STEVEN UNIVERSE 2 - GAME OVER


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Post Post #12065 (isolation #600) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:58 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 11998, Almost50 wrote:Are you arguing for or against my point?
Your point is pretty shit, so against.
In fact, are you telling me scum could have known about your ability from the word go, yet all those who allied with you were Town with the exception of S_S? In what world does that make any sense (for the scum not to try to make use of such a powerful tool they had the info about all along)?
One: I get to choose who I ally with, and I deliberately tried to ally with as few people as possible. Once I stopped allying with McMenno thanks to his death, I skipped allying until allying with Shadow_step. In other words, I've had only three allies the whole game.

Two, aside from me having the choice in who I ally with, my power is of very limited utility: all it does is make scum harder to lynch.
And three, if scum did in fact know about it, they could not vie for control of my ability without it being considered a scumclaim. Because my power is something a town player should never WANT to need. Being harder to lynch is something which scum have a use for and which town have almost no use for, so scum would have more reason to want the ability, and therefore demanding it be given to them would be a scumclaim.

And, again. Doesn't change my point. Scum may have more use for the ability, sure, but still...they sure as fuck wouldn't want to rely on it. Relying on it means that they were in a position where the majority of the town wanted to lynch them anyway. My ability would grant resistance to it, but not immunity: on earlier day phases, there'd be enough people alive to push it through, since it only takes two extra. On later day phases, it only delays the lynch. It only works as long as I'm allied with them and as long as it isn't mylo or lylo. Both of those conditions are things which can change.
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Post Post #12066 (isolation #601) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:11 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 11999, Almost50 wrote:My point exactly. If you care to actually read rather than skim I said you won't be killed BEFORE LyLo. Also, what about me .. "on the other hand"?
...Did you at all read what I said? I'm going to be dead. You won't be. That's what I'm saying.
the fact you've been trying to force your views on us makes me feel I have not been only playing against scum this game, but also against you and our overwhelming will to monopolize the game and lead in a dictatorship manner.
Yeah, and that got us the SirCakez lynch, and the TWIE lynch. Tell me what were your stances on those two?

I've also been explaining exactly where I am coming from.
It's not like I've been demanding blind faith.
I've shown you all the reasons I have and then some for why I feel the way I do.
I've used quotes. Votecounts. Posts, from across the game. Interactions. Stuff players have done this day phase alone. What they say, how they say it, what they are accomplishing. I've told this all to you. So I've laid out my cards. I've displayed much of what I possibly have.

What have you said in response to these things?

Zilch.

What have you said to try and get others to believe you're correct?
Practically zilch.

And that's my fucking problem.

You're not saying why you believe things. Well maybe you'll give a brief explanation. But then you don't go to back it up. You keep it vague. You keep it general. You keep it abstract.

And I can't rationalize with an abstract. I can't evaluate it. I can't weigh if it's right or wrong. Yet that's all you've fucking given me. In spite of multiple pleas to be given something, anything, extra.
It's about me feeling that I have played in this game, not having just booked a spectator's seat from the sidelines of the playground.
AND WHO'S FUCKING FAULT IS THAT?!?
No shit if you're not giving logic and engaging the thread you're a spectator. No fucking shit if you're not giving reasons, if you're not explaining your stances in detail, you're sitting on the sidelines doing jacksquat.
That's my whole fucking issue.
You ARE a spectator. But that's not something that I can fix, now, is it?
I can't magically read your mind and know, "Oh, so
that
is where he's coming from!", now can I?
The only way I know where you are coming from is if you fucking SHOW me where you are coming from AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE ASKED YOU TO DO YET YOU HAVE REFUSED TO GIVE ME.
Whereas, RR first is throwing the game away if there are two scums alive and they are not one.
People keep on saying this.
And I still don't see how it's true.
I mean, it's never happening. Reasonably Rational is scum.
But I don't see how two scum alive leads to a loss if we lynch RR.
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Post Post #12067 (isolation #602) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:19 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Like.

Does nobody here understand how I think?

I have come to this stance after having reviewed all the facts.
Soul-searching.
Dreaming about the game. (Yes I've thought about it in my sleep.)
Putting hours of thinking into the game away from the keyboard.
Spending countless hours IN the game, reviewing it.

I have put forward simple requests. Asking for the gamesolving from Reasonably Rational they are capable of. ( is the closest they've gotten yet to that, but is still not what I asked for. It's largely IIoA: listing what every player currently is, which are facts we all know. We all know the gems. We all know me. We all know the condition for Shiro. There's nothing new in there. Nothing except their stance on each player: how likely/unlikely they are to be scum. That's progress, sure. That's better than what they were giving, yes. But it's still not the comprehensive PLAN I was asking them to lay out, giving multiple options and outcomes for today.)

And from everyone else aside from RR, my request was simple:
Show me why I am wrong.
Show me where in my process I made a mistake.
Show me where I went wrong in townreading a player.
Show me where I went wrong in scumreading RR.
Show me why you think that a player is scum.
Show me why you think that RR is town.

Show me.
Just fucking show me.

I've been asking. Begging. Pleading. For people to show me why I am wrong. To prove why I am wrong to believe things I do.

And nobody has. Well, RR kinda has what with all of their character assassination and misreps of me. But that wasn't what I asked them to do.

And this simple thing has yet to be done.
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Post Post #12068 (isolation #603) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:27 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12009, grapes wrote:RR could also be scum but I think they're just bad town.
And therein lies the problem.

The hydra of Reasonably Rational is, with their combined style which has many strengths and very few weaknesses, one of THE best fucking town players in existence. Now, individually, they're reasonably strong players. Drixx alone can decimate a scumteam. Cerb alone, same. But they both have faults, and individually while they are "strong town players", by themselves, they are not a god-tiered scumhunter. Yet WHEN COMBINED, Reasonably Rational is one of the most obvtown players ever (an obvtown which has been utterly absent this whole game), who while not necessarily having perfect reads has some of THE best reads in the whole damn game.

They treat every player with respect, even those that deserve none. They are geniuses in mechanical exploitation, and set up scenarios where the town auto-wins. As a team, Reasonably Rational not only has the look of a town player, but the strength to push through lynch after lynch on scum players. There's a damn good reason that the only time they're allowed to live is when the scum are unable to kill them.

They are not in any way this shitty of a player. You absolutely CAN burden of proficiency their asses, and that's exactly what I am doing here.
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Post Post #12069 (isolation #604) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:30 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12009, grapes wrote:The fact that those two are the only ones alive that could be threats to earth with the knowledge of Xk's role means that skybird attempting to derail that alliance means there's exactly one scum between them when you consider that skybird was assumed to be confirmed town by many. Simple explanation is that scum didn't think xk had the balls to shoot sky and wanted to save twinwings.
Also this is a point which makes far more fucking sense if Reasonably Rational is scum because it fits their style.

Skybird was assumed to be town. Skybird was not someone that it was thought Xkfyu would actually shoot. So Skybird going in with Xkfyu would not only save Foxbird/Twinwings/Shadow_step's slot, but also give the scumteam an edge beyond that. That sounds an awful lot like a Reasonably Rational induced strategy.

That they pretend this is proof that they are town is damage control. "Xkfyu used this power to kill Skybird, so surely if we were scum, we wouldn't have allowed that!" Except, if they thought Xkfyu wouldn't kill Skybird...yes they fucking would. It has their signature all over it.
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Post Post #12070 (isolation #605) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:39 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12022, Reasonably Rational wrote:Keep in mind that at this stage, a twinwings lynch at some point was obviously going to happen.
Citation needed, especially since...you know. Shadow_step got lynched on day fucking 8. Not day two. When was it at all obvious that slot was going to be lynched? And where was that sentiment? The slot got maybe a couple of votes and maybe a couple of scumreads beyond that--on that day, a mere fraction of the game. While it's not like many people exactly had positive reads on the slot, most were calling the slot completely null or if they tipped in a direction, it being nulltown/nullscum. That's not an assured lynch at all.
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Post Post #12071 (isolation #606) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:43 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12025, grapes wrote:The benefit is that scum were living in a world where skybird was lock-town and thought she was invincible.
I don't think that you were living in that world.
Wrong. They explicitly were. Skybird was in their unlynchable list.
In post 6053, Reasonably Rational wrote:Town/unlikely to be aligned with scum:(important distinction)
Skybird <<< PT with steven
So yeah. The people above are unlynchable yo.

Everyone below has no interactions which make me believe it is impossible for them to be scum, though some are less plausible as scum than others(such as grapes).
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Post Post #12075 (isolation #607) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:51 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12028, Almost50 wrote:If Sky was the one "set to endgame" there's no way in hell where the "Masters of Deceit and Tactical Maneuvers" would have let her go there even if they thought it was only a 10% chance she'd get lynched.
You say this, and I fail to understand why. Skybird, when allied with Xkfyu, would be completely immune to all actions.

ALL ACTIONS. (Not just night actions. ALL. actions. Including kills.)
Now.

When the information was relayed...did you have any reason to believe Xkfyu's kill could trump a bulletproof? (Which is what that was: effectively a super fucking bulletproof.)

Because if Skybird thought SHE WAS A FUCKING BULLETPROOF, and that Xkfyu's kill power COULD NOT KILL HER...then why the fuck wouldn't Skybird be sent in place of Shadow_step? Her being sent would save her scumbuddy. The event used to kill her would fail. More than that it was a bulletproof ascetic of sorts. She couldn't die. She couldn't be targeted. Or so she thought. So how the fuck doesn't that fit with a scum mastermind? It's right in their alley!

Now, they can make a miscalculation! Assume that Skybird's immunity trumps Xkfyu's kill, and be shocked (and horrified) when it turns out, whoops! Nope it didn't. But tell me. Did you, or did you not, know that Xkfyu's kill could bypass kill immunity?
If you did not, any argument for RR not being scum instantly goes out the window.
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Post Post #12076 (isolation #608) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:01 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 8592, Varsoon wrote:If you ally with any player, you will learn if they are a Human or a Gem.
So long as you are allied with a player, you are immune to all actions.
Bolding this. Skybird was in an alliance with Xkfyu. Skybird was thus supposedly immune to all actions.

Her allying with Xkfyu to save the life of the Foxbird/Twinwings/Shadow_step slot therefore makes sense:
One, she was considered confirmed town.
Two, even if not, she was far less likely to be shot.
And three,
even if she was, there was cause to believe the shot would be wasted
.

In fact, looking at the nature of the ability:
In post 9107, Varsoon wrote:EPISODE EVENT: Exposition Only--Trigger any time a player successfully allies with you.
PRIORITY: 2
REQUIREMENTS: +2 Stress or higher.
You may immediately (privately) end your alliance to cause all players allied with you to publicly be removed from the game for an entire Episode.
You may privately decide to kill a single player that is removed in this way. They will die upon returning to the game.
Even if you conveyed the nature of the kill. Xkfyu paraphrasing to you, Almost50, and you paraphrasing to Reasonably Rational. This kill doesn't look like it would trump Skybird's immunity on the surface.

Now, we happen to know in hindsight that yes it did. With Xkfyu's flip and Skybird's flip, we can see the verbiage that would allow it: she was removed from the game, and by being removed from the game, was therefore no longer in the alliance and therefore vulnerable. But that exact detail would have had to have survived the chain.

Tell me, Almost50. What EXACTLY did you tell RR?
Because if you didn't convey the ability in a specific phrasing...then yeah. Reasonably Rational could have assumed Skybird was immune to the kill. In fact! Reasonably Rational could have killed Yume
specifically so that Xkfyu would trigger and waste his event
, on someone who would be immune to its effect. (Or so they would have believed.)
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Post Post #12077 (isolation #609) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:21 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Holy fucking shit I can't believe nobody actually looked at that ability before.
I'm sure that's something the dead thread was livid about.

That actually explains a huge fucking part of what went on. Things didn't make complete sense back then, but now they kinda do.

grapes was killed N1, for being obvious town and having led the lynch on scum, with an aside of fear about grapes's accuracy continuing to improve. Additionally, RR would not have wanted grapes in the game for too long on past experience.

Klingoncelt was killed N2 for many reasons: the fact that she would be seen as confirmed town once DGB flipped for having outed that DGB was a traitor for a start. Also, her being a crystal gem was something that a Reasonably Rational-led scumteam would want: her flip would reveal information about the crystal gems. Now, RR already knew about the gems, but didn't know of their exact nature. Killing one was a great way to expose them for what they were, and made total sense.

Not Chara was killed N3 because it didn't take a genius for scum who killed grapes to figure out why grapes wasn't dead. Most of the game at this point had claimed or at least partially claimed, especially to Reasonably Rational. grapes's role was basically known at this point, and grapes wasn't responsible for his lack of death. Not Chara had also admitted that it had an alliance power that could cover it, which grapes had denied it, meaning that a mechanical genius like RR would be able to figure out that Not Chara's ally power granted grapes the NK immunity that grapes enjoyed. (Incidentally, this is a really fucking huge thing. Not Chara informed us that grapes
did not know about this power
.)

Yume was killed D3 in order to allow for Xkfyu to trigger his event with Skybird, which RR thought would--in a worst case scenario--nullify the event. Skybird probably had flavor to justify being immune to the kill attempt, and Skybird was widely townread so likely wouldn't have been killed. So, it was a safe bet: Skybird would most likely be spared, and if not, the kill would be nullified by her immunity, which would be easily justified.

Titus was killed N4 because of the best opportunity to get rid of her: slice of life. She was normally immune (or at least resistant) to nightkills, but was exposed. She was also in the process of game solving, something RR had a firsthand view of why she needed to be gone. She had dangerous powers, and nobody would question the kill, because she was also confirmed town. Confirmed town, who was BP, who had dangerous powers, and was gamesolving, being utterly vulnerable to being killed. This I think is the one kill which we can all agree needs no explanation, but for the sake of thoroughness, I include it anyway.

farside was killed N6 because she was being defended by all the conftown, and her vote ability represented an extreme threat to the scumteam. Furthermore, she was scumreading Reasonably Rational HARD. She was a wildcard. She was thought vulnerable, because she claimed ascetic, not action immune (as it turned out she was). At that stage in the game, people had written her off as town-or-third-party, and there wasn't interest in lynching her. She was a threat, because with her voting power, she could have lynched RR if she got any support there whatsoever. It'd have only taken one (maybe two) votes in order for farside to lynch Reasonably Rational, and that WAS the lynch farside was gunning for at the time she was nightkilled by the scumteam. She was being surprisingly reasonable and rational (ha), and yet stubbornly one-minded. That's a kill that RR makes before any other player.

Scum could not kill N7.
And N8, scum could not kill, because doing so would confirm both Fuzzy and grapes as town: Fuzzy's shot going through when scum killed would have cleared Fuzzy. grapes being seen not visiting when the scum killed would have cleared grapes. Now, one of these might not be true if Fuzzy shot Almost50, sure, but the presence of the other justifies a lack of a scum kill.

The only night, and I do mean ONLY night, I don't have an explanation for, is N5.

All other nights have a kill explanation.
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Post Post #12078 (isolation #610) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:58 pm

Post by mastin2 »

MoI:
I'll make you a deal.
If, after reading what I've posted (especially , , and ESPECIALLY ), you still don't believe me that Reasonably Rational is the last scumbag...
...I will compromise-lynch Fuzzy, on ONE condition. And one condition ONLY: Reasonably Rational then be permabubbled, and never let go. Even if the game doesn't end after bubbling them! (Which it would.)

I mean I'd do so fully expecting Fuzzy to be town at this point. After Skybird's death, we had TWIE and Shadow_step. While Fuzzy's no moron, I don't feel he's capable of the advanced level play we saw in the form of the scum's moves from N4 onward. I also don't see Shadow_step as exactly a strategical genius. Unless TWIE was calling the shots there, I don't see this being a scumteam with Fuzzy on it.

But if the price I have to pay to get RR out of the game is a lynch on Fuzzy, so be it.

This offer does not extend to a grapes lynch, by the way. You're lucky you're getting this much from me.

But really. Reasonably Rational is the last scum. They're scum regardless of anything else. One scum (which there is), two scum (which you posit, but I'll believe when I see), doesn't matter. That's why I want them lynched today. And if they can't be lynched, they can be bubbled. Bubbling is less-optimal. If the game were to continue after their bubbling (it wouldn't, but I know I need to be prepared for the scenario anyway), we wouldn't know if they were scum or not. Which is why I prefer the lynch. The lynch ends the game immediately, or proves me wrong immediately. A bubble ends the game with minimal delay, or leaves things ambiguous. Not doing either will just lead to this same exact song and dance tomorrow. Or I'll be dead and you can do what you want, but you risk losing to RR for not having done this.

Basically, RR is scum. Period. I'm 97% sure they're the last scum. In the 3% chance they aren't, then seeing them flip would be better than having them not flip, but letting them live to see tomorrow would be worse than that. In short, the 3% hypothetical in which the game continues after RR has been removed from it has the following be true:
RR lynch > RR bubble > RR alive tomorrow.
In the 97% chance that they are in fact the last scum, RR lynch > RR bubble > RR alive tomorrow as well, it's just that there's not as much fuss to worry over because it doesn't matter as much, their removal from the game ends the game. Just a matter of the fastest way, which is lynching today.

Soyeah. Read what I've said. Considering how fucking obvious it is Reasonably Rational is the last scum at this point, this is a really, really, reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally lenient offer on my end. (Delayed victory < instant victory. Instant victory = lynching RR today; delayed victory = not lynching RR today.)
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Post Post #12079 (isolation #611) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:07 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12030, Almost50 wrote:However, even assuming he had joined them starting Climax 3, then it still was a big mistake to take out Yume earlier on Exposition 3. In fact, DOUBLY as much faulty. It raised the stress enough for Xk to actually join the Gems AND allowed him to use his ability to kill.. then Sky goes in willingly to ally with him knowing all this??!!!
You say scum mistake.
I say scum brilliance, albeit a miscalculation.

It's the sort of thing I do all the time as town, except as scum: making a plan which is good, and is reasonable, and is sound, which is foolproof on the surface, accomplishing many things for the team, yet which had a critical flaw that could not have been known.

Xkfyu might've fullclaimed to you.
And you relayed that information to RR.
But Xkfyu paraphrased his role PM when fullclaiming to you.
And presumably, what you told RR was a paraphrase OF said paraphrase.

It only takes one key detail in the way his kill works being lost in the translation for a scumteam to assume Skybird couldn't be harmed by his kill thanks to her own ability immunity.
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Post Post #12080 (isolation #612) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:10 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12035, Almost50 wrote:Xk's bubble ONLY worked on someone allied to them. None of the scum, and especially Skybird of all "had" to ally with him if they knew anything about it.
And Skybird's immunity to actions ONLY worked WHEN she was allied with somebody. So of the scum, she had more reason than anybody else to assume that she was safe.
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Post Post #12081 (isolation #613) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:15 pm

Post by mastin2 »

The point I am making here is:
Basically, in hindsight, we KNOW that Xkfyu's killing ability works on Skybird.
In hindsight, we know this...because we saw it actually work and kill Skybird.
In HINDSIGHT, we know that Xkfyu's killing ability trumped Skybird's action immunity.

So in HINDSIGHT, there is the argument that a scumteam would never have allowed Skybird to ally with Xkfyu knowing of that ability and/or killed Yume allowing Xkfyu to use said ability.

But that's with HINDSIGHT.

At the time. Was there any reason to believe as much? At the time, when Skybird was alive...was there any reason to believe Skybird's action immunity would fail?
Was there any reason to believe that a generic killing action from Xkfyu would be enough to puncture through action immunity?

I
really
don't think so. We know those things ONLY in hindsight because it actually happened. Without it having happened, a scumteam can and probably did assume Skybird was safe.

Ergo, the argument is actually backwards: a scumteam would WANT Skybird to ally with Xkfyu knowing of that ability, and would WANT to kill Yume in order for Xkfyu to trigger and therefore waste said ability. (Keeping in mind an alternative target for it would've been another known scum player.)
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Post Post #12082 (isolation #614) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:21 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12038, Almost50 wrote:Now the ball is once again on Mastina's court, I'm afraid. Check the benefits allying with grapes gives you/him (and I'm talking about HIS effects not yours) and see if he would benefit S_S in anyway and/or would benefit FROM S_S (actually from allying with just about anyone)
Actually, no.
grapes's alliance does nothing but bad things for the partner.
Namely, it prevents their alliance power from working on them. Not Chara told you this D1. (I can pull up the quotes if necessary, but they're there.) I can confirm it today. (Basically: grapes gets the benefit of my ally power. You've seen this demonstrated by him having been at the lynch threshold, and still being alive. His partner does not get the benefit of the ally power. Meaning that my lynch threshold is...the lynch threshold.) So grapes's power would actually be SABOTAGING Something_smart.

So a grapes-S_S alliance would be basically worthless or even detrimental to a scumteam.
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Post Post #12083 (isolation #615) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:43 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12039, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Almost – the Mod revelation(to me) that his Alliance ability did in fact empower the Mafia factional Nightkill spelled the end of my suspicion of him today. There is no reason for scum A50 to not link up with partners after Day 1 to make sure (or as sure as they could get) that no pesky Docs or BP prevented their Nightkills. And especially after the loss of Skybird. Yet we’ve had a significant period of lack of unaccounted for Nightkills. So not voting there today.
This I will buy.
RR – Given as solo Mafia his Nightkill last Night would not have fail on any Non-Commuting targets I don’t see the lack of kill outside Farside as making any sense for RR. He could have easily shot Mastin under those circumstances and no-one would have blinked an eye given Mastin’s confirmed status. Sorry Mastin but your whole “No Killing keeps the suspicion on Fuzzy” theory is great and all but it requires RR to have made a move that GUARENTEES he loses the game as solo scum with grapes being lynched today. I don’t see that as happening.
This however doesn't hold.
There's not one but TWO reasons RR holds fire.
Say RR shoots me.
Say Fuzzy does in fact shoot farside.
Well then.
Almost50 gets confirmation that GRAPES DID NOT TARGET ANYONE. Which confirms grapes as town.
We also get two kills, proving that Fuzzy has a second kill.
You say grapes gets lynched today. But if grapes was CONFIRMED TOWN because of a scum kill last night and Almost50 tracking grapes to nobody...no he fucking doesn't? Which is more likely: town derps at lolninja paranoia, or accepts grapes as town?

Yeah, this is pretty fucking self-explanatory.

"Okay, but what if Fuzzy shot Almost50?"
Well in that scenario, grapes does get lynched, sure, yeah.
And then we lynch either Fuzzy or RR.
And then the following day, we lynch whichever we didn't the day before, in mylo/lylo.
Sure I'd be dead, but it didn't matter.
If Fuzzy had shot Almost50, then Reasonably Rational would have lost the game.
If Fuzzy had shot RR, then...well, yeah, RR would have lost the game.
The only scenario in which RR doesn't lose the game by sheer POE is Fuzzy shooting farside, as so happened.

And therefore, RR assumes Fuzzy is going to shoot farside. No other scenario for scum!RR is worth considering. Fuzzy shoots them, they lose; they can't control that. Fuzzy shoots Almost50, grapes gets lynched today and then we've got two days to lynch two suspects: Fuzzy and RR. RR loses that scenario no matter what (they can't convince the town that Shiro is scum), so it's not something they can control or otherwise influence.
NOW. If Fuzzy shoots farside, as he did? Well, then.
RR shooting me? Confirms grapes as town and semiconfirms Fuzzy as town. Game, set, match. We have three lynches for two suspects, Almost50 and RR. RR loses.
RR holds fire? grapes is left with suspicion. Fuzzy is indeed left with suspicion. We have three lynches...for five suspects, because of Shiro paranoia.

So not only did RR need the farside kill--they also had to plan around it. They needed to assume that farside would die, because if anyone else died it didn't matter what plan they enacted. What power they would use. Whether they killed or no-killed. With a non-farside vig, Reasonably Rational as scum loses the game. A farside kill was therefore their ONLY path to victory. And a no-kill was the ONLY way to ensure exactly that.
Why don’t you explain why he doesn’t make sense from a Dayplay perspective?
Well for a start.
Fuzzy's self-voting, and that's not an act. That's not bravado done to try and dissuade you from lynching him.
Also, Fuzzy is all over the place. He is crazy unfocused. He lacks clear directive. He isn't posting with any idea of what he's doing. He's going everywhere.
Furthermore, while Fuzzy is a reasonably smart guy, there's a certain amount of moonlogic in his posts which goes beyond his ability to fake. The things he is spewing on about aren't things he would think of as scum, but as an unfocused town make perfect sense.

Not good enough?
Okay, try this on for size: Fuzzy's slot has one of the best voting records in terms of actually voting for scum players. I shit you not, go check the votecounts yourself. Seraphim was an early voter of scum. Fuzzy was a consistent voter of DGB. Fuzzy was a consistent voter on Shadow_step, even as we were mislynching Creature. Fuzzy also partook in the TWIE lynch. In short, the only scum slots that Fuzzy's slot hasn't voted were SirCakez (and Fuzzy had JUST replaced in when day one ended, so he didn't have a chance to anyway) and Skybird.

Furthermore, Fuzzy's slot has consistently been voted BY scum. If you read my posts as thoroughly as you claimed to, you would have seen how many times and how consistently Shadow_step tried to lynch Fuzzy. He was trying to lynch Fuzzy every day phase. Day 2, Day 3, Day 4, you name it. So either Shadow_step consistently bussed Fuzzy, or Fuzzy is town.

Fuzzy quite literally has voted more scum than any other player, and been voted by scum more than any player.

That seems to speak loudly enough for me.
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Post Post #12084 (isolation #616) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:54 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12056, MagnaofIllusion wrote:I think she's on cruise control just waiting out the day hoping that others are less stubborn and will just "give in" to her wishes.
Fuck that.
Cruise control would be saying something and then not backing it up.
Cruise control would be not even bothering to say something.
Cruise control would be not bothering to push forward.
Cruise control would be putting no time and no effort into the game.
Cruise control would be doing little more than prod dodging as I put together some empty halfhearted words.

That's what cruise control is.

You know what's not cruise control?
Reading the game, large swaths of it.
Doing repeated isos.
Tackling together literally EVERY SINGLE VOTECOUNT IN THE GAME and then COLOR CODING THEM for convenience, with commentary along the way.
Reading thousands--literally thousands--of posts and bringing up the relevant ones.
Searching for more stuff to prove my stances wrong, and then quoting things when I only find evidence they were right.
Giving my reasons.
Bargaining with people.
Pushing hard for one particular outcome.
Pleading for players to answer, and to do some basic reading of their own.
Pacing back and forth (a way to clear my thoughts and think), doing nothing but concentrating on this game, going through scenarios.
Running mental math endlessly through my mind.
Crunching setup numbers and carefully considering every factor at play.

Don't EVER dare insult me like this again.

I'm putting more work into this game right now than any other player and have lost countless hours to the game as I have reviewed things, and presented things, and tried to get people to realize WHY I am right, rather than sitting on my ass and doing nothing.
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Post Post #12085 (isolation #617) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:14 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12072, TheFuzzylogic99 wrote:why would RR shoot Far when it would be a lot easier to get me to vig them on day 8- If they did not shoot day 6 do you think there was a reason.
You didn't quite understand.
Last night, N8, scum no-killed.
This is simple. No debate about it.

N6, scum killed farside.
This is confirmed, because farside was immune to actions thanks to her ability, and gained a point thanks to her action-immunity ability. Nobody claimed responsibility. Ergo, scum targeted her N6.
Occam's razor: which is simpler? That scum used some previously-unknown ability on a KNOWN ASCETIC N6...
...Or that scum tried to kill someone who they thought was JUST an ascetic (not ascetic+BP as it turned out)?

The latter is far simpler than the former.
Ergo, we can safely assume farside was killed N6.
Ergo, we can safely use that analysis to better determine who the scum are. Scum shot farside N6. This is basically not up for debate, as a given. So since we KNOW scum shot farside, now the question to ask is
why
scum shot farside. The answer I came up with is that the person most likely to take that shot is Reasonably Rational.
Also why do you think they did not kill night 8
Okay, let me explain this as clearly as possible. Assume RR is solo scum.
Fuzzy shoots RR, RR shoots someone:
RR loses, so their shot was pointless.
Fuzzy shoots RR, RR holds fire:
RR loses, so holding fire was meaningless.
Fuzzy shoots Almost50, RR shoots someone:
There are four lynch candidates left--Fuzzy/RR/grapes/Shiro. We have three lynches. We lynch grapes. grapes flips town. grapes's townflip clears Shiro. As a result, we now have two lynch candidates: Fuzzy and RR. We have two lynches left. Say we lynch you. RR gets lynched in lylo (because we'd have three alive at minimum), because they are confirmed scum. In other words, no matter what, RR loses, so their shot was pointless.
Fuzzy shoots Almost50, RR holds fire:
Same exact math. There are four lynch candidates left--Fuzzy/RR/grapes/Shiro. We have three lynches. We lynch grapes. grapes flips town. grapes's townflip clears Shiro. As a result, we now have two lynch candidates: Fuzzy and RR. We have two lynches left. Say we lynch you. RR gets lynched in mylo (because we'd have four alive at minimum), because they are confirmed scum. In other words, no matter what, RR loses, so holding fire was meaningless.
Fuzzy shoots farside, RR shoots someone:
Almost50 gets a result on grapes: grapes did not target anyone. This confirms grapes as town. We have three candidates for a lynch--Fuzzy/RR/Almost50. We have three lynches available. RR shooting in this case condemns them to death.
Fuzzy shoots farside, RR holds fire:
Almost50 doesn't clear grapes. We've got FIVE candidates for the lynch, and only three lynches: grapes/Shiro/Fuzzy/Almost50/RR. Lynching grapes removes Shiro, but leaves us with three candidates for two lynches.

While this does not offer much wiggle Room (RR has to dodge the first lynch and win the coinflip in lylo), it is literally the ONLY path to victory a scum!RR had.
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Post Post #12086 (isolation #618) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:22 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12073, TheFuzzylogic99 wrote: curious what makes you think there is something sinister in the RR read as opposed to just being a terrible read
Because RR isn't terrible as town.

This is how you use burden of proficiency without it being a fallacy.

There are certain, basic, FUNDAMENTAL levels of standards that I hold the hydra of Reasonably Rational up to. These basic standards are a baseline of sorts: "What are they like on a bad day?" On a bad day, they will not have caught any scum (yet), and not have mechanically locked the game down (yet).

They have fallen short of that basic standard. This level of play goes beyond terrible. It's actually flat-out atrocious if they are actually town. I'm dead serious, they've protected every scum since D2. They had a sudden reversal on Skybird from nullish-and-not-cleared-on-mechanics to town-via-mechanics. They only went after DGB after DGB was the default scumread of the entire thread. They avoided pushing TheWayItEnds and actually pushed farside INSTEAD OF TheWayItEnds. They avoided pushing Shadow_step and pushed Creature INSTEAD OF Shadow_step for horrible reasons. They encouraged you to hold fire and not shoot Shadow_step, giving him an extra day. Their mechanical speculation on farside was wrong. Their campaign against the crystal gems was bad.

You were there in the original Steven Universe game, Fuzzy.
Did they act that way there?

No, they did not.

This isn't just an "off game" of theirs.

It's just purely, simply, their scumgame.
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Post Post #12087 (isolation #619) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:27 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12074, TheFuzzylogic99 wrote:if Mastin is scum she deserves to be nominated for a scummy..........not only that but to win
I deserve a Scummy period, for being literally the only one who has been consistently here and actually trying to solve the game from a multidimensional, multilayered approach.

I mean, I'd make a wager here (basically, "Hey, if RR's solo scum, nom me for a Scummy"), but that'd probably be considered an outside influence on the game and thus, therefore be banned.
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Post Post #12088 (isolation #620) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:39 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12081, mastin2 wrote:a scumteam would WANT Skybird to ally with Xkfyu knowing of that ability, and would WANT to kill Yume in order for Xkfyu to trigger and therefore waste said ability. (Keeping in mind an alternative target for it would've been another known scum player.)
And you might ask: why would a scumteam want Xkfyu to waste the ability?

Aside from how it was potentially going to be used on a scum player, this is part of Reasonably Rational's modus operandi as mafia: eliminate threats to the scum. Make as many town abilities as possible be used in as sub-optimally a fashion as possible. When utilizing their own abilities, provide something which looks town, but isn't hurtful to the scum. Integrate into the townbloc, look town, all the while making the town use their abilities in ways which do not hurt the scum.

Xkfyu wasting the vig shot on an immune Skybird would lead to some potential friction in regards to Xkfyu. It would also prevent the vig shot from being used on a vulnerable scum player, which would confirm Xkfyu (and by extent, the rest of the crystal gems) as being town. While it wouldn't allow Xkfyu to shoot town, it is an elimination of a variable. Eliminating variables is the top priority of Reasonably Rational. Yume was a variable. Xkfyu's shot was a variable. Skybird was meant to nullify said variable.

And that plan would've been a good one if Skybird's action immunity protected her from the shot. Which, I cannot stress enough, is a fairly fucking reasonable assumption on the part of a scumteam to make. They thought Skybird was safe. They thought Skybird was in no danger. Skybird's power was supposed to protect her from any and all harm to come her way. When it didn't, I don't care who the scum are. They were surprised. RR, grapes, Shiro, Fuzzy, Almost50, doesn't matter. They didn't see it coming because knowing Skybird had action immunity, they would assume she was safe.
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Post Post #12089 (isolation #621) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:53 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 10787, farside22 wrote:Well I think if kraska is town I'd lynch rr. Just so many things read fake and over the top from him.
^Farside's reads on the latter half of D5. Her other scumreads? Creature (town) and Shiro (only scum if two scum).

So that's pretty damn compelling evidence that RR had reason to shoot farside.
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Post Post #12130 (isolation #622) » Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:02 pm

Post by mastin2 »

By the way, how's this sound for a plan?

Today we lynch one of Fuzzy/RR.
You bubble the other.

Tomorrow, we have either 6p mylo, or 5p lylo depending on the scum killing or not killing.
I think that me allying with grapes is best no matter what (and there is the whole, I might not have a choice, thing, but if I did...), though if you wanted me to not do so, then if RR is lynched and the game continued, I would honor your request.
But! Assuming that I did ally with grapes, there are two outcomes:
-
I was nightkilled:
lynch grapes tomorrow.
If grapes is town...
then Shiro must be town, and you lynch Almost50.
If grapes was scum...
then you make a judgment call between Almost50 and Shiro. Personally given that choice, I'd lynch Shiro in a heartbeat, since the only thing clearing Shiro right now is that Shiro can't be solo-scum.

-
I lived:
we attempt to lynch grapes tomorrow.
If two scum are alive...
then the lynch succeeds, grapes gets lynched, and flips mafia.
In lylo, you make a judgment call, between Shiro and Almost50. Again, given that, I'd lynch Shiro.
If one scum is alive...
then grapes cannot be lynched, and Shiro must be town. As a result, you've got two lynches for two candidates: Almost50 tomorrow, and grapes in the 3p/4p lylo/mylo, who cannot be saved by my ability.

Yes, there is a coinflip involved IF grapes is scum. But let me lay out a concise case for why I don't think grapes is:
-Let's start with what we are assuming here. If there are two scum alive, we are assuming one of them was a leftover who joined the scum faction. We are assuming this player is grapes, as the only viable candidate.
-This means grapes did not start out as scum. Meaning, on D1, grapes was town. This also means on N1, grapes was town, and that the scum really did try to kill grapes N1.
-grapes would therefore have had to, on some later date, taken the option to join the scumteam, having not started with them.
-However, I ask you: thinking of grapes's play, do you think this fits the narrative? grapes drove a scum lynch through D1 HARD. Like, was the main pusher of that scum lynch, hard. He was also killed BY the scum, though he had no way of knowing that until the event Historical Friction demonstrated as much.
So, does this sound like the profile of someone who would willingly join the scumteam? Again. Scum was lynched D1. Scum was lynched D3. Scum was killed D4. Scum was lynched D5. So, what day would grapes have decided to join? From Xkfyu's flip, we know that a leftovers joining scum would likely have a stress requirement.
I'm going to further posit that this stress requirement was negative stress, as a counterpart to Xkfyu's positive stress. But even if that is a faulty assumption. What days could grapes join the scumteam and expect it to be a faster route to winning than just lynching all of the scum? There's D1, but we can safely assume grapes was town then.
There's D2, though that had positive stress. There's D3, though that had neutral stress. Each day after that has progressively less and less incentive for grapes to join the scumteam: Skybird's death is a HUGE deterrent from grapes joining. TWIE's death is a further deterrent from grapes deciding to join. And Shadow_step's death would leave scum with only one member left alive, so grapes definitely wouldn't join at that point.

