"Happy holidays" is bullshit Christian normativity.

[Kublai Khan]

and the attempted normalization of one religious ideology

You are a sheltered little boy.

[Kublai Khan]

Wait.. people agree with Shea? WTF?

Here's the thing about normativity... It's a time-saver based on statistics and probability. If I am introduced to a random American in the month of December, I'm going to make the assumption that they are probably believe in the Abrahamic diety (to whatever degree) and just wish them "Happy Holidays" to cover the bases. If I have time to get to know someone, then I can individually tailor my pleasantries.

So I meet a random unknown who happens to be Shea and wish him a Happy Holiday and he tells me to "Fuck off!".. And that's okay with people here? The fact that I have no ill-intention means nothing (according to the amazingly shitty article Shea linked to) and I'm deserving of venom for not having deep intimate knowledge of the circumstances of every stranger I meet? Fuck that noise. I have no sympathy for Shea anymore.

I'm sorry that Shea is choosing to wage an unwinnable "War on Assumptions". People are going to assume that your are Christian because you live in a predominantly Christian country. It must be terrible being oppressed by uh.. life, I guess. Welcome to the club. I'd recommend that you wear something that identifies you as an atheist but you'll probably call me a nazi. So nobody wins there. But I get the feeling that Shea doesn't want to "win" anything. He's going to be unhappy no matter what and by attacking people who don't know him for the crime of not knowing him is just a way for him to isolate himself into the world of echo chambers and depression.

I'm going to go ahead and say that Shea's gripes are illegitimate and he's choosing to be offended by non-offensive things.

oh.

[Kublai Khan]

Saying "Happy Holidays" doesn't normalize Christianity as a dominant social group. Christianity *is* the dominant social group. There are literally Christians churches on almost every corner in almost every town. It's been that way for centuries, millenniums even if you want to count the entire world. I don't know why Shea is under the impression that it's some sort of recent thing.

Acknowledging the reality that there are more Christians in the US than any other religious group isn't a harmful/damaging thing. Being an asshole and consequently reinforcing the negative stereotype that atheists are assholes is what's ACTUALLY damaging/harmful.

[Kublai Khan]

The point is that saying 'happy holidays' enforces the view/perception that Christianity is a superior religion to others.

Pfff... No it doesn't.

nobody chooses to be offended

Wow, that's wrong. People choose to be offended or not offended all the time. Hell, there are people who choose to be offended by things as a well-paying career (lawyers, politicians, lobbyists, etc).

so for the love of god, stop fucking saying shea (or anyone else) is deciding that they are offended by this. You get offended when you feel that something is offensive. Different things are offensive to different people at different levels of offensiveness. Don't tell someone that they shouldn't be offended by something, because that's tantamount to saying "your feelings are not as important as mine."

That's also mucho bullshit. That's like a shitty news station presenting "both sides of the story" and having a Holocaust denier debate with a member of the Anti-Defamation League. Opposites sides aren't equal. Not all "feelings" are equal.

Shea is rationalizing the act of being an asshole to people who are just trying to be nice to him. Don't encourage him.

[Kublai Khan]

Kublai Khan, your arguments are beyond terrible. Just because some group has the majority does not excuse everything they do. What if you replaced Christian/Atheist in your argument with white/black or straight/gay or any other axis that oppression occurs on.

Yes, because wishing happiness to someone is totally on par with other forms of oppression in the world.

Sure, people may be intending to be nice, but when that intention completely ignores your reality and erases your existence it is still an act of oppression. For once, Shea is not an asshole, and is entirely justified in being pissed off here.

Holy crap, listen to yourself. "Erases your existence"? He's still there! He's apparently angry because they assume he's celebrating when he's not. That's not oppression. Describing it as oppression is a

major disservice

to actual oppression.

Have some persepective.

[Kublai Khan]

Sure, people may be intending to be nice, but when that intention completely ignores your reality and erases your existence it is still an act of oppression. For once, Shea is not an asshole, and is entirely justified in being pissed off here.

