses a lot of ATE. More than most people think he does. He also uses the "If I was scum, why would I _____?" excuse which is always a scum tell in my book.

As town, he actually pushes things that are scummy. In a town game he just linked, I recall him voting someone for attempting to rolefish and putting pressure on someone for ignoring him and not his answering questions. He also asks questions that seem to move the game forward.

Of course, this is off a 10 minute skim so should probably be taken with a grain of a salt.

Both these posts looked quite townie to me. Thanks LUV for taking pains to meta KT.

On page 11,

Nothing special. Except KT shouting "I M TOWN" again and again.

My Summary-
End of page 11-
Aubrey, Kop, CD (mainly due to Jin) strong town lean
Hawk, Mala, LUV Null to slight town lean
IV, Alissae scum lean
Aelin, Spade, Kaines (due to LUV's research on KT's playstyle not ruling out scumplay) are all Null

[bangthemafia]

I was saying contradictory things to see who would push it.
Basicly I was trying to set myself up to be lynch bait.

WTF. Why would a town!you do that?

By the way I always find this whole "reaction testing" too convenient afterthought!

[bangthemafia]

I m in the middle of page 12, and dont even want to complete the page lest I forget my thoughts. Noticed these posts-

Thanks KT!

So Kain as scum pushes things that are more NAI like activity and uses a lot of ATE. More than most people think he does. He also uses the "If I was scum, why would I _____?" excuse which is always a scum tell in my book.

As town, he actually pushes things that are scummy. In a town game he just linked, I recall him voting someone for attempting to rolefish and putting pressure on someone for ignoring him and not his answering questions. He also asks questions that seem to move the game forward.

Of course, this is off a 10 minute skim so should probably be taken with a grain of a salt.

Uzi, I can't help think that you're telling

Uzi

KT "Hey, just play your town game and you won't get caught as scum."

If Kain is well known about being able to slip around people as scum, why would Scum Uzi hint to Scum KT to play his town game in order to not get caught? He even mentions this in post 142.

wait what

i misinterpreted your comment completely then

nvm not sure if i agree

??? What did you think she was saying

I AM TOWN,, and i hope you notice the WASHING WATER nature of innocent villager that is why i am VOTING HIM!!!!!!!!

Kain it would be easier if you explained exactly what washing water is and why it makes innocent villager scummy

Pretty sure this is his version of WASHING WATER

thats what made me so sure NINOMASAKI was scum in the KIDS WITH GUNS game i linked. no strong views, she only ever says I THINK X MAY BE TOWN BUT NOT SURE or I THINK Y MAY BE SCUM BUT MAYBE NOT,, very washing water, VERY SUSPICIUOS!!!

VOTE: innocentvillager

Not liking his posts so far. They all seem ambiguous.

Is it just me, or does this post seem very opportunistic.

Now that I think abou it, has Spade really done anything to progress the game?

Now that I think abou it, has Spade really done anything to progress the game?

i get that feeling too,, he is also a water washer

For me, this literally makes Alissae the most opportunistic player in this game. Its almost as if she builds a case, tries a wagon, sees if people are gonna sheep her, and if unsuccesful tries another case. From throwing suspicion on Hawk (but not voting), then Mala (while hanging her stand on Hawk on fence), then IV (coz he "discredited" those asking dumb questions and by that time Mala's wagon started fizzling out), also throwing suspicion on Uzi whether he is hinting to KT, and as soon as Aubrey showed the faulty logic of why Uzi would need to help KT, now suddenly she suspects Spade? For lurking? And so much that she votes him? This is super scummy to me. And if by the time I finish reading pafe 12-18, if I dont find anyone scummier, I am gonna put my vote on Alissae.