Think of this logically, from a playpoint perspective.
We know that grapes is either telling the truth and is town,
Or is lying and a leftovers turned scum. (Because if grapes were a third party not turned scum, grapes would just claim as such.)

If the former is the case, then grapes is town and never had a chance to be scum, nor did grapes ever consider it, pushing purely as town the whole game.
If the latter is the case, then grapes chose to side with a team which was continuously on the losing end of plays. We can assume grapes was town D1 easily enough. We can assume then that grapes saw the scumflip of a strong scum role D1. Which makes more sense for grapes to do? Join the team which was just crippled...
...Or fight for the win for the team that is currently ahead? (The town.)

In other words, I don't think we'll ever see a grapes scumflip. From a playpoint perspective--and viewing things from PLAY is a huge fucking thing--it is suboptimal in every way for grapes to side with scum. They have been the losing team since D1.
So I think that following this plan will basically ensure scum cannot win. (I mean, grapes is positing an Almost50-Shiro scumteam which could win, but I'm not willing to entertain that possibility. Almost50 as scum, sure. Shiro as not-solo-scum, sure. But the two together? Nah, I'll eat the loss if I'm wrong there.)
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Post Post #12132 (isolation #623) » Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:25 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12090, Shiro wrote:Mastin, if you are wrong and I am dead tommorow, will you push a fuzzy lynch to the death ?
Well ideally the gems would take care of that by bubbling Fuzzy, assuming an RR lynch and the game continuing. (I mean. I mean it when I say I just don't see that happening. But humoring you, if it did, this is my stance.)

The gems have been saying that grapes needs to die before they bubble someone--I ask of them, why would that be? They can just bubble one of Fuzzy/RR (the one we don't lynch), who are people whose alignment isn't cleared up by a grapes flip. You're the only player whose alignment gets cleared up in a grapes flip. (At least, a grapes townflip.) So all a grapes lynch does is tell the gems not to rebubble you, which is optimal play anyway. (Assuming one scum left, it is proven you're not it, so just blindly bubbling from the pool of possible scum, the bubble target should be within Almost50/RR/Fuzzy/grapes. grapes is a bad bubble because grapes wouldn't flip, leaving Almost50/RR/Fuzzy. Of them, RR/Fuzzy make the most sense. And we're lynching one today, so the other logically makes the most sense to be bubbled.)

And at this point, my basic request is to say fuck theoretical play, and stick to known variables in play.
For instance, while it is not a proven fact that farside was killed N6, it is a safe assumption, because she was a known claimed ascetic (and thus, scum had no reason to target her), nobody claimed to have targeted her (and thus, the player targeting her must have been scum), she claimed to have gained a point from targeting her (and thus, we know she was targeted), and she was town (and thus, had no reason to lie about having been targeted). Between those factors, the simplest conclusion which fits all the facts is that farside was in fact the N6 kill.

Similarly, while it is not a proven fact that grapes was killed N1, it is a safe assumption, because we know that Not Chara had an alliance-based power which protected grapes from the kill. We know that grapes if scum is a leftover who didn't start with the faction and only joined them later. We know that TWIE claimed to have made Skybird's action the truth. We know that TWIE was not confirmed scum when he submitted this action. We know that the only way for it to have been faked is if Skybird, posthumously, was paying enough attention to the game to submit this action at the request of her scumbuddies. We also know that there was no successful scum kill N1. Between all of these factors, the simplest conclusion which fits all the facts and requires the least explanation is that grapes was indeed the N1 kill.

So. Using known variables in play, e.g. Shiro cannot be solo-scum, farside was killed N6, grapes was killed N1, to go over the game from a play perspective. Not even a mechanical perspective! While mechanics support my argument that grapes isn't leftover-turned-scum, fuck mechanics. Sticking just to these known facts and known variables, read the course of the game and ask:

Who makes the most sense as being scum?
Who makes the least amount of sense as being town?

This is what I ask. I've shown my process here multiple times, why I don't think grapes fits the narrative as leftovers-turned-scum, and for that matter, doesn't fit the narrative as groupscum-from-the-start.
I've shown why I don't think Fuzzy is groupscum. (Not by mechanics, by play.)
I haven't really shown strong evidence for Almost50, admittedly.
But I've shown why I think the narrative of the game fits best with Reasonably Rational as scum calling the shots.

Purely. from. play. Not mechanics, though those have contributed to my assumptions and strengthened them.
Not by roles, though those contribute to my argument.
Not by some theoretical gamebreaking strategy.

By play. Just play. I've shown why I think Reasonably Rational is scum and everyone else is town.

Now, from RR, what I've asked is simple: show me wrong with actions in the NOW.
From others, what I've asked is also simple: show my logic wrong. Show me, off of play, why Reasonably Rational makes less sense as being scum than other players.
Show me, off of play, why your scumspect makes the most sense as being scum out of all the players.
Show me, off of play, why your scumspect doesn't make sense as being town more than any other player.
Show me, off of play, why RR makes sense as being town.

This is all that I have asked. Nothing more.
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Post Post #12133 (isolation #624) » Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:49 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12092, MagnaofIllusion wrote:And you flat out are coasting on “RR is the last scum”.
You and I have very different definitions of coasting.

Because contrary to RR's claims.
This isn't a tunnel.
Like. My process REVOLVES. It fucking REVOLVES. Around being shown wrong. Around showing WHY I have come to the conclusions I have. And demonstrating knowledge of the other theories and WHY I don't feel they are true. And then asking others to show WHERE I went wrong in those. I ask, I demand, to be shown wrong. I plead, I beg, to be given reason to believe I am going down the wrong track.

I have done nothing but show, reason after reason, every damn day, every new reflection I have had. Every new thought. Every reason why I feel the way I do. Fuck buzzwords about confirmation bias. Confirmation bias implies bias. It implies that I hold conviction. It implies that I feel like I couldn't possibly be wrong, yet that's the furthest possible thing from the truth. Confirmation bias is warping the facts to fit the conclusion.

But I'm not doing that. I'm giving you the facts I've research, and asked you to give me a conclusion off of them, indicating exactly why I came to my conclusion off of those facts. When you question those facts' validity, I point out why I think those facts hold. This isn't confirmation bias. This isn't tunneling. This is having a read and explaining it. And when questioned on the read, elaborating. And when questioned on the reasoning, explaining. All the while, waiting NOT for an argument about whether these things are true or false. Waiting for an argument about what these things mean.

Mind you: "they mean nothing" is a valid point of view. But when you raise that argument, I will explain why I feel they mean something...
...And then you don't go to respond and explain why you feel they mean nothing. Instead you just write it off as confirmation bias.

I can't engage in a conversation when YOU are the one shutting it down.
I've asked, time and time again. For one fucking simple thing. One damn thing! One simple request! To be shown that I am wrong.
To be shown my points aren't valid.
To be shown my reads are wrong.
To be shown that my scumhunting has pursued the wrong path.
I've asked to be shown why grapes is scum.
I've asked to be shown why RR is town.

You haven't given me that.
Instead YOU are writing my read off as being something it isn't. YOU are the one assuming that I am a lost cause. YOU are the one who keeps on going, "lolmastina" (well, no, actually, you go 'lolmastin' and consistently misgender me when it's right in my fucking profile that I'm a she), and refusing to engage me.

I am, consistently. Engaging you. Consistently. I am talking to you. Consistently. I am pointing out why I disagree with your reasoning. Consistently, when you ask a question, I provide an answer. Consistently, when you ask for something, I have provided it. ("Show me why Fuzzy is town aside from role speculation", being just one instance.) Consistently, when you give a challenge, I either answer it in detail, or explain why I choose not to answer it, in detail. Because I am engaging you. I am listening to you. I see your points, and talk to you about why I don't understand them. Or why I don't agree with them. When you make an argument that doesn't resonate with me, I not only explain why it doesn't resonate with me, but ALSO tell you exactly what kind of argument I AM looking for having, and ask you to reframe your reasoning within that new argument. (Namely, fuck theoretical gamebreaking and talk to me in terms of play.)

That is literally ALL I have been doing this whole fucking phase. Engaging you. And asking for something simple in return: to be engaged.
And yet you refuse to do so.
The point of Mafia is not to see if Mastin is wrong or not. It’s to win the game.
Exactly. Which is why I am advocating for lynching Reasonably Rational. That wins the game. If we assume you have told the truth about your wincon (which I am), I do mean it. 97% chance, RR is just solo scum here. So lynching them ends the fucking game. It wins the town, and the gems, the game, right here, right now, today rather than some future day. Rather than tomorrow. Or in mylo/lylo. Or during the night. The point of mafia is to win as fast as possible.

And the way to win as fast as possible is by fucking lynching Reasonably Rational.
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Post Post #12136 (isolation #625) » Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:57 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12100, Varsoon wrote:
Thefuzzylogic99 (2):
randomidget, MagnaofIllusion
In post 12001, TheFuzzylogic99 wrote:
unvote

Vote Fuzzy
I would like to point out: ANY two-man scumteam could have hammered Fuzzy in this timeframe.

Literally ANY scumteam. (Well, aside from ones including Fuzzy.)
Almost50-Shiro.
Almost50-grapes.
Almost50-RR.
grapes-Shiro.
grapes-RR.
Shiro-RR.

Shiro was online between Fuzzy's vote and here.
Almost50 was online between Fuzzy's vote and here.
grapes was online between Fuzzy's vote and here.
Reasonably Rational was online between Fuzzy's vote and here.

What does this tell us?

Either a two-man scumteam deliberately chose not to lynch Fuzzy when given the chance...
...OR, Fuzzy is scum (with or without a scumbuddy)...
...OR, we don't fucking have a two-man scumteam.

One guess as to which I feel makes the most sense.

Also, question I'd like to ask:
Varsoon: (In general if nothing else,) When a scum player dies in your games, do they retain access to the mafia thread?
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Post Post #12140 (isolation #626) » Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:00 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12101, MagnaofIllusion wrote:I think grapes stands a better than likely chance of being Leftover Scum joining Lapis.
Then show me why.

I've shown you why, on every level, I feel that to not be the case.
By grapes's play.
By the gamestate.
By mechanics.
By setup balance.
Literally every fucking way, I've demonstrated why I feel grapes doesn't make sense as leftovers joining with scum.

You've not once demonstrated why you think grapes does fit.
This has been a consistent trend in our arguments. I raise about ten points. You address maybe three of them. I respond to your addressing, and then I ask for counterpoints showing the opposite.
...I receive silence.

If you want me to work with you, all it takes is actually engaging me.
This?

This aint engaging me.
You can’t prove people are Town via anything short of IC status confirmed by the mod and asking for that as evidence is stupid.
I didn't ask for proof! I didn't ask for some locked, definitive, absolute evidence!

I asked to be SHOWN.
Just fucking shown!

Is it that fucking hard to just fucking show me something?

If so, maybe that says something about what it is you're trying to show!

Because I'm not asking for proof. I'm asking for just being shown. And you're stubbornly refusing to do even that.
Now the fact that he has suddenly “come alive” after it is clear that he’s realistically a lynch candidate and only got saved by your Alliance ability fits very well with scum (in this case Leftover Joiner variety) who got an early Town read and has been cruising along on that just looking for endgame.
Except grapes didn't come alive just today. grapes started coming alive after the kraska lynch. kraska was a consistent scumread of grapes. She flipped town. Instantly, something grapes had been assuming for many day phases to be true was proven to be not true. And instantly after that, there was a change in tune from grapes. Compare the third page of grapes's iso pre-kraska and post-kraska. The post-kraska starts at . Instantly, we go from basically a one-track mind (lynch kraska) to engaging everyone and talking about everything. grapes went from sitting back to actively talking.

There was no pressure on grapes at the time. The pressure on grapes didn't start until, what, yesterday? Even yesterday it wasn't a large focus; the only two really pushing grapes were Almost50 and Reasonably Rational. And in the case of RR, they adamantly denied that they were pushing grapes. (Well at the least, denied that grapes was someone they were advocating being vigged, which I can give them. But they definitely were pushing grapes.)

Name one other person on D7 who was pushing grapes.
That'd be 3/5 votes for a lynch so much as today, yet alone two days ago when the lynch majority was higher.
Just one.
You get the point. grapes was under no pressure D7. Yet grapes went around and increased his activity anyway. Why? Because grapes randomly thought, "might as well regain some lost towncred"? Because grapes feared nonexistent pressure? Or, how about--radical idea here, I know--grapes just had his major scumread flip town and started to reevaluate off of it?

Gee I wonder.
Grapes starts the day with a farside vote at after saying that both DGB and farside are good votes in . In that reads post he also puts Shadow as a secondary scum read with Kraska and RR. again shows soft suspicion of Shadow (asking his favorite kind of rope). And then we get a soft “Skybird might be scum” at .
Are you trying to prove grapes is town?

Because, um.
Yeah.
That...is pretty much what you're doing with those points.
You're asking me to believe that grapes, freshly joining the scumteam, valued the life of a traitor, and proceeded to soft-bus basically the rest of the scumteam. After having already hard-pushed SirCakez on Day One.

Your whole idea of grapes coasting on the towncred from day one falls apart based on that alone. If grapes truly were coasting on the D1 towncred, then the soft-bussing becomes absolutely unnecessary and actually hinders grapes.

You're not making sense here at all with your argument. It's contradictory at a fundamental basis.
Grapes is acting contrary to his stated reads (moving from a dominant wagon on one of his top scum reads and ignoring his other top scum read that was the next most viable wagon) and simply joining a vanity wagon on Town.
You're asking me to buy that grapes didn't think kraska was as scum as DGB? :lol:
Sorry, no.

kraska had been one of grapes's scumreads since Day One. That scumread never went away. Grapes voted kraska basically every single day phase. Almost without exception. And I do mean almost every day phase. You know WHY grapes voted kraska almost every day phase? Which is simpler to you: grapes as leftovers-turned-scum decided to pursue a vanity vote for the whole game while soft-bussing his entire scumteam...
...OR, get this. grapes as town had kraska as a larger scumread than the scum?

The latter is far easier for me to digest. Because I absolutely don't see grapes's attempts at lynching kraska being vanity, either. Grapes was pushing kraska hard at many points in the game. Literally every day phase, I can point to places where grapes pushes for a kraska lynch. That's not grapes wasting for the whole game. That's grapes trying to get a lynch the whole game. And was a kraska lynch even worth it? Not really, no.
In post 7812, Varsoon wrote:Farside22 (8): Titus, SnarkySnowman, MagnaofIllusion, TheWayItEnds, DrippingGoofball, Skybird, Yume, Xkfyu
DrippingGoofball (6): Shiro, Thefuzzylogic99, Not Chara, McMenno, Creature, Farside22
Kraskaesque (3): mastin2, grapes, Shadow_Step
Three flipped scum fueling Farside and another scum on kraska with grapes.
And who's grapes's scumbuddy, MoI?
Shiro? On the DGB wagon. Fuzzy? On the DGB wagon. Almost50? Not on those wagons. RR? Not on those wagons.
If you think grapes is scum with a scumbuddy, either you posit that the scumbuddy was voting DGB in a bus, or you posit that the scum is...Almost50 or Reasonably Rational.
In which case...you lynch RR.
First mention at all of DGB after the initial “Hey, they are a great vote” is basically downplaying interaction reading since DGB is a traitor.
...So?
I took the exact fucking same stance.
Like, you'd have better luck arguing that grapes was mirroring my stances as scum deliberately to hide.
Because I said the exact same things.
DGB is a traitor, interactions likely useless. DGB is a good lynch, but I'd prefer to lynch elsewhere. Fuck, as you yourself acknowledge, I went after kraska. You're painting these things as only being indicative of scum, when I know for a fact, having fucking DONE them IN THIS GAME at the EXACT TIME YOU ARE ACCUSING GRAPES that there was in fact a very town reason to have taken that stance: I was under the impression that the scum didn't know DGB was for sure a traitor (even though there was no reason to believe otherwise). I was under the impression that if DGB was in fact a traitor she didn't know her scumteam. (Because she wouldn't have outed herself to KC otherwise.) In other words, DGB interactions would be...useless. grapes taking this stance is nothing condemning in the least.
Then at grapes hops on the DGB wagon with narry a comment why.
You're missing something important which happened:
Yume was killed, and votes were reset.

That SnarkySnowman wagon?
Vanished.
The DGB wagon?

Didn't.

So grapes wasn't switching wagons.
grapes was casting an initial vote on a wagon.

Timeline is important. And it was literally his second post (the first being an acknowledgment of the event) after this had happened.
So it's a matter of luck of the draw in timing, really. Had grapes been online earlier, the vote would have been cast earlier. As a result, grapes's positioning would have been earlier.
Opens with a farside vote at .
Yes, because grapes was specifically asked to vote farside by Reasonably Rational. That's an important detail you're forgetting. The vote grapes was casting? It wasn't valid. It was a proof of his inability to vote. You remember that whole fucking thing about that being the day of not being able to vote; you said it yourself. Grapes's
actual
first vote that day phase?

, a vote for TheWayItEnds.
No seriously go check the fucking votecounts if you don't believe me. The vote for farside didn't count because grapes had no alliance. Grapes did not cast a vote after that until 9975, which was on TWIE.
So TWIE is the leading wagon but grapes isn’t voting one of his top suspects at this stage.
Yeah, but grapes wasn't voting
anyone
at that stage. Not even his favorite wagon, kraska.
TWIE gets lynched this day and grapes ends up on the kraska vanity wagon at Vote Count 5.06.
So I ask you this:
TWIE was the given lynch for the day.
This is a fact.
grapes was voting TWIE.
grapes hopped OFF of TWIE, the given lynch.
grapes didn't go to a viable counterwagon. grapes went to a vanity wagon.

What the fuck do you see there that is scum-motivated?
Because I'll tell you what grapes as scum would do: not unvote TWIE. Stay on the wagon for the towncred it'd offer. TWIE was getting lynched. That wagon didn't need grapes to go through. So grapes being on the wagon makes grapes as scum look good. grapes hopping off the wagon does nothing but make grapes look bad--the polar opposite of cruising, as you are presenting the grapes narrative as being.

Sure, scumhunting 101 tells you "oh if someone hops off the wagon of scum it must be a scumbuddy trying to save the scum!".
But you're not a fucking amateur.
You should know better than to buy into that bullshit.

grapes hopping off the lynch of TWIE has no scum motive: TWIE was an inevitable lynch. Staying on the lynch gave town credit. Hopping off would draw attention to grapes once TWIE flipped scum.
grapes hopping off the lynch of TWIE has town motive: grapes, not knowing who the scum are, wouldn't know TWIE was for sure scum.

Your narrative just simply doesn't fit the facts.

And the rest of your case is basically gibberish. Was there a point to it? Because all I saw was words describing grapes's action, where grapes renewed the Shadow_step suspicion. And cast a vote on Shadow_step, when before grapes was...not voting. That, again, is an important distinction to make: huge fucking difference between voting and switching, and not voting and casting an initial vote. And for someone so fond of VCA, you seem to discard the fact that Shadow_step? Contrary to your claims, not a safe wagon.
In post 11244, Varsoon wrote:
Creature (LYNCH!):
Shiro, Almost50, Shadow_Step, mastin2, Reasonably Rational, MagnaofIllusion
Shadow_Step (4):
Farside22, Creature, Thefuzzylogic99,
grapes

Not Voting (1):
randomidget
With 11 Alive, it takes 6 to Lynch.
Grapes's vote?
Was the FOURTH of SIX NEEDED.
grapes put Shadow_step at L-2.
Lynch, minus two votes.

That's not a safe vote.
No matter how you fucking slice it. Especially if, say, randomidget cast an L-1 vote on Shadow_step, and/or you did.

Your narrative just doesn't hold up.

...But having said that.
Thank you for at least giving me this much.

I do expect a response to all of this though. You've given your reasons. I'm giving why I don't feel those reasons are valid. You have only yourself to blame if you don't give me more.
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Post Post #12141 (isolation #627) » Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:01 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Also, unfortunately, I've spent the last two hours (no seriously, TWO HOURS) in this game, and it's 6. I was supposed to start getting ready to leave 15 minutes ago, so I'm not getting caught up on the rest of the thread right now, sorry. You'll have to wait until I get back.
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Post Post #12153 (isolation #628) » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:36 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12103, MagnaofIllusion wrote:
@Mastin
– Why don’t you ask grapes about his claimed Cop Event? I’d really like to see your take on what he claims to have.
If you mean in private, you'd be fundamentally forgetting a particular aspect of my alliance with grapes.

If you mean in public? Nothing I say is any different than it coming from you. I have no knowledge of grapes's event. But frankly I don't care about the event--events on a rolecard are almost all town powers with town flavors. What knowledge is there to be gained in knowing grapes's event? That it hasn't been used?
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Post Post #12154 (isolation #629) » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:56 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12116, grapes wrote:and maybe the inconsistency there could just be attributed to apathy?
Right.
The second-highest post count in the game at nearly a thousand is suffering from a lack of obvtowning from apathy.

The amount of hoops people are jumping through to justify, to explain, to write off RR as town is just mind-boggling.
We're on the right track, though, I believe. One of a50/rr is desperately pocketed town and the other is scum.
Okay. Tell me which of them looks to be playing the part of pocketed town.
And tell me which of them just looks like scum.

Because to me Almost50's stance of "I'd rather lose than lynch RR"? That looks an awful fucking lot like pocketed town.
RR's stances on the other hand, where I have to fight tooth and nail to get anything resembling content? That looks quite a bit like scum.
Cerb at least tried to hear me out (is that scum who knows though).
Literally the towniest thing about them was that, I will agree there. You won't find me disagreeing about Cerb hearing you out and listening and putting in some effort to consider being the towniest thing they have done and even a potential sign they are town. I saw it myself and even acknowledged it.

But while it looks good, so does every other player. (Well, except Shiro to be honest. But that bounces back, once more, to there needing to be two scum left alive, a premise I doubt.)
Fuzzy has the most objective reason of any player to be considered town.
You have strong objective reason to have not started as scum. The only question is whether you would have a role where you had the option of joining scum and decided to do so. I have laid out my reasons for not believing this.
You're right in that it leaves RR/Almost50 left.
Yet Almost50 continues to say he encourages his death and is actively working towards that. He has shown such a level of craziness that I think it's beyond what he's capable of faking as scum. I don't see the scum motive in his actions. Where's his plan? Where's his agenda? What's he hoping to accomplish? I see a player who is being a stubborn ass, but I don't see scum.

In contrast, RR continues to say they should absolutely not be lynched today. Every step of the way, they insist that they cannot be today's lynch. They have shown immense survivalism the whole game. And the kill narrative for the game fits them best of all. The scum have acted in a way which suggests intelligence beyond what I'd think Shadow_step would be capable of, and TWIE died D5 so he couldn't have called all of those shots and doesn't quite fit anyway. Heck Skybird didn't exactly seem like a scum mastermind either. The intelligence with which the scumteam has acted is reminiscent of RR's scumplay. The level of bad pushes and simple wrongness shown is outside of the characteristics I define their towngame by. Most of all, I can see the scum motive in what they have done. I see a scum plan, and a scum agenda attached to all of their moves. Now, seeing doesn't necessarily mean it's true. When I say I see something, it means I have envisioned the possibility of how it could work. To give an example, I have also seen the possibility of the crystal gems being a malevolent third party, yet I obviously don't believe that in spite of having seen it. All the same: that I have a crystal clear picture of why their actions make sense as scum is a very good sign for them actually being...scum.
Why won't you vote a50 today?
Because I don't think the lynch is possible.
Fuzzy would be a town lynch, but is possible.
You would be a town lynch, and are impossible.
Shiro won't be lynched today period.
RR is my preferred lynch and is theoretically possible, thus my current vote: they are my preference.
Almost50 is a townread, albeit more likely to be scum than Fuzzy is, yet is far less likely to be scum than RR. However, it doesn't matter what I think, or what you think. It matters what the rest of the town thinks. MoI is deadset against it. randomidget will follow Magna when push comes to shove. RR is presumably against it.
Short of Almost50 self-voting, Shiro voting, and Fuzzy voting, a lynch on Almost50 simply can't happen for that reason alone.

Thus why I continue to push for a lynch on RR.
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Post Post #12155 (isolation #630) » Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:11 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12121, Reasonably Rational wrote:Minimum competence assigned to scum should mean they would have asked whether or not that event would pierce BP.
The problem is:
Varsoon will not answer about a living player's role.

Xkfyu was living at the time.

Ergo, scum would be unable to ask about ANY part of Xkfyu's role they weren't experiencing first-hand.
And by the time scum would be experiencing Xkfyu's role first-hand, it'd be too late to change anything, now, wouldn't it?

Again: hindsight bias. You can get any answer from varsoon about a flipped role if asked in the right way.
You can't get an answer from V about an unflipped role that you only know about via a claim.
Even dealing with hypotheticals is a venture where Varsoon is ambiguous as much as possible.
They had just removed Yume, removing a permanent alliance and thus permanent source of protection.
I'm pretty sure that only granted the benefits of an alliance D1.
In post 8592, Varsoon wrote:
EVENT:
Sworn to the Sword

If used during Episode 1, the following will happen:
You will form an alliance with the player with the flavor of 'Steven Universe'.
You will gain a double-vote
for the rest of the game.
Varsoon said that Yume formed an alliance with Skybird, no "for the rest of the game".
Varsoon DID specify Skybird's double vote was for the rest of the game.
If Skybird's alliance with Yume was permanent, then wouldn't it say so in Skybird's role? "You will form a permanent alliance with the player with the flavor of Steven Universe"?
A permanent alliance is a huge fucking thing.
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Post Post #12156 (isolation #631) » Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:38 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12135, grapes wrote:You realize the bolded makes no sense when if it's just shiro and almost left alive then shiro is confirmed town anyway if the game's not over.
The bolded also relied on you flipping scum.
If you flip scum, then Shiro is no longer confirmed town, and has the most lurkfest coastiest iso of any living player in the game--on sheer policy alone, I'd lynch that.
If you flip town, then Shiro is explicitly confirmed as town.
Why is the conversation for you always RR or Grapes. And not RR or Almost. When your reasons for townreading me are vastly more compelling that your reasons for townreading almost?
Because I change my tune depending on my audience.
My main audience is MagnaofIllusion, because MoI is confirmed town and yet is also my main opposition.
My secondary audience has been Almost50 because he's been the main one talking to me aside from RR (who isn't as much of a target audience for me for obvious reasons), by sheer happenstance.
In both cases, they have little reason to talk about lynching Almost50, and the subject at hand is purely RR vs. grapes, in which I explain why not to lynch you and why to lynch Reasonably Rational.

When I talk to you, obviously, yeah, it changes, to focus on RR vs. Almost50, in which I explain why I want to lynch RR first.

To some extent, also, it has to do with the fluid nature of my reads. (YEAH BECAUSE GUESS FUCKING WHAT MY READS AREN'T...uh, what's the word I was looking for? Not "stale", but the other one used mostly as an insult and indicator of apathy. Not quite "unmoving", there's some other word I'm looking for. WELL WHATEVER THE WORD IS MY READS AREN'T THAT.)

Namely: my read on Almost50 right now is that he's the second-best possibility for being scum.
My read on Almost50 at other times has been he's the least-likely of our nonconfirmed to be scum.
This shift in opinion is present in my attitude as well: when I feel like Almost50 is townier than the rest of you, he drops out of the "yeah lynch him" pool.
When I feel like it's plausible Almost50 is scum, he shifts into the "get rid of at earliest opportunity" pile.
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Post Post #12157 (isolation #632) » Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:40 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12137, grapes wrote:What reason could he possibly have to townread them both equally as strong, considering Foxbird had done essentially nothing?
There is a possible answer I can think of, but best ask this of Almost50 first, yes?

This isn't something you want to ask others because if they answer first, all Almost50 has to do is steal one of theirs.
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Post Post #12158 (isolation #633) » Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:47 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12152, Almost50 wrote:As an astute mod I would have expected her to tell thye difference even if I myself didn't notice it.
Not the point.
We know that Skybird wasn't immune because she fucking died.
Period.
That simple.

So there's no telling the difference in hindsight; we already know that the ability works that way so asking about it IN HINDSIGHT is useless because no fucking duh that's how it works, we saw it work that way so we know it works that way.

The point I was making is whether the SCUM would be able to tell the difference
before
allying with Xkfyu themselves. That being, would Skybird have KNOWN she wasn't immune? Not us on day nine after she's long-since dead. Her on the day she made the alliance.
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Post Post #12188 (isolation #634) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:29 am

Post by mastin2 »

I hate doing this.
I am very very sorry, Fuzzy.
But:
VOTE: Fuzzy.
I said I would do this for deadline. I meant it.
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Post Post #12192 (isolation #635) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:36 am

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12159, Reasonably Rational wrote:Mastin, what content are you looking for here from me?
The terms haven't changed.

Not knowing who the scum are shouldn't be a fucking problem for you.

You should have had a plan for every outcome today--you being lynched.
Someone else being lynched.
grapes being lynched.

You should have laid out the consequences of each path, and what the follow-through actions on each path would be.
What each path would mean.
And then from the follow-through, forming the optimal mylo/lylo situation.

I've been asking you to do this since daystart.
Literally nothing more than just. fucking. this.

And you've consistently dodged it.
It didn't require reads, though reads would help contribute I am sure.
All it required is some sort of hierarchy, an order to things, off of the possible outcomes today. With the only thing reads contributing to being commentary on which plan you think is best.

In short: I was looking for a, "If we lynch us, this is what should happen; Fuzzy, this is what should happen; grapes, this is what should happen." Then, explaining each in detail, going into tomorrow, and even lylo. And after explaining each plan, giving the summation, "Given these options, I currently prefer *this plan*, over *these other plans*, because *reasons*."

Something I've seen from you hundreds of times.

Yet you've consistently dodged this even though my request for this was abundantly clear.
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Post Post #12193 (isolation #636) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:38 am

Post by mastin2 »

Like.
Magna has offered a plan to this effect.
*I* have offered a plan to this effect!

So why the fuck have YOU, the person who specializes in plans to these effects, not done this?

That was my whole damn point!
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Post Post #12196 (isolation #637) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:42 am

Post by mastin2 »

And don't you pretend I was ambiguous about asking for this.
I've been mentioning it every step of the way.
"I don't want RR to prove they are town off of past actions. I want them to demonstrate they are town off of CURRENT actions. I want them to show me a path to victory which includes their death today. I want them to show me every possible path to victory, including one which has their death today." Various others to that effect. Simple. Show me the plans. I even said that some of your posting came vaguely close to it, like laying out the summation of feelings on every slot! And then I explained to you exactly how that came close, and also how it still wasn't what I was looking for.

I gave you a guiding hand through what I was looking for. It's not like I was keeping this a vague, mystical secret. I was as explicit as possible, spoonfeeding you LITERALLY EVERYTHING YOU'D NEED TO HAVE in order to put together what I was looking for from you. Yet you never. once. delivered.
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Post Post #12206 (isolation #638) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:26 pm

Post by mastin2 »

I'm not happy with these turns of events, but on policy, grapes should be left bubbled even though it should be pretty damn obvious he is town and Magna you're a fucking idiot for bubbling grapes because I was going to lynch him today to get that info and YOU bubbling him means now we'll never get it.

The scum's event here, however, had a pretty damn clear purpose. If grapes wasn't bubbled by Magna, my alliance with him would have been sabotaged by this event. This would one, mean he would be vulnerable to being lynched, and two, it'd be far easier to in fact lynch him. So grapes is town, albeit bubbled town.
Shiro can't be solo-scum, and can only be scum with grapes, who...would have been at a massive disadvantage thanks to this scum event. (Like, think about what the purpose of the event was. It quite literally was being done as to allow grapes to be lynched. There's ZERO other reasons to trigger the event. You can argue that scum triggered it to make grapes lynchable as to deter us from trying to lynch him, sure, yeah, but that's a load of bullshit and you fucking know it is.) If there were other alliance powers in play, sure. This would be to stop them. But Fuzzy was lynched. Almost50 had used his. The only non-gem player privy to the alliance powers of the gems is RR (thus this would incriminate them if not clearing grapes), so the only alternative explanation to the event being an attempt to fuck grapes over is an attempt to sabotage the gems.

VOTE: Reasonably Rational.
If there's two scum alive not including RR, so be it. We lose, I'll eat the loss because that'd be the Almost50-Shiro scumteam I rejected. I'll take blame for it, too.
If there's only one, then this is either L-1 or L-2. Presumably L-2. Either way, doesn't matter.

I'm confirmed town.
Almost50:
Please share with the town every message I have sent you, especially the one from last night.
randomidget is also confirmed town. (Well close enough.)

Between Shiro, RR, and Almost50, we have our scum.
And there, the obvious choice remains as it always has been: Reasonably Rational.
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Post Post #12207 (isolation #639) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:33 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Okay. To explain that more clearly:
-The scum event could not be sabotaging Shiro since Shiro has nothing worth sabotaging.
-The scum event could not be sabotaging Almost50 because Almost50 has nothing worth sabotaging anymore.
-The scum event was used in an attempt to sabotage
something
.
-As a result, the scum event could only be used as an attempt to either sabotage the gems, or grapes.
-In the case of the former, the non-gem player most privy to the alliance powers of the gems is Reasonably Rational. In the case of the latter, it is strong evidence for grapes being town.
-In the case of the latter, with grapes as town, we can assume Shiro is town because Shiro as scum requires a second scum and with it not being grapes, the options are Almost50 and Reasonably Rational anyway.
-Ergo, in the case of the latter, we don't lynch Shiro. We lynch one of Almost50/RR.
-In the case of the former, we lynch RR.

-Ergo, no matter what, Reasonably Rational is not a bad lynch.
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Post Post #12208 (isolation #640) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:36 pm

Post by mastin2 »

(Alternatively, the scum event wasn't used to sabotage anything, but rather, used to prove scum had the ability but chose not to use it earlier. "Hey. Scum had this powerful ability to sabotage alliances, and at key points in the game, they didn't use it. That's evidence we're town, because we would have used it!" Yes, there is a heavy implication with me saying this.)
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Post Post #12210 (isolation #641) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:57 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Though, actually, I do have an idea.
In post 12163, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Background – in out PT grapes claimed to have an Event and an ability that could work in conjunction.
The Event requires Stress +4 and grapes could target a player and both he and the player are removed from the game.
If the player is Not a Threat to Earth both will return at the end of the current Episode. If the player is scum Stress goes immediately to -4.
randomidget:
talk this idea over with Magna.

If you released Magna (DO NOT DO THIS UNLESS WE ARE 100% ABSOLUTELY SURE MY PLAN WILL WORK!), stress goes to +4, right?
If you then unbubbled grapes, wouldn't grapes be able to trigger the event?

Have grapes remove himself and Shiro from the game. If they are the scumteam, then he'd refuse. We lynch grapes, then after he flips scum, we lynch Shiro. If they are not the scumteam, he removes himself and Shiro from the game. For the purposes of a town win, that should count, correct? You can see where I'm going with this.

If grapes's event ability works the way he claims it does, then removing himself and Shiro from the game should be possible.
They both get removed and are the scumteam, we should win.
grapes makes ANY excuse whatsoever to not do this, we lynch grapes and then with a grapes scumflip we lynch Shiro.
grapes does this and stress doesn't go down? grapes and Shiro return to the game and are both confirmed town.

This plan, as far as I can tell, has no flaws in it, assuming that grapes's abilities does in fact work the way that grapes claimed it did.

Am I wrong?
Because I'm pretty sure this works.