Holy crap, listen to yourself. "Erases your existence"? He's still there! He's apparently angry because they assume he's celebrating when he's not. That's not oppression. Describing it as oppression is a

major disservice

to actual oppression.

Have some perspective.

It is still oppression when the normative standards are such that one group forces their cultural norms upon another. Just because it's mouse-sized doesn't mean it's not oppression, and it certainly doesn't mean it's okay to do.

No, absolutely not. You can't call it oppression otherwise the word "oppression" loses all meaning. It's not "mouse-sized", it's subatomic sized in comparison to actual oppression. You must understand that a large part of my issue with Shea's post is the insulting amount of exaggeration involved.

"forcing cultural norms"... I can't believe that people are using those sorts of terms in a serious manner. What does it even mean? A cultural norm isn't something that oppresses. It just is. There is always going to be a norm and groups outside the norm. If you choose to identify with groups outside the norm you can't turn around and insist that the norm changes to accommodate you. And saying "happy holidays" is "forcing"? Holy fuck. How do you propose that a group stop "forcing" a cultural norm? Stop saying "happy holidays"? Why not take it a step further and stop people from opening celebrating Christmas? Surely seeing people celebrating Christmas will force a cultural norm on those non-normal atheists out there and that certainly means it's not okay to do. Let's cancel Easter too. And what about the year round stuff? Should start tearing down churches and ripping crucifixes off people's necks? Ban any mention of the word God? Ugh, so much constant "oppression" to stop. How will you ever be happy?

I used to think that the strawman of "atheists attacking Christmas" was a myth perpetuated by right-wing blowhards to help Christians feel like victims. But apparently there are people like Uite and Shea that exist to push ridiculous arguments and justify their tirades. Stop dreaming of a hyper-idealized world where nobody is ever offended by anything ever. It's not going to happen. There are always going to be people in society that are going to bother you and piss you off. How about you just fucking tolerate them? There's a revolutionary idea. If you want Christians to tolerate atheists, then you have to tolerate them right back. That means let them celebrate their holidays and don't throw a fit because they accidentally included you in their generic season's greeting.

Also, read some history and learn what oppression actually is before you feel the need to insist that the word applies to you.

[Kublai Khan]

Of course Muslims aren't oppressed in Muslim-majority countries.

Because all Muslims are the same. There is only one brand of Islamic belief and every Muslim subscribes to it. Nothing but non-oppression going on in Muslim-majority countries according to Uite.

Pfff... No it doesn't.

any article that uses lou dobbs as evidence to support its point is pretty shitty.

The article isn't meant to refute Shea's points. It's meant to educate you. But you failed to read it properly.

You stated that "The point is that saying 'happy holidays' enforces the view/perception that Christianity is a superior religion to others.". The reality is that a very vocal sector of Christians believe that the greeting of "Happy Holidays" is a phrase which attacks and diminishes Christianity by making it less of a focal point for celebrations. This is evidenced by figures like Lou Dobbs (that's why the article referrenced him), Bill O'Reilly, Ann Coulter, Glenn Beck, <insert generic Fox News pundit here> saying as much when they talk about the perceived "War on Christmas". They argue that by not actually saying the word "Christmas" in a Christmas greeting is an attempt at censorship. They are firmly against the use of Happy Holidays as a greeting and want to throw Merry Christmas around more so that they can constantly promote Christianity.

This is why Shea's tirade is so hilariously bad. "Happy Holidays" is a watered down term that truly pisses off the people who actually do want to force Christianity on people. Reck tried to point that out, but everyone ignored him.

the argument here is approaching the realm of "you can't wish others happy holidays because it is so tied to christmas and others may feel offended" which is ridiculous. I may feel offended by people saying "hello" or "hi" to me, which would be quite silly. It's simply impossible for humans to be omnipotent and you can't expect everyone else to know everything about you, that's just plain selfish.

THIS~! ^^

[Kublai Khan]

Great. those people are the scum of society whose opinions are as relevant as the quoted paragraph.

