Open 55 - Vanilla 2:10 (Abandoned) before 542

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/confirm

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Vote: Jester

Because he was scum in our last game.

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That last post by Jester completely changed my view of this game. I see no way that he could be scum.

Unvote
Vote: Elmo

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I propose we sincerely Lynch All Lurkers. There are no power-roles, hence, no reason for townies, or townbots, to stay low. Thoughts?

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I was kidding. I have nothing to give me a good indication of anyone's alignment right now.

I'm more interested in what people think about lynching lurkers.

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How about going one step further and posting

content

. You didn't do that in your last post.

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The point I'm making is that you could have. Instead you post telling us that hope more people will post, which really doesn't tell us anything useful.

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Lynch lurkers? Perhaps as a last resort. Just because there are no power roles does not mean that townies will be more interested in this game. In reality, a lynch all lurkers approach to this game seems to provide scum with an exact blue print for making it to the end game. In the end, we will be just be lynching lazy townies with only a a sliver of a chance that we hit an especially dim scum.

On a side note, if I was scum that had no intention of lurking... I might suggest that we lynch everybody that does also.

I don't know why anyone would bother signing up for an all vanilla game if they weren't interested in it. This is as plain as it gets.

Lynching all lurkers will make the game better for the town in the long run. It's meant to be an incentive for ALL players to actually

play the game

. The moment townies start lurking, it's more acceptable for scum to. Scum only really have to play as well as the worst pro-town player.

If we agree to lynch lurkers, we set a bench mark. At best, everyone posts regularly, we have lots of content to analyse and out scum. At worst, every pro-town player sucks, in which case this town deserves to lose anyway. I'm going to be an optimist about this and assume we've got something closer to the best case scenario.


Tyler, what did

you

expect

others

to write?
And when did I accuse you of hypocrisy? I pointed out your no-content post.

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Unvote
Vote: TylerJ

Posting without content.

Also, this game is not really taking off.

Mod: hello, can we have prods, please?

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All I've got from this game is that TylerJ seems most suspicious to me at the moment.

This almost makes we want to change my vote to DeathSauce.

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It'd be grand if you could tell us what makes him suspicious.

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Great! I'm in a game with ryan and JDodge again!

I'll check back in after 6 pages or so when they are done bickering.

Unvote
Vote: DeathSauce

What a lame excuse to lurk. Also coupled with his lame 'suspicion' of Tyler.

Obviously scum.

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Everybody stop bitching and lynch DeathSauce.

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Everybody stop bitching and lynch DeathSauce.

Reasoning?

Because he's probably scum.

Seriously, I have failed to find a strategy that works in picking up dead games.

Lynch the scummiest player - DeadSauce.

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*pokes ryan*

Did you read the thread? Specifically my posts related to DeathSauce? That's the best lead I have.

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Are you DeathSauce's scum-buddy, Jester?

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^^^you think his calling you out makes him deathsauce's buddy. Is this an thinly veiled OMGUS disguised as an innocent question? I think so.

Not at all. Jester has complete misrepresented my arguments against DeathSauce. He's strawmanned me.

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Not at all. Jester has complete misrepresented my arguments against DeathSauce. He's strawmanned me.

I have? Read your post 76, and tell me how it differs in structure to what I accuse you of in my 82.

Jester, that's not the only time I referred to DeathSauce, and if you'd read the thread you'd know that.

Do you still think your argument's not a strawman? Regardless, who do

you

think is the best lead, if not me?

Mod: Can you pleeeeeease prod/replace Flameaxe, Dracion, JDodge, Tobiassen, DeathSauce and Elmo?

w00t, they're half the game. =/

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DeathSauce's reappearance and OMGUS posts don't do a heap to make me feel like changing my vote.

If it wasn't COMPLETELY OBVIOUS that I was joking about the reasons for my suspicion of TylerJ, let me make it clear here and now: IT WAS A JOKE, SON! It was on page two, hardly the usual spot for concrete evidence.

That's easy to say after the deed. It doesn't ring true to me, given that he was under some pressure at the time.

But, assuming you're telling us the truth, now that we're passed the point of jokes, you want to provide us some content that's a bit more than "OMGUS"?

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You know what you said has about as much weight as saying, "I spun this wheel and it stopped on your name."

Show us a few posts and reasons you feel this way and I might start taking you a little more seriously.

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There is a difference, Elmo, between your vote for Jester and pwayne's vote for Tyler, in that he has provided us more content, at least a traditional kind. Personally, I think your vote is less noteworthy in terms of consistency, but that's not to say I'm finding your playstyle incredibly helpful.

To tell the truth, I'm still trying to work out whether or not this game's left the random stage. While I'm finding a lot of these posts entertaining, they're still pretty unhelpful.
*sigh*

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Tyler, that last post doesn't sound sincere to me. There have been enough things happening in this game for you to have commented on without having to pull something like that. And what you've just said is, more or less, that you're not going to try to generate any content. What are you thoughts on what's happened so far this game?

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pwayne, is there a reason for the complete unhelpfulness of your last few posts? Or maybe I'm reading them all wrong and they are actually helpful. Please let me know how, if this is the case.

I hate to say it, but this game's pretty shit right now. One liners that make no contribution to the game, people bitching and just generally being immature. Wtf?

This is an interesting exchange, particularly in light of your 122, destructor. I agree that you did the right thing, calling TylerJ out on this. It's interesting that it was you that did it after your 122, though.

I'm not really sure what you're refering to here. Yes, I said I was finding it hard to sort the serious from the non-serious, but I'm still trying to generate content, even in 122.

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Why Elmo? At least he's provided some opinions.

If we want to go with who's provided the bare minimum of anything we should lynch JDodge, Flameaxe, Tobaissen, Lowell or DeathSauce. Maybe in that order.