-grapes and Shiro get removed.
-We lynch one of Almost50/RR.
-I get nightkilled, but grapes and Shiro return to the game.
-Scum's wincon doesn't get triggered, because grapes and Shiro should return simultaneously to the time of my death, meaning there's no time period in which there are no longer members of the Earth alive.
-We lynch the other of Almost50/RR.

-grapes refuses to get removed.
-We lynch grapes.
-I die, but grapes flips scum.
-In lylo, you have to make a decision between Almost50/RR/Shiro, but it's probably Shiro.

But I need you to consult with grapes about his ability, consult with your own abilities, and crunch the math to make absolutely SURE this would work. It doesn't change my vote either way (if it doesn't work I'm still lynching RR; if it does work I'm lynching RR before Almost50), so I'm not going to unvote.

But I want you to go over the possibility, because I'm pretty sure this plan works.
A gem flipping counts as a non-scum, and raises stress when they die.
MoI being flipped would raise stress to +4.
grapes, when released, would be able to trigger his event.
You can release grapes during the day.
grapes would be able to target Shiro.
grapes would be removed from the game with Shiro as well.
grapes and Shiro, when removed from the game, count as dead, and thus if they were the scumteam could not win. (Essentially, it's identical to them being both bubbled at the same time.)
grapes and Shiro would return to the game and become alive before scum could endgame the town/gems.

Is there anything in the above which isn't accurate?
Because I'm pretty sure it's all accurate.
So I'm pretty sure my idea would work.
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Post Post #12211 (isolation #642) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:58 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Oh and we either just lynched or RR's at L-1.
For now:
UNVOTE: RR.
To humor grapes on the possibility of a Shiro-Almost50 scumteam.
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Post Post #12213 (isolation #643) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:11 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12209, Almost50 wrote:The first drawing (drawing #2) had no text to directly explain it, but I think it meant Mastina is ascetic (?) and cannot kill. (The text said it proved Mastina can send messages during Climax and that these messages are mod-confirmed to be true as long as they contain neither "speculation" nor alignment info.
No, it's not saying I'm ascetic and cannot kill. The text you received was the message I meant to convey. The information you received should have been mod-confirmed to be true, and the information you received should have told you that I have the power to send messages that will be mod-confirmed as true. I needed to do this first as to allow you to understand the nature of my ability, and know that this isn't a messenger role, so much as it is a limited hybrid of a fruit vend and a friendly neighbor with a side of messenger, in that I can't convey alignment but I can convey anything short thereof that I 100% KNOW is true, allowing me to confirm facts rather than just stating them to be so.
Message #2 (drawing#3): is a list of whom Mastina allied with during the game up until Episode 7.
This is what I shoulda sent last night, if it wasn't obvious enough. I got the ideal order of my power wrong. People were confused as to the nature of my alliances, so I thought I could clear it up.
Message #3 (drawing #4): Mastina was telling me it takes 2 more votes to lynch her ally and that her allies on Season Finale cannot be lynched. (Disabled in LyLo, but no mention of MyLo here)
Well mylo counts as lylo as per V's clarification, but I didn't have that clarification at the time.
Hmm.. looks like some messages got deleted, so I'd appreciate a reminder of the missing one, but here's last night's message: Yume (Steven Universe) DID get confirmation o Mastina's alignment in their PT (which does not count as an alliance).
This is the important part, and what I was saying I should've sent earlier. With Almost50 vouching this, we can put to rest any and all doubt whatsoever as to the idea that Yume was lying about knowing my alignment.

So Yume knew my alignment. Meaning, either Yume lied about what said alignment was...or Yume told the truth about me being town.

The message that you're missing is my miller message: I informed you that I have a permanent passive causing me to always show up as a threat to any investigation. That was Night 8.

The text is the important part, but if you want, you can describe the images once you get the go-ahead from Varsoon. (I wouldn't actually know, because I don't receive the messages I send. I just send them. So you're the one who needs to ask if you can describe the drawings.)
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Post Post #12215 (isolation #644) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:19 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12212, Reasonably Rational wrote:Hope that wasn't it because if so you may have just thrown the game away.
I'm assuming today isn't lylo because if it were lylo, then taking one less vote to lynch wouldn't work.

So game shouldn't be over no matter what.
If it's lylo, you should've been at L-1.
If it's not lylo, then either you were lynched and tomorrow's lylo...
...Or you weren't lynched and were at L-1.

Because if today were lylo and that ability still functioned, frankly, my vote wouldn't have mattered. Shiro + Almost50 could lynch you without my help. Or, if you didn't have an alliance which would work, then they'd need my vote and I unvoted so there's no risk of a quickhammer.

In short no matter what you're still alive right now.

But while I'll humor the idea of a scumteam not including you, right now my first focus is in confirming my plan works. If it does, then Mr. "Will go with an autowin plan no matter what" Magna has no reason to refuse outside of stubborn pride at it not having been HIS idea. And we'll do the plan, and I'll revote you after it happens.
If it doesn't, then I'll risk the vote and revote you when I know the plan wouldn't work.
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Post Post #12216 (isolation #645) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:22 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12214, Reasonably Rational wrote:Ummm ... I don't think you need to defend yourself Mastin. The whole idea that Yume lied about you being mod confirmed town to her has no basis on anything, as far as I can tell.
Shiro is alive and has been advocating that stupid idea for DAYS.
randomidget is alive and is the player who was most receptive to it.

So yes.
I absolutely needed that. (Especially if it took one less vote to lynch me. Which I don't actually know.) With me as confirmed town, via Almost50's vouch, there's no room for mislynching me anymore.
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Post Post #12234 (isolation #646) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:53 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12230, Almost50 wrote:I'd need Mastina's view on this: It's a grapes + RR scum team, and it was all a PERFECT scum theater yesterday.
It's not impossible. I've explicitly brought it up; it was Magna who refused to think of the possibility, not me. So you don't need to convince me.

I mean, you do need to convince me, because I'm not convinced grapes is scum, but you don't need to convince me that hard.

I really fucking hate the scenario right now, because I was under the apparently-mistaken assumption the gems wouldn't be able to bubble tonight if they bubbled last night. And right now, as one of only two conftown, with MoI having been released in my opinion prematurely, I'm the only 100% reliable source of planning. randomidget is conftown, but no offense random, you're not exactly a gamebreaker. Magna is. I want to develop a 100% foolproof plan, but I know that I am wont to develop plans which have a glaringly obvious hole which I didn't see but someone else is able to exploit.

In this case, I'm pretty sure no matter what plan of the currently...three or four proposed plans, that there's a risk involved regardless, unless I can figure out how to sift through them and make them not have those flaws. It's a lot of pressure on me that I really wasn't looking forward to, especially since if as I suspect no plan is absolutely flawless...I'm left in a situation where I have to actually sift through nearly 500 pages and actually figure out which of the two choices is scum. (We can get it down to a 50/50 no matter which plan we do and no matter what risk we take. It might be a 50/50 today, it might be a 50/50 during the night, it might be a 50/50 tomorrow, but no matter what regardless of a plan, we've got at least a 50/50. It's just that we're trying to make BETTER than 50/50, and I'm not sure we can get that.)

Also, in terms of plans...the mercy option from the scum, and also the common courtesy option from the scum, would be killing me tonight. That would mean it wouldn't be my choice in any theoretical lylo/mylo tomorrow.
I mean. I'm not relying on mercy. The dick move is killing randomidget, ensuring that the gems lose even if the town wins. (I mean, if scum win, gems loses anyway, but killing the gems ensures the gems loses even if the town wins, and that's a dick move because the gems have contributed more to the gamestate allowing for a town victory than anyone else so robbing them of their victory for petty reasons is...like I said, a dick move. And while I'd certainly hope that the last scum wouldn't be a dick, I can't rely on it.)

But ideally, we win today.
If not, we win tonight.
If not, then not my problem.
And if not, if it becomes my problem, we win tomorrow.
Ideally.

I'm basically trying to cover every angle at the moment, and that's a level of computation which...is a bit difficult, so I hope you can bear with me for a bit. I know that I also need time on my side, to do this work quickly yet also thoroughly (which sucks especially since we're losing three days as of now thanks to the weekend), but the thoroughly is more important than the quickly in making sure we don't fuck things up.

It may be possible to ensure that scum can't win no matter what. I need to run the math on this, and be very careful about it. All the while, I need randomidget to ask grapes a bombardment of questions about every myriad of detail about the facets of grapes's role (everything randomidget can think of), and grapes to have done the same to Varsoon to get clarifications. After a few days of this, and randomidget relaying the answers to me, there are some questions I want to ask specifically if they weren't already answered, but which would be a bad idea for me to ask otherwise (because I don't want to give grapes the answer I'm looking for).

Only if a win isn't 100% possible do we enter into the realm of finding the best choices.

And by the way: regardless of autowin or no autowin, lynching RR today is going to be a part of my basic plan here.
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Post Post #12255 (isolation #647) » Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:06 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12235, Reasonably Rational wrote:I'm not sure why you were pretending it was difficult.
There's a question that I need to ask the mod which I've neglected to do. (A private one.)

But basically, MY plan boiled down, if it works, would be:
  • Unbubble grapes.
    1. grapes triggers his event and takes Shiro out of the game.
      • Lynch your slot.
      • If the game isn't over, randomidget bubbles Almost50.
      • This should win the game no matter what.
    2. grapes refuses to take Shiro out of the game for whatever reason.
      • We lynch grapes.
      • randomidget bubbles your slot.
      • If the game isn't over, in lylo, we've got a choice between Shiro and Almost50. This is the worst-case scenario.
  • if randomidget is too stubborn to realize that unbubbling grapes works, then:
    • We lynch your slot.
    • If the game isn't over, randomidget either bubbles, or doesn't bubble.
      1. randomidget bubbles, then random's bubble choice determines the winner of the game.
      2. randomidget doesn't bubble, and we use a lynch to determine the winner of the game.
Again, my plan is something of a work in progress. THIS is the reason I wanted MoI to give me feedback, to see if there were flaws in this or ways to improve it and whatnot.
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Post Post #12256 (isolation #648) » Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:08 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12236, Randomnamechange wrote:like, if you could read my posts, that would be great. my plan was made by moi.
Yes...it was made by Magna...BEFORE the scum event triggered.
BEFORE we were given a new opportunity off of new information and a new stress count meter.

With you releasing Magna, stress has gone to tragic destiny for the first time in the game--the level required for grapes to trigger his event.

This is NOT something Magna could have anticipated unless he knew about the event, which I'm presuming he didn't.

The situation changed. The plans should have, too.
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Post Post #12257 (isolation #649) » Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:17 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12241, Randomnamechange wrote:damn this is hard. I'm seriously trying to figure out who is scum and i really don't know :/
As a helpful reminder: thanks to tragic destiny being in play, you're not getting a lynch unless all four players agree on the lynch of a fifth.

It takes four to lynch rather than the normal three--in short, everyone except the lynchee unless the lynchee willingly self-votes will be needed for a lynch.

I am telling you that unless grapes is released and refuses to do the event (in which case I'd lynch grapes), the only lynch I will make is Reasonably Rational.

Try to lynch Almost50 or Shiro, and you'll be forcing a no-lynch because it won't happen.

Now you can apparently still bubble. That's your power. You have control there, and have the free will to use it or not use it as you see fit. Though I still want you to go over with grapes whether my plan will work. (If grapes tells you it won't, then don't bother releasing him. grapes if town should have incentive here to not let us waste a mislynch on him. So it's only if grapes tells us it will 100% work that we so much as CONSIDER releasing him.)

If you choose to bubble someone else, your prerogative.
If you choose to release grapes, your choice. (Though I'd prefer that to be an informed choice.)
If you choose to do neither, still your call there. Those? Those are yours to decide.

The lynch for today, however? That's mine.

And I say: we can spend time on this day phase working on plans to get the closest to breaking the game as possible.
We can spend time implementing said plans.
We can also spend time debating on who the last scum is, doing research into, saaaaay, Almost50 vs. Shiro in the unlikely case it comes to being exactly that.

But ultimately, we lynch Reasonably Rational today, because as horribad as Almost50 vs. Shiro would be, Shiro vs. RR or Almost50 vs. RR would be TEN times worse a battle to be fought, so we're not going to even bother trying there.
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Post Post #12261 (isolation #650) » Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:18 pm

Post by mastin2 »

If grapes is scum with Shiro, he can't use the event without it being game over for the scumteam--that would be a refusal.
If grapes is scum yet not with Shiro, him using it clears Shiro and he's left as solo-scum with Shiro alive and one of randomidget/myself also alive, meaning him using it is game over for the scumteam. That, ignoring the possibility of his scumbuddy being lynched before he returns to the game, which would endgame him.

So if grapes is scum, his best and only option is to eat the lynch and confirm himself as scum to the game.

If grapes is town, on the other hand: him using the event is a massive boon to us.
Him not using it causes us to mislynch him as per the risk of the above of him being scum.
Which is why we aren't going to unbubble him until we're absolutely SURE the plan works.
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Post Post #12265 (isolation #651) » Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:17 pm

Post by mastin2 »

If grapes removes conftown from the game and confirms himself as scum in the process: let him have done so. It not only ensures said conftown lives, but confscums him as a result.

Meanwhile, with grapes as confirmed scum before the end of the day, guess what?

We now have information we didn't have before: grapes is confirmed scum, there were two scum alive, and grapes joined the scumteam some time probably circa D3 or D4...meaning we have ALL of grapes's later interactions to better find the scum, and more importantly, others' interactions with grapes.

So given that, given grapes removing conftown and becoming confscum, we're left with three names who could be scum, and a conftown. We lynch one. Depending on circumstances, scum may not be able to function as desired--in short, grapes pulling the stunt is a massive gambit on his part, because it assumes that the town has no more tricks up their sleeve that could potentially fuck them over. For instance, a scum being killed, or a town player being protected from being killed, leading to a gamestate where scum don't endgame the town the following day and have been further narrowed down to a pool where they nearly guaranteed are going to lose.

Also, let me be perfectly clear here: you are getting lynched today.
Every time you try to bring up reason to not follow my plans, it's more reason to lynch you.
Plus, just saying: grapes is town anyway, fuck the haters who say otherwise.

There is NO scenario in which we're lynching Shiro or Almost50 today.
Now, RR. IF you are town. You plan around this. You lay out the best course of action possible, given a lynch on you today.
But it's never going to be Almost50 today. Or Shiro today.
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Post Post #12313 (isolation #652) » Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:05 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12271, Reasonably Rational wrote:Sorry for Triple Post: There's also a way to ensure that we still win even if Grapes is scum and misbehaves when returned to the game. Cross that bridge if we get there tho. Mastin was on the right track but didn't quite follow it all the way through.
Which is, again, why I wanted Magna to talk with, even if only through randomidget.

To put it simply, you're not good enough--aside from the fact that you as scum would have a scum-centric agenda disguised as a town one, there's the fact that you're imperfect yourselves. Now, Magna would be imperfect, too. But four voices working on the issue would've been stronger than three, especially when half would be conftown and would be willing to trust the other half if said other half was placed in a situation where there would be no possible scum agenda attached (i.e., you die today or if not, tonight).

That's my basic stance, here.

You simply can't be trusted with any plan that does not involve your prompt death. Plans which involve you dieing, those I can view from you and know they come without bias, so long as they are the only plans being made by you. Now, I can't necessarily trust them to be perfect plans! You're not perfect. You're good, but not perfect. But I could trust them to be without the scum agenda.

Soyeah, basically:
-You could be scum.
-Even as town, you could overlook something.
-I will listen to you for things which I know can't benefit you as scum...
-And I know that the risk of you overlooking something is lower than the average player...
-But I would still scrutinize it to make absolutely
sure
that the proposed plan would not be either the first or second, that it neither helps a scum!RR nor has a glaringly obvious hole in it.

And I got my answer from Varsoon, by the way--if randomidget has engaged successfully in the dialog with grapes, then the release can proceed because I got the answer I was looking for, meaning that one of my only concerns was taken care of.
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Post Post #12314 (isolation #653) » Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:14 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12274, Almost50 wrote:What if it IS RR+grapes you bonehead?? (Sorry! This one is in good faith, not meant to be an insult). :P
That's why randomidget's plan has a gap in it. It only works a small fraction of the time.

My plan, as far as I can tell, works somewhere around 80-90% of the time. (The small failure chance being grapes as scum not going along, and then being left with a choice.)

Now, I am convinced there's only one scum in the game--but a plan should account for the possibility there's two, and that grapes is one of them.
If there's only one scum, the possible scum are you and RR. I would say RR is more likely scum than you.
If there's two scum, the possible scum increases to include Shiro. I would say Shiro is more likely than you, though which of Shiro/RR it would be, that I wouldn't be able to tell you. As established, I don't think this is the case, but it should still be accounted for, especially to leave everyone happy.

So the plan should, ideally, prove that there's only one scum in the game, clearing Shiro (and grapes)...and then taking out RR, and then taking you out if necessary, though I honestly don't think it will be.

The less a plan accomplishes these objectives, the more inferior that plan would be. Not flipping RR. Not proving there's only one scum. Getting you out earlier than others. Getting Shiro out first, when Shiro cannot be solo-scum. All of these would be bad ideas. So a plan needs to focus on making sure the flips happen and information is gained in certain ways.
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Post Post #12315 (isolation #654) » Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:32 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12278, Reasonably Rational wrote:Since it is clear that our plan isn't well understood:
1.) Release Grapes and he exits with one suspect. According to MoI, they won't return until the beginning of the next episode (this timing is critical to why the plan is 100% win probability).
1a.) If Grapes goes rogue, there's a fall back for that. There's absolutely no upside to addressing it unless he goes rogue because there's no sense in giving him any way to anticipate what we'll do. Grapes going rogue is the worst case scenario but it doesn't take away the win
unless
scum has extra kills, which is a problem in ALL cases, and CANNOT be accounted for. No sense in spending worry on something we can't do fuck all about.
2.) There will be 2 suspects left. Lynch one of them.
2a.) If the game doesn't end with the win, we know that the remaining suspect is scum. Since any two man scum team must contain Grapes and/or Shiro, we would know for sure who is scum at that point.
3.) Random bubbles the last suspect. This presumably resolves before a scum kill because kills resolve last. At that instant, all possible suspects are considered dead for the purposes of win conditions, and therefore Town win condition triggers and gem win condition triggers.
I mean, I already talked it over with the mod--I am pretty sure this plan works. It's my plan, just worded slightly differently, but critical in this is that Shiro is the one bubbled, and you are the one lynched. Almost50 at that point if the last scum can't win because he gets bubbled.

It does rely on grapes being town--but I am willing to bet the game on grapes being town. And if I am wrong, if he scumclaims...well, then that'll be unfortunate, I'll have been wrong, yet at this stage you get the saving grace of having a willing audience to listen to. I consider every angle in there. It SHOULD work. But it requires randomidget's full support, and trust, and also grapes explicitly giving the green light so that when we release him, he EXPLICITLY knows that the event can be triggered. It requires that, and nothing more.

This plan tests the two scum theory (rather, helps disprove it).
This plan gets all possible suspects all out of the game.

Now, the reason for the picks, I'm not sure I should disclose.
But Shiro has VERY good reason to be the one grapes removes.
Beyond that, I'll admit that both RR and Almost50 have reasons why they could have a scum trump card (for instance, a way to be immune to bubbling), but overall I concluded it slightly safer to lynch Reasonably Rational first and bubble Almost50 rather than try the inverse. (This is evident enough in posting. Almost50's posting seems to strongly suggest that if he is scum, he has no defense for the bubble--it hits him, he loses. Whereas, in contrast, RR has suggested multiple times that they should be targeted during the night. This is concerning, as it is a potential indicator of having some sort of method to negate the action. What, exactly, I wouldn't know. But this is a precaution.)

If you are actually town, this should be okay with you, should be understandable to you, and should be acceptable. All it does is require one small leap of faith, in grapes being town and his ability working (which grapes should've verified by now). And there would be contingency plans even if this leap of faith turned out to be in error. There would be plans in place to prevent the scum from winning. So I really do think this is our best way of getting the results we want.
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Post Post #12316 (isolation #655) » Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:49 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12298, Reasonably Rational wrote:I don't believe Varsoon could even tell us when "standard" MYLO was in effect...sorta makes me wonder about why Mastin's power functions in MYLO actually, lol.
As the one who has the vote-related power.

I can actually answer this.

Varsoon won't tell us if the scum have an extra kill that would potentially make the game end a day earlier than normal--he couldn't.

But Varsoon WILL tell us if the scum have the traditional, standard, numbers for mylo. So in this case, 2v4 would be known to be 2v4.

Full disclosure, you were right when you said I was willing to lie about my power as town, though in this case it was a lie by omission. I had an exchange with Almost50 yesterday where I said, "my power would presumably warn us if the scum could endgame us a day earlier than normal, but I'll ask the mod to be sure". Almost50 was concerned about this, and I wanted to address his concerns as proof that grapes wasn't scum.

...I didn't like the mod answer I was provided, where he said he couldn't tell me. I'm not actually looking at the PMs right now, so if I did I could bring up the exact wording. But I'm reasonably sure that what applies to my voting role applies to tragic destiny voting rules: traditional numbers mylo will be noted as such for voting mechanics. (In my case, my role wouldn't function; in this case, Tragic Destiny couldn't function.) Now, I'm not sure that we'd actually have a public announcement that tragic destiny won't work. So we might have to orchestrate a situation where 4/6 players or 3/5 are voting someone (say, grapes), to prove that today's not mylo/lylo if that's a concern.

For instance: we had no notification that grapes took two extra votes to lynch yesterday, in spite of my role working.

I'm not sure if my wording's getting across clearly here.

But basically:
If there's an extra kill in play, V can't tell us.
If there's mylo/lylo in play, Varsoon can and will tell us--now he might not tell us publicly; we might have to find out by experimentation/demonstration. But regardless of whether he tells us publicly or tells us by pragmatically showing it in effect, either way, mylo/lylo will in fact disable voting mechanics.

I went over with Varsoon on this, and I'm basically 100% positive the way my role works is the same as any voting shenanigans works.

THIS much, not a lie. Not a lie, not a lie by omission, just the truth as I understand it. Could be a mistake on my part, I suppose, where I misinterpreted something, where I misread something, but swear to you that as far as I know, this is the truth, and how things actually work.

If need be, you can ask, by going over public vote manipulation roles we've had flipped, like Skybird, or DGB.
Or, fuck! Because Tragic Destiny has been a game mechanic since the beginning of the game, and is a GAME MECHANIC rather than an unflipped role mechanic? You can probably directly asked Varsoon about this and he'll probably answer you because game mechanics aren't something he'd want to keep secret from players; he'd want to answer as honestly as he could.
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Post Post #12317 (isolation #656) » Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:55 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12311, Reasonably Rational wrote:We're down to 96 hours.
Random, in the end the entire grapes thing is entirely up to you. It would be best if you made a decision on what course we should follow with 48 hours or so left, so we can make sure we have time to get our votes where they need to be after you make that call.
Of critical note: I'm not currently voting, and that's because I absolutely need to know whether grapes is being released or not. There's something that I need to do post-grapes-event, but pre-lynch, which is why time is of the essence.

I'm also not around much on the weekends, and my schedule might not align well with those in the rest of the thread, throwing things into chaos and disarray. So we need that call from you.
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Post Post #12321 (isolation #657) » Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:43 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12319, Reasonably Rational wrote:Only Mastin could possibly make a post saying "I have to think about things and figure it out but there must be a way to ensure a win" and
then later
claim ownership of the plan I outlined in the very next post demonstrating that it was not in the least bit hard to work out.
*ahem*

Your plan?
Outlined in .

My plan?

First stage, .
When I learned the gems could bubble, that was refined in .

A full 23 posts and nearly a solid page, not to mention, a full 19 hours earlier than your post.

Who's trying to claim credit for WHOSE plan?
When I said it was my plan but worded only slightly differently.
I meant it was MY FUCKING PLAN worded only slightly differently. You know. The plan that I had already outlined. The plan I had already talked about. The plan that I was crunching math to make sure would work, not to mention asking questions to Varsoon to cover gaps to make sure it would work, the very thing you have COMMENTED ON in fact.

The two are not mutually exclusive. Figuring out a plan with no gaps, and having posted a plan, are not mutually exclusive. I posted the idea. I was working on finding the strengths and weaknesses of all ideas, including my own.

Don't dare try to claim high ground where none exists.
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Post Post #12322 (isolation #658) » Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:01 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12320, Reasonably Rational wrote:Earlier we made the point that Mastin would lie to the town to get her way, because we know Mastin and have played with her and seen her do it. She accused us of character assassination, but now freely admits
she has done so
. It's not character assassination to point out the truth.
It is when you do so with an agenda.

You pointed it out with the aim to make people not listen to me.
If we were scum, and if we had some sort of bubble immunity (as she's trying to suggest as a scare tactic to get her way; her ultimatums should be rejected simply because it's not okay to hold a game hostage and she's tried to do it twice now), that would only result in us being lynched the next day.
Wrong.
grapes removes Shiro.
We lynch Almost50.
You kill me.
You have bubble immunity.
The timing works out that Shiro and grapes, members of the town, only return to the game AFTER there are no town left. Triggering the scum wincon.

This is why you need to die first by the plan: because the risk you hold an ace up your sleeve is higher than the risk that Almost50 holds an ace up his sleeve. As I already explained: his posting makes it fairly abundantly clear that he has no answer for the ideal plan going as scheduled. He has no answer to him being bubbled. He would lose the game.

I fully expect whoever we lynch today to be town.
And I fully expect whoever we bubble to be the scum.

Because, and here's the thing. If you're scum I expect you to have some sort of way to escape the autoloss, but it requires you to not be lynched today.
If Almost50 is scum, I expect you to recognize that he cannot win and therefore submit to being lynched today.

My choice, a binary choice assuming grapes is released and enacts the plan, is really that simple. It comes to what I know of you. You as scum, by your own words, would never propose a plan in which you would automatically lose. So you as scum, proposing to not be today's lynch, tells me that you as scum still have a way to win.

You as town have a way you believe will break the game
regardless of whether you are lynched today or not
.
So you as town have incentive to not be a fucking stubborn asshole and to submit to the autowin which involves your death first.

It's not that difficult to understand.

It is PRECISELY BECAUSE OF YOUR COMPETENCY that I am treating you the way I am. I am absolutely holding a double standard! And that's because I want to win, and I know YOU want to win! So if you're scum, I need to make sure that win is denied to you; if you're town, then we will win together and we can sort out any remaining shit postgame because we'll have won.

If you are scum, you have a way to escape. You have an out, if you avoid the noose. Tell me I'm wrong. Tell me, flat-out tell me to my FACE that you, as scum, do not have an out here. Tell me that you, as scum, would willingly enter into a situation where you automatically lose. You know it's not true, so you know that if you were scum, you'd have an escape route planned. Which means that you, as town, should KNOW that you need to die first.

If you are town, who truly believes we have a foolproof autowin plan. If you are town, then it doesn't matter that you die first--Almost50 still gets bubbled, and we still win the fucking game. If you are town, it doesn't matter what the order is, but you should recognize that if you were scum, the order ABSOLUTELY would matter. And while YOU know your alignment.

*I* do not. So we should go with the order which is safer for the people NOT IN YOUR FUCKING SHOES. And the safer order, the order which has a higher chance of guaranteeing a town win, is lynching you then bubbling Almost50.
One has to wonder, at this point, what is motivating Mastin to behave this way.
One simple factor, and one alone:
Desire to win.
And a drive to try to win every step of the way.

If you can't recognize where I'm coming from.
Then I don't know what to tell you.
Because this has all been clear, my stance from the very beginning.

There is a risk of letting you live, by simple virtue of it being YOU let to live, even if the plan calls for your immediate bubble.
There isn't zero risk in letting Almost50, sure--if he has some way to escape, then we would risk a loss. But his posting has clearly indicated to me that he doesn't have a way to escape; your posting indicates if scum you DO have a way to escape.

And that's why I say I fully expect today to be a mislynch. I fully expect the game to not end today. If you are town, then you'll self-lynch and Almost50, the only possible scum candidate, will be bubbled. If you are scum, then you'll manage to bully your way to where we can't lynch you, and then if as I fear you have an out, you'll exploit it to win.

That's why you need to be today's lynch. That's why you've been my fucking push. It's because you're too damn smart for your own good. It's because there's too many risks in letting you live, and almost none in letting Almost50 (temporarily) live.
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Post Post #12323 (isolation #659) » Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:09 pm

Post by mastin2 »

And, yes. I do in fact know the timing.
I didn't know for sure when I proposed . I hadn't asked Varsoon at the time about the specifics behind the wincon triggers, until after I posted that.
This was made moot by the revelation that randomidget could bubble someone, alleviating the problem--it wouldn't matter if the scum attempted a kill anymore, because they'd be bubbled, and instantly lose. Presumably the bubble would happen before the kill, meaning that the town wouldn't lose. But all the same, I did get that answer.

The scum, if removed, will lose the game.
The town, even if dead for a brief period of time, will lose the game.
The timing works such that without the bubble, we'd have lost by the plan in if mislynching and the scum killing me. I didn't know that at the time of posting, but once I got clarification I did. Yet by the time I got clarification, I knew we now had the bubble available as a resource, removing this weakness from the plan. , or if you prefer, your (same exact plan, worded differently), is the refined plan which ensures we can't lose.

The danger isn't in scum having an extra kill. The extra kill means fuckall, because if they're bubbled before they are killed, then they still lose.
The danger is in scum having immunity to BEING killed (rather, bubbled), because if they're immune to being bubbled, they have a path to victory.

This is not something I wanted to explain, for obvious fucking reasons. Telling the scum how they could win, if they hadn't thought of it, is a horrendously stupid idea, but it shouldn't matter if we release grapes, he does the plan, and we lynch RR, with Almost50 bubbled immediately after that.
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Post Post #12324 (isolation #660) » Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:20 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Like. That's the thing here. I've been doing more research than I've ever done in a game before. I asked Varsoon more questions than I've ever asked a mod before in a game. Whenever he didn't give me a satisfactory answer, I tried a different angle, a different approach, until every question was answered I could think of, and I had all the information I could think of that could possibly end up being relevant.

And while I could have misunderstood things. While I could have thought things over wrong. While I wanted Magna here to look over my stuff to make sure I made no mistakes, because no fucking duh, this is something I've never done before and I'm incredibly prone to error, to miscalculations, I've done my best to coordinate things to the fullest, and used simple judgment calls on whatever little gaps remain.

One of said judgment calls is simple:
  1. Reasonably Rational has agreed to/proposed a plan which, as far as I can tell, leads to a guaranteed town win.
  2. Reasonably Rational, as scum, would never willingly agree to/propose a plan which would actually lead to a guaranteed town win.
  3. Reasonably Rational, if scum, therefore has an out, some loophole in the plan that they can exploit which I can't see.
  4. Almost50 has shown panic at this plan, trying to rant and rave about every possible way to get us to do something else. He rejects it.
  5. Almost50, if scum, would be aware if he could win if the plan was enacted.
  6. Because Almost50 is panicking, this is an indicator that Almost50, if scum, cannot win with the plan enacted.
  7. Thanks to the factors above, the logical conclusion is to lynch Reasonably Rational first, and bubble Almost50.
This is a judgment call I am willing to make, because it follows logic to its natural conclusion: Almost50 can't win by the plan; Reasonably Rational if scum could win by the plan if not lynched; lynch RR first to ensure that neither RR nor Almost50 can win as scum.

The second judgment call I am willing to make is that grapes is town. This is something you, apparently, are also okay with assuming, RR. Shiro is, too. In fact, the only person not okay with it is Almost50. (Or maybe also randomidget.)

From those simple facts, from simple number crunching, running the math, looking at my notes, making basic conclusions, everything says this is the right path.

So that's why I'm going after you: because there's no choice BUT to.
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Post Post #12327 (isolation #661) » Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:49 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12325, Reasonably Rational wrote:You literally made a post (which you conveniently forgot to link to) where you said you couldn't figure out the numbers and weren't sure there was a plan.
Yes, which I said already.
Because saying I'm not sure that what I've said is foolproof...
...And saying I have a plan...
...Are not fucking mutually exclusive.
Your ego was already legendary, but at this point you're making yourself unpleasant to be around.
More character assassination, because Reasonably Rational KNOWS that I don't have an ego. Both heads, though I suppose at least Drixx is less so. I've explained my thought process here, very thoroughly. And exactly what I have gone through. Exactly what steps I've put in. Exactly what my thoughts were. Transparently as much out there, step by step, process by process. Sometimes, I omitted details, because details can be debilitating. Details would include how I have been wracked with guilt this whole time. Details would include how much I wavered. Details would include how much my conviction has been anything short thereof. Details would include how many times I thought grapes could be scum, yet was holding back from saying it publicly, knowing that if I gave those details it would be misconstrued as final proof of why grapes would be scum. Details would show how paranoid I've been. Details would show exactly why I've been conflicted. Details would show why my presence has been sporadic rather than consistent--because I was disappearing in my times of doubt. Because I vanished when I was unsure, only returning when I knew I could stall no longer, in spite of the doubt getting worse rather than better.

So of course I avoid the details. But I give everything short thereof. Outlying the overall picture. Sacrificing specifics for the general idea: "grapes could be scum, but I think he's town for these reasons". Rather than, "grapes could be scum. Or could be town. Or could be scum. I don't know. I see this as town. I see this as scum. I see this as town one moment and scum the next. I guess town?" And applied to every. player. in. the. game.
Why should we be the night bubble in the plan? Because we know we're town and therefore nothing can go wrong in the night in that case.
And why shouldn't you be lynched?
If the plan is foolproof. If the plan is truly solid. You should be willing to be lynched.

And yet, that's the problem.

My problem with you, the whole game, has been a lack of willingness to follow through.

You say you are willing to die.
And then you back out.
You say you can be killed.
But then you make excuses not to.
You say you have a foolproof plan which allows you to die.
But then you try to live even though you should be fully fucking okay dieing because by the given plan
you would win even if lynched!


Yet you insist, even now, even after I was clear. Even after I was coldly, precisely logical.
Even when I laid out in crystal clear detail, short, succinct, and precise, exactly why you need to be lynched, you're refusing to accept what I have said as having any validity.

You are refusing to put yourself in the shoes of others.
You are refusing to think of anyone but yourself.
You are refusing to place yourself in danger. You say you are! You say you're willing to die! But then you BACK OUT AND REFUSE TO SHOW IT.

And that's why I've been thinking you're scum!

You're not being reasonable.
You're not being rational.

You're violating every principle that I associate with a town!RR.
And you have been for days.
Literally fucking days, you've been trying to wiggle out of a lynch every step of the way.
You've kept the town from going down the path confirmed town have suggested.

And
when you are UNCONFIRMED
, have been the one dictating the actions of the game.
You, plus Almost50, directed Fuzzy to shoot at farside. Conftown wanted that shot on one of you/Almost50. (AND GEE LOOK AT US NOW, THE LAST SCUM IS BEING DISCUSSED AS ONE OF YOU/ALMOST50; WOULDN'T IT BE AMAZING IF ONE OF YOU WERE DEAD INSTEAD OF FARSIDE?!?)
You directly contributed to the lynch on Fuzzy, instead of a lynch on you.
And now, when you are STILL UNCONFIRMED.
You are resisting the path, YET AGAIN, where a town victory is ensured.

By your own fucking plan, the town wins by lynching you!

It's true by my words, yes, but also by your own.

So why the fuck do you insist we do otherwise?

The ONLY reason I can think of is that you, as scum, have an out that you can exploit.
Because as town, you'd be confident. You'd even be arrogant, to some degree! You'd have caution about the plan, sure, but once you had ensured it was truly foolproof, you would enact it all the same. You'd be willing to risk your lives, and back that up with ACTIONS rather than WORDS.

I have every reason to be pissed at you if you're town.
But I'm praying to the everfuckingloving god that this is you as scum because the amount of shit you've put me through is unreal.
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Post Post #12328 (isolation #662) » Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:53 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12326, Reasonably Rational wrote:We do NOT know whether the event Grapes claims would also count in that way, and because Grapes is a suspect we cannot get an answer about that from him that we can trust to be accurate.
Hey, geniuses.

Did it occur to you that maybe, just maybe, I had already asked Varsoon about this?

I did.