Sorry for trying to engage you in discussion with squirrels around.

[Kublai Khan]

If I were to write the OP, it would say: Please don't think that by saying 'Happy Holidays' you're necessarily being super inclusive of Jews, and presumably of other religious and/or cultural minorities. I for one don't identify with this 'Holiday Season' and in my mind Ḥanukah is not a part of it at all. I think it feeds into the notion that Ḥanukah is Jewish Christmas, which I think is wrong and which I really dislike. I feel like the 'Holiday Season' for which people think it's appropriate to say 'Happy Holidays' is a construct of a Christian culture even though many people celebrate Christmas secularly. I don't think individuals mean anything but pleasantries when they say 'Happy Holidays', and I don't think anyone's bad or mean because they do it, but it still reminds me that the culture I live in will ignore my feelings about my own holidays and culture, and expect me to be pleasant about or even pleased with the way it treats them, above and beyond inundating me with Christmas stuff.

See, this is different from the thesis that Happy Holidays is bullshit Christian normativity.

It's still there. It's in the final sentence, just much better written.

[Kublai Khan]

and expect me to be pleasant about or even pleased with the way it treats them,

Why the jealousy? Are you not happy that others are? You can't even justify that they are being happy at your expense.

If people mistreat and/or mischaracterize my culture and/or religion because it fits more easily into their worldview or makes them feel better about themselves, I ought to be happy? I see your later post, but still, this boggled my mind when I read it.

As an atheist they are straight out ignoring my culture. I'm happy because it's typically said in an earnest spirit of well-intention. If you interpret it as a mistreatment then it's on you.

[Kublai Khan]

Here's the thing about normativity... It's a time-saver based on statistics and probability.

This is the same argument that is used in favor of stereotypes... I find it mildly disturbing that you are using it seriously.

Proof?

So I meet a random unknown who happens to be Shea and wish him a Happy Holiday and he tells me to "Fuck off!".. And that's okay with people here?

I don't think responding to an attempted nicety with cussing and venom is something anybody here has advocated. I would not be okay with that. Are you trying to strawman here?

They aren't condemning it either.

[Kublai Khan]

HAPPY HOLIDAYS EVERYONE

[Kublai Khan]

Khan, I would certainly not condone "responding to an attempted nicety with cussing and venom". Sorry if that wasn't clear.

No, that was quite clear. You are a good person.

Happy Winter Solstice to you! May your days get longer or shorter depending on your home hemisphere!

Cheer up, DGB. I know it seemed like the darkness was taking over, but that's going to change now. sunlight is going to start pushing back! This is the turning point! Rejoice!

As a note, I do not condone responding to someone saying "happy holidays" with 'cussing and venom.' I don't condone that in general, since 99 times out of 100 people aren't being dicks on purpose. *shrug*

http://everydayfeminism.com/2013/07/int ... ly-matter/

[Kublai Khan]

There is more than Christimas this time of year. "Holidays" is simply an acknowledgment that an array of faith traditions and cultures celebrate something in winter.

Name three non-Abrahamic celebrations. Kwanza, Festivus and the Solstice don't count.

Yule, Saturnalia, & Soyal

[Kublai Khan]

2. KK
Yule: "a religious festival observed by the historical Germanic peoples"
Saturnalia: " an ancient Roman festival in honor of the deity, Saturn"
Soyal: " the winter solstice ceremony of the Zuni and the Hopi"

One of three may still be celebrated. 0/3 in the United American States of America.
I think that basically demonstrates the point. Yes, there have been other rituals, but if you have to google or wiki to find them there is no real way you can defend that you mean

those

holidays.

I know for a fact that 2 of those are seriously celebrated by groups of at least 5 Americans. And the Hopi one I'm pretty sure is also followed by Native Americans.