[Aubrey]

For me, this literally makes Alissae the most opportunistic player in this game. Its almost as if she builds a case, tries a wagon, sees if people are gonna sheep her, and if unsuccesful tries another case. From throwing suspicion on Hawk (but not voting), then Mala (while hanging her stand on Hawk on fence), then IV (coz he "discredited" those asking dumb questions and by that time Mala's wagon started fizzling out), also throwing suspicion on Uzi whether he is hinting to KT, and as soon as Aubrey showed the faulty logic of why Uzi would need to help KT, now suddenly she suspects Spade? For lurking? And so much that she votes him? This is super scummy to me. And if by the time I finish reading pafe 12-18, if I dont find anyone scummier, I am gonna put my vote on Alissae.

[Alisae]

I was saying contradictory things to see who would push it.
Basicly I was trying to set myself up to be lynch bait.

WTF. Why would a town!you do that?

By the way I always find this whole "reaction testing" too convenient afterthought!

Why would scum!Alisae do this?

[Alisae]

For me, this literally makes Alissae the most opportunistic player in this game. Its almost as if she builds a case, tries a wagon, sees if people are gonna sheep her, and if unsuccesful tries another case. From throwing suspicion on Hawk (but not voting), then Mala (while hanging her stand on Hawk on fence), then IV (coz he "discredited" those asking dumb questions and by that time Mala's wagon started fizzling out), also throwing suspicion on Uzi whether he is hinting to KT, and as soon as Aubrey showed the faulty logic of why Uzi would need to help KT, now suddenly she suspects Spade? For lurking? And so much that she votes him? This is super scummy to me. And if by the time I finish reading pafe 12-18, if I dont find anyone scummier, I am gonna put my vote on Alissae.

So basicly you find me scummy for being paranoid...

[Kop]

VOTE: Spade Ace

Obvious scum.

If Bang reads this thread backwards, I want him autolynched

@Kop, can you explain? Also why is spade an obv scum to you?

I was being sarcastic. Nobody can be obvious scum straight away.

I will get to this properly tomorrow.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

For me, this literally makes Alissae the most opportunistic player in this game. Its almost as if she builds a case, tries a wagon, sees if people are gonna sheep her, and if unsuccesful tries another case. From throwing suspicion on Hawk (but not voting), then Mala (while hanging her stand on Hawk on fence), then IV (coz he "discredited" those asking dumb questions and by that time Mala's wagon started fizzling out), also throwing suspicion on Uzi whether he is hinting to KT, and as soon as Aubrey showed the faulty logic of why Uzi would need to help KT, now suddenly she suspects Spade? For lurking? And so much that she votes him? This is super scummy to me. And if by the time I finish reading pafe 12-18, if I dont find anyone scummier, I am gonna put my vote on Alissae.

So basicly you find me scummy for being paranoid...

It doesn't feel natural is more accurate I think.

[KainTepes]

I was saying contradictory things to see who would push it.
Basicly I was trying to set myself up to be lynch bait.

can you explain what you mean by this PLEASE,, what were you trying to set yourself up as LYNCH BAIT and what were you expecting to see??

if you say contradictory things, EVERYONE is going to push it,, how does that differentiate between town and scum?

[Hawk]

I was saying contradictory things to see who would push it.
Basicly I was trying to set myself up to be lynch bait.

can you explain what you mean by this PLEASE,, what were you trying to set yourself up as LYNCH BAIT and what were you expecting to see??

if you say contradictory things, EVERYONE is going to push it,, how does that differentiate between town and scum?

I agree with KT and would like a response from Alisae.

Right now between her Aelin and Spade I think there maybe one mafia.

Mala still hasn't said anything of substance so I still scumlean/read her but feel like my vote is wasted sitting down there despite KT's second. Can we get some pressure on Spade and or Alisae. Spade is at l-3 so I think this should help some.

VOTE: Spade

[KainTepes]

I'm all up for pressuring SPADE..... SPADE was always scum in all the games i played and his style of playing isnt different from the other games,,

VOTE: SPADE

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Guys, be more careful more next time. Spade is at L-1.