In fact I thought of it a long time ago. From the MOMENT I thought of releasing grapes so he could enact his plan, I noted this.

And guess what?

Varsoon can tell us if they count as dead.

I know this because Varsoon promised me we could.
And this is no lie. This is not something I say with an objective. This is me, having held a card to my chest which benefitted nobody but the scum to know before it became relevant, but oh well, you pushed me so here the fuck it is spelled out explicitly to you.
If grapes's power counts as being dead, we do the plan as per what we wanted to do.
If grapes's power doesn't count as being dead, then randomidget doesn't bubble during the night but otherwise the plan remains exactly the same. Shiro and grapes are taken out, and we lynch one of you/Almost50. This is also why time is of the essence in releasing grapes:
We can only get an answer from Varsoon AFTER the event is triggered, and it makes a difference in whether randomidget does or does not bubble. But regardless of bubble, we lynch one of you/Almost50.
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Post Post #12329 (isolation #663) » Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:13 pm

Post by mastin2 »

And yes right now I have lost my cool, and shouldn't be posting.

But I am, because I can't leave the thread anymore.
I literally can't.

The thing is that you claim I've strongarmed the town.
You claim I've forced things on the town.

But every step of the way, I've lost those battles.

And guess what?

Every time, I've been shown to have been in the right to have held the belief I did.
Every time that I've stood my ground, I can say, proudly, "It was right. No, not right in principle even if wrong in practice. It was fucking right because
it was right
."
The times I've been stubborn?

On SirCakez. On TWIE. On farside. I was getting there on Shadow_step. And I was there on grapes.
SirCakez was scum. TWIE was scum. farside was town. Shadow_step was scum. And now, the main gamebreaking plan we have relies on grapes being town, exactly like I fucking said he was.

Time and time again, I have been shown right. When people followed me, it has led to scum deaths. When people ignored me, it has led to the death of town players.

Time and time again, you have clung to every possible edge. You tried to push away from TWIE. You tried HARDCORE to push farside. You tried--and succeeded--in extending the life of Shadow_step. You fought to have grapes die instead of you, and then let Fuzzy die in your place. You have, consistently, taken the stance most convenient to the scum. It's been there the whole fucking game.

And if you were town!
If you were actually fucking town.
You would know how pissed I am. You would know how much you have pushed me. You would recognize exactly where I am coming from. You would know that I have valid points. You would know that I have felt ignored. You would know all of this, and you would recognize that objectively you have been a much worse player in the game overall than most of the others here. Your main contribution was your event ability. You say you've done more than that. But everything you've done except for that (save SirCakez I suppose) has been a failure. And not once have you taken the blame for the failures.
Not being confirmed town? That was Titus's fault partially for stealing your power, and partially farside's. The alliance with Titus not going according to plan? farside's fault. farside not being scum and not being malevolent third party? farside's fault. The gems being questioned by you? Yume's fault. Shadow_step not being vigged? Fuzzy's fault. farside being vigged instead of Almost50/RR? Fuzzy's fault, or if not, Almost50's.

You have shifted blame the whole game, never once taking accountability for ANYTHING you have done. I recognize my failures this game--Mathblade was a major one. That was my fault largely. Then there was SnarkySnowman, which was mostly my fault, too. Creature and kraska? Fuck, I blame myself for those more than any other player does. But you? You don't.

I've made plans this whole game--most have worked; some didn't. I know which ones worked, but I also know which ones didn't and accept that the ones which didn't were on me.
You've made plans this whole game--none have worked. NONE. Name one which did and which actually was pro-town in practice. I'm not talking in theory. Vigging farside was "a good plan in theory!" but in practice wasn't. Can you name one thing you've done, outside the Beachapalooza event (and even then you assign blame to Titus for that not working as intended), which went according to your plan, which HELPED the town, unambiguously HELPED the town with no ifs ands or buts? Everything you've done has resulted in failure. And while that's unusual, we all have bad games. Yet you have gone on to refuse responsibility. You don't want to be held accountable for your part in things not going the way they were "supposed to" go.

That level of irresponsibility.
That level of self-centered thinking.
That level of contradictions, of claiming to be selfish but never EVER showing it in your actions.

Is the issue at hand.

And I won't apologize for calling you scum for it. Because calling you scum for doing those things is preferable to me to the alternative, which would be that you'd actually act that atrociously as town.
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Post Post #12330 (isolation #664) » Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:22 pm

Post by mastin2 »

And it's really fucking simple.

Really simple.

It's not some complex thought.

Almost50, if scum, has demonstrated today that if we enact the plan, he cannot win. He has no winning play. He auto-loses. This is clear enough in his posting, about how he resists the plan so strongly. After all...if he had a way to win, and he didn't even have to do anything, wouldn't he...you know...actually do that? Because if Almost50 can win by having you be lynched, and grapes trigger his event and remove Shiro, then Almost50 would do exactly that.

Almost50 can therefore, 100% safely, be bubbled, by using the plan.

You, if scum, have demonstrated today that if we enact the plan, you have a way to escape it. You would never allow yourself to willingly be trapped in an auto-loss. But winning requires that you not be lynched. So you fight to say: "We're fine being bubbled, but not being lynched". Because even though they should be interchangeable, scum with a way out would not win if lynched, but would win if they had a way out.

That alone!
That reason, by itself, alone, would be enough reason for you to be the lynch.

If Almost50 is scum, he cannot win.
If you are town, YOU SHOULD KNOW HE CANNOT WIN, and be okay with being lynched as a result.
If you are scum, you have a way to win, but it relies on you not being lynched.

If you are town, you should know that while YOU know you are town, randomidget and I do not, and we have to consider the possibility that you are scum.
So if you are town, and given that you know Almost50 can't win if he's scum, the conclusion would be that you're okay with being lynched.

Yet you continue to resist.
You continue to fight.

With every step of the way, you struggle against the idea of your death.

Why is your life so important?

If the game is automatically won even if you die, it shouldn't be. Yet you continue to treat it as if it is.
Which continues to give me the same. fucking. impression. I've had since gamestart, that you have reason to live beyond what would be town.
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Post Post #12331 (isolation #665) » Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:24 pm

Post by mastin2 »

And while I should technically wait for randomidget to come unbubble grapes to do this.
I should technically wait for grapes to bubble Shiro before I do this.
I should technically wait to enact this, because of the possibilities.

At this stage it needs to be cast to make my point clear.

VOTE: Reasonably Rational.
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Post Post #12333 (isolation #666) » Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:57 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Like.
If you're town go blacklist me if you'd like.
That'd be your call. If you think that what I've done is beyond acceptable, I'll gladly stop playing with you because of the shit you've done here.

I know that I have trouble communicating.
I know that concepts I try to convey aren't always clear.
I know that I've kept some details from people at points.
I know that the dead thread's the only place who's seen my unadulterated thought process, about how much I've struggled here.
About how hard I've fought to come to the conclusions I have.
About how I've considered every angle.
I know they're the only ones who right now can empathize with me.

But I also know that I am in the right, here.
I've been called lots of names.
I've had my points shot down or avoided every step of the way.

Yet I made the call DAYS ago, gamedays ago, that I was willing to accept the consequences of all my actions. All of them. Singlehandedly costed the town the game? I'd take it. Literally half the game blacklisting me? I'd take it. People think my points crossed a line? I'd accept their criticism. People think my stubbornness was anti-town? Sure, I'd take that. I'd accept that everything I've done was full of faults, and then some. I'd deserve the hate. I'd encourage it. It'd be my preference, to have nothing less than the ire of everyone I wronged with my play.

Can you make so much of a FRACTION of those claims? If you're scum, I know the answer is yes, because your alignment is reason enough to justify basically all of what you've done. Everything you'd have done would be to further a scum agenda, push closer to a scum win. And you know what? You'd feel sorry for it by now. You'd know that you've pushed things, and feel terrible that in order to win the game you'd have to do more, but you'd go doing them anyway. Of course, you couldn't admit as much to the game thread because you'd be admitting your alignment in the process.

Yet if you're town, then you should have the empathy to know what I see in you. You've consistently shown you do not.

When I've looked at MoI's point of view, I've understood it. I never gave up working with him, even after his death urging randomidget to hold off on releasing him. When I talk to randomidget, I know that he thinks you're town and I know that he was working with MoI and I know that Magna holds me in very low regards (basically seeing me as the scum of the earth), which would of course influence randomidget's view of me. Not to mention randomidget's game history with me while not extensive doesn't leave him any reason to think I should be followed, that my plan would actually be worth it, that I know what I'm doing.

When I look at Almost50, I know he sees me as even more insane than he is. (I know he sees himself as crazy, so I know exactly what "crazier than Almost50" entails to him.) I know that he sees me as conftown, but doesn't value my opinion. There's so much I wish I had the guts to say to him, to get him to maybe listen to so much of a fraction of what I'm saying. I know he sees things differently. And I see him seeing things in an unusual way, feeling frustrated nobody believes him, and reacting out of anger, even panic at the thought of things going against him.

When I look at you, there's a fundamental problem. When I look at what I see from you, I can maybe see you thinking I've gone off the rails. I can maybe see you think I've crossed lines. I can maybe see you thinking I'm hard in tunnel mode. When I look at what I see from you, I can maybe see you thinking that there were a lot of mistakes made by the town, that things didn't go according to your plan. I can see you genuinely, as town, thinking you have tried to help the town. I can see you legitimately feeling frustration that things haven't worked out, that things keep on going wrong, and that you've been held as suspicious in spite of all your efforts. All of that I can see, because I know how to empathize with players.

But the problem is, it's not what I see that's the problem. It's what I DON'T see. If you were town, I'd expect to see the empathy I am displaying returned in at least some degree. Let's call it "sympathy". Because sympathy is basically defined as being "a person not empathetic, but who is still capable of understanding where people come from". Very bad definition, I know, I'm winging this post and not putting time into it beyond that it takes to type. If you were sympathetic: you would analyze your own play and realize how flawed it has been. You wouldn't be as emo as I am about it, sure, yes! You don't have to hate yourself for what you have done. Sympathy, rather than empathy.

But you'd still acknowledge, at least objectively: yes you have done wrong this game. Yes, you haven't been a beacon of goodness. And yes, some things this game have been your fault, not the faults of others. You would understand where I am coming from, in having felt my suspicion on you. You would know that I was not baseless in my accusations. You would know that I had good reason to feel the way I would.

You would consider what I have put forward.

Yet consistently, you've rejected and resisted every step of the way.

When players have put forth their ideas, I've listened and explained why I will do that, or why I don't want that done. I have laid out clear reasons why I prefer your lynch to Almost50's. I have laid out my problems with the plan randomidget has, namely, it's not thorough/meticulous enough to ensure a town win. I've shown you why I don't think Almost50 needs to be lynched today, and endless number of times I've explained why I have you as someone I am suspicious of.

I hold your game in tremendous respect--I think your scumgame is superb, and I am intensely afraid of it, to the point where I think you need to die today.
I hold your towngame with tremendous respect--which is why seeing flagrant disregard for my opinions, which you should be able to understand, is something I don't see coming from you as town.

That's where I'm coming from.
This isn't something hard to understand.
This isn't something I could possibly have miscommunicated.
This isn't something I could be ambiguous on.

And yet, you continue to act as if you don't understand these issues I have with you. You continue to act as if I have nothing on you. You act as if my issue surely must be personal by this stage because of how much aggression I've given, how much I have pushed you. Yet that goes against what you should know of me. It goes against what you should understand from me.

I am seeing you as scum.
I am seeing you as pushing a way to win as scum.

And I've told you exactly what you needed to do in order to show me wrong.
Yet consistently, rather than do those things, you continue to put me down at every turn. You continue to push me as someone who has no valid points. Who is crazy. Who has lost her essence. Instead of showing me you're town, you're trying to show OTHER PLAYERS that I am wrong.
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Post Post #12334 (isolation #667) » Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:22 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12332, Reasonably Rational wrote:And why would I take your word for anything given that: 1.) You're a self-admitted liar, in this game, multiple times
Case'n'point, this post.

I've lied by omission.

I've lied, by not telling the full truth.

But those were small lies, and not ones where I was actively deliberately hiding something. If I had been asked to reveal those facts, I'd have swallowed my pride and done so.

That you would try to paint me as a manipulative bitch who would tell a lie that would frankly GET ME FUCKING BANNED FROM PLAYING MAFIA is exactly why I think you're scum. That goes beyond what you would
ever
think if you were actually town. I said I lied by omission. That means I lied by not telling every thought I ever had, and not revealing every dialog I've had with Varsoon. You know who does this?

Literally every town player who doesn't claim the first post they make.
As in, literally every player in every game ever does this same fucking thing, and yet you're blowing it out of proportion. You're trying to paint this thing that every player inherently does as part of the game of mafia, selectively revealing the truth and holding onto sensitive information which causes more harm than good, as if it's a sin against humanity when you KNOW better than that.
a.) You said, in this game, that you deserved a scummy for this game
That wasn't serious and never once did I give the indication it was. I was saying that in exasperation. In frustration. In flat-out anger, lashing out at how nobody was listening to me. No shit that wasn't a serious comment.
b.) Your signature links to and "academy" of how to "properly" play mafia
And this crosses a line you should never cross regardless of your alignment.

You KNOW that I take pride in theory work.
That it's the one fucking thing I can say I don't suck at. It's the one area of the site I always enjoy. It's the only place where I will never feel as if I haven't fucked things up. I can have my townplay go to shit. I have watched my scumgame burn and cry. I recognize my faults more than any other player.

But the ONE thing I am good at.
Is at teaching.
I've said it before, that I'm the Waver Velvet of mafia games:
I know the "perfect running form" players can take, but I, myself, personally have weak legs. I can't perform my own advice. The first fucking thing I tell people is "Do as I say, not as I do", with the implication that what I
say
is better than what I actually pragmatically am capable of doing.

I am good at teaching. But being a good teacher doesn't mean I am the best town player on the site, or the best scum player on the site. What the academy is, is effectively me as a fucking IC, Inexperience Challenged player. Do you expect a quality of play from an IC FAR above site standard? Fuck no, ICs are just players who're there to teach and my academy is the same exact principle. (I mean maybe you could argue that ICs
should
be held to a higher standard of play, but no, they mostly aren't. They're just players, who chose to teach. Nothing more.)
You said yourself that you have no idea what to do once you know for sure we're town.
You keep on bringing this up as if it's a holy bible of what I've said, as if it's something that had only one meaning and would apply to the whole game thereafter. But I've already explained why this isn't the case. The exact words I can't recall, but suffice to say: you keep saying this, bringing that up. Yet you've refused to address that when I said that, it wasn't meant to be nothing ever. You flipping town would've been a hard reset. At the time, I was trying to get MoI to go with me onto lynching you. And I was willing to bargain with him. If I was wrong, I was willing to put VERY heavy support into his plans, because I'd have been wrong when he wasn't.

And then I did work. I continued scumhunting. I put more. And more. And more and more and more and more work and effort into the game. I considered even more you were town. Yet the work I kept putting in, soft reset after soft reset, kept pointing back to you being scum. I kept giving you outs. I kept giving you ways to show me you were town outside of a lynch. And I fixed the problem. I gained a clear hierarchy. You've pretended that I've remained the same in my push, that it's just you. Just you, nothing else. Yet I've given time and effort to everyone--grapes, Shiro, Almost50. All of them.
That alone is reason enough for us to prefer that if the game doesn't end and the reason for that is because the event Grapes has does not count for triggering win conditions
The thing you fail to consider is this:

If grapes does his event, then we can ask Varsoon if it counts as a commute or a kill BEFORE THE LYNCH.
And we can adjust accordingly.
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Post Post #12336 (isolation #668) » Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:13 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12335, Reasonably Rational wrote:
HERE'S THE THING:
There doesn't need to BE any blame because we've freaking handed the game a 100% win probability plan
So why the fuck are you so opposed to being lynched, when by the 100% win plan, you being lynched still results in a town win?

That's my issue.

But aside from that.

Fuck my reads.
Throw them out. I mean, I have a scumread on you anyway. But you can ignore my reads.

It doesn't matter if my read on you is right or wrong.

Lynching you is a simple precaution.

Almost50 has made it as clear as day that he, if he is scum (and that's an IF), cannot win this game with us enacting the plan. This means he, if he is scum, has no countermeasure to it. Meaning he can be safely bubbled. We can do this, 100% safely and reliably.

You have made every effort to resist being lynched. This implies you have some reason to not be lynched, which runs contrary to your stated "we have this guaranteed win".
This is made worse by the fact that, by your own words, you as scum would not propose a scenario in which you as scum could not possibly win. So that means that if you are scum, with Shiro and grapes out of the game and Almost50 lynched, you have a method of winning the game, because if you didn't, you wouldn't be okay with this plan.

You might not be scum, sure. But while YOU know this. randomidget and I both do not. So lynching you first is a precaution. It costs the town nothing; we still fucking win. It deals with a potential problem before it exists. And yet, vice-versa, there's the risk. We have to assume you are town, because if you are scum then letting you live results in a scum win.

The thing is you keep saying I'm the one being irrational here.
Yet you're the one who continues to not address this simple plan. This simple truth: if we lynch you, we should still win.
So why the fuck is lynching you some sort of taboo?

Why the fuck are you doing the one thing which you would do as scum? (Avoid getting lynched.)
Actually sit down and put your skill to work.
Yeah.
I have been.

You know how many fucking hours I've poured into this?

Do you know how many times I crunched the numbers?

How many angles I've pursued?

How many times I've assessed the play here?

And yet, how many times I keep consistently seeing you pulling a scummy-as-fuck stance of "WE MUST LIVE", running contrary to what I know from you? You're asking me to do something I've done.
Not once.
Not twice.
Not even half a dozen times.
Ten. Twenty. Maybe more times, I've done this exercise. At the computer explicitly. Away from it entirely. I've poured it over, and the game not only makes more sense with you as scum, not only do you not make sense playing this way as town, but also everyone else has more reason to be town than you do.

Yet again, all of this is irrelevant.

I asked you a question.
Would you, as scum, propose a plan which you know would lead to your loss?

You know the answer.
So given this.
If our situations were reversed, if this player who you knew wouldn't propose a plan leading to their loss proposed a foolproof plan, would you just blindly accept them as town?


You can't say yes. Because fuck no. You'd test them. You'd put their claims to the test. If their plan was truly foolproof,
they would be willing to die as part of it
.
So you would ask them to die.

And that's what I've done.
Again, fuck the scumread. The scumread's not as invalid as you paint it to be, but it's not even relevant to the issue.

I want you lynched because it's safer.

If you're so prideful that you think your plan is foolproof: prove it by letting yourself be the lynch.

And at that point, it's impossible to fuck up.
You say you're worried that we have some special ability to avoid being bubbled or some crap like that. The thing is, Titus made us claim everything about our role explicitly, and then STOLE it as a way to check us, and our honesty was a big part of why she trusted us.
True enough.

What's to stop you from having a scum event, though?

Almost50, with his freakout, if he is scum, has made it clear enough that HE does not have one.
You might not have your role anymore thanks to Titus, but what about FACTIONAL abilities? Can you say that there's no possibility you have an event like, oh, saaaaaaaaaaay...the one we just fucking had today? One which could do something like, just to give one potential possibility, prevent gems from actioning? (I know that's probably not a scum ability, but I'm talking about things along those lines.)

There's literally dozens of ways which could force randomidget's bubble to fail. All it takes is one of them for a scum-you to win. And your posts ooze this confidence that you can win, so IF you are scum, then yes you fucking have that ability to foil the bubbling.

Basically, there's a cognitive dissonance of sorts.
Almost50 is freaking out--if he is scum, this is because he can't win. So we can let him live.
You are confident in victory--if you are scum, this is because you have a way to win. If you are town, you should be proud enough to let yourself be lynched. Yet because you're refusing to be lynched when we have an autowin, it gives the impression you're in the former (scum with path to victory) rather than the latter.

Also yes I was frantic and the PM I sent to Varsoon will show that postgame but I'm a little bit better now.
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Post Post #12338 (isolation #669) » Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:31 pm

Post by mastin2 »

I absolutely can argue it both ways, and here's why:
I am assuming there is only one scum.
If that scum is Almost50, his posts have demonstrated he has nothing capable of stopping the autowin--no personal power, and no factional power.
If that scum is you, your posts have demonstrated you HAVE something capable of turning the autowin for the town into an autowin for the scum--while this couldn't be a personal power, it could be a factional power.

This is off of GAME POSTS and doing BASIC TONALITY READING. Which give the answer.
If Almost50 is town and you are scum, then he is panicking because he thinks you're going to win, and you're calm because he'd be fucking right--you'd have a way to win. Ergo, a way to prevent yourself from being bubbled.
If Almost50 is scum and you are town, then he is panicking because he has no way of stopping the autowin.

And you keep pushing the idea that scum will win with an extra kill. No, they don't. Scum win with the ability to stop the bubble. Extra killing power doesn't matter. After a lynch, there's one town player left, so it doesn't take two kills for the scum to win. It only takes the one. The player grapes removes, frankly, is irrelevant, because the game ends before D11. Either randomidget bubbles the last scum, meaning town wins, or scum counter the bubble, kill me, and endgame the town, meaning scum win.

And Almost50 has made it clear that he has no method of countering the bubble, whereas you if you are scum...explicitly would have some means to do so, else you wouldn't propose the plan which would be a guaranteed loss for your faction.

And yes grapes going rogue is "bridge cross when we get there"; I know that much.
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Post Post #12341 (isolation #670) » Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:51 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Given that Varsoon's last post was on Tuesday, a full four days ago, and given the delay in how long it takes to release grapes given this, I think we would be within our rights to ask for one.

Mod: can we have a deadline extension?

V's normally pretty accommodating for things like this, especially if he thinks that he himself could in any way be partially responsible for it.
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Post Post #12356 (isolation #671) » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:36 am

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12347, Varsoon wrote:Deadline[/b]: (expired on 2017-01-24 05:00:00)
I will be around all 8 of those hours.
But if grapes fails to show up and trigger his event within the next 6, I'm lynching him. grapes returned to the game over 24 hours ago.
Deadline is 36 hours from his return--plenty of time to have come back, especially if he was paying attention and knew he was coming back.

So: (expired on 2017-01-23 22:36:43) <--Everyone, be here at that time. At that time, we lynch grapes if he fails to trigger his event. If grapes does trigger his event, we lynch elsewhere, but we all need to be online for it.
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Post Post #12364 (isolation #672) » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:14 pm

Post by mastin2 »

VOTE: grapes.
Someone didn't show up.
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Post Post #12365 (isolation #673) » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:15 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Oh.
Uh.
Awkwardly enough, it turns out that grapes hasn't been on the site for days.
We're talking, "if I didn't know grapes was coming back, would call this a siteflake" levels of inactive.
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Post Post #12375 (isolation #674) » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:56 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12347, Varsoon wrote:Deadline[/b]: (expired on 2017-01-24 05:00:00)
If we want to do something...now would be the time.
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Post Post #12384 (isolation #675) » Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:12 am

Post by mastin2 »

Let's try the most direct approach first.
In post 12381, Varsoon wrote:
The Climax Event "I CAN'T GET DISTRACTED, I'VE GOT TO HOLD US DOWN WITH THE WEIGHT OF YOUR PLANET'S OCEAN!" has resolved with the following Effect:
:right: Grapes and Almost50 have been removed from the game for the duration of Episode 11.
Mod:
When you say 'removed from the game', do you mean "commuted", or "considered dead"?
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Post Post #12385 (isolation #676) » Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:17 am

Post by mastin2 »

I mean, for you two it doesn't matter that much. You get to crossvote; I get to decide.

But how much work I do depends on how obtuse V feels like being. :P
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Post Post #12386 (isolation #677) » Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:39 am

Post by mastin2 »

As per Varsoon:
In post 9107, Varsoon wrote:
EVENT:
A Trap for Clods

EPISODE EVENT: Exposition Only--Trigger any time a player successfully allies with you.
PRIORITY: 2
REQUIREMENTS: +2 Stress or higher.
Tied to the Flavor of the episode "Friend Ship."
You may immediately (privately) end your alliance to cause all players allied with you to publicly be removed from the game for an entire Episode.
You may privately decide to kill a single player that is removed in this way. They will die upon returning to the game.
In post 11480, Varsoon wrote:
The Event, "BACK TO THE MOON" has been triggered.
:right: All members of the Crystal Gems Faction are effectively removed from the game during the Climax Phase.
:right: They will return to the game at the start of the next Episode.
These events counted as commutes, not 'removed from the game'. Yes I did ask.
In post 9106, Varsoon wrote:
Sorry I've been gone so long, but you know how the music biz can be, r-i-i-ight?

Using this ability causes you to abandon your alliance, immediately ending it.
You will also remove yourself from the game for the current and the following Episode.
In post 8591, Varsoon wrote:
EVENT:
The Breaking Point

EPISODE EVENT: Exposition Only--Activate this ability during the Climax Phase.
PRIORITY: 2
REQUIREMENTS: You may only activate this ability at +2 or higher Stress.
Flavor is tied to the Episode, "Bismuth."
The following information will be made publicly known:
During the Exposition of this Event, in addition for voting for a lynch all players may now also vote for a player to 'Shatter'.
This votecount follows the same voting rules that normal voting does.
If a majority vote is reached on the 'Shatter' vote, the voted player will be killed and only their alignment will flip. The Exposition phase will continue. One Stress will be added, towards Tragic Destiny.
2 Stress is subtracted, moving towards Slice of Life.
The following information is private and only known to you:
If a majority vote is not reached on the 'Shatter' vote, you are removed from the game for the following two Exposition phases.
In post 3226, Varsoon wrote:Firebringer has been removed from the game as a part of an effect. This will not cause the stress to change.
^These count as being dead.

They both use the same wording: 'removed from the game'.
As a result, it's impossible to tell the difference between them without Varsoon clearing it up, and he should be able to. If not publicly then at least privately because he told me this much via PM so he should be willing to tell us about that ability. (I did ask, and it counts as resolved; we can ask about any resolved/flipped abilities.)
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Post Post #12387 (isolation #678) » Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:42 am

Post by mastin2 »

In post 0, Varsoon wrote:
THOSE WHO STILL FIGHT (ALIVE):
Spoiler:
Reasonably Rational (Cerberus v666 + Drixx)
mastin2
Shiro

THOSE LOST IN THE MAELSTROM (DEAD):
Spoiler:
SirCakez was lynched during Episode 1. He was
Doc
, aligned with the
Threats to Earth
.
Mathblade was lynched during Episode 2. They were
Lars
, aligned with the
Earth
.
Klingoncelt was killed during Episode 2's climax phase. They were
Amethyst
, aligned with
the Crystal Gems
.
Yume was killed during Episode 3's exposition phase. They were
Steven
, aligned with
the Crystal Gems.

DrippingGoofball was lynched during Episode 3. They were
Jasper
, aligned with the
Threats to Earth
.
Not Chara was killed during Episode 3's climax phase.
Firebringer was killed during Episode 3's climax phase. They were
Mr Smiley
, aligned with the
Earth
.
Skybird was killed during Episode 4's exposition phase. They were
Eyeball
, aligned with the
Threats to Earth
.
SnarkySnowman was lynched during Episode 4's exposition phase. He was
Marty
, aligned with the
Earth
.
Titus was killed during Episode 4's climax phase. She was
Onion
, aligned with the
Earth
.
McMenno was killed during Episode 4's climax phase. He was
Kiki
, aligned with the
Earth
.
Xkfyu was killed during Episode 4's climax phase. He was
Peridot
, aligned with
the Crystal Gems.

TheWayItEnds was lynched during Episode 5's exposition phase. He was
Navy
, aligned with the
Threats to Earth
.
Kraska77 was lynched during Episode 6's exposition phase. She was
Mayor Dewey
, aligned with the
Earth
.
Creature was lynched during Episode 7's exposition phase. He was
Ronaldo
, aligned with the
Earth
.
Shadow_Step was lynched during Episode 8's exposition phase. He was
Leggy
, aligned with the
Threats to Earth
.
Farside22 was killed during Episode 8's climax phase. She was
Kevin
, aligned with the
Earth
.
Thefuzzylogic99 was lynched during Episode 9's exposition phase. He was
Watermelon Steven
, aligned with the
Earth
.
MagnaofIllusion was killed during Episode 9's climax phase. He was
Garnet
, aligned with
the Crystal Gems.

No one was lynched on Episode 10's Exposition phase.
Randomidget was killed during Episode 10's climax phase. He was
Pearl
, aligned with
the Crystal Gems.

Grapes was removed from the game during Episode 10's climax phase.
Almost50 was removed from the game during Episode 10's climax phase.
Actually, the answer might just be in here. When the Crystal Gems commuted, they weren't removed from the playerlist.
I need to remember if Skybird was removed from the playerlist--if she wasn't, then the fact that grapes and Almost50 were removed would heavily indicate that they count as dead.
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Post Post #12388 (isolation #679) » Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:44 am

Post by mastin2 »

Wouldn't hurt to ask that question, either.
Mod: during the brief time where Skybird was removed from the game, was she listed in 'alive', or 'dead'?
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Post Post #12389 (isolation #680) » Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:48 am

Post by mastin2 »

Of course, Reasonably Rational's smart enough to know exactly why I'm asking the questions I am, here.
Even though I'm getting more and more certain of the answer.

I'll wait for V to respond to make sure.
If he wants to be stubborn/inconsistent, I'll try to find a way to get a wording where he actually will answer, because there should be one and this is important.

But just for those following along, while unfortunately thanks to that dick move the gems can't win the game anymore...the town may have been handed the victory on a silver platter.
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Post Post #12394 (isolation #681) » Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:02 am

Post by mastin2 »

Well shit.
That actually complicates things.
I was hoping that it counted as being dead.

Regardless, while I'm like 90% sure that 'counting as commuting' therefore means that there's still gonna be town alive no matter what, instead of having one or two names to analyze, I have four.

Why four, you ask?
Because if there's two scum, it could be any combination of the players. Literally any combination.

If the scumteam is Almost50 and grapes, us lynching today loses the game.
If the scumteam is Shiro and grapes, or Shiro and Almost50, then us no-lynching, combined with Shiro nightkilling me, loses us the game.
If the scumteam is RR and grapes, or RR and Almost50, then us no-lynching, combined with RR nightkilling me, loses us the game.
If we mislynch today in a two-man scumteam, we lose the game.
And if we no-lynch, we lose to a two-man team unless it's grapes-Almost50.

I thought randomidget cleared this with grapes before-hand, and I thought I was explicit to not release grapes unless grapes specifically said that the event counted as dead.

Now!
The math changes if there's only one scum left alive.
If there's only one scum left alive, the possible scum are Reasonably Rational and Almost50. In that case, we'd lynch RR, there'd be no nightkill, and tomorrow we'd lynch Almost50.

And therein lies the dilemma. Two scum alive, I'd actually put forth the argument Reasonably Rational would be town at this point. Shiro's posting has been pretty scumfucktastic, and feels like scum who knows they've been cleared and have an easy mislynch on hand. But Almost50 remains a scum candidate even then.
One scum alive, and the only possibilities are Reasonably Rational and Almost50. We can't lynch Almost50, but we can lynch RR now and lynch Almost50 when he returns to the game. RR suggested some sketchy shit, including the idea of not bubbling last night. (If randomidget had bubbled Almost50 or RR, they'd be cleared of being solo-scum. There'd be the risk of a Shiro-grapes scumteam winning, but in any other scumteam, the scum would be restricted.)

Absolutely promise that I'm going to mull things over. This was a bit of a worst-case scenario on my part. Having grapes's action count as a commute when triggered was something I accounted for...IF he used it yesterday. IF he used it yesterday, then it wouldn't matter. I had a plan built around it. Having it count as a commute when triggered TODAY, on the other hand, not so much. It needed to count as being dead.
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Post Post #12395 (isolation #682) » Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:33 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Okay, so I laid out my full thought process to the dead thread, but basically,
We've got this issue here, of Shiro vs. RR, with a darkhorse candidate of a no-lynch.
...But:
I think framing this as Shiro vs. RR vs. No-lynch is a mistake.

Instead, I'm thinking of framing this as what they represent.

A no-lynch represents leaving the game to chance: an utter cast of the dice. It is random, and tells us almost nothing.
If there are two scum alive including one of Shiro/RR, we lose.
If there is only one scum, then nobody dies. (Shiro/grapes can't be solo-scum. Almost50 is indisposed. RR's not stupid enough to kill when it'd make them confscum.)
If there are two scum and they are grapes/Almost50, then nobody dies.
As a result, we either lose...or we survive, and then win the game. We can confirm the scumteam's not grapes/Almost50 by lynching Almost50. (Almost50 flipping scum either ends the game or heavily incriminates grapes.) Shiro/grapes cannot be solo scum, and Shiro/grapes cannot be the scumteam because Shiro/grapes had the chance to win by killing me at night. So that would mean in 3p lylo, we'd lynch Reasonably Rational.

But inherent in this option is trusting that there isn't a 2-man scumteam, or if there is, that it's grapes/Almost50. (It also assumes that scum can't win by killing me and endgaming Shiro--I don't think they can, but Varsoon may inform me otherwise.)

A lynch on Shiro represents the "safe" path: the least amount of gain, for the least amount of reward. Again assuming scum can't win by endgaming me upon the lynch (and again, I don't think they can, but Varsoon may inform me otherwise), then lynching Shiro has the following effects.
Reasonably Rational is incredibly unlikely at this stage to be on a two-man scumteam. So they are incredibly unlikely to be able to endgame us.
So, if Shiro is scum, it removes scum and indicates that one of grapes/Almost50 is scum. (Likely grapes.)
If Shiro is town, then we know there's only one scum. I live to see tomorrow (RR cannot kill me because grapes is cleared and Almost50 being commuted is indisposed), and we've got a 50/50 between Almost50 and Reasonably Rational, rather than a 50/50 between Shiro and RR.
The risk in this is, of course: we instantly lose to a grapes/Almost50 scumteam. The fact that we still have an instant-loss path on the "safe" route might make you wonder what exactly about it is actually safe, and that's mainly that the assumptions made here are slightly more likely than the assumptions made on the cast-the-die no-lynch path: it is significantly more likely that RR is not on a two-man scumteam. It is slightly more likely that grapes-Almost50 is not our scumteam than it is Shiro/grapes is not our scumteam. So in comparison, a Shiro lynch is safer than a no-lynch. But it also gives far less benefit. It tells us Shiro is town. It tells us grapes is town. It doesn't resolve the age-old debate between Almost50 and Reasonably Rational. The debate we've had for three fucking day phases.

What, then, does the Reasonably Rational lynch represent?
High-risk, high-reward.

If there is ANY two-man scumteam, realistically speaking, by lynching RR, we lose. (Because realistically speaking, RR is the least-likely playerslot to be on a two-man scumteam.) This is the risk.
The reward is that there are only two possible one-man scumteams: Reasonably Rational, and Almost50. If there's only one scum in the game, we can lynch Reasonably Rational. If RR is scum, we win the game. If RR is town, then Almost50 is scum. We lynch him tomorrow, and we win the game. So, with only one scum in the game, we have an autowin.
This is the reward.

So, between casting the dice, taking the safe option, or taking the riskier option, which do I favor?
Right now, push come to shove, I'd take the risk and lynch Reasonably Rational. (ESPECIALLY if V tells me that, in actuality, the scum CAN endgame us with grapes/Almost50 out of the game even though that'd be utter bullshit.)

But that's right now, prior to my research.
I intend to take as much time as humanly possible running the risk-reward analysis, and asking if it's worth it. I intend to do my research, thoroughly. I intend for both of you to be speaking the whole fucking time, and Shiro, yes I will lynch you if I for so much as one MOMENT sense complacency from you. If I so much as for a SECOND think you're lurking it out, just waiting for me to cast a vote for Reasonably Rational, let me make it abundantly clear to you: I will do the opposite and vote you.

I don't need to tell RR to contribute. Even if I was leaning towards voting you, Shiro, I know RR's personality would, regardless of their alignment, be such that they would be posting me and efforting.
I know that, regardless of your personality, you will lurk.