It's tangential though... There is an array of celebrations that occur at the point of the winter solstice (considering it's astrological implications). Whether or not they are Abrahamic or Pagan, steeped in tradition or brand new, or even non-religious... it doesn't matter. The point is the random person you're encountering may or may not be Christian. In case he's not, you wish "Happy Holidays" and hope he gets something from it and move on with your life.

[Kublai Khan]

Reminded me of how huge dicks posters on this site can be, especially KK and psyche. So that was sweet.

This was me staying out of your affairs until you chose to call me a dick out of nowhere for no reason.

[Kublai Khan]

They're not two separate holidays. They're the same holiday, and irreligious people from Christian cultures also celebrate it. Referring to "secular Christmas" is otherizing Jews and others who don't give a shit about it as much as anything else.

Yeah, but the Superbowl otherizes those that don't care about football. Do you get super-pissed at people who try to make small talk with you and ask about your plans for it?

[Kublai Khan]

There isn't an issue of systemic oppression in the US based on Football Fandom.

Yeah, it's a thread about people being wished "Happy Holidays".

[Kublai Khan]

There isn't an issue of systemic oppression in the US based on Football Fandom.

Yeah, it's a thread about people being wished "Happy Holidays".

Which helps sustain a system of religious oppression.

I'm sorry the happiness of others offends you?

[Kublai Khan]

Happy New Years is fine

On the Julian calendar, celebrating the Feast of the Circumcision of Christ?

Wow, it's almost like you appropriated a former religious holy day and celebrate it for secular reasons. Crazy.

[Kublai Khan]

There isn't an issue of systemic oppression in the US based on Football Fandom.

Yeah, it's a thread about people being wished "Happy Holidays".

Which helps sustain a system of religious oppression.

I'm sorry the happiness of others offends you?

No, but systemic religious oppression, especially as it connects to homophobia and a lesser degree race, does.

And it in fact quite directly adversely affects my life on a day-to-day basis.

Sure. I have fought and will continue to fight the cross in many real and tangible ways. But not the ineffectual way you're doing it.

You've got this "No Compromise No Surrender" attitude which is causing you to portrait Christmas as equally evil as the Inquisition. If you want to promote cultural change then you have to be okay with the better parts of Christianity while denouncing the negative aspects .

I will never be Christian and severely dislike any organized religion, but I celebrate a secular Xmas because I enjoy having happiness in my life for myself and my family. Also, wife is pagan.

[Kublai Khan]

causing you to portrait Christmas as equally evil as the Inquisition.

Nowhere have I expressed magnitude.

Saying something is a problem is different from saying it's a huge problem, or ranking it on a scale of problems.

Fair enough. You didn't and I apologize for exaggerating your argument.

[Kublai Khan]

Relevant?

I feel like I've read that exact article a few years ago. Weird.

[Kublai Khan]

People don't hate you TSO. (or at least I don't). I'm sad that you hold the views that you hold though. In expressing them I assume you were hoping to convince other people, is it asking too much for us to hope the same for you?

[Kublai Khan]

I dunno, the fact that TSO's being outright racist towards me is pretty deplorable.

Does that make him your enemy?

Serious question.

[Kublai Khan]

Although not having to deal with how to emotionally deal with people who hold bigoted views of you is an aspect of privilege that makes it easy to tell people like me and Psyche that we're "dealing with it wrong," if that's the implication you're going for.

Careful now. Making assumptions about people based on their skin color is the thing you hate that others do.

[Kublai Khan]

As a middle class white atheist cismale, I'm perfectly placed to tell people of other groups how to handle discrimination, and I think you should all calm down. If you keep your head down and make no fuss, eventually, you'll get equality!

That's always worked in the past, except for every incidence ever!

sigh

[Kublai Khan]

but generally, I think that TSQ is quite right. it can all be summed up to, how comes you don't greet us with happy holidays during september-October, where we usually have at least 4(!!) holidays?

Because it's more than just a "let's make Jews happy" thing?

[Kublai Khan]

Regardless, this entire conversation seems silly.


Appreciate the good will of others, recognize that you are in a sort of cultural minority, educate others charitably when they err factually about something.

