Mini Normal 1862 - Town win.

[Flubbernugget]

Note how he doesn't say which side wins.

What knowledge does this imply I have?

[Naomi-Tan]

Naomi you better explain your case on Gin, because that is what I like to call bullshit.
That's also before the cop claim.

Yeah I think I might of miss read it. I thought gin was saying how you couldn't red read someone for pushing a slip up on words when in that bigger post he did that Think its pretty irreverent now as I think he was just defining two-faces read.

Naomi, do you feel like you've been more shy with your votes this game than you usually do as green? If so, can you explain why that is?

Naomi, answer this please

Im getting there

[All Alone]

UNVOTE:

after rereading the last page I get the impression TwoFace genuinely doesn't think he was coasting. like it doesn't read like a caught scum reaction, at all

not sure where I want my vote rn though

[Naomi-Tan]

Okay I been ignoring things for most of today.. I just felt unmotivated to revist this stuff as it keeps coming back and I didn't wanna keep repeating myself. So.. I was kinda hoping the game would move on and I could just keep supporting and doing what I could.. but as thats not gonna happen lets backtrack to the start of the day and I'll answer everything people have said one by one until everyone is happy.

So here we go;

Skipping anything that said I 'scum slipped' as I've spoken about that at length multiple times and It has me REALLY fatigued.

Mafia tried to deny it happened.

Okay so.. this assumes that 100% of Reds was defending me day one. While RD was defending me so was the following people; Human Sequencer, Gamma, Gin, Alisae and krylea
So. While RD did defend me so did just under half the players if you include myself over half (7/13)
This locally leads onto why RD did defend me. Which could been to gain Green credit. Seeing as I was trying to act as a power player at the time budding me was a good idea to lower any suspicions of her later and If she was planning to take out the better arguing Gray having me on herside would of been a better boon given my actions of just saving a person and talking a train down. Tbh working this out is kinda WIFOM.

Moving on.

Well I'm not fully caught up but the posts I've seen just don't have the same sort of analysis I'm used to. She also made a post saying she was suspicious of me but was afraid to push it. I called her on it.

If she were town there should be no fear. I won't be surprised if magically that fear goes away given other people support it.

This is entirely true, most normally I do analysis to try and work out who reds are and it would make sense from TF's perception to see this. But this is not a normal situation for me. Most games I work out rather shortly who my short list of possible reds are and the ones on the bottom of the scale normally are red. This game the reverse has happened its shaken my gameplay. While normally I have the confidence of having people figgured out in this game Im only really sure of a very small handful of players and am trying to filter the others out (that list is Alisae and Human Sequencer for reference) Normally I can tell the more shinning players from the others and work out where the people who are meh are there is a conditional for this though and that non-biestness. I am aware that i'm prone to biest views on occasion and that leads me to make bad reads and given how much pressure I've gotten Its hard to get that clean read that helps me sort things properly. normally my read lists by page 20 have gotten all by 5 people green and that normally pans out. so far my reads have had a Green who was a Red and thats not good and at one stage I even had a cop as red cause I was convinced there Claim was a lie. This is also not good. My non-fear comes from the confidence that my reads are on point and this game.. they haven't been and thats okay. I was happy to let Grey lead the hunt for a while as he was playing better and had more firm views could argue me to a lynch and had the general skill at convincing people that I lack. Course greys gone now and the pressure is back on me.. and when Im pressured I get demotivated and try to fade away to come back when the heat has moved on as under pressure I suck hard and I can't focus on hunting which leads to the vicious cycle that ends with me being miss lynched due to not being able to focus on removing pressure. In fact in one game I entirely snapped under pressure as one guy kept being horrible and spinning stuff at me.

Moving on

Voted Grey even after claim. This has literally not failed us 2/2 and I'm willing to go for a 3 piece

Errr..... Okay firstly; Why didn't you vote for this after I did so originally.
Secondly; Kinda did, SK isn't a red.
Thirdly these;

UNVOTE: Just had a thought. Given that Gray claimed cop All I gotta do is wait till tomorrow. Unless there is no kill I can be sure there town. So yeah I think we dont need to deal with this till tomorrow.

UNVOTE: Just had a thought. Given that Gray claimed cop All I gotta do is wait till tomorrow. Unless there is no kill I can be sure there town. So yeah I think we dont need to deal with this till tomorrow.