But make no mistake, here, Shiro--if push comes to shove, and I get the choice between handing victory to a lurksack who has done fuckall the whole game, or handing victory to Reasonably Rational, who do you think I'll be comfortable losing to? Yeah. I'll vote you over RR if I can't make a decision. If it's 50/50 split, instead of going off of the gamestate. Instead of going off of reasons, off of logic, off of any semblance of actual gameplay. I'll reward the side who deserves it more. And that side? Most definitely not yours.

So!
This whole time.
I will be doing research. Some I'll make public. Some will be private. I will ask questions of you both. I expect you to be efforting the whole time: explaining why you are town and why they are scum. And working with me. Answering my prompts. Giving your perspective on matters. Giving your viewpoint. Giving your feedback. Saying what you think. Arguing your agenda.

If you can't do that, Shiro, replace out and let a player who can come in. Yeah, they'd have 500 pages to read. But I'm dead serious here.
While I think the riskier/greater reward play is, overall, the right play as of this moment: that can and WILL change if you don't give me your 100% here and give everything you've got to this game. So regardless of your alignment, I'm expecting you to actually step up and play. You don't, you lose. Simple. as. that.
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Post Post #12401 (isolation #683) » Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:52 pm

Post by mastin2 »

I think that I am comfortable with the idea of losing to a grapes-Almost50 scumteam here, so I think we are going to lynch today. (I'll let you know if I change my mind after I start my work.)

So!

The way I see it,
-Either neither of you are scum and Almost50 is (in which case, lynching either doesn't matter but we do so as a precaution anyway following one of the two below),
-Shiro is scum with grapes/Almost50 (likely grapes),
-Or, Reasonably Rational is scum.

If the first proves to be the case, who we lynch today doesn't really matter--it'd be town either way.
But I am going to assume that the lynch DOES matter.
So while this might be an error, I am going to assume one of you is in fact scum, and treat today as a traditional 3p lylo.
Now, I won't discard the Almost50-grapes scumteam in my research. But I really can't do much about that possibility other than research, now, can I? Out of the game means out of the game.

So, that means...what I CAN do here is to work under the assumption we are aiming to lynch scum today.
And by that, I have the following request to make:

Shiro, Reasonably Rational:
I want you to, as closely as you can get to your original role PMs without getting modkilled, roleclaim EVERYTHING about your roles.
The name of your character.
Every ability you have/had, both its effect and its flavor name.

Then, next, I want you to claim every action you've taken
including alliances
.
I want you to also, when listing your alliances, give a paraphrase of
everything
which happened in said PT. (Of particular note: I am going to flat-out DEMAND that both of you, separately, paraphrase your shared topic/topics, for some very obvious reasons. Use your own words and describe what happened.) Actually, when I say 'you two', I mean 'you three'. I want EACH head of Reasonably Rational, SEPARATELY, to respond to all of the above.

Then, outline any and all actions you have taken during the game: which action, when you took it, the results thereof.

All in one spot. Lay every private card of yours on the table at once. All three of you, as soon as humanly possible.

This may or may not take some amount of time, especially clearing your paraphrases with Varsoon. But I do mean it when I want this info from ALL THREE of you. Even if there's the temptation to say, "He said it better than I could". Don't give me that shit. I want it anyway, your words, inferior, superior, as they are.

I'm not expecting to get immediate use out of this, but I'm hoping it'll help me down the line after I continue doing my research.
Well, to be honest: start. Day started on the weekend and I've not had the time for this game. Probably won't today, maybe won't tomorrow, maybe not even Tuesday, but SOMEHOW I'll find the time in this game since I have no choice but to. Still, that gives you plenty of time to clear this info with Varsoon, and I'm expecting you to do so.
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Post Post #12404 (isolation #684) » Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:40 pm

Post by mastin2 »

While 2/3 of you giving prompt responses like this is indeed helpful, yeah I'll definitely be wanting more in-depth paraphrases of PTs. Those are actually one of the most important parts.
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Post Post #12405 (isolation #685) » Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:31 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Also, personal request, but could you two crossvote?
It's not like you're going to have one of you self-hammer.
And it's not like I'm going to impulsively hammer. (There's far too much at stake for that.)
And it's not like crossvoting locks you into that and stops us from ever potentially no-lynching. (We could always change.)

At this stage, I am assuming we are going to lynch today.
Which means, I am assuming I am going to be voting one of you today.
But that decision might not come until literally
the
last possible minute. (Probably before then, sure, yeah, but it could be.)
If you're not around to vote later, that would be...rather bad.

It's one less thing I have to think/worry about today.
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Post Post #12407 (isolation #686) » Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:45 pm

Post by mastin2 »

So, uh.

Drixx:
still waiting for your summary.
Reasonably Rational:
still waiting for you to vote.

All three of you:
still waiting for a more advanced summary.

There's more tasks I have to ask of you. Specifically, four for all of you, and two additional ones which're specific to Reasonably Rational (and I similarly want individual answers from both heads on each issue since I need their individual perspectives).

Time IS of the essence here.
Because, uh. Yeah. The more of these I get, the more informed my decision will be. There's VERY important stuff that needs to be done, but they need to be done in very specific orders in most cases and right now, there's this holdup.
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Post Post #12411 (isolation #687) » Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:21 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12408, Shiro wrote:more advanced summary as in ? I havent really read at all my alliance with RR and Titus.
What I'm looking for is for you to actually read your alliance PTs (that one especially), and to then paraphrase as close as you can get the contents of there.

Not the summary of events in there: "We talked about these things."
More, "Titus said this, then I said this, then RR said this, then Titus said this, then RR said that, then Titus went and did..."
That.

You might think that's a level of extra work, but let me ask you: when I'm considering a lynch between you and Reasonably Rational, are you comfortable letting THEM dictate the narrative of the events therein? Because if you don't do this, that's basically what you're allowing.
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Post Post #12412 (isolation #688) » Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:37 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12409, Reasonably Rational wrote:I'm not convinced that the first choice we should make today has been properly evaluated.
One, that's the default option: if we don't lynch today, by default a no-lynch happens with us having done nothing.
Two, you're not the one who has to do the work there. That's me. If I want your opinion on this option (and I just might!), I will ask about it.
Three, that still doesn't address how there's no harm in you casting a vote on Shiro. What are you afraid of? I haven't hammered you, so I wouldn't hammer Shiro if you voted Shiro. Is Shiro self-voting a concern of yours? If not, then my previous statement still stands: there is no harm in you casting a vote for Shiro. If we decide to no-lynch later, then all I'd need to do to have that happen is not hammer. Or, we could flat-out vote for a no-lynch. Voting Shiro does not lock you in to a Shiro/RR lynch.
Mostly my concern is an A50+Grapes team, but I'm not going to rule out possibilities without any reason to do so.
Biased information. There's three possibilities.
Shiro is scum with one of Almost50/grapes. (Likely grapes.)
Almost50/grapes are scum.
Or there's only one scum, and it's either you or Almost50.

Those are the only options. Shiro cannot be solo-scum. Therefore, say you're lynched: we either instantly lose to a Shiro + secondscum team, or there's no kill because Almost50/grapes can't kill, and then we either lose to an Almost50/grapes scumteam or we know that Almost50 is solo-scum.
I would like for you to lay out exactly why you feel the Grapes/A50 team is impossible (which to me seems a necessary conclusion to conclude that we must lynch today), or at least improbable enough to be worth risking just losing outright by acting today.
Absolutely nothing!

The thing is.

If you are scum, I can get more information by assuming we are lynching, and working with you, talking to you, and about you.
If Shiro is scum, I can get more information by assuming we are lynching, and working with Shiro, talking to Shiro, and about Shiro.
If one of you two is scum, by assuming we are lynching, and by assuming one of you two are scum, I can involve you two in the decision-making process, because ultimately I am the one who makes the call and the ONLY way to involve you, realistically speaking, is to assume that we are lynching one of you.

If neither of you is scum...well, what the fuck can you two do to convince me to no-lynch?

There really isn't anything, there, now, is there?

And I can't ask Almost50.
I can't ask grapes.
I can't interact with either of them.

I can read about them.
I can research their past actions.

This, I can do.

But in the present, as they are out of the game, they are also out of my ability to engage.
And thus, assuming they are scum, for the purposes of engaging you two, is useless. It gives me nothing. It doesn't get me any closer to making my decision. It doesn't get me any closer to making the game-deciding call. Nothing you can say or do will change my perspective whatsoever on Almost50/grapes, because you aren't Almost50/grapes, and they aren't around to respond to anything you say on them.

In contrast: stuff you say about Shiro can and will change my perspective on Shiro AND you, because you are you, and Shiro is around to respond to you. For the purposes of engagement, it is therefore most productive to assume one of you is scum, and to engage you as if this is a traditional 3p lylo.

It's my job, and my job alone, to on my own, do research into Almost50/grapes.

And if you want to know what's next on the agenda, I can give it to you as soon as I've got your own paraphrase of your role and actions.

The PTs are secondary, and relate to a later question on the agenda, but the very next question doesn't need knowledge from PTs. It does need fully-in-the-open paraphrases.
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Post Post #12413 (isolation #689) » Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:40 pm

Post by mastin2 »

*Role paraphrases, that is.
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Post Post #12414 (isolation #690) » Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:46 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Also,
Reasonably Rational:
this isn't one of my questions specific to you. And it's not addressed to a specific head. And not something I expect both to answer, one will do.

But, as a matter of personal convenience, could you compile the closest possible paraphrase of every aspect you know of Almost50 and grapes's roles?
I could probably do this myself, but you doing it would be faster and make my life easier. (Because, yes, it does influence me.)
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Post Post #12415 (isolation #691) » Tue Jan 31, 2017 6:06 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Actually, thinking about it, there's no harm in me bringing up this one. I said it was a question, but it's kind-of an open one.
In post 12381, Varsoon wrote:
Pearl points are awarded for punctuality, perseverance, and positivity.

If you ally with another player, you may reward them with 'Pearl Points'.
The points cumulate and are never taken away.
Pearl Points can not be rewarded on Episodes when the Exposition ended on a 'No-Lynch'.
Players will earn 1 Pearl Point for being on the same wagon you are on when the Exposition Phase ends.
Players will earn 2 Pearl Points for allying with you on consecutive Episodes.
Players will earn 3 Pearl Points for lynching scum.
During the Season Finale or at +3 or Higher Stress, players earn double the Pearl Points.

We may be smaller, weaker, and less gifted than our opponents but with these P's, we have the keys to success aaaand to the Pearl prize pouch!

You may, at any time, reward players who have earned enough Pearl Points.
If a player has 100 Pearl Points, you may allow them to achieve a unique third-party win-condition and leave the game.
What do you have to say about
yet another
third party wincon in the game?

For those keeping track,
-We have Xkfyu as a potential survivor (who could be beneficial to scum)
-We have farside as a potential 3p leaving the game in victory
-We have any number of players able to reach 100 Peal Points and leave with a 3p victory (admittedly, probably only one, and ridiculously hard--it'd take by my math somewhere around ten days to achieve this victory in ideal circumstances).
-We know there were four crystal gems at the start: Yume, MoI, randomidget, and Klingoncelt. They were apparently special/harder town, if you assume they told the truth about their wincon. (Which we've assumed, but as you'd be so apt to point out, don't know for sure was a fact.)
-We know the scum started with at least 5 members, plus DGB as a traitor.

-The town is therefore made up of 19 - 4 -1 = 14 players, at the start.
Or, 14 + 4 if you'd like.
-The possibility of two unique third party wins brings that number down by two, to 12 + 4, in the worst-case scenario.

What are your thoughts there?
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Post Post #12416 (isolation #692) » Tue Jan 31, 2017 6:11 pm

Post by mastin2 »

^Note the above is if there's five scum plus DGB at the start and grapes is full-town.

If grapes is leftover, then the math instead becomes:
18 -4 - 1 = 13, or 13 + 4.
Third party wins bring it down to 11 + 4.
grapes joining scum + Xkfyu not joining the gems = 5 + 1(DGB) + 1(grapes) +.5 (Xkfyu) scum in the game.
Against 11 + 4 town in the game.

What do you say to those odds?
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Post Post #12419 (isolation #693) » Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:21 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Will be reading that later (god I hope time doesn't fly by), but still need Drixx's role paraphrase,
Drixx to paraphrase,
And both of you to weigh in on the question in /.
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Post Post #12422 (isolation #694) » Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:19 am

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12420, Reasonably Rational wrote:It's not going to occur in a game, unless somehow scum fail all their kills, or town fail to lynch over and over again...and by over and over again I mean something like 90% of the time there needs to be no deaths in a given day.
Pray tell, who, exactly, has been reminding me of all the various methods of kill prevention we have in the game especially from the gems?
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Post Post #12425 (isolation #695) » Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:38 am

Post by mastin2 »

Also, would love to see what you think of what these things mean:
In post 12420, Reasonably Rational wrote:A50's role: he had a 1 shot watcher variant that refilled on season finales. It allowed him to target a player and know if they performed an action on someone else, and whether that action was harmful to the target. At +2 stress and during season finales, the power allowed him to learn exactly who they targeted, and what the exact action was.
In post 3226, Varsoon wrote:
I think we better double-check.

Each Climax Phase, you may target a player to learn your choice of one of the following:
-Who they targeted on any Climax phase of your choice.
-Who they chose to ally with during any Episode of your choice.
-Who targeted them on any Climax phase of your choice.
-Which action they took on any Climax phase of your choice (you may only do this if you have information on who they targeted).
In post 10229, Varsoon wrote:
Oh, Ruby, you're so forgetful!

During the Climax Phase, you may use your action to learn which players targeted you during the previous Climax Phase.
If you are allied with a player, this action will instead tell you which types of actions were used on you.
I'll be using basic descriptors such as 'Investigative', 'Protective', 'Blocking', etc.
During the Season Finale, you may have me privately confirm one of these sets of information to your Alliance members.
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Post Post #12432 (isolation #696) » Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:04 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Uhg, I'm WAY behind on my timeline here. :?

We have five days.
I'm not even half-way through the things I need to ask of you.
I haven't even really begun to go into the level of depth that I want to.

This isn't an ideal situation to be in, but at this stage, I really need those answers.
Like, Drixx I still want you to paraphrase your role PM using YOUR words.
And I still want both of you to answer about .
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Post Post #12433 (isolation #697) » Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:12 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Like. I'm not sure how to go about this right now.

I guess...I know this is placing a lot of work on you right now.

But:
-My top priority is Drixx paraphrasing his role PM.
-My second priority is you two answering .
-My third priority is having PTs be summarized by each player.
When those are done, there will be additional tasks I have to ask of everyone, but:
-Another priority I have is to ask:
Everyone:
I want you to basically give, in your own words, a summary of the entire game.
Here, not a paraphrase. :P GOD no, not a paraphrase of the entire fucking game. But I want you to give a summary of how the game has progressed, start to finish, giving any and all details you deem relevant. Highlights of days. Relevant things. Anything you see as being critical to the game.

I know I'm asking a ton of you to do this, but it's important.

-
Everyone:
I want you, using a simple argument, to lay out why you are town. Lay out the facts, highlight the important parts.
-
Everyone:
I want you, as succinctly as possible, to lay out why the other party is scum. RR, why Shiro would be scum. Shiro, why RR would be scum. Lay out the important facts as you see them.

Basically, I'm looking to see you present all the relevant information for the game, as you see it.
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Post Post #12434 (isolation #698) » Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:16 pm

Post by mastin2 »

And I am sorry to everyone involved in this game. I'm doing as much work here as I can manage. It's hard. I'm getting tired. Exhausted. And I'm only accomplishing a FRACTION of the work I laid out for myself to do. I'm not going to be able to do what I want to do, what I arguably SHOULD be doing. Time's just disappearing way too fast, and I'm being far too inattentive to this game. It's my top priority, at least it should be, and yet my time is being spent ineffectively.

I promise I'm reviewing my notes, but I'm not doing the reading I need to do in order to get the most, maximum, efficiency out of said notes.
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Post Post #12437 (isolation #699) » Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:02 pm

Post by mastin2 »

You didn't fullclaim in there. I literally just read it.
You left out your roleblock ability.

As for a game summary: what has transpired in the game, as you see it. Even if you're describing the same facts, different perspectives will lead to different word usage and right now that could help me.
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Post Post #12440 (isolation #700) » Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:38 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Alright.
Next question.

This is actually my top priority question right now.
EVERYONE:
I want you to rank every one of the remaining four roles, most to least, in terms of the following:
"If this role were scum, how useful it would be in disrupting town synergy".
And then give the reasons why you ranked them most to least in that order.
The roles have all been made known in their entirety.
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Post Post #12443 (isolation #701) » Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:06 pm

Post by mastin2 »

There's a mechanic involved that until recently, we were all forgetting about, Cerb.
If Almost50 were scum and grapes told the truth about their ability, then the stress would have plummeted to slice of life.
It did not.

As a result, the only possibilities are that Almost50 is town, or grapes lied.

The reason I don't think grapes lied at this point is many, many things, but among others is that an Almost50-grapes scumteam makes zero sense, because Almost50 was pushing for grapes's death for basically most of the game, and if that wasn't enough, Almost50-grapes as a scumteam has no reason to no-kill the night Fuzzy killed. (The main reason for a no-kill there was to not be caught and become confscum--a nonissue if Almost50-grapes is the scumteam in question.)

So realistically speaking, what I said before is now more true than ever:
We are assuming a lynch today. Because I do not view Almost50-grapes as a realistic scumteam. I haven't done the research I'd LIKE to, there, but I don't think I ever will get that far. I don't need to, however. Because if Almost50-grapes is the scumteam, I am absolutely comfortable losing to them at this juncture.

The question to ask is whether it's grapes-Shiro, or just you.
Ergo, this is basically a traditional 3p lylo now, for real.

I realized this on my own, in my notes, just recently. (So recently, I hadn't even PMed Varsoon to let him know I knew. Well, remembered what I already knew.) But now that you bring it up, I will too.

Almost50-grapes is not the scumteam.
Almost50 cannot be solo-scum because stress did not go to -4.
Almost50-Shiro is impossible because stress did not go to -4.
The only possibilities then are Shiro-grapes or Reasonably Rational alone.
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Post Post #12454 (isolation #702) » Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:07 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Uhg, I really, really wanted to do stuff tonight.
Especially for this game.
I might be busy tomorrow modding, but otherwise, I'm going to make it my top priority. There's some things I need to read, and also an important post to make towards Reasonably Rational about them. I was planning to do that tonight, but while it's only 1:00 AM, I'm feeling as shitty as I would if it were 4. I need to get to sleep, and fairly soonish.

I mean, here shoulda been my top priority ANYWAY to be fully honest, but this time I'm saying it verbally, in here, as a promise to you all.

I'm feeling like a failure on every level, here.

I simply am not going to be giving you what you want.
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Post Post #12458 (isolation #703) » Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:47 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Alright. So what I'm going to do today is going to be long. Very, very, very long. In my notes, when addressing the dead thread, I gave it the tongue-in-cheek phrase of being my list of grievances with your slot, RR. It'd be a little more accurate to say it's an open-ended case of sorts.

Basically, I'm not presenting this information to convince anyone. I'm not presenting this information as a justification--you'll note that I'm not actually voting you after presenting all of this. It's a genuine, open request, a plea of sorts, for you to address the issues with your slot that I have in my notes. You won't be able to address every concern of mine--that's fine. (I also won't be raising every concern of mine, since many are strewn across the thread and I haven't had time to research them and bring them together; these are purely my issues off of memory.)

But I do need you to address as many of these as you can. Fully and entirely. Because they are many. They are strong points. They are how I am seeing things, basically. We'll start with some of the basics.

The abilities you possess flavor-wise fit Army as being the last scum
.
The kill-upon hammer, and the forceful blocking of an ally, both seem like traits which fit the last scum for being Army. In contrast, the other two possible players for being Army (Almost50, Shiro) have abilities that I don't think make sense as coming from Army.
How would they, flavor-wise, make sense? How would yours NOT make sense? Because by the flavor as I understand it, your abilities are a perfect match for the flavor of Army; their abilities don't fit for Army at all.

The abilities you possess don't seem to match well with your given flavor of Sadie
.
Related to the above. While Beachapalooza is no doubt a Sadie event, we know that scum's town-events are tailored to their fakeclaim. I have no issue with the Beachapalooza events. But I maintain that your standard abilities seem to not match Sadie's flavor. I can
kind-of
see them. Sort-of. But it seems like a stretch. It feels like something Varsoon would give as a fakeclaim. It feels like something that is "close enough" to fit as a fakeclaim, but isn't as close as it'd be if it were an actual town role.

Now to be fair! I haven't looked up Shiro's flavor. I haven't looked up Almost50's flavor. I want to, and think I need to, to see how well THEIR abilities match their claims. If their abilities seem like a stretch, then this point would be invalid. But if their abilities seem to just naturally "fit", then this point becomes relevant: yours doesn't seem to fit well.

The abilities you possess give the scum a much-needed strength boost
.
Almost50 has a tracker/watcher-type ability, when the scum have TWO other tracker/watcher abilities. This redundancy seems incredibly unlikely. (Additionally, if Almost50 were scum, that'd mean the town didn't have ANY tracker/watcher-type abilities.) Furthermore, his enhancement ability would give scum YET ANOTHER kill enhancement ability, something their scumteam has plenty of, between their scum roles and scum factional events which have been triggered throughout the game.
Shiro's ability is absolutely worthless to the scumteam outside of ONE specific scenario, that being, a permanent DGB neighborhood with scum. Aside from that one specific usage, aside from that one specific instance, Shiro's power grants the scum absolutely nothing.

In contrast, your claimed hammer ability (which, by the way, I'm not certain exists--why was SirCakez bubbled when you hammered D1? By my understanding of your ability, you should have caused him to instantly flip) would be able to shut down farside's lynch immunity and the gem's bubbling, among others. (Heck, it might've been able to even overcome increased lynch threshold!) It's an ability which can hurt town, but can't hurt scum because scum had no lynch immunity as you have claimed across the game they would possess.

Furthermore, and this is the ironic thing: you made a point in your ranting about how the scumteam lacks a way of shutting down the scum's power. This is true. The scum's flipped powers this game revolve almost entirely around TWO basic concepts: blending into the townbloc with town-sounding abilities...and enhanced kills to overcome protection on conftown. Yet there IS a slight deficit in scum power. The scumteam can blend into the town. The scumteam can get extra kills on town. But the scumteam, as it is, has no way aside from enhanced kills to actually
shut down
the town.

This deficit in scum power is not enough to justify an extra scumbag. It's only a slight deficit, not a severe one. Having an extra scumbag swings the game the other direction, giving them too much power, especially if said extra scumbag would be Almost50. But it IS enough where I thought the scum needed SOME form of power...and your claimed roleblock ability offers exactly that. Furthermore, if the scumteam's extra member is Shiro, it still doesn't solve the problem of scum being unable to shut down conftown.

The timing/reason you joined the SirCakez wagon felt like bussing for towncred
.
You have consistently stated you have done this as your main selling point for why you are town. Yet your statement feels like you are overselling the importance of your position there. At the time you made your case against SirCakez, SirCakez was the main wagon, backed by many conftown/obvtown players such as myself. We were pushing HARD to get him lynched. Your vote hop onto the wagon there felt reminiscent of the way you bussed your scumbuddy on D1 in SC's game when you knew they were going down: it was a lost cause, on a player who was by and large now useless (thanks to DGB), and thus, running simple cost-benefit analysis would show that the benefit of bussing outweighed the cost of losing a scumbuddy.

Furthermore, you have painted a picture in which you say that your case important...and yet, behind closed doors, you were privately trying to dismantle your own case. With Titus, privately, you were attempting to discredit your own case. To make it weaker. To make it less valid. You were attempting to shift momentum AWAY from SirCakez in private, while publicly pushing him. This strongly looks like "having your cake and eating it two", trying to have it both ways: you publicly want the towncred, yet privately want SirCakez alive. Stuff like this is where you show that:
In post 12418, Reasonably Rational wrote:OWK: Vote SC.
Cerb:"I need to respond to his response. It, well, it actually was fairly reasonable. There are a couple things in there that pique my interest, but overall it's not bad. My skim doesn't say it's so not bad as to outweigh everything else, but it's worth looking into. "
Cerb:"So, just something to consider: If SC is scum, it seems basically impossible to get him lynched today. Between his teammates not voting him, and the joyride members not voting him, we'll basically need like 70%+ of the remaining town to vote for him. The existence of the joy ride even muddles how obvious it could be if his teammates refused to vote for him. "
Titus: We'll get the votes, don't worry.
OWK: Your vote will be the tipping point.
Cerb:"It is 100% up to mastin whether this particular issue becomes major or not. We'll see what she has to say whenever she shows up.

Honestly, I would *much* prefer the NC wagon over this one, considering that one just completely disappeared for no reason I can see."
Cerb:"Hate blank votes, coming from the slots they come from it makes me suspicious thst we've reached the tipping point and those two votes are scum rushing to make sure they're on the lynch,but probably at worst only one of xkfyu and creature is scum (assuming a scum flip from SC of course). If he's town, they could both easily be scum. That's pure theory talk though, doesn't take into account either slots play style. "
Titus: minimum of one is scum.
Cerb:"Actually, if he flips town, it's REALLY unlikely that either is scum imo. Considering the thread apathy, there would be no need for scum to jump on this wagon to push it over the edge."
Cerb:"I don't want him hammered until I can sort out wtf farside and A50 are doing. How did A50 miss what was apparently a line in his pt that told him he was BP/now figure out the source of it? Why would farside remove the bp and targeting restrictions? It doesn't make sense."
Cerb:"The real point of my search for clarity, OWK, is to determine if A50 KNEW that SC could grant BP to mastin(or at least, if he SHOULD have known). Determining whether or not I trust his claim to have "missed" it is another issue entirely.

Any thoughts on NC completely ignoring the post where I tell him that his opinion regarding this issue isn't trustworthy because he's most likely to be lynched if the SC lynch doesn't go through? I would have expected him to note that I'm just as likely to be lynched(since the main point of that argument is that the same people who are going after SC are suspicious of him as well, and there's a moderate overlap with those who are suspicious of me as well). "
Cerb: "NC has been an unsubstantiated scumread for awhile, largely influenced by both Drixx and yourself. He's on the list of things to look into if I ever get the time."
You also unvoted at a time where it was realistic that unvoting would have killed the momentum on his wagon altogether.

The game narrative best matches with you as scum
.
It's true that the scumteam doesn't necessarily
require
a scum mastermind...but all the same, it's undeniable that the scumteam's actions this game have been, by and large, "smart". They have been on-point. Every time the town developed a strategy which was meant to catch/confirm scum and lock down a town win, they managed to prevent this from happening, every single time, every step of the way.

This doesn't match the level of quality I would expect from a Shiro scumteam. This does not match what I think grapes is capable of doing as scum. It could theoretically come from Almost50, but even then that feels like a stretch. But the scum slipping through the cracks makes perfect sense if you are scum, because exploiting gaps in town strategies and synergy is something you happen to specialize at doing.

The stances you have held have consistently been the stances most convenient for the scumteam
.
You were a late pusher of SirCakez, not understanding the wagon initially, and then making a push when it was inevitable. When SirCakez claimed and some players unvoted, you too unvoted, making the SirCakez wagon no longer inevitable.
You similarly protected DGB until it was shown beyond any reasonable doubt she would be scum.

You reversed your stance on Skybird. Initially, you advised against mechanically clearing Skybird for knowing who Steven was on D1 (but formed a nulltown read on her slot anyway). Then, come D2, suddenly you have her as unlynchable town...not via play, but because...she knew who Steven was on D1. The very thing you advised against doing, and yet she went from nulltown to unlynchable town, violating your prior advice.

While you said you noted that "TWIE needs to do something to be town, else lynch him", when push actually came to shove, you showed incredible resistance to his lynch. You were advocating for farside's death that day, insisting that we follow Titus's will rather than mine. You eventually relented when I continued pressing the issue, but I had to fight tooth and nail to get that lynch through.

You protected Shadow_step when he was up for a lynch. The votes between Creature and Shadow_step were basically tied, and your vote helped swing momentum towards the Creature lynch. You voted for an incredibly-scummy, opportunistic-sounding reason as well, "welp, might as well do this", essentially, rather than a clear-cut case for why Creature was the superior lynch.

Furthermore, you also kept Fuzzy from vigging Shadow_step, which not only gave Shadow_step an extra day alive (forcing us to lynch him), but also prevented Fuzzy from being confirmed as town, because Fuzzy's shot going through that night would have confirmed Fuzzy as town (since scum couldn't act).

Then, you convinced Fuzzy to shoot farside. Farside was immune to the scum nightkill. She could NOT be killed by them. Both the conftown players were heavily defending her. And with her executioner-lite role, she would be incredibly hard to lynch. With ANY non-farside wagon gaining ANY momentum, she could use her role and force the lynch through on a non-her player, and that is something the scum couldn't have around. (She was also heavily-scumreading your slot.)

Additionally, Fuzzy shooting farside rather than in you/Almost50 prevented the resolution of the grapes/Almost50/RR/Fuzzy dilemma which CONTINUES EVEN NOW DAYS LATER because it wasn't resolved.
This, not even going into your consistent third party paranoia. Your paranoia towards the crystal gem faction. Your paranoia towards farside. How much paranoia am I to expect is actually reasonable or rational coming from you?

And then, on a last note, you resisted the plans which involved your death every step of the way. You insisted, "we need to live" almost every time. "Don't lynch us". Let a less-assured nightkill take you out instead. From a Fuzzy vig to a Shiro bubble, you've insisted on not being lynched, but rather, on the less-assured being taken out at night. This showed extreme survivalism, at a time there was no justification for doing so. (Fuck, we had an autowin plan! Why try to survive if the town can win 100% of the time?)

Almost50 advocated for his own death, his own lynch, for literally days. Shiro similarly showed signs of wanting to be dead. You always showed the opposite. You always insisted that you needed to live...or at the very least, "we shouldn't die
right now
, even if we should later". What time was "later" actually supposed to be? Because it sure hasn't materialized!

On that note, you kept randomidget from bubbling within the Almost50/RR duo off of "paranoia of an extra scum kill", which...again. Is paranoia.
Until today when you being town would necessitate the stance, so too was the idea of an extra scum paranoia. So again. At what stage am I to believe this amount of consistent paranoia is actually town? Because your constant, neverending paranoia EVERY step of the game has served to discredit town after town, cast shade on player after player, with most of them having flipped town. Why should I believe that constant paranoia casting comes from a playerslot whose fucking NAME is "Reasonably Rational"?
Because reasonable means "sound judgment; fair; sensible"; rational means "based on/in accordance with reason or logic".
Paranoia means "suspicion and mistrust of people/actions
without evidence of justification
".
It's pretty much a fucking antonym of reasonable and rational, and yet paranoia has been YOUR DEFINING TRAIT this game.

Every step of the way, you have shifted blame
.
It's NEVER been your fault. It's always someone else having fucked up. To whit,
Beachapalooza not catching scum was Titus's fault for activating her IC. A miscommunication allowing scum to hide.
The gem paranoia was Yume's fault, for not communicating appropriately.

Protecting TheWayItEnds on Day 5, that was Titus's idea, plus "farside deserved it" because she was clearly scumming the thread up.
The Creature lynch, that was Creature's fault, combined with bad communication from farside meaning she was also partially to blame. (More on that below.)

Fuzzy holding fire and not conftowning himself was his decision, his choice, not yours.
Similarly, Fuzzy shooting farside was his decision, his choice, not yours. Also, because Almost50 was pressuring him to do so, you hold no responsibility for also having pressured him to do so.

You have consistently treated me like crap the entire game
.
You have put me down every step of the way, even when I have been shown to be objectively right at almost every turn. You have ignored me when I've pointed stuff like this out before (the large majority of what I'm saying here is a rehash of old stuff I said before!), and focused on strawmanning my arguments, attacking the weakest points and acting as if that served to dismantle my entire argument.

You resisted simple requests of mine every step of the way. You have constantly stalled. The few times you address me, often from Cerb there were "misunderstandings" of what I asked, or from Drixx flat-out hostility towards my requests. You have pretended that you don't have an attitude problem, and insisted that *I* have one. You have insisted that *I* am the problem here. You have consistently pretended that nothing you've done is wrong, displaying a level of arrogance beyond what I've EVER seen from you in any capacity in a prior towngame. As Cerb, as Drixx, as RR.
On that note,

You should have known I believed you to be scum, yet acted otherwise
.
This is bad wording on my part, but during part of the game, you were actively working to discredit me. You were saying how much I wasn't actually scumreading you. How it was personal. How it was bias. How it wasn't sincere. How I was a liar. Yet you know me enough to know that was bullshit.
And similarly,

You have worked against me the majority of the lategame
.
In spite of me being conftown, rather than try and work within my requests, you discredited me in the eyes of others. You worked with randomidget, rather than me. You worked with MoI, rather than me. You worked with all the players you now think are scum, rather than working with me, the one player who was 100% conftown. I was scumreading you, yes. But you, as town, have worked with me in the past while I was scumreading you with zero problems at all. You worked around the scumread. You tried to find common ground. You tried to present stances which would get me to be more receptive. You were, in a sentence,
"Okay, I get that you're scumreading me. I can't stop that. What I can do is give you my thoughts, which are this. Please listen when I flip town". I saw basically none of that this game. Instead, I just saw, "mastina is wrong". Over and over again, addressed to everyone except for me.

Your inability to grasp these issues goes beyond reasonable doubt
.
You've never had this much problem communicating with me in past games as town. Not ONCE. Not once have you felt so off, so out of touch, with my issues towards you.

Your stances have consistently changed as most convenient/opportunistic
.
When grapes was seen as town by the rest of the town, you treated grapes as town. It was ONLY when grapes became a viable mislynch that you formed a scumread on them. And then, suddenly, when grapes became an inconvenient mislynch, you reversed your read back to town. When grapes's power potentially could break the game, you were buttering up to grapes, and when grapes was no longer an issue, this was dropped.

When I townread grapes, you formed a grapes townread yourself. When I voted grapes, it was back to a scumread. When Shiro was considered all-but-conftown, you treated Shiro as town. Yet when Shiro became the only possible realistic scum, suddenly Shiro shifted into a hard-scumread as if you were always scumreading Shiro from the start.

When Almost50 was a universal townread (and also, had you as his main townread), you had him as your strongest townread. And yet, when Almost50 turned on you and became a viable mislynch, he was suddenly a scumread of yours, a 180 reversal which went almost without any explanation whatsoever.

In this lylo phase, you have taken every step possible to prevent me from eliminating teams. You have overlooked mechanics until I have pointed it out. When you have stated things about the setup, you have prevented them from definitively ruling out teams. You have been keeping your options open, not locking yourself in. (This, in spite of my deliberate request for you to do exactly that!)

When I wasn't someone you needed the help of, you were consistently pushing me away. (See above.) And yet, now, when I'm the game-deciding vote, suddenly you're treating me a whole different way, as if all of that shitty stuff you said to me had never happened and we were always on the best of terms. Buddying up to me.

You have looked for every escape route possible
.
You've avoided closing doors. You've avoided confronting issues revolving around you. You've avoided the lynch like a plague. You've tried to find every possible way for scum to not be you. I don't see genuine scumhunting. I don't see genuine game solving. I see a player who is trying to keep options open, as to best have a chance of avoiding the noose.

You have been incredibly manipulative of the game's narrative
.
Every step of the way, you have said "we are town, we have helped the town, we did these things, and they were town". And yet, none of them are, as far as I can tell, actually true. (More on that below.)

Your private topics were incredibly manipulative
.
I haven't read the D3 one, but I have read the D1 and D2 ones.
Your blind trust in Titus felt beyond reason. The way you tried to go about gaining her trust also felt like it was something which was only of benefit to you as scum. Then when you actually did gain her trust, you went about trying to influence her. You encouraged her to lynch town players and discouraged her from voting SirCakez. (As seen above.)

Yet most of your thoughts in there were sheeping Titus--they were giving her exactly what she
wanted
to hear. You consistently were hedging bets on many key players/issues in the game. The way you were trying to make Titus ignore me, in private, when I was already conftown. And then there's how, on both D1 and D2, you point out justifications for scum acting ways now that certain behaviors have come true...before the scum acted that way, as if laying the groundwork to allow the scum to do exactly that, and leave you saying, "See, we warned you about this!".