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He's at L-2 now.

Elmo, I'll put you at L-1 if you don't give us some thing more than yes/no. I honestly believe your yes/no posts were acceptable early in the game but not anymore.

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What we're seeing right now is exactly what I thought his posts were acceptable early in the game. We've just seen a wagon form on someone for, arguably, not more much than a playstyle. Yes, I absolutely agree that if he keeps that up he's being totally anti-town, but I don't see it as scummy.

peg apparently doesn't think Elmo's provided us opinions, but I remember reading one of his posts that, if taken literally, actually told us a bit about what his thoughts on the game so far were. It's not very helpful, yes, but more helpful than most of the one-liners we've seen lately.

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Tyler, who do you think the two scummiest players are at the moment?

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TylerJ: What are you doing that I'm not/wasn't, with respect to scumhunting?

QFT
[quote="TylerJ]First of all I am voting you. second, what I am not doing isn't the case. It's about you not me.[/quote]This is full of crap. Elmo's given us more content in his 8 posts than you have in your 25. And yes, it's absolutely about you as much as it is about Elmo or anyone other player. Here, you're blatantly diverting attention from yourself back onto Elmo, who happens to be the most popular target of the moment.

@Destructor- who are your top 2 scummy?

TylerJ and Deathsauce. Jester's third.

My vote was on DeathSauce but Tyler's last few posts have lured my vote.

Unvote
Vote: TylerJ

I'm not sure if Tyler and DeathSauce are just playing badly, but they're perceptibly scummy, at least.

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Oh, and with my suspicious, there are three players, JDodge, Tobaissen and Flameaxe, I obviously don't have a read on due to lurking/scarcity of posts who could easily be scum.

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Do you think that was more scummy or antitown? Given the fact that you have a read on him, doesn't that mean that he's actually contributed something to the game?

What do you think about his contribution as opposed to Tyler's or DeathSauces?

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First off, does activity or lack thereof determine alignment? No.

Ur rite. But it does give us an indication of it. It is in pro-town aligned players' interests to be active. Anything less is bad play. *points to post about lurkers from earlier on*

And anyway, way to strawman my vote. You've been very active, but that wasn't my point. You've hardly given us any content besides jumping on the Elmo wagon. It's an issue of

content

not

activity

.

... It seemed Elmo was trying to get attention off of himself...

No more than you were.

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This is an interesting exchange, particularly in light of your 122, destructor. I agree that you did the right thing, calling TylerJ out on this. It's interesting that it was you that did it after your 122, though.

I'm not really sure what you're refering to here.

It was interesting in light of your 122, because you said in your 122:

To tell the truth, I'm still trying to work out whether or not this game's left the random stage. While I'm finding a lot of these posts entertaining, they're still pretty unhelpful.

then followed up in your 130, two days later, with:

There have been enough things happening in this game for you to have commented on without having to pull something like that.

They don't quite say opposite things, but they sure aren't consistent with each other. And see above. And while you're at it, see below.

As a matter of fact, I think destructor's play has been fairly townish, but also a little bit... lazy. As I point out above, there's not much logical "flow-through" on his posts, linking one to the next. In my experience, sometimes that's scummy play, but I've seen destructor play scum up close, and that doesn't seem to be his style. That makes me think it's more likely lazy townie play, like he isn't taking notes and is operating off his feelings for people rather than evidence. It also leads to day-one single-targeting, which I also don't care for (and which I pointed out in my 120). So yeah, I voted for him to try to pressure him off that play-style. At least now, destructor is double-targeting.

It still feels like it's early in the game, so I'm more interested in getting people talking than discerning anything proound. But yes, you're right, I've been a bit lazy with this game, so far as deeply analysing anything goes. That's not to say I've been flippant in which of my suspicions and thoughts I've expressed.

Saying you're third on my scum-list is a bit misleading. You'd be second if Deathsauce is scum for your Post 82. You simplified my reasoning for voting him.

I'm sure you saw it. Here was my real reason for the vote:

Great! I'm in a game with ryan and JDodge again!

I'll check back in after 6 pages or so when they are done bickering.

Unvote
Vote: DeathSauce

What a lame excuse to lurk. Also coupled with his lame 'suspicion' of Tyler.

Obviously scum.

I admit I haven't provided much content. And sometimes that can be a scumtell, but although I have been able to add my two cents, I haven't the time and brainpower to make an excellent PbP analysis. I just got done writing an essay:P. If you think I am scummy for my lack of content, then by all means, kill me. Yet, I would argue that this could be correlated to lack of time, intellegence, or laziness.

I'm quite content to leave my vote on you after this. You're doing a lousy job of being town, whatever your role is. If you

are

town, pick it up, please.

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oops.
EBWOP:
About 122 and 130 - I don't see the conflict. I wasn't pulling a stunt in 122, I was posting content and analysis and encouraging more of it. I'm not reading into his vote much, but it doesn't really look to me like a sincere attempt to generate content.

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You know, if he doesn't start playing the game soon, I'd seriously be willing to do that.
Welcome to the game Skruffs. =)

Those last two posts form Tyler were heartening, but my vote's staying on him until he delivers.

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That deadline's a little hardcore.

Mod:

can you retract it or extend it or something? Like Jester said, Skruffs has only just joined and we don't have ryan's replacement yet.

And looking at the latest vote count, it seems like it'll be Elmo being lynched if votes don't change now, which I think would be a bad lynch for Day 1. Assuming Tyler posts some of that promised content, I'd be willing to lynch DeathSauce at deadline. If not him, then I'd advocate us voting another lurker off, such as JDodge or Lowell. Flameaxe has been about as good as a lurker, too.