The only way not to express culture is not to say or do anything at all.

That there are things that the minority can do doesn't mean that the majority isn't doing anything wrong. The burden goes both ways.

Have the serenity to accept the things you cannot change,
The courage to change the things you can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

[Kublai Khan]

And of course the group in power is the arbiter of what can and cannot be changed

If you keep thinking that, you'll never have the courage to change anything.

[Kublai Khan]

Spoiler: pretty horrible word for blacks inside

Things just got more complicated. Us cis-races have to start respecting the trans-races.

[Kublai Khan]

There's a pretty far jump from celebrating something and systemically forcing everyone around you to celebrate the same thing as you.

Uh, that wasn't Shea's point at all.

[Kublai Khan]

When you say happy holidays, what you are actually saying is "I think everyone should be celebrating Christmas right now, and I will make you celebrate it with me with a thinly veiled code word for Christmas."

Reading comprehension is hard, let's go shopping.

I mean, you could read all the other words around it where he complains that the Jewish celebration of Hannukah is elevated to Christmas-level and he finds that very condescending.

But you're right, your out of context line does support your position.

Although I guess if you're the type of person who wants to be outraged whenever minorities are outraged about anything short of genocide, I can see how you would miss that.

Okay, that's a cheaper shot than usual. What's on your mind?

[Kublai Khan]

2) Because intentionally misreading the point of... this entire argument is incredibly exhausting and makes me not want to deal with you in any capacity. You (and others) are intentionally being antagonistic dicks about this (and across multiple threads), because apparently me/Shea/Psyche/anyone is not allowed to be outraged unless it's so bad that the majority pre-approves our outrage. Meanwhile, the fact that someone got offended and shut down a relatively inane activity gets completely vilified by absolutely everyone.

Does it not bother you that the shutdown of the popularity polls elicits more universal outrage on this site than the massacre/arguable genocide of African Americans in the US, or the systemic oppression of non-Protestants in the US? Because that's really, really fucked up.

But I guess your (and by "your," I broadly mean people on this site) fun is worth more than my colored(ish) body.

Because you're offering nothing but feelings of anger and hurt with no concrete suggestion on how to go about changing anything. Why are you confused by the fact that nobody wants to buy what you're selling?

I mean, if you followed up your outrage with a plea for us to do something/anything constructive, then we'd gladly get behind you and you could be a leader of change. Instead you just want to mope about how awful whitey is and if anyone contradicts or even questions you, you brand them as racists.

Personally, I'm old and my outrage is limited by fatigue. I'm not interested in entertaining overwhelming feelings of impotent anger. I want to actually work towards accomplishing something. I just passed all my teacher tests so I'm going to be a middle school science teacher in likely a predominantly minority and economically disadvantaged school. I'm going to fight the "systemic oppression of non-Protestants" by fighting to keep creationism out of textbooks instead of raging at a colloquial greeting. I'm going to try to keep the "massacre/arguable genocide of African Americans in the US" to a minimum by trying my fucking hardest to get them to care about science and education in general. I would have loved your input on accomplishing either of these tasks.

But no, you don't want to have any actual dialogue that may solve problems. You just want to hear your outrage echoed back and apparently justified. If we all get as angry and frustrated as you will that make you feel better and make the problem go away? If so, grr

Fuck the cops! Fuck whitey!

Did that help? Even if it didn't, your outrage will continue and I don't know why you think that I (or anyone else) even have the ability to contain it with "approval".

The next step after identifying a problem is to brainstorm potential solutions. Do you want to take the next step or not?

[Kublai Khan]

Yes, I want to take that step.

But taking that step requires not having to justify the existence of a problem in the first place (which is what you and others force people like me/Shea to do in the first place).

The simplest and most basic solution is increasing the number of vacation days and not having any default holidays be religious ones.

Are you talking about ideas like "students can take X number of days off per year and therefore can use them for whatever holiday"? Because there are problems with that plan.