Wow that was poorly written let me try again

Given they claimed cop one of two things will happen tonight
Reds will shoot Grey
or Greys death will be negated by a saving role
This means if Grey is telling the truth there will either be a no kill or a cops corpse. So unless neither of those things happens I don't think we need to do a grey lynch.

Where i work out that hey; if he is Green the reds will take him, if not we are good.

Moving on.

VOTE: Gray Rainbows post Is masterful Red hunting. I don't think I would of spotted all that I'm joining this wagon.


I'll post this now and continue catchup oringally I was going to put my Ircher thoughts at the end ... so I think I will.
I'm unsure where I stand with Ircher right now. I do see the points people have made but If Gray is red and I was wrong (which I believe right now) I can't see a game where Ircher and Gray are on the same team given interactions at this stand Ircher was tunnelling gray for a while and IIRC gray also at one point voted back. If Rainbow haddn't stepped in I could see myself probing Ircher much more to try and work out their red green balance. but as it stands I feel they are likely green. I may look into this if gray flips green. but as it stands I think Ircher is Green by association.

I thought I'd quote this for one reason. To ask a question. Assuming both me and RD was Red Why would I be giving her such praise and being so public and so obvious about our link? If I knew that Grey was going to Flip green wouldn't it just put me in a position of doom given everyones feelings at the time? and If me and RD was both red wouldn't RD losing and flipping red just link us in an unavoidable way? It just seems to me that If this was gonna go down being so strongly connected would just be a terrible idea.

y'all can call me stupid idgaf but Naomi is aware of an enabler role. Anyone who is familiar with that should know that's a possibility. It could just be different mindset of whatever but I just don't Buy she didn't consider enabler a possibility

Why do you keep acting like I haven't admitted that I know of the role. I literally said it on the post after as you pointed it out. its not like I ever tried to deny that I did know about them I said why I didn't consider it but your acting like this is a smoking gun and that I keep denying that they exist but that never happened.

Rainbowdash said Naomi's thing wasn't a slip and Naomi thought Rainbowdash was the smartest pony alive.

Now this might just be me, but buddying up so close an early without much interaction is only town!possible with a mason pair.

I can see 3 possibilities on this one;
1) Masons
2) Reds
3) Someone came along with an essay about the person who just tried and failed to organise a wagon on you over miss using a word and as I was already Biest against his existence It (after reading) came off amazing to me and as they defended me on Greys push I felt like they could be trusted and joined them.

:/

Moving on.

What was the case with the enabler role?

I personally don't know how far I'll dabble into that area because this is my first game with ascetics and enablers

if it were a player who's never heard of or encounterd an enabler role before, I could get somebody saying definitely that scum don't have day talk.

Enabler allows scum to have daytalk

Somebody who is familiar with that role imo should never assume that scum don't have daytalk. If she said probably or something that would be different. She said it like it was fact.

I think she's scum for it. I think she's scum for other things also which I sort of explained so it's not just the slip

As far as I'm concerned unless I see a flip of encryptor or people being inconsistent I'm going to assume that reds don't have day talk. I don't assume Town has a cop or that Reds have a roleblocker or there is a Vig until I have evidence of it. same applies here. There are many roles in mafia

Fun facts while researching this;
Asphodel didn't take a real stance on my slip Nor did AA to my reading. In fact she didn't even talk about it all game.

Why do you want to run down Naomi?

Both days she didn't really have any votes (except by the end of day 2 where she voted Gamma) because I got on her case about it. Also buddying the weakest player has it's risk reward. If she could pull it off (which she did at the time), then she gets towncred from me. If she couldn't she gets lynched. At the time I saw no reason why scum would go out of their way to buddy me when I could have turned into a lynch so that's mostly why I gave her towncredit, but I think Naomi buddied me so that I'd give her towncredit. Also her not voting implies that she's fencesitting.

On D1 I had quite a few votes out. I voted for about 4 people. It was after the RD flip that I got all dislocated and confused as I took a knock to my listing and had to work out what peoples alignment REALLY was. I take my time to vote normally and being So very wrong made me distrust my own reads. I think there unreliable right now. So.. I'm being much less aggressive. Only really pointing at things and seeing if people agree or disagree. but it doesn't help with so much focus on me.. like its hard to work people out from interactions that don't involve me as they have been pretty much everything since post 600. Its kinda like trying to work around your biest but then I question I am giving too much give? Should I be pushing this? I don't like pushing around things that involve me it just blinds me to the truth and there is only so much I can gain from the early game.. so I'm kinda working with facts as that I can trust.. and using connections that seem present.