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Tyler has disappointed me. But I'm more willing to see DeathSauce gone right now.

Unvote
Vote: DeathSauce

To all the lurkers: you suck, seriously.

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Arg, didn't see Jester's posts....

DON'T LEAVE. You're like the only other person I feel is playing the game even half-decently, not that you are 'half-decent' but that says something about most of the others... That is to say, I'm not sure what's going to stop me from asking for replacement if the only active players leave. =/

Oh, and the 'lurkers suck, seriously' thing applies even more now. grr

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EBWOP: "not that you are 'half-decent'" was meant to mean you're playing better than half-decent, like, proper decent. I thought I should clear that up quickly. I obviously can't express myself very well after 2am.

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I don't think Jester's asking to be replaced on a whim at all. In fact, I've considered asking for replacement myself more than a few times this game already due to how retarded it's been. Given that I think flaking sucks and would normally only do so if IRL commitments demanded it, that's saying something (because IRL commitments

aren't

demanding it).

Policy lynches are stupid. And one's on players who are being replaced and aren't even in the game anymore are even stupider. ryan wasn't decisively scummy this game but he was trolled, and so far as I could see, this is why he asked to be replaced. Fair enough, because, like Jester said, Mafia is meant to be fun.

DeathSauce on the other hand

has

been scummy, not provided content or shown signs of genuinely trying to even while posting. I say the lurkers suck because we can't begin building a case to lynch them with such a short deadline. So my vote went to DeathSauce since he already had one vote on him and was the only player in contention I felt deserved to be lynched right now.

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I can't let destructor off the hook though, even at the start of them game he has been eager to lynch. He seemed not to care who it was, just as long as they were lynched.

Well, forgive me for, y'know, playing the game.

DeathSauce, that's a real shame. If you are town, don't blame me for your own bad play. I said way early in the game that scum only have to try as hard as the worst pro-town player in this setup, so if your claim (which was useless) was real you can thank yourself for handing scum a mislynch.

I'm hoping people pick it up in Day 2 or I'll have little reservation about asking to be replaced since there's little point playing a game the players don't care about.

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I haven't replaced out of a game before, but this is the rockiest game I've ever played with what seems to be the most apathetic players I've ever seen. I'll be an optimist and assume Day 2 will go a lot better with the info the two deaths provide. =)

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LOL! =D

That's a strange kill, I think, since I actually thought Skruffs was a little scummy.

I'm going to reread but in the interim, I'll put my vote back on Tyler. You still need to show us that promised content.

Vote: TylerJ

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I thought Skruffs was scummy for making no apparent effort to scum-hunt or read the thread when he replaced. He bandwagoned at the end of the day, which is somewhat forgivable given the deadline, but he did so without seeming to worry about who the bandwagon was on and more importantly, why it was on them.

Also, I'm was planning to have reread and stuff sooner but I'm going to have limited access for the next 2-3 days, but I'll see what I can fit it.

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The reason I find destructor suspicious is that throughout the game he has been eager to point fingers and was anxious to lynch. To answer Elmos question.

Yes, I certainly appeared to be so. But why is this suspicious? Pointing fingers is fine, so long as there is reason behind it. I did it and it generated content. Everyone was so complacent in Day 1. I'm a honestly a little annoyed that I'm being criticised for trying to make something happen in an otherwise dead game.

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I didn't criticise it so much as saying that I didn't like it. I didn't think Elmo was scummy. Did you? Do you, now that he's posting multi-worded sentences?

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I didn't think Elmo was scummy. Did you? Do you, now that he's posting multi-worded sentences?

No and No.

So then hopefully you can understand that the difference between my actions and the Elmo wagon, so far as a generating content go, are that I was pursuing targets I thought were actually scummy.

Yet you seem to think that a certain amount a leniency is due to you for your actions and that you should be immune from suspicion because of the favor you were doing us all.

I don't think I implied either of those things. My irritation stems from the fact that something pro-town (trying to generate content) that was motivated by genuine suspicion is being viewed as scummy and that the only reason I was put into this situation at all was that few others were trying to do the same. You know, my whole rant from Day 1. =/

Reread isn't done, and probably won't be for a few days, but I'll have some "deeper" things to say when it is.

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/sigh....

How does me being a jackass make me anti-town again? I forgot...Last I checked a townie could be a dick just as much as a scumbag.

You sure as hell aren't being helpful and I have no hesitation about saying someone who makes no apparent attempts to scum-hunt are being anti-town.

I kind of wish I had a 1-shot double-dayvig ability right now. I'd use it on Flameaxe and JDodge. I really don't give a shit that this is their usual playstyle. It's anti-town and there's no reasonable excuse for it,

especially in a mountainous game

. If they're scum, good riddance. If they're town, similarly, good riddance. Since there are only two scum in this game, we can afford to lose a few useless townies. The way they're playing, there's no reason to even begin believing they're town anyway.

The alternative to this, if you're town and not willing to participate in any constructive way, is to get replaced. Despite what I said above about losing useless townies, I'd much prefer we lynched scummy players and had the useless ones replaced, for obvious reasons.

Poor participation is discouraging for other players, myself (obviously) included. Stop shitting on the game please.

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Don't worry, it wasn't personal attention I was giving them. It was completed related to this game. Since I think they're both probably intelligent guys, I think they're actually scummy now.

JDodge and Flameaxe are a likely scum-pair. There is little evidence to suggest otherwise but their anti-town play makes it a viable possibility. I don't see a way to get a better read on them, so I say we lynch them. Who disagrees or has a better idea?

Vote: Flameaxe

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I have a better idea. How about we play the game instead of voting based on bullshit metareasons! Yeah!

What are the bullshit meta reasons? I want to know if you or Flameaxe are scum but you're both being evasive. Why would townies need to be evasive? They wouldn't.