[Kublai Khan]

But taking that step requires not having to justify the existence of a problem in the first place (which is what you and others force people like me/Shea to do in the first place).

Just gonna quote this again to make sure I'm crystal clear about how much of a dick move you just pulled.

You don't make someone have to justify a problem over and over and then say, "Well, why aren't you offering solutions." You don't get to take the moral high ground there.

Not trying to pull any dick moves. I thought there was near universal agreement that there was a problem and we seemed to only be squabbling over the degree of the problem. Forward momentum had stopped and something needed to be done.

[Kublai Khan]

Yes, I want to take that step.

But taking that step requires not having to justify the existence of a problem in the first place (which is what you and others force people like me/Shea to do in the first place).

The simplest and most basic solution is increasing the number of vacation days and not having any default holidays be religious ones.

Are you talking about ideas like "students can take X number of days off per year and therefore can use them for whatever holiday"? Because there are problems with that plan.

Doesn't work as neatly with academic calendars.

I'd argue that a swap to the international system there the school year starts in January and ends in like December with more frequent, short breaks would make a lot of sense, but there would be a lot of resistance to that for other reasons (i.e., killing the internship)

Which school level are you talking about? College?

And I'm not familiar with the international system. But the collegian level of education is much more open to change than the lower levels of education.

[Kublai Khan]

There's a pretty far jump from celebrating something and systemically forcing everyone around you to celebrate the same thing as you.

I know right? Because "Happy Holidays", which can and has been said at any time of the year and is supposed to be inclusive, is forcing you to celebrate "something".

Hey Kublai, here's my response to 779

Well... Look, when I wrote 779, it was more aimed at the racial problems in America. I mean, there are literally are people dying over the issue and possibly more to come in the future. The safety and future of an entire race of people is a more pressing issue than pointing out how one of the few attempts by the hegemonous Christian religion to be acknowledging and tolerating of other religions at the time of their biggest religious celebration is invalid because it also includes themselves.

Freedom of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are important.

Freedom from otherization isn't a thing.

[Kublai Khan]

In some places (where I grew up and my parents still live) not celebrating = bad shit. So you have to celebrate to avoid bad shit.

Seriously? Where is this? I will go there next year and sit in the middle of town square and not celebrate because I want to see exactly what "bad shit" will happen.

[Kublai Khan]

wait, are you saying that not spending time with my family is a choice? I mean, wouldn't it be better if it would be more acceptable for people to be with their families and have Christmas as optional?

So.. Thanksgiving?

[Kublai Khan]

wait, are you saying that not spending time with my family is a choice? I mean, wouldn't it be better if it would be more acceptable for people to be with their families and have Christmas as optional?

So.. Thanksgiving?

Thanksgiving is another really problematic holiday, but for other reasons. Like, y'know, genocide.

Ugh. It's like you're trying to oppress us into becoming Jehovah Witnesses.

[Kublai Khan]

In some places (where I grew up and my parents still live) not celebrating = bad shit. So you have to celebrate to avoid bad shit.

Seriously? Where is this? I will go there next year and sit in the middle of town square and not celebrate because I want to see exactly what "bad shit" will happen.

Pick any place in the South other than, like, Atlanta or Austin. Like, literally any place.

So, Macon, GA qualifies? I didn't celebrate Xmas there in '96. Nobody cared.

What "bad shit" specifically? And how do they even find out you're not celebrating?

[Kublai Khan]

I'm serious about this. If there is serious oppression, then let's get the ACLU on this.

If it's the "I'm feeling pressured to do something I don't wanna" type of oppression, then I sympathize, but I ain't gonna mobilize.

[Kublai Khan]

Ugh. I hate pudding.

[Kublai Khan]

East Texas is part of the South. I don't know where it ends, it probably just tapers off.

Florida is definitely south of the south though.

[Kublai Khan]

parents moved to SC
first time being here for Xmas

place is definitely...different

How's the shit?

Good? Bad?

[Kublai Khan]

i much prefer

bojangles

Church's to kfc.