It all was tailored to the individual. The way you treated Titus was tailored specifically to Titus. The way you treated Yume was tailored specifically to Yume. It looks like you were doing exactly what you needed to do in order to not only gain their trust, but also avoid the noose.

Your posts coming into today felt preplanned
.
It was as if you knew the outcome of the night, that randomidget would die rather than me, that you'd be most likely facing the scenario we're currently in. How would you have predicted this as town?
On that note,
You know I am prone to doubt
.
Your posts today have appealed to my natural-born fears. I am innately afraid. I am innately paranoid. I constantly reasses, with a strong fear that I might be wrong. You have appealed strongly to this fear, exploiting it. You know my personality, and know that I would be reevaluating. You know that I would reexamine. You know how prone to doubt I am, how much when I live longer than I should I begin to question fundamental assumptions.

So you know better than anyone else how well you could argue against me and appeal to my nature as a player. Why should I believe you're not?

You have made mechanical misplays which violate your namesake
.
I'm missing plenty (like you having 'forgotten' about grapes's ability's claimed -4 stress if aimed at scum), but among them are two critical ones. One, I'll mention separately.
A second involves the Creature/farside day. Farside was rather unambiguous about her role: her ROLEBLOCK could not stop factional kills; she blocked Creature.
Her ASCETIC she clarified was full-on action immunity, and COULD block the scum's factional kill, an altered detail of her claim.
She was claiming her ACTION IMMUNITY was triggered.
Yet even after this clarification, you acted as if she had a guilty on Creature she herself said she did not have.

There is a glaring hole in your play this game given your roleclaim
.
You claimed a permaroleblock, but something I noted was that you did NOT include any reference to whether that permaroleblock would affect the scum's factional abilities.
I gave you every chance to clarify this in-thread. I prodded you both on it, by asking for both heads to give the paraphrase. I also asked the question about the way your role functioned, which would have given you an additional chance to lay out the nature of the roleblock. (Admittedly I could have probably done this better.)

And yet, not ONCE did I see you claim the same clause that farside claimed, that her roleblock could not block the scum's factional abilities.
Am I to believe you left out that critical detail of your role PM? You, the mechanically-based player, neglecting to mention a vital part of your role?
Am I to believe you didn't have it spelled out in your role PM and never asked the mod for clarification on the issue?
Or am I to believe your roleblock actually COULD block the factional abilities of scum, when farside's roleblock could not?

No matter which option is the case, it's a difficult pill to swallow. No matter what, there is something absent which should not have any reason to be absent. Why did you not specify this detail? Did it never occur to you? It occurred to me, and I'm NOT the same level of mechanical genius that you two are, so why did you mention absolutely nothing about this, when FARSIDE the less-mechanically-inclined person had the mindfulness to do so?

Furthermore, I admit that this part I haven't gone to check on yet. I want to, but I haven't set aside the time to actually do it yet.

You have a permaroleblock ability.
When farside claimed her own roleblock ability, I recall nothing in the way of you trying to ask her a bunch of questions about it.
You, who had a roleblock ability yourselves.
Where was your attempt to either catch farside in a lie about it, or confirm she really had it?

Where was you pressuring her, for having a nearly-identical ability to your own? You having that ability, you could as Varsoon about it. You could get him to answer questions about yours, and lay traps for farside. Test her knowledge. Force her to ask questions to Varsoon about her role, and if she failed to deliver, you would've had proof that she was scum; if she did deliver, you would have something loosely indicating she was town.

Where was this process? This is something that should have been pathetically simple for you, the mechanical-based players, to have figured out: "farside's claiming a roleblock, we have a roleblock, let's pressure her about it". Yet I don't recall you so much as ONCE bringing this up at any point of the game.

I admit I haven't verified this point. But this is a really fucking huge thing. How could you, the mechanics-based player, make such a mistake as to pass the golden opportunity up?
This also exemplifies my problem with your attitude towards the Creature lynch. If you knew your roleblock couldn't block the factional kill, why would you think farside's could? Why try to lynch Creature that day, rather than try to lynch farside who you'd have good reason to think was a liar?

Yes, you lost your permaroleblock when Titus stole it...but you still STARTED with the ability, and had access to it for, what, three days? You could have asked about it if you had any interest in using it. And furthermore, even after having lost it, because you STARTED with the ability, V would be more than happy to answer questions about your original role PM even if the section questioned about would no longer be valid.

What have you done that was actually town?

You
say
that you have done things which were town. But what have you done that was ACTUALLY town? Aside from the SirCakez lynch, which I put my issues with above?
You cleared Skybird off of mechanics.
You kept suspicion away from DGB for as long as humanly possible.

Your main claim to being town and having towncred is the Beachapalooza event...yet that event didn't catch scum in the voting. The only way that event caught scum is via me using a gunsmith shot on TWIE, something you, personally, had no control of and no way of knowing I would do. You had no way of knowing which power I would choose. You had no way of knowing which target I would choose. You had no way of knowing I'd do that, so you cannot claim credit for it, especially when TWIE wasn't my main choice. (You were my first, you told me via Yume that'd be a waste. MoI was my second, Yume told me not to. This was all very, very public, but my investigation was not.)
The point I'm making here is that the Beachapalooza event didn't actually catch scum by nature of the votes themselves.

What have you done since then? You made a plan with Titus which would have allegedly confirmed you--except Titus died, so there wasn't anything actually town there.
You said you had an early point about TWIE needing to do anything else he'd be scum...yet on D5, you insisted on lynching farside before TWIE. A move which would have favored scum.

You lynched Creature instead of Shadow_step when both were on the line--how was that town?
You encouraged Fuzzy to hold fire when Fuzzy successfully shooting would have proven Fuzzy was town--how was that town?
You encouraged Fuzzy to shoot farside, when we knew farside was immune to the conventional scum nightkill--how was that town?
You can claim these were "the right idea, IN THEORY". You can claim that these were right ideas on principle. You can claim that these moves were technically-correct plays, plays which made sense to do at the time even though in hindsight they were mistakes.

Yet the simple fact is, in hindsight, NONE of them were actually town moves, because NONE of them brought the town closer to victory--quite the opposite, they brought the scum closer to a win each and every time.

So again, what have you done which was actually town? Not "town in theory". Not, "town if used optimally". Not, "town in ideal circumstances". Not, "town with conditions that didn't materialize".
What have you done which was town THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED?

A tl;dr of the above could be this one sentence:
The whole game, you have acted in a way convenient to scum, and yet when called out on it, denied having done so.
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Post Post #12468 (isolation #704) » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:59 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12459, Reasonably Rational wrote:Would you like individual answers to the post above?
Individual answers would probably be best, yes. Easier to read, easier to have engagement on, easier to have dialog with, which was the whole fucking point of me bringing this up in the first place.

My intention with the post was to give you my perspective, my viewpoint, my problems, my thoughts. Having responses to each, having individual thoughts of your own, basically giving the counters and the alternative perspectives to each. I laid my cards on the table, so to speak, on why you've been a scumread. I'm looking in responses here for you to give me reason why not to feel this way.
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Post Post #12469 (isolation #705) » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:28 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12460, Reasonably Rational wrote:you should note that I had to go through that entire pt
post by post
and that with nobody left alive to contradict me. there's absolutely no reason why scum!me would have left that bit she views as damning in there
The problem is I asked you to paraphrase the PT.
You had two options, then.
You could lie, and hope that your lie would go undetected...
...Or you could tell the truth.
You have no reason not to tell the truth if you have no reason to believe that I would view the content as suspicious.

And you've insisted the whole game your PTs were town. You've basically insisted the whole game that every alliance you had was proof that you were not scum. So you have reason to believe that showing this, paraphrasing these topics as I have asked you to do, would be demonstrating a town alignment.

This applies regardless of your alignment.
even she had a fucking guilty on a scum slot and tried to argue against lynching them
Trying to discredit me rather than actually fucking engage me is a pretty moronic move regardless of your alignment by the way. Do this, and you get voted on policy alone. I did NOT post the wall as intent to lynch you. I posted the wall specifically so that you could respond to it. Specifically so you could
address my fucking concerns
.

Saying shit like this?
Not addressing my concerns.
Not ot mention the fact that her entire fucking wall is clearly her looking at the entire game trying to find justification for her belief that we're scum
And again.
This was the fucking problem I raised with your slot.
Discrediting, rather than.
Simply.
TALKING.

I asked for you to talk to me.

This is not you talking to me.
otherwise, why the fuck isn't she wallposting about shiro
Because I haven't done the same amount of research into Shiro as I have for you. You think I don't have a section for why Shiro is scum in my notes?
I do.

You know why I haven't presented it?
Because I haven't had the time to do you both.
Also, I was under the impression engaging you with this would not only be more important, but also, more productive, than the equivalent Shiro version. Why? Because you two should be able to have a long conversation with me about these points. You two should be able to engage me on many things. You two should be able to give me a long conversation.

The equivalent Shiro version might get me some Shiro engagement. I'd expect much of it would be the same as what Shiro has given thusfar, though: "I get you see this, but I'm town tho :/
I don't know what to say, how to show it, what to give you." That is what I expect from Shiro if/when I present the points for Shiro being scum. Is that helpful? Maybe marginally so, but realistically speaking, not very much, now, is it?

In contrast, showing my problems with you, in one post, all at once, would give you time to understand exactly where I am coming from. And from knowing exactly where I am coming from, it would allow you to know where I have gone wrong, and to address me on where I did in fact go wrong.

I have made it clear from the beginning--I want to be shown wrong.
I want to be proven wrong.
I want you to tell me where I am mistaken to have held my belief.

Yet instead of doing this. Instead of doing the simple communication task you always do in your towngames with me.

You are showing this "fuck you" attitude.
You are not showing me anything, except hostility.
I presented things with intent of a dialog. Of engagement. Of asking you questions, and having you provide answers.

That's not something which should be hard!
why the fuck is the FIRST thign she looks into us
Why the fuck would you not be the first thing I looked into?
You've been my focus for days.
So engaging you. Getting these points forward. Talking to you. Addressing you. Is my top concern.
also note that she missed DGB's forced roleblock/role steal thing when talking about scum ways to control town
And I also omitted DGB being ascetic, too, now, didn't I?
DGB to me is almost a nonfactor. While DGB was scum-aligned, it'd take very specific circumstances for DGB to come into contact/communication with her scumteam. As a result, she would have almost zero way prior to then for actually sabotaging the town.
oh, and the fact that we have a long history of not being as stupid as everyone else is in varsoon games
Yeah! So why the fuck were you this "stupid" this game? Everything you've done has helped scum. You've claimed it hasn't. You haven't shown me how it hasn't. In spite of that being one of my main problems.

You, if town, have made MANY misplays this game. MANY. Plural. Not one, not two. MANY.

You, if scum, have played smart. Smarter than basically any other player in the game, to have reached this far.
and not assuming that similar roles mean people are fake claiming
Yeah I'm assuming people are not fakeclaiming. I have good reason to. Every single player, town or scum, has basically been truthfully claiming their entire role the entire game, save scum-specific details. Scum aren't going to lie and claim they have a power they do not. They might lie by omission and not claim a power they
have
...but they're not going to tell a bold-faced lie about having powers they don't. It's possible that scum would lie about the EXACT mechanic of their role. (grapes is a possibility for doing exactly that.) This much is true! But about abilities in general, fuck no, every player town or scum is going to tell the truth.
plus, farsides role was QUITE different from ours. She could just target people and block them, we had to talk people into allying us and then allying someone else
It being a different type of roleblock is irrelevant. You had a roleblock. farside had a roleblock. Did you ask about the nature of farside's roleblock? Did you ask about the nature of your own roleblock? It doesn't matter that your abilities aren't exact duplicates. That's not the issue. The issue is that they're close enough that a town-you should have known about the mechanics involved with a roleblock action, asked Varsoon about any doubt, then asked farside about hers, and understood her clearly.
Oh, and you also need to note the fact that we DID NOT MISS THE FACT THAT GRAPES POWER CLEARS A50 IN THE EVENT THAT GRAPES IS TOWN
we fucking specifically mention that in the post immediatley prior
what I DO fuck up is rmeoving the A50/Shiro team as a possibility due to that same fact
but I DID NOT miss that mechanical point
What you're saying is "I didn't miss the mechanic even though I totally missed the mechanic".
So yes. You did.
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Post Post #12470 (isolation #706) » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:38 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12461, Reasonably Rational wrote:Actually. Fuck off and just fucking lynch us instead of wasting everyone's time pretending to actually evaluate the game.
If I do, that'll be YOUR choice for YOU refusing to engage me.

I raised those points NOT to lynch you.
I raised those points to have you fucking engage me on my issues with your slot.

I raised those points specifically so that I could have you respond.
I raised those points specifically so that you could increase my doubt.
I raised those points specifically so that you could make me rethink assumptions I have made.
I raised those points specifically so that I would have a chance of fucking finally overcoming any lingering doubt I have.
I raised those points specifically so that any and all bias on my part would be washed away.
I raised those points specifically so that you could show me why I am wrong.
I raised those points specifically so that I would be given a better idea of the gamestate, off of your response to them.

If your response were to do the rational thing and DO WHAT I FUCKING ASKED YOU TO DO an simply respond to them.
If your response were to do the reasonable thing and point out all the reasons why my logic is flawed, why I am going down the wrong path.
Then
I would fucking listen to you
because that is what I set out to have done.

But if your response to my points is to go, "Fuck you"?

You have only yourselves to blame, because I am giving you every opportunity.
I did not vote you at daystart.
I did not vote you when you claimed your roleblock, something I saw as a scum ability.
I did not vote you when you began your paraphrases.
I did not vote you in spite of your bad answers to most of my questions to you.
I did not vote you when raising all of those points.
I am still not voting you, even at this very moment, right here and now.

Because I am desperately hoping. Praying. You will give me what I want and what I need.
I am trying not to vote you.

I am trying to listen to the idea of you being town.

Yet if you refuse to fucking engage me, what can I do?

I am not okay losing to you.
I am okay losing to Almost50.
I'm not sure if I'm okay losing to Shiro/grapes.

But I want to be okay losing to you. And I want to not be okay losing to Shiro/grapes.
Engaging me civilly. Like I have to you. (None of my questions were screaming. None of my questions were ranting. They were just questions. Lots and lots of questions, which I want actual damn answers to!) Would be a great way to make that come true.

Engaging me with profanities laden with how shitty I am?

Yeah, not so much.
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Post Post #12471 (isolation #707) » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:46 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12462, Reasonably Rational wrote:We prefucking planned for grapes to use that fucking ability to remove A50, and for random to not use his claimed bubble, and thus put us into 3p lylo?
Given
-randomidget explicitly was listening to you, and
-You specifically told randomidget NOT to bubble?

Yes, you could plan for randomidget not bubbling.
Given that grapes wasn't flat-out siteflaking (even if grapes wasn't online at the given time yesterday ended), it wouldn't be hard to predict grapes would use his ability as soon as they were able to. This would remove either yourself (in which case, you can't post), Almost50 (as was the case), or Shiro. In your post, there are a grand total of three mentions of Almost50 and Shiro by name. Those mentions could easily be swapped around and your post would be EXACTLY the same. As in, if grapes had removed Shiro, you could swap three name mentions, and the post would be literally identical to what it is now. It is vague enough to apply to either person. That's part of the reason it sounds preplanned!

You're smart. You're also thorough. You would be able to ask the mod any questions you needed during the night. You would be able to make simple predictions: randomidget not bubbling (because you fucking TOLD him not to), and then grapes using their ability immediately. These were not difficult predictions to make. In fact, it didn't even have to be at daystart. grapes could use the ability midway through the day, and then you would be able to post the exact same post as what you wrote in .
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Post Post #12474 (isolation #708) » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:34 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12463, Reasonably Rational wrote:What have we done for town? We pointed out exactly how to win with no escape routes for anyone. The only reason it didn't happen is because Grapes freaking LIED to conftown/gem to get released and then lurked out the day.
One, that was my idea before it was yours, and two:
I asked you what you have done that actually WAS protown.
Not "protown in theory".
Protown in practice. Protown in results. Protown in actual, provable game evidence: "We did this. This helped the town."
You've given me plenty of, "We did this, which would have helped the town if not for..."!
Plenty of that!
I didn't ask for you to give me another fucking example of that.

I asked you to give me what you have done that was ACTUALLY town.
1.) Why have you assigned us an absurd burden of proficiency?
Oh, I dunno.
In post 12460, Reasonably Rational wrote:oh, and the fact that we have a long history of not being as stupid as everyone else is in varsoon games
...How about
your own fucking hydra head
?

I agree with what Cerb said there--you have a long history of not being as stupid as everyone else is in Varsoon games.
Yet your play here has, every step of the way, ended up benefiting the scum.
So I'm forced to either believe
A: You were utterly incompetent this game, OR,
B: Simply you were smart scum.

Yes you're not infallible. You make mistakes in games.
You do not make this consistent level of misplay after misplay after misplay.
And when you make a mistake, you own up to it. If you make a bad judgment call, you will admit to having made it.
Not once this game have you admitted to making a mistake.

Again. It's always been someone else's fault. From Yume to Titus to farside to Fuzzy to Almost50 to grapes. Always the blame is on someone else. Not on you.

I even asked you: at what point does your play exceed what could be within reasonable doubt? At what point does your play exceed what could come plausibly from town?
The paranoia you have shown. The amount of bad calls you have made. The number of times you have shifted blame.

At what point do you expect me to say that's beyond you having a shitty towngame?
Because for me you've gone past it--that simple. This is not the towngame I know from you. You make excuses for it. You shift attention elsewhere. You insist that the problem is on my end. You insist that there's no possible reason I could have a justifiable reason to hold these beliefs. You insist that I must fundamentally be wrong because I must be fundamentally biased beyond all salvation. You insist that you have not once done anything wrong this game.

And yet I've asked you what you've done right, and received nothing but, "Well, this would have worked, but..." as a response, when that's the whole fucking problem. It's shifting attention elsewhere, and insisting the problem isn't on your end.
1a.) You DO realize that Titus stole our roleblock ability early on day 4, right? You are basing a large portion of your suspicion on the fact that you believe we would have asked a question about an ability that was permanently removed from us. That's well beyond reachy.
Apparently you didn't read because I explicitly acknowledge this.
You had the ability prior to Titus stealing it--why didn't you ask about it then?
You knew about how the ability worked even after Titus stole it--it was part of your original PM, and just because you no longer had it, would V deny you answers? I'm pretty positive the answer's fuck no. So you could have asked about the ability you STARTED with even though you no longer possessed it. You started with an ability. That ability was relevant to farside's ability. You did nothing even though you no longer had it?

That doesn't sound like the Reasonably Rational I know as town. The Reasonably Rational I know as town would ask about ALL mechanics--past, present, or potential future. Asking about hypotheticals. Asking about every aspect of a given role. In public, in private. Asking every question to a player of interest. And that's the problem. You're using the loss of the ability as justification for not having asked about it...yet that isn't a town-RR mindset. A town-RR has MORE REASON THAN EVER after losing the ability to ask about it, specifically BECAUSE they no longer can use it, and it's still relevant to the game.
2.) You seem to have made up your mind.
If I had made up my mind, I'd have cast a vote.

That's the thing you don't fucking seem to be getting.

I am asking to be shown wrong.

I am asking for a DIALOG.

I've been asking for it for days.

I've been asking for this sort of conversation, this full-blown talk, heart-to-heart, subject-to-subject, about the entirety of every issue I have, for days. Because I am looking to be shown wrong. I am looking for evidence which runs contrary to the evidence I have gathered. I am looking for facts which throw into doubt the conclusions I have come to. Yet you've given me nothing of the sort.
Now you're asking a tremendous amount more time from us, in a very compressed amount of time because of the looming deadline.
And I am truly sorry for this.

If you want to win, you need to put that time and effort in.

I am putting time and effort in.

I am wracking my head over the details.
Trying to make sense of the game, every step of the way.

But I can only do so much.
I can only see certain things.
I think of the game in certain terms.
I am only human. So I can't do everything I want.
And I can't put in all the time I want.
And I can't put in all the effort I wish I could.
I cut corners. Out of necessity. That leads to sloppy work. That leads to a conclusion which is less than ideal. That leads to flawed assumptions on my part.

And that's EXACTLY why I am asking you to do this level of work.

Because I need you to do it.

I need it done.

If you don't do it, then you would in fact lose.
You can fault me for that, but that's just the way things are.

We are on a tight schedule.
A very tight deadline.
I'd have preferred to have posted these earlier.
And for that matter, I would have preferred to have posted these after more was given--after I had done more reading. After you had paraphrased all of your PTs rather than 2.5 of them. I would have preferred all of those things and so much more.
But the deadline is what it is. And so, the situation requires what it requires: the best I can possibly offer you.

The best I can give you.
The best I can offer you.

Is to show you every problem I've had with you.
And allow you to go over it and put to rest, put to bed, as many of those concerns as is possible.

That is what I need.
Can you convince me in any way that you are actually open minded here?
Because you're still alive.
Simple as that.

I wanted this game ended in 2016.
I've wanted this game over so that I could make reference to it.
I've wanted this game just fucking done.
I've wanted this game to be over so that it would finally be something I wouldn't need to spend more time on, because I've spent too damn much time on it already--and it still isn't enough!
I've wanted this game to be over because it's stressful, because it's demanding, because it's hard, because it requires time and effort.
And yet in spite of me wanting the game over.

And in spite of me scumreading you.

I still haven't voted you.

That's all the proof you need.

I
want
to be proven wrong.

Yet you're not looking to prove me wrong. You've been looking to insult me. You've been looking to project on me. To cast images on me. To make assumptions about me. To demean me. That's not what I mean when I say I want to be proven wrong. I mean I want my points to be proven false. Not redirected. Not avoided. Not deflected. "Oh, like YOU are any better than us!", or some similar insult. I want you to actually engage my issues, and show me why they are not valid.

I am sorry if that is a lot of work.

But I've put a lot more than 30 hours into this lylo alone. It hasn't all shown. But it's there.
If you were actually being intellectually honest, you would have looked into the other slots first and decided what you thought about them.
And I intend to! At least intended to! I'm running short on time. It was something I wanted to do. But I ultimately decided that giving you this first was better. Because I can continue to do my work on my own after having posted it. See your responses to it. See your replies to it. And from those, and from my own work, better refine it.

You're acting like what I said was the end-all, be-all, but again.
I haven't fucking voted you.

If I actually was sure you were scum.
If I actually was confident you were scum!

You'd be dead.

But I'm not. I have my doubts. I KNOW I haven't done the research. And it's BECAUSE I know I haven't done the research that I have those doubts! My knowledge is imperfect. My knowledge is incomplete. But you dodging the issues. You dodging my points. Isn't doing you any favors!
You really think we invested the absurd amount of time we have this game and decided "Hey ... let's leave Mastin alive so we can lose."?
No. I think I'm alive because scum expect me to vote wrong.
The thing is. Contrary to what you insist.
I don't see this as being alignment-indicative for anyone.
Almost50-grapes would be almost assured I'd have a lynch. On Shiro, on you, doesn't matter. The idea of a no-lynch would be incredibly difficult if not impossible for me to accept, and so, they would believe I'd lynch and hand them the win. They would be correct, as I am comfortable losing to an Almost50-grapes scumteam. I am comfortable taking all the hate, all the blame for it, because I am reading them as being the most unlikely of the not-literally-impossible combinations. If that is a wrong read, it is my fault.

Shiro-grapes knows that I have held a tunnel on you the last few days.

Yet you're pretending you have no reason to bring me to lylo. You're pretending like the idea you are is impossible. You have just as much reason to, because you unlike Shiro know that I am prone to doubt. Shiro wouldn't know how much I have been going over it. And over it. And over it. Shiro would have no idea that I am constantly hating myself for the level of uncertainty, the level of doubt I have. But you two would.

Furthermore, you act as if you had much of a choice. You needed to kill randomidget. If randomidget lived, then there was the risk of an entirely different gamestate existing today. We could lynch, and then bubble in the unconfirmed, giving us two lynches rather than just the one. randomidget also needed to die if Shiro-grapes was the scumteam, sure. (Almost50-grapes, not so much.) This much is true. Yet if you killed me, then it'd be proof Shiro wasn't scum. Because Shiro wouldn't know I would doubt my scumread on you. And randomidget might not know I would doubt my scumread on you. And between those factors, my death over randomidget's would be evidence enough where you would fall under heavy scrutiny.

The kill was always going to be randomidget. This, regardless of who is scum. (Though I suppose Almost50-grapes has the least incentive to do so, this is also the scumteam I find least likely anyway.) Because the scum, regardless of who they are, expect me to vote wrong. Shiro because Shiro doesn't know me. And you, specifically because you DO. It is specifically because you are competent players that you would leave me alive. It is specifically because you know I would doubt myself that you would keep me alive. (SMITE is an example of me having a townread, which I would have come to doubt--you killed me for it. This game is the opposite: I have a scumread, which I have come to doubt. You would want me kept alive because of it.)
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Post Post #12475 (isolation #709) » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:58 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12464, Reasonably Rational wrote:Oh, right, and we also performed that fantastic feat of play prediction while simultaneously deliberately failing MULTIPLE kills, AND wasting what appeared to be a day kill at ANY point prior to the time when it would automatically win us the game, AND thus setting up a teammate to be killed, AND utilizing an event to give THE PERSON WHO LITERALLY WROTE THE GUIDE TO BEING A COP a fucking cop check.
There's been a grand total of one failed kill which you have going for you:
The failed kill on MagnaofIllusion. (And, by the way, that reason you give also applies to Shiro not being scum, and thus, is basically invalid.)
The failed kill on farside is because farside claimed her ascetic made her immune to everything except the scum's factional kill. She claimed this on D5, when TWIE claimed to have vigged her. She said, "that would have failed, because of my ability, unless it was the scum's factional kill".
After the failed kill on farside, she later realized, "Oh. Wait. It's not an ascetic. It's action-immunity. The scum's nightkill would have failed"--you could have killed her EXPECTING TO SUCCEED, because BY HER CLAIMED ROLE, a scum's nightkill WOULD HAVE SUCCEEDED.
The other kill which didn't happen, the night Almost50 tracked grapes and Fuzzy shot, I have explained already--you as scum
could not
nightkill any player.
There was a night scum were prevented from actioning altogether due to the gems.

Basically, this game has had ten nights, and of them, five have succeeded: N2, N3, N4, N9, and N10.
The grapes kill failing was something you could not have anticipated N1.
N6, the farside kill which you had every reason to believe would succeed failed.
N7, the scum were blocked from actioning.
N8 the scum couldn't nightkill without being conftown. (Mind you: this only applies to a grapes-Shiro or Reasonably Rational scumteam.)
The one and only night you have any credit to is N5.

Also, tempting as it would be to call your description of the Yume kill a scumslip (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt there), I'll instead settle for a generic comment:
Last I knew, we were unaware of how the Yume kill functioned. We know the results: Yume died. We know nothing of the particulars about when it could be used, on who, what the restrictions were, and similar. So saying that scum could use it at "a point where it could win scum the game" is not something we should be able to determine as being possible. What if it was specific to a certain time frame? What if it was specific to certain conditions that were never likely to come up in the game again? We know nothing about the requirements for the scum event. We know it happened, we know what it did, but we don't know what restrictions were in place for it.

And we've already discussed the Skybird point. I'm not in the mood to discuss it again because it's not going to be productive.

As for the cop: again. So I wrote the book on cop play. So fucking what?
The one and only useful result I got from my cop role in SMITE was an innocent on Magna if I recall correctly. (Or apparently Magua.) I had no plans whatsoever to use my role on a player who was actually scum that game. I had given no indication I had plans whatsoever to use my role on a player who was actually scum this game, aside from using it on you which you KNEW I wouldn't do. You KNEW I wouldn't use it on you. I had broadcasted intense desire to use it on MoI.

You also didn't know I would actually take the cop. I probably wasn't taking lightning rod, though I could have. I easily could have taken BP, because BP conftown is an awfully appealing idea. Taking the cop was a risky play. So you had no idea that I would take it, AND even if you did know, you had no way of knowing that of ALL the possible players I would target, I'd actually target scum. Every indication was that I'd waste it on town. I was scumreading Creature. I was scumreading kraska. I was scumreading SnarkySnowman.

All of those players, I was asked at the time why I didn't check! And for good reason. I could have used it on farside for that matter, derp as that play would be (you know, her being ascetic), but I am moronic enough where I would very easily be able to make that mistake, that oversight, and forget about that fact. I could have also investigated Almost50, or put aside grapes paranoia and investigated him. Or maybe Shiro, a lingering scumread of mine in the outliers. All of those players were possible check of mine. There was no reason to suspect I would check scum.

Giving me the Beachapalooza victory was a low-risk, high-reward play: you lost almost nothing from it (I would be given a tool I was most likely to waste and as conftown have more reason to be conftown), but would be given immense towncred for having tried to organize the ability's usage in the first place.
And then we rounded it all off by letting the conftown who has been scumreading us for MONTHS into the endgame with us. Yeah. Right.
Yes! Right! Because, again.
Is there an option other than that?
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Post Post #12476 (isolation #710) » Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:16 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12465, Reasonably Rational wrote:you wanted to actually do your fucking job as conftown.
This much is true! And I AM sorry about that. But it's also something I don't really have a choice about. I am NOT meant to handle these situations. I am NOT meant to be the one to make these kinds of calls. I am meant to be dead early. If I don't die early, then in the midgame. Or lategame. If not, I'm supposed to be lynched, not that that was possible this game given I was conftown but oh well. I don't know how to handle lylo. I don't. Just don't.

I'm taking my best guess here. Doing what I know how to do. Compiling notes. Compiling stuff. Some probably inaccurate. (My notes have stuff in them which I 100% know to not be true, because I wrote them down, then fact-checked, then forgot to remove the obsolete fact. I make note of the notes which are and aren't accurate, of course, but I'm very chaotic, very messy, very disorganized in these notes and it's a bit of a mental nightmare to trudge through but I try anyway.)

I am trying to do the research. I am trying to talk to you. I am trying to engage with you. I specialize in talking! I specialize in the magic of words. I can find patterns, this much is true. Push come to shove, I can do analysis, by compiling what I have available as facts and running it through. But the simple fact is, my statistics, my analysis, is something I always know is flawed. I always know it's biased. I always know it will never be able to be accurate.

So I trust in the magic of talking. I trust in the power of the written word. And that's why I'm engaging you. That's why I want you to actually talk to me. Not make assumptions about me. Not say I'm doing something I'm not. Because...
Then you proceeded to do jack shit for the whole day phase.
This? This is something I haven't done.

I have tried talking to you, but your responses have been slow. Because of their slowness, because of the delays, the real-time interactions I specialize in aren't materializing as much as they need to for me to have what I need. So I've fallen back to secondary focuses. I did research, reading my own advice on how to play games. I tried to find tips on how to play in lylo. (Didn't actually find any.) I compiled lists of advice, lists of tips, lists of things which might be useful. I flailed about. I AM flailing about.

I don't know what I am doing.
I am the first to admit that!
I'm doing shit, yes, but it's...well, shit.
I have done stuff. I haven't been idle. It's just that the stuff I'm doing isn't necessarily what would optimally, what would ideally, be done, because yes I don't actually know what that is!

The simple fact of the matter is.
I want you to answer my points.
All of them, as much as you can.

I KNOW you won't be able to answer everything.
I KNOW what you give me might not be what I'm looking for.
I'm not expecting you to give me every answer.

But I'm asking you to give me good direction on where I am going wrong.
So I gave you my points. Why I am where I am.

When I came into this day phase, I had a clear plan of action.
Do research.
Ask about roles.
Ask about paraphases.
Ask you to case each other.
Ask you to summarize the game.
List my problems with your slot.
Respond to your cases on each other.
Ask about your roles, your paraphrases.
And read your reactions to all of this.
While also continuing, every step of the way, to do research.
Until the very last minute of the game.

I haven't accomplished that all. Less than half, honestly. But I am giving what I can, to give YOU what I can.
I could have kept those grievances to myself, and either not revealed them at all or revealed them upon hammering you. I could have done that.

The reason I didn't is because I WANTED YOU TO FUCKING RESPOND TO THEM.
And from your response to them, BETTER READ YOU.
Is that so hard to understand?
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Post Post #12477 (isolation #711) » Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:36 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12472, Reasonably Rational wrote:We already dumped every spare moment of our daily lives into engaging with you, and all you did with that engagement was look for things to supplement your previous death tunnel walls.
So why the fuck am I not voting you right now?
I had this 'augmentation' to the "death tunnel walls", now, don't I?

The reason I'm not voting you is because it's NOT a fucking death tunnel wall.

I POSTED THAT SPECIFICALLY SO YOU WOULD ENGAGE IT.
I POSTED THAT SPECIFICALLY SO THAT YOU WOULD SHOW ME WHY I AM WRONG.
I POSTED THAT SPECIFICALLY TO GET YOU TO KNOW WHY I WAS SCUMREADING YOU, AND GIVE YOU AN EXACT WAY OF ADDRESSING IT.

I posted it because the engagement I had with you wasn't enough by itself. I posted it because I needed to up the engagement. I posted it because I needed you to address those things.
I posted it fully expecting you to, upon seeing it, go through why it's not right. Go through why it's inaccurate. Go through why it's not the case.

And then from having done that, I would finally be able to move on.

Again, I am not voting you. I haven't voted you. I've every chance in the world to vote you. But I'm not voting you BECAUSE I AM STILL WAITING.
AND WANTING.
TO BE PROVEN WRONG.

And that's something you could do. Just by fucking engaging me in the areas I want to be engaged.

Your role was one area I wanted to engage you in.
Your PTs, one of the main areas people were townreading you, was one of the main areas I wanted to engage you in.
My issues with you across the game, which I called in a tongue-in-cheek fashion my grievances with you, I wanted you to engage in.

Because I want to get that better read on you.

AND YOU AREN'T LETTING ME.

I have made simple requests.
I have asked for a lot of work to be done, yes. I've asked for a lot, I know that. Maybe too much, because I am unrealistic. Because I am overly ambitious. I set a goal beyond what I can actually achieve, what you could actually give me. But I am still doing everything I am. Specifically to get a better read on you.

I asked you questions. I explained to you my viewpoint. I showed you WHAT I HAVE BEEN THINKING. I showed you why I think that.

So why the fuck aren't you celebrating? You have the roadmap to my thought process. You have everything you need to answer me. You just go and answer my questions, my concerns. You address my points. You go to explain how my viewpoint isn't correct. You go provide an alternative viewpoint. You go to explain your view on matters. You explain why.

Why the fuck is that so hard for you to do?

I asked you to do something.
THAT IS MY IDEA OF ENGAGEMENT.
Not whatever bullshit idea you're suggesting.
I'm conftown. I want a dialog. I ask certain things to be done for that dialog. You do those things, you are entering a dialog.

Yet you are refusing to do those things. You are refusing to talk to me. You're talking AT me. You're dismissing me. You're ranting at me. You're being angry at me. You're not understanding me. And I don't get how a town-you couldn't be understanding me. A scum-you I can see frustrated at this. At how many points I raised and why they're there like that, after all I have done and you have done. But a town you I simply don't understand here acting this way.

Why isn't it the case that a town-you is just, calmly, seeing that I gave you my thoughts, and now responding to those thoughts?
Why isn't it the case that a town you is just responding to my points as I asked you to do?
Why isn't it the case that a town-you is actually working with me the way I ask of you?
Why is it that you are assuming I am a lost cause? When I haven't even fucking voted you yet!

I don't understand.

So make me fucking understand.
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Post Post #12478 (isolation #712) » Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:50 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12473, Reasonably Rational wrote:You AREN'T evaluating things objectively, and that's on YOU, not us.
Yes! I'm not evaluating things objectively!

I can't!

I fundamentally fucking can't!

It's not in my nature!
I literally can't. It goes against every bone in my body. It's not me. It's not who I am. Not even remotely.
I am subjective.
I am a walking talking opinionated person. I use instinct. I use gut. I use feelings! I use what "seems" right. I use what I remember. I use what I see. I use what I have felt. I use those things, not pure logic, not pure objectivity.