I will be seriously pissed if these guys skate through as scum just because we have all got used to not taking them seriously in anything that they do.

This is one of things I don't like about metagaming. Having a consistently anti-town or scummy playstyle shouldn't be an excuse to not get lynched for it.

Also, Lowell need some pressure. He hasn't really done much this game either.

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Yes, I'm advocating Flame's lynch based on his playstyle in this game. Like I said, I don't see the fact that he's consistent about it to be a reason not to lynch him. I probably wouldn't be so ruthless about this if we weren't playing an open mountainous game where if we're going to mislynch, it's best we do it on the weakest links, which is what will logically happen anyway, so long as the town plays well.

I don't believe there are universal scum-tells and understand why people metagame and how it's useful, but my stance on Flameaxe isn't about the metagame anyway. He's being evasive, unhelpful and so by proxy scummy or at the very least extremely anti-town. How is this

not

a reason to support his lynch?

His self-vote was ridiculous. If he's town, he was sabotaging the game and should have just gotten himself replaced. Otherwise, he's scum. But he's unvoted now and is apparently staying in. If he keeps his current behaviour in this game up, I'll keep my vote on him.

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destructor: you attacked me day 1 for wantign to bandwagon onto players that other players wanted to meta on, but now you want to do that on jdodge. At least, I'm pretty sure it was you who was suspicious of my rampant bandwagoning. Why the change?

There has been no change. I'm not metaing anyone. I assume you're talking about ryan. His contribution to the game had not been negative. He was perceptibly playing the game, asking questions, generating content. This perception has been notably absent from both JDodge's and Flameaxe's play. I'm throwing Lowell in there too.

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I don't really understand why there's a wagon on me, so I'm going to read back and see what I can find to defend myself against.

Why should we even be mislynching in the first place? It's like... you

know

Flameaxe isn't scum.

Don't get retarded. Read it again:

I probably wouldn't be so ruthless about this if we weren't playing an open mountainous game where

if

we're going to mislynch, it's best we do it on the weakest links, which is what will logically happen anyway, so long as the town plays well.

I'm not saying we should mislynch even in the slightest and I find it suspicious that you'd suggest so. Why should we sit by as player refuses to contribute and allow us to gain an informed idea of their alignment? The only responsible thing for the town to do is force them into activity, which hasn't really worked here.

What I can discern form this is that if Flameaxe is town, he's being an asshole who's trying to screw the game up for everyone else or he's scum, waiting for the heat to die away. Since we can't know what the deal really is until he contribues, I see no reasons to disband the wagon.

Mod:

Does Flameaxe still want to be replaced?

If you don't believe there are universal scumtells, but also don't believe that you can find tells by metagaming, then how the hell do you scumhunt? Pick random names out of a hat? Look into a crystal ball and the info becomes clear? I know from experience that this does not work in the least.

I think metagaming can be revealing, but I just don't want to rely on it much and don't have an unending faith in "tells" at all. It could be personal preference. I've said it a few times in other places that I try to be as fluid in my playstyle as possible. If, of example, I'm doing this well, then metaing me would be fruitless. Also, if universal scumtells don't exist and meatgaming is the only way to find scum, then newbies are apparently unreadable.

This is getting into MD terrain, but if I had to try and sum it up - I depend on context and the assumption that every pro-town player will not do anything that is intentionally detrimental to their win-condition when scum-hunting. I don't assume it's a great technique, but I like it, I'm honing it, and it seems to be working more than not.

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Lowell, your vote was on Flameaxe, not ryan... O_o

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oops

It's funny, because it's almost what it is.. as in, you're trying to get a read of a player based on "external" factors... like meat.. meatworld...

>.>

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I read the thread for any criticism of me that I hadn't already replied to...

2) Destructor might well be 1/2 of a scumpal group. His inexplicable "Elmo has provided content" and other defenses of Elmo reeks of scum trying to "go on record as defending a doomed townie at the gallows".

FOS- Destructor

Alternatively, I was calling out what was a bs wagon. Even

you

said you didn't and don't find Elmo scummy, so what's the real issue here?

guess what

VOTE: DESTRUCTOR

i'm in a voting mood right now

I never asked what tipped peg over the edge. Why are you voting me, peg?

I'd be willing to vote destructor, too.

Why?

Well I wouldn't expect you guys to believe me but I intentionally stirred crap up day one, to get the game started. WE have no knowledge day one, so any lynch is as good as any other. It was only after day 2 started that we have ANY information (there are no cops, remember), and that information is derived from what happened day one.

Any lynch is totally not as good as any other. Lynching someone's who's being terribly anti-town, obviously scummy or stupidly unhelpful is far better than lynching some random person a mindless wagon has formed on.

The only people who honestly have any reason NOT to lynch other people day one, are the two scum, and they want to avoid lynching each other.

No, I honestly have a reason not to lynch someone I don't believe is scum.

Hoenmstly, think about it:

If you are a townie, do you really carae who else gets lynched, day 1? Do you have any reason to defend anyone, regardless of how they are acting?

When viewing this person in the context of the other players around them in the game, absolutely yes. Do you seriously think it's pro-town to let a player be lynched when other are more suspicious?

Which is why the people defending dryan are more likely scum.

I know it sounds backwards. But it's da troof.

It's not da troof at all. I don't understand why you'd feel this way at all. You're suggesting that the Day 1 lynch is inevitably doomed to be a mislynch. I'd rather we tried to lynch scum at any point in the game.

Destructor seems a little shady right now; however, I don't really know what to make of the lack of communication on his part...

You never elaborated on this. Why did you feel I was shady? What lack of communication were you talking about?

I say that when you make a claim, its often a good thing to back it up.