I mean that she didn't have any votes by the end of the day. But TF what about that statement stands out for you?

I'm guessing you mean D1. I unvoted just before the end of the day. This was my final thoughts before D1 ended on the RD VS. Grey situation;

I have no faith that this town will understand how both of y'all are town and we are not forced to lynch either of you but when it happens, when can I say I told ya so?

About the same time I am.. Grey actions look green and no one puts in as much effort as red as rainbow put into this. I think this is just role BS fuckery. However, Given how much RD put out and the consistancy of grey. I personally think we should keep them both around. If RD is putting in this effort all the time they'll burn out or slip up eventually. Likewise If Grey is faking a cop claim we should know fairly shortly by night actions.

I feel that the thoughtful way both RD and grey examined the game would be more fruitful for us still being in the game. I feel that If RD is read there miss lynches will eventually catchup to them, meanwhile they'll be forced to give indepth insight into how the Reds view us or for today how she does.

Like wise if Grey is red due to his claim he'll be forced to Reveal some other green players to us and though that becomes WIFOM We can assume if he lives long enough he'll be a red. As why leave the cop up for so long and risk being copped.

Least thats my sugar high thoughts on everything. I think its TvT while I'm literally vomiting rainbows.

Also On that Note I checked my last game. Over the course of the game I voted 12 times total. This game took about 5 weeks to complete starting on Friday Nov 04 and ending Dec Friend Nov 09. I am not the kind of player that votes often and in that game I was much more certain of my reads than I am here so a decline is going to happen while I take time to work things out.

OH. Well she had no vote by the end of day 1. This is what she responded when I asked for her scumreads:

During the start of D1 I thought I had the game solved with; Gin and Gamma and Ircher being the red team
Then Interactions happened making -Grey-, Alisae, TwoFace and Human Sequencer Green
Then Gamma Claims and I'm like wut?
Then RD comes out and is like Here is good stuff while -Grey- is red and I'm like; Hmm yeah thats well thought out.. but then turns out there red.. with so much effort too and I'm just confused..
and then this flip I guess Gamma Gin could be the last two remaining red members but I just can't bring myself to trust my gamma read after that claim.. Urgh.. everything is going wrong!

Think that explains it.

Naomi what were your scumreads D1?

You asked me about my Red reads Day 1 not about the current red reads. This is an entirely different question to the one you framed.

Naomi, do you feel like you've been more shy with your votes this game than you usually do as green? If so, can you explain why that is?

Yes I have held back more than normally.
Think its lack of confidence as i'm not used to having my reads go so pear shaped so early on and then constantly questioning my reads as all the focus is around me and trying to eliminate emotions from red tells Its super tricky. My red list is much bigger and Only just forming. It also doesn't help that we end so quickly before deadline as my activity always picks up near then as I feel the pressure of the day ending and want to get things sorted to protect my Green reads and lynch my red reads. So I don't have that fast paced manic back and forthing that I have had in other games. Finally Greens here seem more triggure happy than my usual games which leads me to hold back in case I say something that they wanna lynch me for. Another trigger happy game I was also abnormally vote shy.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p8278130
Though I was replaced at around post 400 I had only voted twice in the day so far (ignoring the double vote)

[Alisae]

Yeah I did. And that's what I meant in that post as well.

[Alisae]

Either way, whats the point of this wall of text again?

[Naomi-Tan]

Yeah I did. And that's what I meant in that post as well.

You'll have to direct me to the part your talking about here as you didn't define at what this is a response to.

Either way, whats the point of this wall of text again?

Answering everything directed that I am red that people have said today.

[Alisae]

You'll have to direct me to the part your talking about here as you didn't define at what this is a response to.

You asked me about my Red reads Day 1 not about the current red reads. This is an entirely different question to the one you framed.

OH. Well she had no vote by the end of day 1. This is what she responded when I asked for her scumreads:

During the start of D1 I thought I had the game solved with; Gin and Gamma and Ircher being the red team
Then Interactions happened making -Grey-, Alisae, TwoFace and Human Sequencer Green
Then Gamma Claims and I'm like wut?
Then RD comes out and is like Here is good stuff while -Grey- is red and I'm like; Hmm yeah thats well thought out.. but then turns out there red.. with so much effort too and I'm just confused..
and then this flip I guess Gamma Gin could be the last two remaining red members but I just can't bring myself to trust my gamma read after that claim.. Urgh.. everything is going wrong!

Think that explains it.