Expecting me to do any differently is expecting something that will never happen.

I'm not an objective person.
Never have been, never will be.

So what can I do? I do the best to work within my limitations, and within that limitation, there is an inherent desire to reach out. That is what my fucking grievances were. A reach-out! You are acting like it was me blindly calling you scum with no rhyme or reason...but it was me doing exactly the opposite in intent! I was aiming to get you to address me! I was aiming for your feedback.

Because what can you do? You can't make me objective. But you can address my concerns. You can address my points. You can try to make me see things differently. You can try to make me feel differently. You can try to make me alter my view, my perspective on the game, by addressing me, by giving feedback, by engaging me, by actually going through and helping me see why you're town.

So why the fuck aren't you?
You know we're town, but you're too afraid that you're wrong.
This is exactly the problem!
I am afraid I am wrong.
You KNOW I am afraid that I am wrong.
So why the fuck are you not trying to address my fears of being wrong?
Before I go though, could you do me a favor and consider that, if scum!me was able to accurately predict that set of actions...how does today play out with random, who you just said was listening to me, in your place?
Too many variables in play.
Does grapes still trigger their event?
Does grapes still take Almost50?
Does grapes still trigger their event immediately?
Does randomidget ask the same questions about the wincon that I did?
Do you bother to ask the same questions about the wincon you do?
Furthermore, does randomidget have me to listen to when I'm dead? (You seem to overlook this as an influencer. With randomidget dead, I don't have randomidget's feedback. With me dead, randomidget has me.)
How much does randomidget listen to me?
Would randomidget just no-lynch and bubble someone? (Not quite the same as lynching.)

These are all things you would need to ask and need to accurately predict. I'm the gal who thinks up an infinite number of scenarios. I think of every possible variable, every possible outcome. And even I have trouble crunching the above math. With randomidget alive, there's so many variables in play it's impossible to know what happens.

With me alive, there's only two:
Does grapes remove a player and if so, who...
...And what will I, in lylo, actually do?

That is a very comparatively simple equation to crunch.
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Post Post #12479 (isolation #713) » Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:58 pm

Post by mastin2 »

I will admit on one point though:
I had a secret agenda to have the game reach at least 500 pages. :P

That wasn't something I really needed from you, though. I would have spammed for 100 posts if necessary to get us to that mark. :P

Now I can say that, instead of the game being almost 500 pages, I cast the game-losing vote FOR a 500-page game!
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Post Post #12484 (isolation #714) » Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:16 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Okay.
Before I begin to read, yet alone respond, I think I should share this important bit.

I don't have it in me to vote Shiro.
For better or for worse, I apologize if that's the correct answer, I just don't have it in me. I know that I asked you to treat today like a traditional lylo, in which a Shiro lynch was the alternative to lynching you, RR. But before you go and accuse me of wasting your time (even though I have to apologize because while not my intention that was in fact wasting your time), this isn't something which was always there and which I'm just now telling you.

Rather, it's a feeling that has formed somewhat out of the blue.
Last night (as in, Tuesday, not game night), I thought this would be an issue of Shiro + grapes vs. Reasonably Rational.
Yet now.

Now, I don't think I have it in me. If YOU feel that's the correct option now, then you should probably shift your attention to telling me why to lynch Shiro, because you'd need to do exactly that if you wanted me to lynch Shiro. Yet last I checked, last I read, you actually sounded like overall you were leaning against that option ANYWAY (do feel free to correct me there if I am wrong), that you were leaning towards it being Almost50-grapes anyway. So if you strongly (or even decently!) feel Almost50-grapes is the scumteam, what I'm saying here is basically of no concern to you, because it becomes a binary choice:
Vote RR before deadline...
...Or don't vote RR, and let deadline expire and by default, no-lynch.

In short, I'm removing lynching Shiro (and by implication, Shiro-grapes) from the table.
And I'm placing the Almost50-grapes scumteam I had previously eliminated
back
on the table.

I don't really need to justify to this to you especially if you happen to AGREE with me on this, but.
I feel the need to explain all my actions quite frankly at this stage, so I shall at least try.

Basically. I just. I just don't see Shiro as scum anymore. Not at all. I have notes which lay out reasons Shiro
could
be scum. I lay out possibilities. But when push comes to shove, I asked myself, "Do I actually believe this point?" And the answer is no. No, I don't. Every reason I can think of for Shiro to be scum, doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel like it fits. It feels like, "okay so sure that's POSSIBLE", but it also feels like, "but fuck no that's not ACTUALLY the case". I don't think this will change, no matter how much research I do. No matter how many points I bring up. No matter how many things I find. No matter what I look into.

I simply don't think I will actually, sincerely, feel Shiro could be scum. And more than that. I feel Shiro is town. Every time Shiro has been in the thread, Shiro has given content which has felt like it was town. Especially today, but on prior days as well. When I gave Shiro a challenge, Shiro answered it. When I wanted Shiro's explanations, the way Shiro explained felt incredibly town. While Shiro hasn't given me all of what I asked for, Shiro looks to be trying to figure it out. When asked for comparing Shiro-RR, Shiro's answer also looked town. And then, most recently, Shiro gave . I was not expecting Shiro to give me that. That was something which just popped up. And it was just...

...Town.
Every bit, every core, every facet of it, felt it was town.

For that reason, for better or for worse, even if it loses us the game, I'm not voting Shiro. I'm making that call. I'll take the blame, the loss, the responsibility, the hatred, for that if it is a misjudgment on my part. But at this point, I have reached the stance that I am okay losing to Shiro because I simply don't see Shiro as actually scum, no matter how hard I try.

However.
I am no longer currently okay losing to an Almost50-grapes scumteam. (If I was still okay with losing to Almost50-grapes, and you add in being okay losing to Shiro, then I'd be voting you.) They've shifted from out-of-focus to main-focus. Here and now, a lot of my effort is going to be spent going over that combo, and comparing it to you solo. I haven't read what you've posted yet. But I'll tell you what I need.

What I need is to feel wrong.
I don't need to feel bad--those two terms are NOT synonymous.
You have no fucking clue how bad I feel already. I don't need your posts to be helping me feel worse because there's nothing you could say which could possibly be a worse insult than the ones I am throwing at myself: failure. Miserable human being. Pathetic. Moron. Idiot. Naive. Foolish. Despicable. I feel that way about myself already, so you trying to amplify those feelings, not productive.

But feeling WRONG?
Feeling WRONG,
that
is productive. Because if I feel wrong, if I feel like my scumread on you is wrong.
That is how you're going to get me to not vote you. (Which, as laid out above, is me voting for a no-lynch by default.)
If I feel it is WRONG to scumread you, then I won't vote you.

That's what the game boils down to right now: does voting you feel right, or does voting you feel wrong?

That's the best, most honest feedback I can give you right now on where I am at the moment. If you want to live, I need to feel wrong (not bad). If I feel wrong, I no-lynch. (Because I'm not lynching Shiro.) If after all is said and done I don't feel wrong, then all I can do is follow what feels right. (Which would be voting you.) I do apologize if this is not something you want to engage me in terms of. I also apologize if a lot of what I'm saying here is redundant with what you have said in the stuff I'm about to read but currently haven't. (Basically, if you already focused on making me feel wrong rather than feeling bad, than a huge swath of this post becomes redundant because you were already doing that.)

But that's the simplest way I can think of to put the dilemma.
Not, "is RR scum or not?".
Not, "am I okay losing to X or not?".
Not, "is this worth the risk, or is it not?".
Just, "Am I wrong, or am I not?"
If I am wrong, no lynch. If I am not, RR lynch. That's the best way I can think of to...well, think of the situation.
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Post Post #12485 (isolation #715) » Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:23 pm

Post by mastin2 »

(^Point of clarity in case it's an issue: pointing out my past failures isn't "feel I'm wrong" type. It's "feel I'm bad" type. Any pointing out of my failures would make me feel shitty if I wasn't already feeling like the scum of the earth already. But pointing out past failures of mine is not going to make me feel like I am wrong. Just need that out there in case it's relevant.)
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Post Post #12486 (isolation #716) » Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:23 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Also fuck, might lose power again. :?
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Post Post #12487 (isolation #717) » Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:09 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12481, Reasonably Rational wrote:that plan fucking worked.
No, it didn't.
The plan, as stated, was to catch scum voting, similar to the Suikoden mechanic.

The power was never part of your plan. You wanted it in the hands of a conftown player, yes, but the main purpose of your event was, by your own words, to try and catch scum rigging the event.

Yet we KNOW that they blended in.
For you to be town, grapes blended into the Titus wagon.
Regardless of whether you are town or not, FOUR SCUM voted me. (Skybird + buddy; Almost50 + buddy OR RR + buddy.)

In that regard, the event was a complete failure. The thing it was designed to do, catch scum rigging, it didn't do at all. Because again. Either four scum voted conftown (me), or SIX scum voted conftown (me + two on Titus, via grapes+scumbuddy). The very thing it was designed for, didn't happen. It didn't materialize at all.

The plan in that regard was therefore an utter failure, because scum were able to blend in.
This was your intended plan; you talked to Titus about it.
This was Titus's intended plan; she knew the Suikoden mechanic.
This was my intended plan; I knew of the Suikoden mechanic as well thanks to spectating that game. Fuck, I developed the claim order list.

We all knew the plan. Yet either FOUR, or SIX of the scum (the entire scumteam in the case of six; the entire scumteam save one in the case of four) voted in ways where they COULD NOT BE CAUGHT using the plan. The scumteam, regardless of its composition, blended in: they predicted your plan before it was executed. Because we know the voting totals are accurate, and we know how scum voted as a result. Scum did not vote for scum, as intended. Scum voted for the conftown, in even amounts.

Even if Titus wasn't conftown.
Even if farside/NotChara weren't the third-highest voters.
Even if both of those factors were true.

Scum still voted for me with FOUR of their members.
Scum still WANTED me to win the event. And to not be caught having made me the winner.
It got YOU, a CONFTOWN, an investigate in a game which lacked any other HARD investigative abilities ... at all.
NotChara had one which was identical in nature to your event gift (detecting kills), but other than that, this point also applies to Almost50. His power to track refilled on season finales. One shot prior to D4, one shot prior to D8, and a third shot prior to D12. D12 is something we'd be unlikely to reach, but if we did, we'd get a fourth shot. That is a hard investigative, which has utility over the whole game (albeit limited). Beachapalooza's utility was one-time, albeit for a stronger ability.
it still CAUGHT SCUM.
But not as a result of anything you did.
I
got the guilty.
*I* chose the cop power.
And then *I* chose my target.
So *I* was the one who was responsible for getting that result.
It was your event, that's true enough. But once you handed me the victory, you stopped being the one who could claim credit for the usage of it, because that was MY doing. My choice. Not yours. Something you had no control over. Something your
only
influence over was getting me to not target you. That's literally the only credit you can claim for the cop investigation: by claiming miller-variant to it, you made me not target you. That's it.

When I asked what you have done to produce pro-town results.
I want your contribution to having produced pro-town results.
Not, "I helped you make your contribution!".
It being your event doesn't matter.
Because with me having the power, it wasn't you who was responsible for the guilty. It was me.

What you
can
do is explain to me how I'm wrong about the Beachapalooza event having not been protown in of itself, but I sure as fuck don't see how I could be wrong there given it is 100% objective FACT that scum blended in by voting conftown, either four of them or six of them.

Basically, you can't claim credit for something you didn't do.
You handed me the investigation, yes--but that's it. And I put no value in you doing that.
Because that wasn't your given primary goal. It was a secondary goal, sure! Give a conftown player the reward. That was an established objective you achieved by having me win it. (With the aid of four scum, mind you.)
It wasn't your stated primary objective. It wasn't what you were aiming for first and foremost, above all else. You were aiming to catch scum voting...and scum were not caught in the voting.

As a result, Beachapalooza was a failure. Giving me the power meant nothing--you'd do that as either alignment, especially since you had no way of knowing I'd go cop, and no way of knowing I'd target scum. (Well, if you're scum you'd know I wanted to target you, but you claimed I'd get a guilty on you so you knew I wasn't going to target YOU, and had no way of so much as SUSPECTING I'd target scum--literally every scumread I held at the time was town. I scumread randomidget/MoI/SnarkySnowman/kraskaesque, among others. Me investigating any of them would do you no harm.)
It makes sense that we did it the way we did because we're town and getting YOU the prize along with the extra information for town. That's fucking win-win for town and "why the fuck would you do that?" for scum.
It's not "why the fuck would you do that?" for scum.
It's "why the fuck would you NOT do that?" for scum.

I don't see any reason whatsoever you wouldn't do it as scum.

Beachapalooza's primary purpose was to catch scum in the votes: it failed to do so.
Beachapalooza's secondary purpose was to give a role to conftown: it succeeded in doing so.
But let me ask you this: why the fuck is that something beyond your ability as scum,
especially given you were being lynched
, and the main reason you WEREN'T lynched is because of your Beachapalooza ability?
You literally told everyone, "Please don't lynch us until we've used our Beachapalooza ability!"
That gives you strong incentive, as scum, to make the event give you town credit.
That gives you strong incentive, as scum, to make the event give you a way to continue to be townread even after it concludes, rather than being run up immediately after it has.

Am I wrong?

Because quite literally, you were up for the lynch both D1 and D2.
You panicked, claimed your ability, and tried to get it to save you, pleading that you had a strong pro-town ability.
You used it.
And then people townread you for it.

What in that process doesn't make sense for you to do as scum?
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Post Post #12488 (isolation #718) » Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:11 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12482, Reasonably Rational wrote: "I would appreciate if you took the time to check in AS SOON as you're able to. I have time tonight, we can have a conversation.
I'll be here for as long as my power is.

And I'll make you a promise.

Deadline's a little over a day away.

I'll make my call in 24 hours.

Doing as much work as I can in that timeframe.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #12489 (isolation #719) » Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:21 pm

Post by mastin2 »

I don't think I'm going to actually be able to respond to much of what Cerb's saying in .
I don't have the words for a lot of it.
Before you go saying that's a betrayal of trust, Cerb: I'd have something to say if I
disagreed
.
Me NOT having words to say for a lot of it means
you gave me what I was looking for
.
It means you are making me think.
And it means you are making me feel wrong.
And it means that you are forcing me to reevaluate, to think over some prior assumptions on my part because yes you are in fact: getting through to me.

So I'm going to say this in advance: anything in 12483 I DON'T respond to, is something where I am thinking, "That's...actually a good point."

So, please don't feel insulted if I'm only responding to a small portion of the post, and please don't feel like it's selectively picking up on the weakest points while ignoring the rest. This is me telling you that it's just going to be me engaging you on the things which I feel there needs to be more engagement on.
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Post Post #12490 (isolation #720) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:26 am

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12483, Reasonably Rational wrote:In a scum!SC universe without scum bussing, it was quite improbable that he would get lynched.
And yet, for me to believe you are town, it requires exactly that:
I am believing Shiro is town.
grapes did not START the game as scum. (This I am 100% firm on, as an absolute fact.)
As a result, if you were town, SirCakez would be an all-town lynch. (Well, effectively so.)
Why would I choose to be the fulcrum of the lynch rather than rallying the troops to push elsewhere?
There were signs of exactly that, were there not? And when those attempts didn't materialize, the lynch went through anyway.

The SirCakez wagon had no scum counterwagon.
So it's not a question of "why would a scum player not try to rally the troops elsewhere?".
Because we know they didn't. Regardless of who is scum, we know they failed to do this, because there was no scum counterwagon. None really. The closest was farside (Almost50) at 3. Shiro (Skybird) had 2. McMenno had 2 but none were scum. So we know for a fact...scum were not wagoning town. Asking, "Why didn't we?" is pointless as a result, because we know scum didn't.
I've pointed out the incredibly stupid things I, as scum, would have had to do up to this point. You still haven't actually addressed these points to my satisfaction actually. Is your position that we masterfully dodged things while making some fundamental mistakes, or is it that the fundamental mistakes were in fact ploys on our part?
Option C: the scumteam this game, while playing
well
, has not played perfectly. This is undeniably a fact, yes?
This applies regardless of who is scum: the scumteam has managed to evade every town trap, every town maneuver. This is the type of play I describe as the "scum mastermind".
But the thing about even the best scum players is that they are not infallible. They are human. They can make mistakes, make a miscall, make a misjudgment: something which
seemed
like a good idea at the time, but which in hindsight proved to be an error.

Would you say it is beyond your capability to make a mistake in a scum ability when scum?
Of course it's not. You make mistakes
less
than a normal scum player would. You have a tighter grasp of mechanics than most players, so you usually understand the consequences of your actions. Yet you can fuck up.
And when you fuck up as scum, what do you do as scum?
Be honest.

You already know the answer: You self-burden-of-proficiency with damage control and say, "If we were scum, we would be competent enough
not
to do that".
I am FAR more paranoid now than I have been in the past.
Is it fair to say I am paranoid of your alleged paranoia? :P
I actually don't recall at all how the DGB wagon formed and was pushed. What I do remember is that you say the SC wagon was allowed to happen because he lost all value once DGB and KC had their interaction...yet after the SC flip was revealed, and I would have had every expectation that the entire town would turn on DGB...I instead chose to protect her?
The thing is, you were distancing the slot while still protecting it: you were pointing out things which were bad, but making excuses to not actually lynch her.
This continued even past the Klingoncelt lynch.

You held a stance that Klingoncelt's flip would, if containing certain details, be bad for DGB...and it wasn't until Klingoncelt was in fact flipped that you did exactly that and condemn DGB. Prior to that point, you were still taking that same distancing-while-defending approach.
Skybird: I actually have no recollection of my early game interactions with skybird. I don't recall ever saying that she was probtown or anything because of the alliance with Steven, but Drixx may have?
That would be this series of posting:
In post 864, Reasonably Rational wrote:
Spoiler: You ranting about Steven Universe
Umm... we were Steven in the first SU game. Our big thing was that we could IC on day 5. On day 3 we had two people and ourselves thrown into a permanent alliance. (Mastin and Xtoxm). We then lynched a scum that day who had strongman on season finale and so we actually ended up using the same logic. We concluded that Varsoon would not have given scum knowledge of who we were so they could just turn around and murder us the next night without us having any reliable way to avoid it (there were two ways for us to avoid it: luck into lynching the strongman before first finale (this is what happened) or another town slot had to be both alive, allied with us, have a 1-shot per game ability available and USE it to commute us and them out of the game on the finale night). We were so certain that it made no sense to make an IC and then have it get killed 99% of the time before it could ever become IC that we concluded scum would not have been given access to our identity.
Now ... Varsoon does like to change things up as a mod so I wouldn't go so far as to say Skybird automatically must be scum ... but I sure as hell am not going to assume town after what happened in the original game.

Long story short: farside was being widely scum read but we put together a case for why they were almost certainly town. We were running a reaction test on them before we unvoted and moved on to plan we had stated. The plan we had stated called for us lynching Grapes (claimed miller) that day, someone else the next day and the final scum the day after.

Grapes, ignoring our really strong case for why farside must be town decided to hammer farside and end the day rather than take his lynch, which he knew he had to eat because of being and claiming miller. His action took us from guaranteed win to a last day where we had someone who had been kind of super trollish (think firebringer, only WAY worse) plus our two day 3 alliance people still alive.

Since we assumed scum would not have been gifted knowledge of who we were, that really strongly influenced our thinking and we ended up lynching the super-troll player, and Xtoxm was the last scum.

So yeah ... ummm. Please don't make unfounded assumptions. Please.
^Drixx post. "Skybird could be scum for the ability, or not, let's not assume anything off of role".
In post 2308, Reasonably Rational wrote:
In post 2305, Killthestory wrote:how do you feel about Skybird rr
I have absolutely no feelings about Skybird at all, which is basically how I always feel about her posting. I'll look at her ISO after I finish SC's, but she's generally fairly low impact on the game so I rarely actually ISO dive her.
^Cerb head. "I have no opinion of her".
In post 2629, Reasonably Rational wrote:Pedit: we used that same flawed logic to lose SU 1(plus some other stuff, but that was what ultimately drove the lylo mislynch), except we had EVEN MORE REASON to think scum wouldn't possibly be given confirmation of Stevens identify than you do, and we were STILL wrong.
Don't be us. Don't close your mind to the possibility. Evaluate Skybirds play on its own merit.
^Cerb post, saying: "Evaluate Skybird on her own merit".
In post 2678, Reasonably Rational wrote:Skybird ISO(previous post included in this one)

Spoiler: reduction for length
First three posts are fluff, then an ally request.

: willing to ally with Yume.
: Questions FB about having mastin who he townreads in his lynch pool. Tells him to leave Yume alone.
: At Farsides suggestion, invites Foxbird to ally with her, responds to Drixx's confusion and shows willingness to ally with RR as well.
: Asks CoolDog if he's read the thread and informs him of the ally state for mastin and RR.
: FB responds to her in , saying mastin is in his lynch pool for annoyance, and Skybird asks him what's annoying him.
: Farside feels town to her.
: RR null, KC and mastin town, CoolDog scum. What reasons did you have for the KC and CoolDog reads at this time?
: Calls Xkfyu's "sucking up to OWK". Because they voted Creature? Because of the exact verbiage they used? Why exactly is this sucking up? Asks for an explanation of OWK's town read on CoolDog. Consistent with their scumread on him, but that read is still unexplained.
: MIsreads OWK's explaining their CoolDog read as feeling bad in their guts, without any evidence in thread(which is a weird conclusion to arrive at, sounds like the sort of thing that make someone null, not "might be town") as a read on FB, and asks if he's ballsy enough to be scum and call himself such all game.
: OWK clarifies that the answer previously was about CoolDog, Skybird agrees regarding the CoolDog read and reasoning, and calls it strange that CD asked mastin to ally after she said she was never going to ally with anyone.
: Suggests snarky may be "trying too hard" as a devil's advocate, and disagrees that snarky is "so town". How town is Snarky then Skybird?
: Votes NC. Why did you do this? Whose points against him swayed you?
: Asks SC about his town read on NC. Consistent.
: Confirms that the blank vote on Snarky did not come from her slot.
: Gut town read on RR, willing to lynch DGB(because of the empty iso, or because of the bad reason/lack of reason for the vote on RR?). Questions SC's justification for the townread on NC. Good questions and points.
: Cakez is a scum lean.
: Willing to ally farside22, questions her on her SC townread.
: Agrees with the points everyone else has been making about SC, reiterates the question from 2192.
: Votes Shiro with Farside, with no reason given. What were your thoughts here? What are they now?
: Asks shiro for his reads.
: In response to Shiro's ansewr to "going back and forth on KC too, asks why he scumreads Mcmenno, doesn't have any thing to say about any of his other reads. Why didn't you ask him why he scumread A50?
Nothing of note past this point.


Super minor town read overall. I see attempts to put things together when she's here, even if she's not doing it too much.
^Cerb post. Holds Skybird as a minor townread, basically nulltown. And here's the funny thing, Cerb.

The post in question WASN'T a Drixx post.
Your next mention of Skybird after having her as a minor townread?
In post 6053, Reasonably Rational wrote:Town/unlikely to be aligned with scum:(important distinction)
Titus
Klingoncelt
mastin2
Yume
Farside22
Xkfyu(this is because of a realization I had about the potential meaning of some things he's said which I won't be revealing)
Firebringer <<bubbled by gems in a way that could have resulted in his death apparently, but did not. This implies certain things to me.
Skybird <<< PT with steven
killthestory <<<fake IC claim

So yeah. The people above are unlynchable yo.
...An unexplained bump up to absolutely unlynchable. The given reason? "She has a PT with Steven". The very fucking thing the above posts I quoted from BOTH HEADS warned against doing multiple times. Why did Skybird, overnight, jump from "minor town, off of play" to "unlynchable town, from claim", when your earlier stance was to NOT clear her off of that?
Fuzzy vig: No. No. No. We explicitly told fuzzy that if he was going to shoot anyone he should shoot S_S because that shot would guard against the worst case scenario, which is also what shooting farside was intended to do. Yes, in hindsight we should have said "Either shoot S_S or don't shoot anyone", instead of asking him not to shoot and then suggesting that if he did shoot, it be at S_S. That was poor communication on our part once we had realized that a proper shot would prevent the threat we were concerned about. Call it irrational paranoia all you want, we saw a clear and present danger and did everything in our power to ensure a game loss wouldn't occur outright because people were being short-sighted.
I already addressed the farside shot at length in the past. In short, everything about her play was scum!me's wet dream, and she was the easiest possible 3p lylo mislynch, since all 3p lylo's required the removal of her defenders.
I'm quoting this to say that this is still something I have an issue with--it is
not
something you've said which made me go, "That's actually a good point". But, unlike most of what I've brought up as responses...I can't think of how to verbalize a response here. Maybe I can do it later, but this is basically me saying: "This part's not satisfactory, but I don't know how to explain why it's not satisfactory".
You suggest that the night kill variants were "less certain", and you'd be right if we still had our ability...but we don't.
While this is probably something which is true, is there any way you can definitively PROVE you don't have your ability? I believe you have indicated before there is, but this is a formal request to restate it for the record, just to be sure.
Umm. Don't put words in my mouth. I am pretty fucking sure I did not claim that "farside deserved it".
That's a succinct paraphrase on my part. Are you going to deny you made posts about all the things farside did that were scummy, even after she flipped town? Because I sure remember plenty. And for me those posts boiled down to "farside deserved it". You can argue that exact phrasing is too harsh. You can argue there are perhaps better terms to be used. Maybe, "because farside was that scummy, and was too unbelievable". Or something to that effect, if you feel "farside deserved it" is too accusatory. The point still stands that it was shifting blame onto farside and not accepting any of it for yourselves.
And no, protecting TWIE was not Titus' idea. Ensuring Farside was lynched ASAP was.
The two are functionally identical. I wanted TWIE dead. You pushed farside instead, shielding yourself behind Titus as justification for not lynching scum. So it was Titus's fault, or farside's fault, if you prefer, but it was still you placing the blame elsewhere, not on yourself.

Basically every point here you're saying, "I wasn't saying they were responsible! I was saying this different thing...which says they were responsible". So my point still fucking stands. Even right now, in this very damn post, you're shifting blame away from your slot.
Spoiler: blahblah
No, mastin, you have NOT been objectively right at almost every turn. You've been stubborn. You've refused to admit you were wrong.When we've responded to your posts, you've brushed our responses aside as inconsequential, and done EXACTLY what you accuse us of doing, strawmanned them.

The ONLY request you've made that was "simple" that I didn't deliver on in a timely fashion was you asking me to propose a game winning plan, and yes, that was a misunderstanding.

Wtih regards to the difference in our attitude towards you: You've NEVER gone so far out of your way to paint us as scum. From the moment you DELIBERATELY misinterpreted a post I made some days back asking you to explain how something would benefit me (or something along those lines, I honestly can't remember the post details), I've viewed you as hostile and unreasonable, and there's nothing you've done to make me feel any differently. You admit this is just a rehash of things you've said before, THINGS WHICH I HAVE INDEED ADDRESSED FOR THE MOST PART, BUT WTIH RESPONSES YOU SIMPLY CHOOSE TO BRUSH OFF.
Spoilered to say: this is "feel bad" posting.
And not "feel wrong" posting.
Regarding us never admitting fault: Look at your voting history throughout the game. Look at the pushes you made. There were some good ones, yes, but there were also PLENTY of bad ones...and you haven't displayed contrition for those.
Aside from how that is easily shown to be objectively false given that I have on multiple occasions admitted to every shortcoming I've had, aside from how behind the scenes I've been wracked with doubt ever since the Mathblade lynch showed my approach to the game was laced with arrogance, aside from how this is more feel-bad posting rather than feel-wrong posting, aside from all of that and probably more: deflecting the issue by saying, "You did it too!", is not going to earn you favors.

I wasn't looking for you to say, "mastina, you did this".
I was looking for you to address my fucking point.
Saying "you did this" (especially when this is actually one fucking thing I
haven't
done--many of the sins you accuse me of I am in fact guilty of but NOT this one)? Not addressing my fucking point.

You have not admitted fault. Not once. You have made misplay after misplay this game. And after each misplay, you have denied responsibility for it having been a misplay.
I'm not sure what you're referring to in a lot of these stance shifts, actually. A shitload has happened.
Prime example: On Episode 9, when we mislynched Fuzzy, you had Almost50 as your strongest townread. You posted many plethora of reasons for why he wouldn't be scum, and were his strongest defender.
On Episode 10, you had Almost50 as your preferred lynch...but more than that, he was actually your strongest scumread. It wasn't that you were lynching him because of a plan to lynch him. You were lynching him because suddenly, all the above evidence was washed away and he was now scum for...well, I don't recall the reasons off the top of my head so I'm not going to claim you used stretchy reasons because I don't actually remember what reasons you used. But you were using actual reasoning to call him scum. Not "this is POE". Not, "this is part of the plan". He was actually
scum
to you.

Those types of shifts with no given explanation are what I am talking about. You discarded previous long-held opinions when they became inconvenient stances to hold. And you've been doing that the whole game. Can you name a stance you have held which was inconvenient to hold? farside doesn't count, for a myriad of reasons. I mean, aside from farside, is there a single stance you have held which was inconvenient for you to have held at that time? A stance which you were firm on, and yet which was something that was actually detrimental to you, yet you held it anyway because you're town and your reads are what they are?

Do you have so much as a single non-farside instance of a read of that type in the entire game?

I saw none. Instead, I see stances as most convenient to be held.
First of all, if we had the capacity to treat you this whole different way deliberately and manipulate you at any time, why didn't we do it throughout the game?
You did. Midgame, the non-shitty way of treating me was how you were treating me. Coincidentally, that is the time period you were in my townbloc.
Even large swathes of the earlier part of the game, where you weren't my main focus, where you weren't my main push, you were not treating me with hostility.

It was only when I formed the scumread that this attitude emerged from you.
Also, again, after spending the entire game antagonizing you...WHY ARE YOU HERE to be the critical vote?
I'd be here no matter what thanks to the gem's bubble mechanic. randomidget wouldn't be able to read all of my posts and translate them fast enough to get proper responses, sure. But he'd be getting the bombardment all the same.

Do you think that randomidget would have gotten my list of grievances, looked at it, and said, "but i townread them tho :/" and just left it at that?
Do you think that I wouldn't point out to randomidget, "RANDOM. I AM DEAD. YOU ARE ALIVE. WHY THE FUCK DO YOU THINK THAT IS?"?
Do you think that the feedback I'd give to him would have been discarded as useless?
Given how much randomidget was sheeping others, namely MoI but also to some extent he actually did listen to me, I'd say no.

I am here because I am the only option to be here.
I am also here because I'm expected to vote wrong, yes. I'm here because it's expected that I have a higher chance of voting wrong than randomidget would. Yet that's not something I see as being alignment-indicative for you.
Grapes event he used was a climax event.
Was it a climax-specific event?
Or was it just USED during the climax?
I'm relatively certain mine could have been used at literally any time there was the appropriate stress--day, night, doesn't matter.
If we could have anticipated both grapes and randoms actions, as you believe we would, then we would have anticipated a Shiro/us/Randomidget LYLO.
Never said you couldn't! I said that you had a scenario where killing me gave you a lower chance of victory than killing randomidget.

And it's true. You know DAMN good and well that when I live past my expiration date, I get paranoid.
You know DAMN good and well that I can be charismatic when I need to...and that if I died instead of randomidget, I would be right there, in a private topic with randomidget, separated from the main thread, able to convince him. I could lay traps for you, and I could explain to him exactly why I was doing what I was. You nightkilling me would be an objective mistake, because it'd place me in a position where my influence on the gamestate would INCREASE.

In short, a dead me = no reevaluation on RR = me pushing randomidget to vote for RR.
An alive me = wracked with self-doubt = me having not a fucking clue what the fuck I'm doing.
this is all mushy feeling stuff, and I can't argue with that.
No, that part is one of the few things which isn't mushy feelings. Your own response is contradictory:
Yes, I've avoided closing doors because YOU DON'T HAVE GOOD REASONS to close them. There's an entire game of evidence of scumhunting and gamesolving.
If there's an entire game of evidence of scumhunting and gamesolving...why are the fucking doors still open? Why is there so much room for them to still be there? Why aren't any of them getting closed until they're literally impossible? That's not mushy feels. That's simple fact. You've kept options open. You've not worked to close them.
Why do you think I would PREFER to have to fight tooth and nail to convince you, to capitalize on your nature and manipulate you, when instead I could be spending the day talking to random and shiro?
My options here are that you either forgot about the bubble mechanic by this point, or are conveniently ignoring them.

Neither seems like something you should do as town.

As addressed, though, the answer to the question IS in fact, the bubble mechanic. I would do MORE damage behind a closed door than I would out in the open. I would do MORE damage with a private topic to talk to randomidget in which you had no access to. I would do MORE damage by being able to know I was dead and dead for good reason, and I would be able to talk to randomidget and appeal to him as a result, in a place you would have zero influence over. You couldn't talk to me. You couldn't do anything with me. But I could do plenty to you, even when dead.

Again, it's not like there's much of a choice on-hand. You leave randomidget alone, the bubble mechanic is in play. You leave me alone, you have to deal with me. But I am easier to deal with. I am easier to mislead. I am easier to placate. randomidget might have been townreading you, but it was still easier to placate me because again: randomidget would have access to me. randomidget would know he was townreading you and yet still alive. randomidget would have all of me pushing him, pressuring him every step of the way with absolute conviction to vote RR. That, you'd have no control over whatsoever.

But by killing randomidget and leaving me alive? You can interact with me directly. And interacting with me is...a good way to get me in this zone of self-doubt. You claim, "we fully expected the day to open with you voting us", yet that's bullshit; you know me well enough to know that I would absolutely doubt EVERYTHING come lylo. So I'd be easier to sway.

It's not that you have to have mysterious mystical knowledge of me.
It's that you have game experience with me and you call me a friend.
My friends know how I fucking think.
My friends know that I have incredibly-low self-confidence. That I have high levels of self-doubt. That every step of the way, I am plagued by my indecision. I have a reputation for the contrary, sure! I have the "mask" of mastina. The mask of my play, the me that I show of, the fearless, doubtless mastina who would never admit she could be wrong. But it's just a mask, and every one of my friends. Every player who knows anything about me. Knows that it's just that, a mask. That inside I am a shattered, broken, frail individual who simply can't sort the game and tries to pretend otherwise.

It doesn't take some oracle to know this. It doesn't take some level of intimate, deep knowledge about my psyche that you couldn't have. All it takes is even the most basic of understandings of how my mind operates--something you have on multiple occasions demonstrated you have awareness of. You might not know the specifics. Fuck, even I don't, I don't think anyone on here does. But you know the generalities of how I go about my process. It's impossible for you not to know this much about me.
Look those posts over.
I will try to (I have less than 24 hours and yet I've got like a month's worth of work for this game; I'm not even sure what I need to prioritize at this point), but I still want to ask: why does Drixx make the mistake at all, though? And why does he continue to misunderstand when you were coordinating with him to try and clarify?

I've asked for a lot of separation of you two as individuals in a great many number of my responses...but the simple fact is, when you two are Reasonably Rational, the hydra, you two by and large blend together. You become something "more" than you otherwise would be. You can still tell who is posting often even without signing. You can still make mistakes. But you make mistakes less often, because you coordinate your efforts, you coordinate your posts, you talk to each other, you communicate with one another. And beyond that, Drixx misinterpreting it feels like something which is a stretch in of itself--even if he was playing solo, I find it difficult to believe he makes such a large mechanical misplay.
We NEVER viewed Farsides role as so similar that we should be suspicious, and if we had said suspicion wouldn't have applied because of our knowledge of the mod meta, and again because of said mod meta, there was no need to clarify that our ability could stop factionals.
I'm not talking about that. That wasn't the issue. The issue is, you could have tried to verify farside's status with her block. It didn't matter what your read on her was. It didn't matter what you viewed her ability as, relevant to her alignment. She had a block. You previously had a block.