I wonder if he was actually serious about this. The main point here was that you'd not provided any content to allow us to read you. So, I figured, you're either useless town or scum. I'm not willing to entertain the idea that you're useless town, because lurkers suck and deserve to be lynched anyway. If you really want, I could do a pbpa. lol

... I think destructor is a better lynch, though I admire and approve of the attempt to get certain players to play the game, destructor's push for an FA lynch is too opportunistic for my liking considering the scrutiny he/she was facing when the BAMWagon started rolling.

Vote:Destructor

The scrutiny he was under? At the time I started pressuring Flameaxe and JDodge the only player who was even remotely on their back was avinashv. Even

your

post right before I voted Flameaxe was shrugging the whole thing off. And a bandwagon? He had

one

vote on him. Opportunistic?? How?

And what happened to this, anyway? v

I will be seriously pissed if these guys skate through as scum just because we have all got used to not taking them seriously in anything that they do.

That's all of it. Most of my other responses to criticism haven't been commented on since, so I'm left wondering why people are voting for me.

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I'm not convinced. I'd rather you spelt it out. Your ambiguity makes it impossible for me to defend myself.

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His inexplicable "Elmo has provided content"...

He hadn't? I think he had. Certainly more than a few people at the time.

No, the scrutiny you were under. When the FA wagon started, PEG, Tyler, myself and skruffs all expressed suspicions of you.

I didn't take peg's seriously. I already replied to Tyler's. I replied to most of yours at the time. I didn't really understand Skruff's until I reread it. No way to prove it, but I wasn't feeling any pressure when I attacked Flameaxe and JDodge.

When avinashv started pushing FA, it seems that you took the opportunity to capitalize the attention on FA by escaping scrutiny. When the attention returned to you, it seems to me that you feigned surprise and now seem to be trying to downplay the level of scrutiny you were under when you started pushing FA.

There was only one person criticising Flameaxe at the time. I'm not sure what constitutes opportunism, though I can see where you're coming from. But read below...

My surprise was legitimate and wasn't about being scrutinised so much as it was about the fact that I actually had a wagon on me. I really didn't, and don't, feel there's a half-decent case on me so I'm surprised that I've gotten myself as many votes as I have. While I'm not entirely unhappy about it, since any content is better than none, I've got not fear in saying that there are definitely a bunch of players who could do with the attention more than I.

Nothing has changed with the statement you have quoted.

Yet... you are voting a player who is trying to pressure said lurkers into activity. You don't think there's something inconsistent about this?


avinashv, I asked you some questions in post 403. Can you please answer them?

[destructor]

Yes, you seemed a little shady, but it was early, and there were a few times where you seemed a little opportunistic (pretty much mirroring what pwayne says on this)

pwayne's "opportunism" point was about my attack on Flameaxe and JDodge, and that came after you posted the 'shady' comment, so how could you be mirroring what he said? Was there another time before that I seemed shady?

[destructor]

Late in the game lynches need to be accurate, but early in the game, any sort of wagon is acceptable. You might be all fussy and fos me for saying such a blasphemous thing, but let's be honest. The reactions everyone had to the wagon yesterday are MUCH more useful than the townie who got lynched. I wouldn't have said that a year ago when I was fresh and idealistic, but after a lot of experience I have learned that it is best to focus on interaction in the beginning of the game, and NOT accuracy.

I agree that in the 'random' stage any wagon is a good wagon, but the rest of this is bs. As the day progresses, why not focus on both interaction and accuracy? If we're going to relate this back to the Elmo or ryan wagons, I don't believe they were well 'aimed' given their context, which has been my point the whole time.

The 'usefulness' of the townie who got lynched and the information from the reactions to the wagon is a null point. They are one and the same, are they not? There will always be information to gather from a lynch and the wagon that lead to it, regardless of whether it was on town or scum. The real distinction is that lynching scum is better for the town both in numbers and information.

The only people who honestly have any reason NOT to lynch other people day one, are the two scum, and they want to avoid lynching each other.

No, I honestly have a reason not to lynch someone I don't believe is scum.

And only scum really know who is or isn't scum, and you are basing your opinion on what? Did you explain yesterday what about Ryan made him likely town? Not saying you didn't - merely curious.

I didn't say Ryan was town. The point I made, and that you're ignoring, is that I believed there were more suspicious people around. The ryan wagon, so far as I could tell, was based on some retarded out-of-game grudge and NOT on anything that had happened in this game. On the other hand, my votes on DeathSauce and TylerJ were based entirely on how they'd been playing.

Late in the game it is far better to get a player, any player, in a vanilla game lynched than allow it to go to night.

I'm not even sure why you've bought this up. Did I suggest otherwise?

Who were you pushing when Ryan was under attack?

I'd have to go back and check, but it would have been one of DeathSauce or TylerJ. Why do you ask, and why don't you check yourself?

Also, your opinion of 'scummy' is notably flawed. You made an explicit point of sayign that you were intending to go after me today, I think (someone did anyways) though I was confirmed town; this is another reason I am interested in seeing you lynched; you are basing you 'pro town' and 'scum' tells on very shallow reasons.

I didn't say I was planing to go after you. I did say I thought you were a 'little scummy', which was meant to say that I thought you were somewhat suspicious.

Please point out any and all point in this game where I've based pro-town and scum tells on shallow reasons and then why,

in the context of this game

, it's vote-worthy.

Which is why the people defending dryan are more likely scum.

I know it sounds backwards. But it's da troof.

It's not da troof at all. I don't understand why you'd feel this way at all. You're suggesting that the Day 1 lynch is inevitably doomed to be a mislynch. I'd rather we tried to lynch scum at any point in the game.