[Alisae]

Also Naomi I think you're starting to sound like self-conscious scum.

[Naomi-Tan]

Yeah I did. And that's what I meant in that post as well.

Thanks for the context.

I quoted your original post where on D2 you asked about my reads D1 this does not equal my reads in the present. fortunately I had already spoken about my reads, in D1, in D2 for me to quote at you.

[Naomi-Tan]

Also Naomi I think you're starting to sound like self-conscious scum.

I'm Always Self-Conscious.

Okay so onto the bulk of stuff. My playstyle Is kinda weird. I don't like dying as either alignment and try to stay alive. this means that sometimes I do actions to just look more green and sometimes and Im suspectable to peer pressure.

I even disclaimer it XD

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

Man did I wake up to some bullshit lmao

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

I'm working on a bigger post right now but first here is something I spotted while going backwards and forwards and just generally trying to look at stuff.

TwoFace and conf!town Grey both thought they caught Naomi in a slip, you can't say it's a scum motivated logic and not the possibility that it's his actual lead.

Naomi also hard defended Rainbow and pushed for Grey, which has been proven to get scum revealed/lynched. So added to that fact, I'm more than willing to lynch Naomi.

It's also good to note that Naomi said she is usually really good at getting reads right, but when she does produce them, she says it in a way that goes like "Hey I think this, but don't trust me, I'm not sure I think it." I'm seeing it as a form of fence sitting so no blame can be attached to her.

The idea came to me to do a mini VA on Grey and report what I see.

I can dig it.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

RVS: Sheepvote, beginning of the game, you can't expect much from anything really.

Anyway, would like to point everyone to my wiki page with an ~30% or so win rate.

VOTE: Ircher

Already making excuses for his poor decisions.

This is still early in the game but it starts a trend I've been following with his voting pattern. Ircher saying he has a low win rate and wanting him lynched sounds like he's pushing for a policy lynch and policy lynches are meant for townies, so to push for one instead of ignoring said townie raises a yellow flag.

I'm not worried about a flash lynch.
I'm just a lot more interested in what Ircher has to say about a Gamma wagon than I am with the players reversed.

Request granted.

VOTE: Gamma

This vote was just a sheep vote, but what I find suspicious about it is that it only took him 15 minutes and one post from HS to say, "I'll go switch my vote because no reason." If Grey actually wanted to pursue a scum read on Ircher, he would have kept his vote on Ircher and pushed him. This vote shows he doesn't actually care who is voted, he just wants someone lynched in general and that's a scum mindset.

Back to my first choice, I've been on Gamma long enough.

VOTE: Ircher

1:22 to 2:39, just a little over an hour and a 40ish posts on the "gamma wagon." That's not "long enough," that's barely any time at all honestly. It didn't allow an actual discussion to form on Gamma. I see the motive as preventing town from actually trying to solve players by forcing the wheel around in circles.

I like 195 and am willing to lend it my vote.

VOTE: Asphodel

It's getting obvious the trend we see in Grey's vote patterns, he's following the wagons onto anyone that has small case being built onto them. He doesn't actually hold opinions of his own and, to funnily enough quote Alisae, is voting without conviction. The difference here is that he does this too many times for it to be a reaction test, he just fence sits and hops onto any opportunity to mislynch that he can get.

BTW Naomi do you think your weak scum read on TwoFace could come from him trying to be lynch bait or something?

What's with the lynchbait paranoia?

It's like you're afraid of getting on the wrong wagon.

VOTE: Alisae

This is actually hindsight talking but the personality traits and voting patterns I see with Alisae is that 1) She is extra careful with her vote and uses it as if it's a loaded gun instead of a tool in the fashion that say, I would use it in; and 2) She strongly believes in having a case built up before voting someone, ergo all that and you get an understandable reason that Alisae simply won't vote TF because instead, she is taking the time to figure out all the possibilities.

What I don't like about the vote is that i'm reading it as Grey is trying to rush Alisae into voting and get her flustered/manipulate her to vote anyone or just cause chaos instead of game solving.

given that Reds have no day talk

How do you know this?

its not in the rules so Im assuming.

"given" is not an assumption, it's a statement of fact.

VOTE: Naomi

You slipped hard.

This is arguing semantics and honestly it's an opportunistic vote. What Grey doesn't do here is look at Naomi at a whole, doesn't look at any possible scum motives or any of that to back up a possible lead. He just found something small he can pick up on and try to build a case but it's a hallow case at best because it's not actually a slip.