For the fact, yes.

[Kublai Khan]

When you make fun of someone's whiteness, it's like making fun of someone for being well-off or for having a particularly good day. It just doesn't have the bite that making fun of someone for being poor or disabled or black.

Context really matters, and it surprises me that you don't see that.

Hey Psyche, don't you think positive racial stereotypes are also bad?

[Kublai Khan]

When you make fun of someone's whiteness, it's like making fun of someone for being well-off or for having a particularly good day. It just doesn't have the bite that making fun of someone for being poor or disabled or black.

Context really matters, and it surprises me that you don't see that.

Hey Psyche, don't you think positive racial stereotypes are also bad?

Yeah. But not as bad.

And this isn't quite an expression of a positive racial stereotype as much a claim about how great it is to be white, but there's no reason for me yet to think you don't know what I mean.

I don't think I'm quite sure what you mean..

I mean, isn't saying "white skin = well-off" is the same as saying "black skin = great athletes" or "asian = good at math"? There are consequences to that sort of thought process.

[Kublai Khan]

That would be germane if stereotypes about white people were a thing that mattered.

Damn. Sorry you have to live amongst us, dude.

[Kublai Khan]

But I have a persecution complex!

I don't think anyone was arguing that racism doesn't still exist?

I think the last debate ended on the point that promoting white stereotypes doesn't solve anything.

[Kublai Khan]

People were arguing that to believe that racism is ubiquitous evinces some sort of persecution complex.

No doubt racism is ubiquitous as a systemic institutional problem, but I think it's the sort of personal over-ubiquitousness that can be obnoxious. Something like this (obviously replace homophobic with racist).

[Kublai Khan]

The bipartite way I think society sets minorities up to do things that can be called "obnoxious" and then disproportionately condemns them for that mistake, along with the obvious ubiquity and harmfulness of racism (compared to, say, prejudice against white people), may be why I might be a bit less attentive to shows of "personal over-ubiquitousness" than to that other sorts of obnoxiousness that rear their heads whenever race comes up.

Sure, I can understand that. You're well within yoru rights and it's totally understandable.

Just remember that there's a step after the collegial enlightened awakening stage. Let me know when you discover politics and the art of making compromises to achieve partial victories.

[Kublai Khan]

Atheism is a categorization of religious belief.

Can the matter drop now?

[Kublai Khan]

Necro

If anyone is confused as to what "baiting" is, it would be stuff like necroing this thread.

If any nasty arguments result, I hope Not_Mafia is shares the maximum ban given out.

[Kublai Khan]

Yeah I mean we don't want this to turn into the face day thread, right?

Don't be a dick, Davsto.

[Kublai Khan]

What a disrespectful thread. I'm religious myself and I find this thing a piece of garbage.

Please aim your ire and annoyance at Not_Mafia and the other horrible people who think it's funny to bump this.

[Kublai Khan]

What a useless censor bar.

You're right. It's quite

SIIIT

.

[Kublai Khan]

What a useless censor bar.

You're right. It's quite

SIIIT

.

no it's a H because the first two lines are closer together than the third.

Well,

SIHT

.

[Kublai Khan]

Damn and we almost survived this year without arguments happening.

Blame people who necro threads like this.

[Kublai Khan]

KK I am trying to have an inane argument with you that is not actually related to the topic. plz respond

S1HT

, sorry.

[Kublai Khan]

I can barely see the top line of the middle section of the letter in question

VINDICATION!

Pfft. You didn't even notice the number.

COUNTER-VINDICATION!

[Kublai Khan]

New year's day still has cold, unless you change when that is too.

In the Northern hemisphere, sure.

New Years Day has always been arbitrary. It would make more sense to have it on the solstice.

[Kublai Khan]

counterpoint: tso says otherwise

The secret to solving problems is to deny that they exist.

[Kublai Khan]

Atheists also believe that if they are alone they can do things which are wrong, and never have any consequence. If they don't get caught, they're in the clear.