Absolutely not. Why would you infer that I am saying that? I am inferring that the scum are more likely to try and build brownie points with the town by lightly defending pro-town players and fossing those that are attempting to scum hunt.

Ok, so maybe saying 'inevitable' is a bit of an exaggeration, but you

do

seem to be content with a Day 1 mislynch while suggesting that scum-hunting in Day 1 isn't so important.

Absolutely scum need to be lynched, day one if possible, but unless someone makes a spectacular tell or a specialized one that someone can snag onto and use against them, it's *unlikely to happen* simply based on all of us having NO information to go after.

... But we did. You are apparently disregarding the legitimacy of the information we garner from peoples' behaviour

during

Day 1, short of obvious tells. What can I say? I completely disagree with you on this and am not found of the notion that this comes down to me being "fresh and idealistic". I was trying to scum-hunt and treat Day 1 seriously. Some others weren't, such as DeathSauce, and he got lynched for it. I imagine Day 1 would have been more fruitful if there were more people taking it seriously too.

And again, you just kind of 'cleared' ryan, when you have no reason to do that; that makes you more likely to be scum.

Wtf. When did I clear ryan? You seem to be making a few assertions about me that are just false. Am I to believe that they're results of you not reading thoroughly or you wanting to build a case on me, regardless of how legitimate it actually is?

[destructor]

Hi pwayne.

Nothing has changed with the statement you have quoted.

Yet... you are voting a player who is trying to pressure said lurkers into activity. You don't think there's something inconsistent about this?

Since you still have your vote on me, any other comments on the rest of my response would be good too.

[destructor]

...I see nothing inconsistent there. I am not ignoring it. I only have one vote. I don't think that lurking is an accurate scumtell just as I don't think that pressuring lurkers to respond is a scumtell. Do you think that I am voting for you because you are trying to pressure lurkers?

No, I don't believe you're voting me for pressuring lurkers. That's not what I meant. I think it's inconsistent that you would express concern about two players lurking and staying under the radar but then put your vote on a player who is trying to get them to participate. You're sending out a mixed message - you don't like lurkers, but you find a player trying to do something about them more worrying.

I didn't realise you could ask a mod to replace players. If you can,

Mod:

I enthusiastically second pwayne's request.

[destructor]

Actually, you know what I just realised? You pretty much were voting me for pressuring lurkers, only you called it

'opportunistically diverting attention from yourself'

. But putting attention on the lurkers is exactly what I intended and you, who expressed concern about them going unnoticed, shouldn't have had an issue with it. That's the inconsistency.

There is an obvious disparity between the attention you're giving me and the attention you were giving the lurkers you claimed to be worried about.

[destructor]

Why is destructor attacking you half-assedly while seconding your request? What is your take on this? Is he your scumbuddy?

I'm attacking pwayne half-assedly?

Do you think I'm pwayne's scum buddy?

And Flameaxe's last post almost convinced me to change my vote. /lies

[destructor]

Skruffs, I questioned the integrity of your vote on me. Nothing to say in response?

Why is destructor attacking you half-assedly while seconding your request? What is your take on this? Is he your scumbuddy?

I'm attacking pwayne half-assedly?

Yes.

So what is it about my attack (whatever it was) that makes it half-assed?

Do you think I'm pwayne's scum buddy?

Did I say I thought pwayne was scum? I can't recall, would you mind pointing that out for me?

LOL. When did

I

say you thought so? I was asking because you asked pwayne if I was his scum-buddy. Unless there is something that's come up in this game that makes you think this could be the case, I wonder why you'd bring the possibility up. It's no good throwing shit on the wall if you're not going to try to make it stick at least.

Mod:

Can you prod TylerJ?

[destructor]

A bit. Not just you though. There are a lot of players who could be contributing a shitload more. I've responded to what's been directed at me and added my 2c, so I figure I'll wait for some others to add stuff to the game. I guess I've got nothing new to say at this point.

[destructor]

The above post confuses me.
Why Lowell?
I thought you wanted to lynch me?

I'd rather lynch Flameaxe, anyway.

[destructor]

That made me lol. Scum seem to have a sense of humour.

I want to put my vote back on Flameaxe, and honestly see no reason not to, but I figure I may as well reread or something. pwayne's death doesn't tell me heaps right now besides that scum actually may be being funny. heh.

Actually, what the hell. I'll

Vote: Flameaxe

until my reread is done. I'm catching up with another game, so expect some kinda big post in a few days.

[destructor]

The whole WIFOM thing about your first incarnation in this game being nightkilled, the apparent implication being that pwayne was responsible. Maybe I read that part of the game wrong. I can't say I really understood what happened there entirely. I assumed it was some sort of joke being carried over from past games you shared.

[destructor]

vote destructor

. His latest posts seem strained to play dumb.

I wish he was playing...

He...is?

I meant "playing" as in the "playing dumb" bit. I am inclined to believe he actually

is

dumb because it explains so much more.

I can speak.

[destructor]

Something more intelligent: I'm still catching up with other games. Has anyone reread? Anyone got any new ideas? Does Lowell want to post a proper case against me?

[destructor]

zomg I'm so popular with the night actions.

Something more intelligent: I'm still catching up with other games. Has anyone reread? Anyone got any new ideas? Does Lowell want to post a proper case against me?

I have no "proper" case against you. The case is, as I said, your acting a little too "confused" by what is happening for my taste.

All I said was didn't really get the whole pwayne/Skruffs thing. I figured it was some sort of in joke.

I can't really do much more than say that in defence to your vote.

[destructor]

I'm cool with JDodge, Flameaxe ... lynches, atm.

I agree.

... and Destructor ...

Why? You never got back to me about your vote from Day 2.

[destructor]

Do you

not

think I'm scum? Who

do

you think is scum?