So, Gamma is voting me for voting Naomi over a slip, but completely ignoring 2F who is not only sheeping my push but advancing with it after Gamma stated in thread that he doesn't believe it's a slip.

Town Gamma would have picked up on 2F continuing to push what he considers a non-slip and voted him.

Possible Gamma/2F team. (I read 2F as possible scum for other reasons)

VOTE: Gamma

I'm trying to dissect this post and what it's saying:
He says Gamma votes him because Gamma believes it's a non-slip but in reality, he should be voting Gamma should vote TF because TF agreed.

My interpretation is that Grey isn't actually fighting Gamma's response to him, he's attacking the player and not the argument which I find to be a scum tell. Another factor is that Grey is trying to push the blame for the slip onto TF and have Gamma focus on someone else that's not him but it backfired.

Since Gamma claimed Ascetic Enabler, any "no results" results should be insta-lynched because the ascetic(s) is/are scum hiding behind the role.

I'm happy returning to my previous vote.

VOTE: Naomi

The last vote is simple, he is caught with his pants down so he'll continue to push this "scum slip" instead of actually providing a case onto how Naomi is actually scum. I don't see any actual work by Grey trying to actually determine if a player is scum, I'm seeing him go after each opportunity and voting based on the trends on who is wagonable at the time.


I'd vote Grey but I'm going to sleep in an an hour or two so it'd be a waste but expect it when I wake up.

This is inconsistent.

There is literally a 1000 post difference in which each statement was said.

You a gymnast; because damn are you trying to stretch this case?

[Naomi-Tan]

I have an extra bit of stuff for you. Asphodel Last posted Last friday and hasn't said anything since. even accounting for the 2 day night phase I believe he should of been proded by now.

MOD: Asphodel Might need a prod

[Alisae]

GOD DAMMIT GIN YOU SNIPED ME.

[Naomi-Tan]

There is literally a 1000 post difference in which each statement was said.

You a gymnast; because damn are you trying to stretch this case?

Wait.. I contextualised this and Discovered there wasn't a case. But your saying there is a case that can be stretched. what case did you think I was making.

And yes for the record if You really believed there was no way that Greys actions wasn't green you wouldn't of been suspicious about it and would own upto it later instead of trying to act like you was always on their side. Which you only joined after the claim.

[Naomi-Tan]

Thats where I was going with that. but you didn't go there in your post as it was talking about two face so didn't really matter so I dropped it. But you seem to think there is something here that I Havn't noticed so I'd like to say where you think I was going with this given you know the context you was going for too.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

UNVOTE:


I like the wall

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

A case is an accusation sweet pea. I called it stupid.

[Naomi-Tan]

A case is an accusation sweet pea. I called it stupid.

Yes... but what was it? Cause.. I sorta dropped that the moment I realised the context.. but you picked it up as if I had gotten something. So.. what did I get? even if it was stupid there is something here that both me and Alisae didn't notice. So.. I'd like to know what it is we both didn't see?

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

Anyways, I'm like Naomi again.

I haven't heard or sorry if I missed it, but Asphodel's or Flubbs scumreads


P-Edit: You are literally working up a case on me making a joke calling something bullshit. In that post you didn't say you realized it was wrong, I just quoted that one post when I saw it.

[Naomi-Tan]

Anyways, I'm like Naomi again.

I haven't heard or sorry if I missed it, but Asphodel's or Flubbs scumreads


P-Edit: You are literally working up a case on me making a joke calling something bullshit. In that post you didn't say you realized it was wrong, I just quoted that one post when I saw it.

Yeah but in the first post your talking about TF's views and the second represented your views. I got on my own that your veiws =/= Two faces Views and posted it shortly after. However, you then posted that there is a case to be had but its a bit of a stretch. Which means there is something here I have over looked I wanna know what that is. As from my perspective there is no case here at all but you say there is kinda one.

[Naomi-Tan]

P-Edit: You are literally working up a case on me making a joke calling something bullshit. In that post you didn't say you realized it was wrong, I just quoted that one post when I saw it.

Ops sorry its 2:30AM ish here so I'm a little sleepy and not paying attention. I thought you red slipped as you was pushing as if I was trying to do a case on two posts a 1k apart when really there was no case to be had. But if you was joking then I'm just being dumb and slow.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

I know those late night case feelings lol

Ali gave me shit for it last night

[XnadrojX]

mhm

Asphodel has been prodded

(expired on 2016-12-31 22:33:04)
^respond by then