Fun fact: in addition to not being able to feel guilt or remorse, atheists are also cold-blooded and can unhinge their jaws to eat their prey.

Note this does not apply to all atheists and all religious people, as people are not as simple as black & white.

Okay, okay. I acknowledge that you pulled back from the generalization brink. But, damn.

If you are an atheist and are finding it difficult to get a promotion because of it, try not advertising the fact you are an atheist, and instead selling it as having an internal locus of control.

If you are religious and are having trouble because of atheist management promoting other atheists first, simply outsmart them and make them assume you are also atheist. Of course, be smart enough to do this without ever denouncing your own religion.

Final note, if you are not being promoted because you're atheist, you might as well blow the whistle. Whoever is the religious person who is discriminating against you is a fake, and you should go ahead and get whistle-blower status and report him. If, then, you are unable to prove it, and they decide to still not promote you, then look into finding a better company to work for.

I remember once when I applied to Publix, one of the interview questions was something along the lines of "In times of trouble, what gives you the strength to carry on?" and I was completely taken aback at what a "are you Christian" question it was (without directly asking it). I mean, I knew that Publix is a fairly Christian company, since they usually have religious books to peruse while waiting at the deli, but I was shocked at the aggressive discrimination. Realistically I could have lied and not suffered any consequences (plus probably gotten the job), but I didn't. I did a variation on the "internal locus of control" but it didn't work. They didn't hear the G-word and they weren't interested (the entire demeanor of the interviewer changed).

Mind you, I've worked plenty of jobs where I've known my employers' religion and they didn't care about mine. I figure it's one of those things that the free market would taken care of. By employing that strategy, Publix might get true believers on staff, but they'll also miss out on qualified applicants and/or welcome in a lot of superficial liars.

There seemed little point to whistleblowing. It's an expensive thing to bring lawsuits forward and I definitely couldn't prove for sure that it was the religious question (which was well worded to avoid mentioning Christianity or God) that killed my potential employment.

[Kublai Khan]

Atheists actively disbelieve in the existence of God.

I actively don't collect stamps.

[Kublai Khan]

I would like to use this thread to complain about the word "merry". It's archaic and only used with relation to Christmas. From modern usage, "Merry Christmas" effectively means "Christmassy Christmas". Switch to a better holiday greeting, switch to "Happy Christmas". Or "Happy Holidays". Both are good. But stop using "merry", it's an archaic word and should just be forgotten.

Also Happy Christmas Mafiascum.

Have a gay Christmas, Who.

[Kublai Khan]

Plenty of people I know don't celebrate Christmas and it's annoyingly patronizing to insist that they are the problem.

Who is insisting that non-celebrators of Christmas are a problem?

[Kublai Khan]

Oh. Then yes. They are annoyingly patronizing.

This year I explained to an old Canadian friend that doesn't follow the news that Christians feel oppressed in America. They were stunned.

[Kublai Khan]

Maybe. I know I usually get annoyed whenever a priest/minister/etc starts preaching about God during a wedding ceremony.

[Kublai Khan]

TBF, weddings

ARE

a religious thing.

I'm not Christian but I celebrate Christmas. Can't I just like presents?

Well, I guess my argument is that weddings were a religious thing. Much like Christmas.

Nowadays, from a legal standpoint, a church doesn't need to be involved at a wedding at all.

[Kublai Khan]

khan was saying that he gets annoyed whenever jesus is mentioned at a wedding. nero said that weddings are religious. he's clearly just saying that some people see it that way, and khan shouldn't be surprised or annoyed.

this whole conversation is odd.

Well, it's more that I know the people getting married well and I know they never set foot in churches. They have no personal relationship with any clergy and pretty much only hire them for the ceremony (usually a gesture for their parents or extended family). Then that priest usually takes a moment during someone else wedding to talk about how great God and Jesus are. To me it always comes off as a crass advertisement.

I might be alone on this so feel free to ignore my ranting.

[Kublai Khan]

bump

Okay.