I seriously think we need to lynch the lurkers or we're screwed. And yes, I still haven't done that reread. That's next up right after I finish with one more game.

[destructor]

See all of day 1 and day 2 posts for growing anti-destructor sentiment, the bulk of it is on your attempts to act-protown while smearing pro-town players and not actually scum hunting. ^.^

Smearing pro-town players? Which ones, besides DeathSauce? And how do you know they're pro-town? And most of that anti-destructor sentiment is BS, just like I said your vote was. Still don't want to respond to that?

Lowell, why are you voting JDodge and not Flameaxe?

TSN, unless you actually want to back that up, I don't even know what to say to that.

[destructor]

And jesus, can you guys talk about someone else? I've already said how many times that I'm catching up with another game? At least I'm explaining why I'm not actually posting more content and I'm not the only freaking player here...

I think it's pretty telling that some players like Skruffs and peg are continuously steering conversation back to me, to the apparent complete neglect of basically every other player.

[destructor]

I don't believe you guys are as thick as you're letting on. Since when was obsessing over one player good for the town?

And JDodge, do you

really

believe that's what I'm trying to do? Seriously. As if that's going to happen. How about trying to get a read on some other players?

[destructor]

Because I see this town steering itself to a loss because so many of its players aren't scum-hunting. There have been next to ZERO topics of discussion today and for a good part of Day 2 besides ME. I fail to see how this is productive. I've responded to criticism each time it's bought up and I think I've done so well enough to receive a decent response or have the issue dropped. I'm honestly getting tired of having to fend the attacks off for a two main reasons reasons - 1. I KNOW they're misguided (if from town), and 2. NO ONE else is being discussed.

If there were actually healthy debates on other topics going on too, I wouldn't have half as much of a problem with it all. And on top of that I've stated a number of times

why

I'm not posting more "in depth" content where post players haven't and aren't, yet I'm being criticised for it anyway. If the only people attacking me are town, then scum are likely sitting back rubbing their hands with glee. If scum are on it, then well done, the town's making it that much easier for them.

I'm not asking to be ignored at all. I'm asking the town to realise how narrow and contained discussion has been up to this point.

[destructor]

w00t, I am up to date in my other game. I'll be rereading and pointing out teh scumz soon.

Elmo, who do you think is likely scum?

[destructor]

Reread's coming along. I have no idea if Flameaxe is scum. He should post more. I actually feel like trying to read and build cases on other players is a waste of time given his lack of content.

Did anyone realise that we're one mislynch away from lylo? Well, almost. If we mislynch today, we'd probably be better off no lynching tomorrow. I know I don't want to be in lylo with Flameaxe since there's no chance scum will kill him, so unless he start playing I'm happy to lynch him today.

[destructor]

In other news, Skuff's play seems inconsistent with his play before replacing ryan. These two posts, in particular:

TylerJ - then we shouldn't, theoretically, lynch at all until there are only five of us left, becasue at 5 people there will be a much higher percentage of lynching scum then of town. Right? Wrong. There's no reason to assume one person is town over another, being eager to lynch ryan or deathsauce is only scummy if YOU know they are town. So: *fos*

Compare that to his post in Day 2 (after replacing ryan) where he raises the same argument, but makes no mention of TylerJ at all, instead pointing at me:

If you are a townie, do you really carae who else gets lynched, day 1? Do you have any reason to defend anyone, regardless of how they are acting?

Which is why the people defending dryan are more likely scum.

I am getting the feeling that Elmo is buddying up to me, which is what led to me asking him if he thought I wasn't scum back here (click)

Here's the possible buddying up:

I never thought destructor suggesting lynch all lurkers was a bad idea; I don't generally agree with it wholesale, but I can certainly see why someone would suggest it, especially in a mountainous. As far as I can see, that's what started the destructor wagon, and I don't/didn't like it.

Still don't like the destructor wagon. PEG, Skruffs, what do you feel is the strongest reason to think he's scum? (I am still somewhat lazy, and still need to read his exchange with pwayne at this point.)

Someone sit me down and explain to me why destructor's supposed to be scum in words of one syllable?

What makes me iffy is that he's questioned the wagon, expressed disapproval of it, yet made no apparent effort to look into himself. I can't see any other players he's given this treatment to.

[destructor]

He has been replaced already - TheSweatpandsNinja.

And you're missing the point. I didn't note that you weren't "actively scumhunting" him, but that you didn't even

mention

him. You made a point of it in Day 1, FOSing him for it. Come day 2, and you bring the same argument up again, but this time I'm suspicious for it. And from most of what I've made out, that's pretty fundamental to whatever case it is that you think you have on me.

[destructor]

So I'm suspicious for not making the same point to the same person twice?

I don't get it. I already told TylerJ that - did he continue to act in the manner I reprimanded him for? Wether he did or didn't, if you then started acting in the same manner, and then asked why I wasn't attacking him for it, doesn't that mean you intentionally acted in a scummy manner?

There are a few things wrong with this. Firstly, you're strawmanning my point. I didn't say you were scummy for not making the same point to the same person. Secondly, the behaviour of mine you criticised came

before

TylerJ's anyway. The inconsistency is that you didn't criticise me for it the first time, focusing on Tyler, then in Day 2 you seem to forget that you FOSed him for it and point at me instead. You haven't mentioned him (or really anyone else) for a good part of this game since.


Also, this was not a rhetorical question:

Did anyone realise that we're one mislynch away from lylo?

[destructor]

Vote: No Lynch

It's optimal to no lynch tomorrow if we mislynch today; why not no lynch now and get the info to hopefully get us going in the right direction?

Aw man, can't we just lynch Flameaxe? It's not like he's going to be nightkilled...

I'd rather lynch Flameaxe and No Lynch tomorrow. Worst case scenario, he's town, we cry a bit and No Lynch tomorrow. Best case scenario, he's scum, we party and are in a much better position tomorrow.

I could see a No Lynch being more useful if we didn't have any lurkers here. I'm pretty confident of a few players scum won't be nightkilling anytime soon, so the No Lynch would do nothing to give me a better read of them.

JDodge, you said you knew a Flameaxe town tell that you hadn't seen yet. You haven't mentioned it again so I assume this means you haven't seen it yet. In light of this, do you have any reason to believe he's town? If not, do you see any substantial reason not to lynch him today?

[destructor]

Absence of a towntell does not prove anything at all.

I'm pretty sure you actually argued the opposite against me in Newbie 516.

I do have substantial reason not to lynch him today - his lynch is motivated by the way he always plays.

That's irrelevant to me. Flameaxe has shown no sign that he's going to or willing to contribute to this game. If he's town, I doubt he's even

playing to win

, which I'd love to be a grounds for replacement. If he's scum, he's not even

playing

in the first place, which, again, I'd love to be grounds for replacement.

The reason I want him lynched is that we're probably never going to get a read on him. Scum aren't going to night kill him either way and so I want him out of the way so I can start analysing the players that have actually provided something to analyse. I'm really opposed to going on a wild goose chase trying to deduce scum-pairings between everyone else when Flameaxe himself could be scum. On top of this all, I have absolutely no reason to think he's town at this point and he's been anti-town enough to be scum.

[destructor]

I may very well have argued such as that.

Well, then it seems you're making an accommodation here for Flameaxe.

des, why do you want to waste our single mislynch on what you agree is essentially random chance?

Mostly because of this:

I'm really opposed to going on a wild goose chase trying to deduce scum-pairings between everyone else when Flameaxe himself could be scum. On top of this all, I have absolutely no reason to think he's town at this point and he's been anti-town enough to be scum.

So I don't think it's that random anyway.

TSPN - Are you serious? I'm being given a pass? Most of this day has been about me...

I'm not sure why the wagon on destructor suddenly disappeared. He still seems like the best play to me, to be honest.

Honestly, why do I seem like the best play?

[destructor]

Because you've been consistently anti-town. You're arguments have been weak, and essentially you're being given a pass because "he's inexperienced to the point that he thinks there's still such a thing as a universal scumtell." Your join date says otherwise, so I'm not buying it.

You're full of shit.

I not even going to start believing you believe this until you can show us all how I've been "consistently" anti-town. Show us where my arguments have been weak, and then explain how making these weak arguments makes me scum. Show us how me being "inexperienced to the point of thinking a universal scumtell exists" could somehow negate the criticism you posted above, even if you don't believe it's the case.

If you can't do that my votes switching to you. You haven't done much better than your predecessor.

[destructor]

The only people (sic) that have said they're sure I'm town are JDodge and... that's it.

Still waiting on something from TSPN.

I'm still opposed to the No Lynch on the chance that Flameaxe is scum and my supreme confidence that he won't be night killed.

[destructor]

To start off, you're arguing that we should lynch flameaxe because. . . he's lurking? That's not exactly the strongest case, and that's all you've presented. And how are you so confident he won't be the nightkill again?

I can think of very few reasons that scum would choose to kill him.

And he's not even 'lurking'. You have to be playing to lurk. He's not even playing. Since our mod doesn't seem to think that's a reason to replace him, I want him out of the game the only other way I can think of.

[destructor]

Anyway, destructor, so you think we should lynch an absent player? In other words, we should lynch at random?

Unless you're saying something about the inactivity in this game, no, we wouldn't be lynching at random. Flameaxe hasn't shown any signs that he's planning to contribute to this game and help the town win. The one time he seemed to get into the game was when he was under some pressure, and what he did then was ask to be replaced and self-vote.

Unless someone has a reason to think he's town, I don't see where the hesitation to lynch him is coming from.

[destructor]

Then how do you intend to learn anything about Flameaxe's alignment?

[destructor]

Been waiting a while for that one...

[destructor]

That's pretty much exactly why I want to lynch him. Sure he could be town, but so far as I can tell he's could just as well be scum. I think he's lynch would be informative as well.

[destructor]

Flameaxe.

[destructor]

Actually, why the hell aren't we lynching peg?

[destructor]

Skruffs, I think I've already done what you're requesting.

I'm finding it harder and harder to remain interested in this game, mostly because it's a lurkerfest and generally shit. I wanted Flameaxe lynched yesterday, instead avinashv, a player who was contributing, was lynched for basically non-existent reasons. The saddest thing about that is that there was actually town on that wagon. wtf?

If Flameaxe is scum, given how unwilling most of you here are and have been to lynch him, for reason I can't discern, I can't see the chances of the town wining this game being very high.

I DO realise that mislynching today could be worse than No Lynching, but I've already stated why I think it's could just as well be less informative when we take the way this town has played into account. Hardly

anyone

comes across as pro-town, very few people have taken a reasoned or substantiated stance on anything or anyone, resulting in it being near impossible to get a decent read on

anyone

. So far as I can tell, the town has allowed itself to go to a lose-lose situation.

But, if UA will replace Flameaxe with someone who's willing to contribute and

play the freaking game

, I'd be more enthusiastic. If not, I'm letting you all know that I'm not going to bother anymore and will ask for replacement myself. It's not because I think my team is going to lose, but because I don't want to play in a game that is being run like this one is. I have sincere doubts that UA is enforcing the "play to win" rule here even slightly.

Mod:

Can you replace Flameaxe?

[destructor]

It's been over a week since I made a request of the mod and over two since he's posted at all, and still no word. I'm sorry guys. I'm not up for playing this game anymore.

Mod:

I'm out. Replace me.