Why weren't you trying to confirm the specifics of her block, to see if you could either verify it or catch her in a lie? You should have jumped at a golden opportunity to catch farside as a liar with something which was 100% beyond all deniability: knowing your roleblock, and knowing hers, and asking about yours, and asking her to talk about hers. Would that have definitively "caught" her, no, but was it worth trying?

Why WASN'T it worth trying? That's the fucking problem; you didn't try it when you should have.
It's a request for something that can't be provided, because you've already dismissed out of hand every action we've taken that's been pro-town, because of your results bias.
You call it results bias.
I call it actually wanting results.

Because let me tell you something.
Push come to shove.
When it comes to the top-tier players.
The players who are scum are going to get results which favor the scum and did not favor the town. (Most likely, while APPEARING to have favored the town, except for small details. Hint: this is what I see your play as!)
The players who are town are going to get results which might not always favor the town, but do so more than not. Their results might sometimes favor the scum, but often don't favor either alignment. Basically, the players who are top-tier town will have town-results > null results > scum results in order of likelihood.

Where are the RESULTS of your play?
YOUR play.
Not the play of others you assisted with.
Not the play which was good in THEORY if not in practice.

Where are the results of what YOU, PERSONALLY have done, THAT HELPED THE TOWN DIRECTLY AND UNAMBIGUOUSLY with zero room for scum to have gained something.

That is what I don't see from you.

And that's the largest fucking problem.

Yes, as town, you are not going to make perfect plays.
You will make mistakes.
You will have plays which you thought were good but which in hindsight were a mistake.
Those exist in every game. They exist in my game, they exist in Titus's game, they'd exist in your game.

But as town, you are still going to make plays which show town results.
Maybe not immediately. Maybe not on D1. In fact, many town players of good skill get mislynched because they were unable to show those abilities at that stage in the game even if they were capable of it at a later time.

But you've have eleven fucking days, eleven full day phases, to show off your town self, to further a town objective.

So why the fuck is it that when I look at your play, instead of seeing stuff that furthers a town win, I see shit that has helped the scum survive this long?

You say the results are irrelevant?

Fuck that, results are everything.
What results do you have to show for your play?
That's what I'm asking, but which you're not giving me.

And you keep saying, "no slot except Xkfyu could".
Bullshit.
I can lay out reasons for almost every player. randomidget. Magna. Fuzzy (not in his vigs, but in his voting pattern). grapes. Titus. kraskaesque. Creature. Yume. NotChara. Klingoncelt. McMenno! The list goes on and on. Some have smaller contributions than others. Some have contributions which are a little bit hazier since we don't know the alignments of four key players that they focused on, but by and large, I can name reasons each and every player gave results, actual RESULTS which were unambiguously town.

I can't name those results for you. Maybe your definition of results is different than mine. Mine's not, "hey I vigged scum, that's results" as you seem to think it is. It's, "we did this, and this was what happened as a consequence. This consequence was pro-town because it helped the town in this way and hurt the scum in that way". That's almost entirely, utterly absent from your posting. You lack town results.
You have plenty of scum results.
You have a plethora of, "This was town, even though...", "this was a good plan, except...".
You're the only one who doesn't have, "This was town, because it did this town thing and it worked to do that town thing".
If you look at things based ONLY on results, then your analysis is fundamentally flawed, because it is naturally biased by hindsight.
Lylo is DEFINED by hindsight. That much I know.
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Post Post #12506 (isolation #721) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:46 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Apologies that I am a bit busy multitasking (and a bit salty at losing a game I should have won when in this game I'm almost positive no matter what I'm going to fuck it up and make the wrong call), mainly modding, but I've skimmed most of what's been said and felt the need to say, I have a LOT of work to do, will be doing it soon enough, keep posting what you are posting--I've skimmed well enough, but haven't read it properly, and haven't crossreferenced what you're saying with the reading I need to do (realistically not the whole game but what I
can
do is the last few day phases; that much, I think I CAN pull off), but this is me saying that you're on my radar right now. I should probably eat something (even if that cuts away from my time here), and I have some daily tasks to attend to (among them my blog), all of which regrettably eats away at my time here, but you ARE high on my priority list.

Don't be too terribly disappointed, though, if my final VOTE: RR, or final VOTE: No Lynch isn't a long speech. By the time I cast that final vote, I'll be beyond exhausted mentally, emotionally, and maybe even physically, so writing up a long loss speech isn't something I'd have the energy to actually do. It'll be, appropriate enough for the 90%-likely-to-be-a-loss, anticlimactic just plain vote as I maybe type a paragraph or two of apologies about how much I suck.

I'll have a lot of heat postgame to deal with, especially if I don't justify my vote at the time, but I'm not going to be able to fully analyze the game,
and
write up a long post forming my final conclusion. I can fully analyze the game, while still engaging you. I intend to, after I actually eat among other stuff. But I won't be left with any energy whatsoever by the end of the night.
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Post Post #12508 (isolation #722) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:17 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Technically the time I set was 45 minutes from now in casting a vote, but I think the actual timeframe is 4:00 AM or thereabouts for deadline, meaning I basically want to make my choice, my decision, by 2. I'm sorry it's taken me this long, been multitasking with other stuff. I have in fact read what you've said. Right now I don't think there's anything you can say which would do anything, honestly--I think, at this stage, it's all on me. All on me, to read and see about some things. Which is what I'm going to try and be doing.
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Post Post #12509 (isolation #723) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:12 pm

Post by mastin2 »

There's so many things I am going over right now.
So many things, doubts raised.
Every part of the game I'm going over, really.
And I know I should be verbalizing them.
I'm keeping everyone in the dark, even the dead thread at this point, so everyone for all I know thinks this is bullshit, that I'm not reading dozens of pages, and doing many isos. But. I am. I'm tired, getting really tired here, yet I'm keeping it up because I'm trying to make a conclusion.

It is right now 50/50. Nothing definitive either way. I wish there was, but I'm not finding anything which is tipping the scales.
I find small things which make me think one thing, and then small things which make me think the other thing.
So I'm doing work right now.
Reading, even when tired.

I'm sorry I'm not keeping up you do date on every detail on every post that I would make. This is the best I have to offer you, to just work in silence for the most part. I wish I had the time to show all my thoughts. All my work. All my research. To prove that I'm not making shit up, that I'm reading large swathes of the game. But I can't. I can tell you right now I'm on 440, but that doesn't tell you much except that I'm on a page, it doesn't tell you what I'm doing there because, well, fuck if I know hwat I'm doing there anyway. I'm looking for something, lost and confused, not knowing what I'm hoping to get. :?
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Post Post #12510 (isolation #724) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:13 pm

Post by mastin2 »

(And yes I am tiredposting. Like I have a choice. I know it's only 1:15, but my mind is dead already. This game is taxing me.)
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Post Post #12511 (isolation #725) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:31 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 11186, grapes wrote:Right now we're idling afraid to step into an interesting chapter of this game. I understand that fear. We're taking the safe way out and just shoving through a lynch on a lynchbait player because there's a "guilty" and letting the game drive itself which is one a shame and two hurting not only our chances to win but the game as a whole.

Maybe I'm wrong. Heck, the thought that shadow/creature could be a bus popped into my head once or twice but I doubt it.
Tinfoiled a bit earlier about fuzzy just being an SK. Which would explain the lack of scumkill for real because he'd probably be bp if sk and I can see scum shooting a claimed vig who cc'd scum more than a leftover/point person or w/e farside actually is; this would also explain why people are pushing him despite producing a body.

I dunno maybe I suck but even if creature's scum who's his buddy? I refreshed checked some isos after forgetting a lot of things; just decided to chill back and skim/scumhunt the first 1000 posts or so and got some very good clarity like, I dunno just feel really comfortable with my reads at present.
In post 11187, Reasonably Rational wrote:Farside said she misunderstood her thing and that she DOES stop factional kills, so I concluded that her calling Creature out as having been blocked by her plus her confirming that Varsoon said she blocks factional kills equated to a guilty. What am I missing in there?

As for having a plan and leading and being proactive, I'll point out again that we actually put forth a proactive plan to address all the possible fail points. Lynch Creature, force Farside to prove her claim (or eat rope), force fuzzy to confirm vig shot (or eat rope) with vig shot empowered and targeted at Shadow. I think people are being Naive when it comes to Farside and I don't know how to wake people up out of bad assumptions about her slot. Ideally tomorrow enough people will have the info we need them to have that this hits 100% win probability and we don't screw it up. It's going to depend REALLY heavily on how the scum team was compensated for the game having 8 slots that could never be mislynches with another 2 that could not be if things played out a certain way (copy Titus power to a 2nd person and let them have mod confirm their alignment would make a 9th, and Kraska could have been a 10th in a 3 person LYLO situation, which probably explains the mislynch... I would have a hard time playing active if I was sitting on that ability).

I would feel like the scum events we've seen compensate for that, except that scum have as many missing night kills as they got from events, so that means town was given protection to offset the scum event killing power. So what was scum given to offset the fact that the game began with 8-10 slots they could never hope to get mislynched?

We think the answer should be really obvious. And if you add that to what I've already said today, you should realize why we put the time in to lay out a very specific plan and have Random try and poke holes in it before presenting it to the game at large. I have been tempted to just break our game long compartmentalization of information and just say everything except I think our (Mastin, Yume, us, Titus, Gems) compartmentalization of important info has kept scum in the dark and they've run into several misplays as a result.

I'm hoping that some people, specifically, will read between the lines of my posts today and it will click. I think MoI got it earlier. I hope Masitn picked up on it. If we get our block solid I don't think the scum can kill enough of us to win, even if the thing I'm not saying outright is the case.
In post 11188, Almost50 wrote:So, how about a vote, Drixx? If you vote Creature maybe Moi will hammer. If you opt for Shadow instead I will hammer if I'm still around. P.S. I hope you do have a plan B in case that thing about Fuzzy doesn't work out as planned.
In post 11189, Reasonably Rational wrote:We always have a backup plan.
VOTE: Creature
I'm sticking to our plan. Plus ... something tells me that Shadow isn't going to eat rope today. But ... he can't dodge a vig shot can he?
I just don't see this progression as being "grapes is scum with Shadow_step, and Almost50 is grapes's scumbuddy, with a town-RR making this call".
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Post Post #12512 (isolation #726) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:37 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 11194, Reasonably Rational wrote:I am pretty sure I know or have a very solid guess at what everyone in the game does. If I knew of a way to get enough people to target her to make her prove her claim, that would have been may plan.

As far as trying to say someone else was the shooter ... do you know something we don't? I mean ... MoI opened up after Farside gave the info by asking if any other slot could have prevented a NK, and nobody could, which basically meant that Farside blocked you (She called this noisy ascetic earlier so I think it's automatic and she knows who targets her? Forgive me if this is off; I lost a great deal of my notes with the great water into running computer event of November 2016), and then she came in and clarified that her block could indeed stop the NK. The math seems really simple.

What am I missing? Help me out here.
In post 11201, grapes wrote:
In post 11195, farside22 wrote:Some players are skimming my post I see. My rb doesn't not stop factional kills. I said that 3 fucking times. When I'm targeted to blocks everything including kills.
Which means creature is probably town. Or at least this makes half the votes on him no longer valid. Do you know for sure when you get hit?
In post 11205, Reasonably Rational wrote:Can we lynch this yet?
In post 11206, grapes wrote:Drixx you're kinda missing the point here; you voted creature for being roleblocekd the night we're missing a kill, I'm assuming that's becaues you think creature submitted a kill and it failed.

We now know that it was a pansy-block that couldn't stop kills AND ALSO that the scum kill was probably eaten by farsides bulletproof. It's just as likely for creature to have put a kill in as anyone else fmpov.

And I don't think farside would lie for no reason either.
In post 11209, Reasonably Rational wrote:I think the only reason Farside is still alive is because she's told 95% truth and only lied when she had to. I would make any side bet (if it were allowed and not considered an out of game influence) that she's a strict 3rd party, at this point. Her play has been admirable in that case.

That said... I'm voting Creature for two reasons. First one is that I think he's scum. I do admit to misunderstanding the earlier claims as being a hard guilty on him, but after being told the exact situation, I still think he's scum. There's another really good reason to play it this way.
------------
Scum have to spin a narrative. That's one of the ways I have developed to reliably catch scum.
------------
No ... you're just the kind of scum who likes to openly troll the shit out of the game. I do have to give you some props for being entertaining on your way to the gallows.
This series of posting similarly so. Drixx looks really bad here; grapes looks really good.
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Post Post #12513 (isolation #727) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:52 pm

Post by mastin2 »

I mean. Large swathes of the game, grapes feels flat, individually. And Almost50's plans benefit scum. But you get moments like this:
In post 11418, Almost50 wrote:@MoI: *Sigh* Frankly, I'm done talking to you. You do as you wish.
@TFL: I changed my mind. I'm now BEGGING YOU to shoot me tonight. I don't want to play in this game anymore and I have never replaced out or walked away from a game I signed to, so release from my contract me please.
In post 11425, grapes wrote:I'm pretty on board with A50 being the last red now.
My nightmare is trusting rr and then fuzzy not flipping shadow tonight.
...Which are pretty good signs of that not being the team.

It's almost 2, the time I wanted to be done, yet I'm not even remotely close. :?
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Post Post #12514 (isolation #728) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:56 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 11457, Almost50 wrote:MoI = Moron of .. what does the I stand for, please??
This is NOT meant to be a dig at Magna, but rereading, just for the sake of it, to answer your question here, IF you wanted to continue the theme, you COULD go, "Moron or Idiot" to get the appropriate abbreviation.

(This is where I'm at rereading.)
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Post Post #12516 (isolation #729) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:02 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 11485, Almost50 wrote:We had agreed (myself, RR & TFL) that it's best if I was today's lynch, if for nothing else then to confirm I'm Town and give my night result credibility, so I' eagerly waiting to see that result and then I'm fine being lynched.
In post 11499, Almost50 wrote:I will listen to Mastina.. I will listen to Mastina .. I will NOT listen to her! Duh! I have my own mind.
VOTE: grapes

TWIE sold us the idea that grapes was shot by Sky only to clear his scum buddy. Furthermore, I like Fuzzy's argument about there not being a scum kill tonight because grapes was inactive.

Either that or lynch ME, and then I will get to call you names at my own will in the dead thread. (This is @ Mastina and MoI, who still can't read. Who THE FUCK said Shadow should not be lynched bc farside flipped green?? After the fiasco of Exposition 8 and you literally not being able to comprehend a single word of our PT you come back here and AGAIN misrep what I said. You should pursue a career in politics, I tell you. Only a politician can live with so much false propaganda.)

Now if the Town has their heads irreversibly far up their arses then I will vote ME over either of RR/Fuzzy, and you had better lynch me because I am NOT VOTING EITHER OF THEM EVER IN THIS GAME. Period. I'm done listening to shit from anyone. I will pursue my own agenda EVEN IF IT MEANT THE TOWN LOSES. My vote is on grapes and isn't going to move. You can join me or you can lynch me.
The thing is, Almost50-grapes bussing here would be detrimental. At the time, grapes wasn't a lynch candidate at all. Magna had cleared grapes. I had cleared grapes. Between the two conftown driving the game clearing grapes, he had no reason to push for a grapes lynch. Not like this.
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Post Post #12517 (isolation #730) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:04 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 11512, Reasonably Rational wrote:I'm busy trying to fix my computer, but...none of this makes any sense.
This also didn't feel genuine.
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Post Post #12518 (isolation #731) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:05 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 11515, Almost50 wrote:But really, it is not that complicated. Lynch grapes or lynch me. Fuzzy did what he was supposed to do as Town and eliminated a potential threat (or a future mislynch towards LyLo). RR play canNOT be scum motivated AT ALL, and even assuming they're a Scum mastermind then they made quite a few silly mistakes that makes it virtually impossible for them to win as the remaining scum. They could still be lynched 2 in game days from now and the Town still wins.

I'm 90% sure now that it is grapes because of the no NK. It makes sense with TWIE's ability being used to falsely remove him from our suspicion list, and the "slip" Shadow made looks more and more genuine now that I look at all possibilities.

Yet again, some here are persistent on not trusting me. I'm OK getting lynch to eliminate that doubt as well. I'm now in -more or less- the same situation to some that farside was to me, so the same rules and principles apply.

We still have time though, so let's give Varsoon some time to get back to me regarding that investigation result. If he doesn't in -say- 48 hours (i.e. by the time MoI comes back) then we proceed with my lynch anyway. Once I flip you can either go after grapes or still be stubborn and lynch RR first. When they flip I'm hoping you guys will go after grapes and not Fuzzy. If I had it my way it would be grapes today though, so I wanted that to be known.
And again this looks town.
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Post Post #12519 (isolation #732) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:08 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 11529, Almost50 wrote:First things first: Varsoon PM'd me with the result of "No Action Submitted". Now I do have a feeling I was redirected, because this result in particular did not explicitly mention my target's name. I had previously been told McMenno/Creature results with their names intact within he investigation result PM. However, I have no proof of such redirection other than that.

And besides; nobody provided an answer nor even seems to have addressed the issue of TWIE's event showing/claiming Sky tried to shoot grapes and TWIE telling us this was a corrected-to-be-true result. I don't see why SCUM would correct a SCUM action to prove their target to be TOWN. The only way I see it is they decided to bus Sky to falsely confirm grapes as SCUM, but then Sky died earlier than she was supposed to. What -on Earth- was TWIE thinking when/if he confirmed his own scum buddy took a shot at grapes (thus proving Sky to be a killer)?? Explain THAT please.

Also, to save you the trouble; you have enough voted to Lynch RR w/o me. There are currently 8 players alive, thus 5 for the lynch, so you need to convince 2 of Shiro, TFL & grapes to join you and the 2 Gems, and if the game ends then I will change my avatar to a donkey instead. If it doesn't then you know you need to take a step back and try to take a look from a different angle. Either there are TWO scum still alive, or RR is a Town slot is what I'm saying.
This also felt town.
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Post Post #12521 (isolation #733) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:15 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 11539, Almost50 wrote:
In post 11536, grapes wrote:Who are you shooting if RR flips scum?
That's the interesting question.
That's interesting indeed.. how certain you are that the game has TWO scum left alive at this point. (Otherwise; if RR flips scum the game ends. Right??)
In post 11540, grapes wrote:Hey almost, how about you respond to my catch up post.
I'm firmly in the 1 threat to earth left club. I just think it would be interesting if the game didn't end after we removed all of them, that's all. : p
In post 11543, grapes wrote:Kinda comes down to who we think in rr/almost is the bad town and I could quote the post that shows it's an obvious choice, but I'll spare diminishing almost's reputation further.
In post 11544, Almost50 wrote:Btw, I need your modding experience on this one: What does an action that CANNOT FAIL exactly mean? It cannot be blocked? It cannot be blocked OR redirected? It works through a JK block?? What?? Cuz if the name of my target wasn't explicitly mentioned in my result it gives me the feeling it's NOT that of my target. Then again, why would scum redirect me to someone who did not take action when they could've stayed put and take no action themselves?? This may not help determine alignments, but it sure doesn't bode well with me.
P-edit: @grapes: What's your precise question to me?
In post 11545, grapes wrote:I wanna know why you're getting hung up on not getting a result worded to you the same way and are trying to twist that like it means you were redirected and not that it was just worded a different way. And also what your action does? Now that I'm reading your post it looks like you can tell if someone actioned or not at night.
First; have you asked varsoon about why there was a wording difference. Then two, you can explain to me where a redirector comes in here, given we haven't really seen evidence of one. And then third how you being redirected makes you think I'm scum to start with.
In post 11546, Almost50 wrote:
In post 11545, grapes wrote:I wanna know why you're getting hung up on not getting a result worded to you the same way and are trying to twist that like it means you were redirected and not that it was just worded a different way. And also what your action does? Now that I'm reading your post it looks like you can tell if someone actioned or not at night.
First; have you asked Varsoon about why there was a wording difference. Then two, you can explain to me where a redirector comes in here, given we haven't really seen evidence of one.And then third how you being redirected makes you think I'm scum to start with.
It took Varsoon a whole day to get back to me with a result to begin with, so no I didn't bother asking him what it meant. However, in my mind when your role is tailored to get results in a certain format then when that format changes it should be a point of concern.
And yes, I can tell if my target took action and whether that action was harmful. On Season Finale it also tells me the exact action and who the target was. That's why I've used it Twice of 3 times on Season Finale. The first one had to be used before the Season Finale though. Now maybe you can help me understand why TWIE would confirm you got shot at by Sky if that was the case. Care to give that one a try?
This interaction also felt INCREDIBLY genuine.
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Post Post #12522 (isolation #734) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:17 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12520, Reasonably Rational wrote:
In post 12517, mastin2 wrote:
In post 11512, Reasonably Rational wrote:I'm busy trying to fix my computer, but...none of this makes any sense.
This also didn't feel genuine.
I confirm on my personal integrity that Cerb had legit issues when attempting to upgrade his computer.
I never ever ever would call into question real-life aspects about that and I'm frankly insulted you are insulted because you should fucking know better than to accuse me of making that accusation. You know damn good and well I was referring to the second half of the post, not the first, about the "none of this makes sense".
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Post Post #12523 (isolation #735) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:17 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 11551, Almost50 wrote:
In post 11547, grapes wrote:I've been obvtown all game. Twie either didn't really think confirming that would mean anything, or thought you all would drown in wine over it. Look what happened.
So you're saying Scum!TWIE confirmed Sky being Scum for shits and giggles?
This also felt like a genuine townslip.
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Post Post #12525 (isolation #736) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:19 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 11561, Reasonably Rational wrote:
In post 11560, grapes wrote:Let me die like a man tomorrow if I'm wrong.
Just let me live one more day and I swear it will all work out, he says. LOL.
Quoting this for the hilarity considering your slot is far more guilty of this sin than grapes's slot ever would be. I don't think I need to reiterate how many times you said, "Don't lynch us, let us live for just this much longer".
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Post Post #12526 (isolation #737) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:20 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12524, Reasonably Rational wrote:Played a game that was at 11,500 posts and around 200,000 words of hydra chat on your phone before, have you?
Not both at the same time, but both individually, yes, actually.
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Post Post #12527 (isolation #738) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:23 pm

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In post 11579, grapes wrote:Even if you're pocketed by rr why me over almost? Or fuzzy who you've acknowledged is only trying to take vig shots that go against the wishes of confirmed town?
This is another interaction which throws doubt onto the Almost50-grapes scumteam.

grapes was focusing on RR, but grapes's secondary focus was on Almost50.
Almost50's primary focus was on grapes.

They had absolutely no need to distance/bus like that in the endgame. In fact, immediately after having lost Shadow_step, it'd have been detrimental (even suicidal) for them to have done so.
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Post Post #12528 (isolation #739) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:25 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 11584, Almost50 wrote:grapes: RR is OMGUSing.
grapes: Why me over Almost
grapes: TFL is trying to go against the will of conf!Town
grapes: Could random be scum?
The only one he didn't throw shade on (apart from Mastina & MoI) is Shiro, and this is for an obvious reason. If there is one scum remaining then Shiro IS clear, and since both Mastina and MoI do believe it's one more lynch to go then mud slinging Shiro would back fire on grapes.
The thing is lynching grapes today either ends the game in a Town victory or confirms there IS another scumster alive, thus bringing Shiro back to the lynch pool. There is no doubt in my mind now that grapes will flip red. He is accusing RR of flailing when all I see is grapes is the one flailing hard trying to pin it on anyone he can.
I know I'm Town and don't need to prove it anymore.
This leaves us with grapes and Shiro (not an OR though). Shiro was bubbled yesterday, so cannot be the "only" scumster alive. So it is either grapes, OR grapes AND Shiro.
This was yet another town interaction. I just don't see why an Almost50-grapes scumteam acts this way.
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Post Post #12529 (isolation #740) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:27 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 11589, grapes wrote:
@Almost
In post 11551, Almost50 wrote:
In post 11547, grapes wrote:I've been obvtown all game. Twie either didn't really think confirming that would mean anything, or thought you all would drown in wine over it. Look what happened.
So you're saying Scum!TWIE confirmed Sky being Scum for shits and giggles?
In post 11552, grapes wrote:Sky was already dead at that point.
Don't ignore a man who's trying to have a conversation with you. Now, I was gonna ignore this as you just forgetting how shit went down or not reading. (it's a big game)
But you dropping that point and then moving on to exponentially weaker ones is making me scratch my head here. I'm not the one flailing here. I was trying to get random to realize just how bad his play has been but he literally doesn't care. Done talking to him. Your tunnel on me came out of left field
You need to get with varsoon about why your wording was different. And tell me how anything RR has done since I dropped my case on them (or anything at all this game for that matter) looks town.
This is yet another one which doesn't feel scum-scum.
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Post Post #12530 (isolation #741) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:28 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 11593, grapes wrote:
In post 11587, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Grapes – Speaking of Leftovers – Grapes is the only player that could be. He basically claimed Lapis to me in our PT. Lapis does make thematic sense as scum who could join the scum team in a passive way. And the lack of scum kill last Night may indicate that Lapis lacks the ability to make the scum factional kill. I’m more considering this based of 11540 as an answer to “why do you think there are two scum left”. Also the AtE and insults in 11573 and 11574 are pretty bad.
You're a complete ass.
You know what's really shitty about the day before last is that I knew the only way for me to save creature and get shadow lynched was to convince you on shadow scum. I knew I couldn't convince you creature-town, so I spent my energy trying to wake the rest of the game up on that and sell you on shadow-scum with a case and you didn't EVEN RESPOND TO IT. UGHHHHHHHH
And I know like I've been busy and shit and that was a particular two weeks where I didn't have a lot of time to post BUT I FUCKINGTRIED. I'VE BEEN ADVANCING A TOWN AGENDA WHILE RR HAS BEEN ADVANCING A SCUM AGENDA.
Your flavor spec is bad. How many traitors do you think this game is gonna have? We all signed up to play mafia not blindfolded darts. I'm also not a very nice person when I'm getting voted for no good reason and if you don't know ...
I'm the AtE fucking CHAMPION.
This also felt genuine.
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Post Post #12531 (isolation #742) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:30 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 11603, grapes wrote:Almost's ability lends more credence to scum not killing and also trying to brew up paranoia on fuzzy if he's town. That's pretty clear.
And as previously established: Almost50-grapes as a scumteam has no reason to no-kill. There's no risk of being caught killing, because Almost50 can just lie about his result and say grapes went nowhere even when someone died. All these posts, they just...don't look like scum talking about a scumbuddy.
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Post Post #12533 (isolation #743) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:32 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 11607, grapes wrote:And if cerb "concluded a50 was town day 4" LOL. (Hi lack of paranoia) Why hasn't he been shoving a case and WHY WAIT UNTIL AFTER I VOTE THEM TO MOVE ALL IN. Doesn't come from town.
This too looks incredibly genuine.
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Post Post #12535 (isolation #744) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:36 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 11616, grapes wrote:Why's a50 confirmed town, though?
This, plus the one before and after, also felt town.
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Post Post #12536 (isolation #745) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:37 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 11625, grapes wrote:Like holy fuck guys I know I'm an asshole but I'm not scum.
This also felt genuine.
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Post Post #12537 (isolation #746) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:43 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 11673, grapes wrote:
In post 11670, Almost50 wrote:NEWS ALERT: My result now reads as GRAPES took no action. Just conveying the info I received on my inbox though. It doesn't change much to me. My one and only acceptable lynch of the day is grapes, then if the game doesn't end Shiro comes into consideration.
You sheeped fuzzy saying that my being inactive pointed to me being scum (which is verifiably false).
You tried positing some weird thing about twie confirming skybird as scum, proven false.
You thought you were redirected based on a wording thing and that somehow meant I was scum, also proven false.
So why is your vote still on me?
You don't seem like a dumb guy.
Again, more interactions which don't feel scum-scum.
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Post Post #12538 (isolation #747) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:46 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 11703, Almost50 wrote:
In post 11673, grapes wrote:So why is your vote still on me?
Because my mind, my gut and my PoE all tell me you're most likely red. I can't see it any other way. Also, I have a huge problem with your defense. You seem too scared to die, albeit it being a good thing at this point to eliminate all suspicions. Myself and Fuzzy and even RR have all expressed will to go at this point. I think a Townie who believes there's only one scumster left should be alright eating rope or getting NK'd today/tonight just to give the confirmed players a clearer view.
Aside from this being another one which doesn't feel scum-scum, there's how Almost50's point to me applies better to RR's actions.
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Post Post #12539 (isolation #748) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:55 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 11829, Almost50 wrote:As I've declared before; everybody gets a taste of their own cooking. I will be the first to tell you I will not be voting RR until grapes is gone. In fact, I'm not going to vote ANYONE until grapes is gone.
This was, again, a hard stance against grapes, and felt incredibly genuine.
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Post Post #12541 (isolation #749) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:58 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 11852, Almost50 wrote:You know what? You're still persistent on your thoughts .. your theories .. your understanding to be correct all the time. I -on the other hand- will always be a stubborn asshole in response to that notion in particular.
If farside was stll alive today I would not have lynched anyone bu her, not even if I was told grapes was guilty AND she got mod-confirmed in public. The same now applies to RR. I'm not lynching that slot even if Varsoon himself confirms that slot to be scum. You keep pushing your agenda, and the harder you do the harder my stance is on the opposite direction. We're not children, but you seem to want to play it that way. OK, forget I'm Almost 50.. I'm now almost 5 years old, a brat, and a mule head. I go before RR goes.
This also felt incredibly genuine.
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Post Post #12544 (isolation #750) » Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:02 am

Post by mastin2 »

I'm not going to quote all of , but I'll give the highlight: grapes pushes Almost50, and pushes Almost50 HARD.
That goes from distancing to flat-out cross-bussing.

Am I expected to buy that as a narrative?

That the scumteam, with the gems in the game wanting to lock the game down, with many conftown players, aimed to lynch each other rather than mislynch?

That's a tough pill to swallow.
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Post Post #12545 (isolation #751) » Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:04 am

Post by mastin2 »

In post 11864, Almost50 wrote:
In post 11860, grapes wrote: VOTE: Almost50
I'm very much FOR this, btw. If you're not today's lynch then I should be. I have nothing more to offer and I doubt the game will reach the 3rd Season Finale, so I have no night action to benefit the Town. Furthermore, I'm not an established analyst, and I sure am not a good case-constructor. In fact, making detailed cases with convincing logic and outspoken language has always been one of my weakest sides. I can scum-hunt, but I cannot easily get people to see what I see.
So, I would be happy to eat the rope today, and watch how the rest of the game goes from the dead thread.
@MoI: PLEASE, do consider bubbling Mastina tonight. That's seems like the ONLY way left to lynch grapes tomorrow. He is very much in control now with her sheltering him, and it IS going to cost us the game. Don't say I didn't explicitly say this here and now as my last tip going out with my last breath.
This, too. While the bubbling of me was bad, the mindset going along with it (especially since the gems could catch-and-release at the time) to lynch grapes felt incredibly sincere.
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Post Post #12546 (isolation #752) » Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:06 am

Post by mastin2 »

In post 11875, grapes wrote:Fuzzy you down to lynch almost?
Like. This wasn't an empty push.

grapes legitimately tried to get Almost50 lynched.
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Post Post #12547 (isolation #753) » Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:10 am

Post by mastin2 »

In post 11877, grapes wrote:
In post 11864, Almost50 wrote:
In post 11860, grapes wrote:VOTE: Almost50
I'm very much FOR this, btw.
Would you mind self-voting?
In post 11864, Almost50 wrote:PLEASE, do consider bubbling Mastina tonight. That's seems like the ONLY way left to lynch grapes tomorrow. He is very much in control now with her sheltering him, and it IS going to cost us the game. Don't say I didn't explicitly say this here and now as my last tip going out with my last breath.
Mastin you do realize that this is a scumclaim right?
In post 11865, Randomnamechange wrote:Almost is one of those players that I feel like i missed a post that made them obv town or something.
My sentiments exactly.
In post 11866, mastin2 wrote:We are both fine assuming that no matter what, Almost50 is town--correct me if I am wrong there. So we are willing to gamble the game on him being town. But it IS exactly that: a gamble, not a given.
I'm gonna need a bigger case evidently.
In post 11866, mastin2 wrote:-STRONG flavor reasons to believe only one scum left
-STRONG balance reasons to believe only one scum left
-STRONG mechanical reasons to believe only one scum left
-And decent play reasons to believe only one scum left.
Citation needed.
In post 11868, mastin2 wrote:Also would just like to point out: this grapes post is absolutely the last thing grapes would do if grapes were scum. It is literally alienating the rest of the town and going down a path, a battle, a fight which CANNOT be won.
Watch me. Your stale bad reads are not "the Town."
In post 11868, mastin2 wrote:Because while grapes has my support to not lynch him, grapes will NEVER get my support to lynch either of Almost50 or Shiro. This is town crazy. It's crazy, yes. But it is town crazy all the same.
Not sure I NEED your support but it would be appreciated. And did you actually read my post?
This wall not only has a lot of genuine parts in it, but also has more interactions which don't feel scum-scum.

I simply don't see the narrative.
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Post Post #12549 (isolation #754) » Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:19 am

Post by mastin2 »

In post 11934, grapes wrote:Could I ask for an A50 vote?
This at the end of the wall is what makes it feel meaningful, feel genuine.
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Post Post #12551 (isolation #755) » Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:24 am

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12009, grapes wrote:
In post 11975, TheFuzzylogic99 wrote:Almost is town.......
I've already dismantled all of almost's contrived reasons for scumreading me. In particular using the knowledge of Almost tracking whomever last night as a basis for 'clearing' rr and you but not me doesn't stand up to reason. He's admitted that he'd rather us no-lynch than lynch anyone but me which means that he's either scum or willing to throw the game away based on nothing. He's told the gems to bubble confirmed-town multiple times. He pushed you as SK in an attempt to save confirmed scum. Being survivalistic is what got him lynched in borderlands; he's adapted his play to that here.
RR could also be scum but I think they're just bad town.
The fact that those two are the only ones alive that could be threats to earth with the knowledge of Xk's role means that skybird attempting to derail that alliance means there's exactly one scum between them when you consider that skybird was assumed to be confirmed town by many. Simple explanation is that scum didn't think xk had the balls to shoot sky and wanted to save twinwings.
Among others (I'm skipping some), this stood out as a particularly town interaction as well.
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Post Post #12554 (isolation #756) » Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:30 am

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12023, Almost50 wrote:
In post 12009, grapes wrote:Being survivalistic is what got him lynched in borderlands; he's adapted his play to that here.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I didn't intend to even bother commenting, but this was BRILLIANT it got me laughing out loud! So, the MARTYR .. whose aim was TO GET SHOT as his ONE AND ONLY win con.. was survivalistic?? Sure, dude. Now please order me some of the same stuff you've been drinking.
Like, tonality reading is one of the things I'm better at than an average player is, and.
I just don't see this tone, this interaction, as being scum-scum.
It's feasible for this maintained interaction to have either as individually scum, if not for the setup telling us otherwise, sure.

But.

Maintaining scum theater--and for them to be the scumteam, this would be exactly that--takes a level of time and effort that's beyond what most scum players can do. To pull it off this long, this consistently, with this tone. It's just. It doesn't happen. I don't see how it could be. Not over that period of time. You can plan to distance. You can plan to bus. You can't plan out every facet of your conversation and have the interaction still feel organic, and yet their interaction does feel like exactly that: organic.
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Post Post #12555 (isolation #757) » Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:35 am

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12552, Reasonably Rational wrote:If Grapes gets A50 lynched, then he probably gets us mislynched and he still has credibility to spare.
Problem: the bubble mechanic.

Your narrative requires the two of them to have bussed, get one lynched, and THEN avoid every bubble and every lynch, as solo scum, the entire game. It requires believing that they were willing to confirm the presence of seven scum, and also, willing to risk bubbled players being confirmed as town.

Let's say grapes/A50 is lynched.
The gems bubble you.
A gem dies. The remaining gems release you: you are now confirmed town.
The lynchpool becomes fuzzy/Shiro/survivor. We lynch one of Fuzzy/Shiro.
The scum kill the remaining gem, who bubbles the second of Fuzzy/Shiro.
You're alive. I'm alive. We lynch the third, the survivor of grapes/Almost50.

Lynching scum that day phase would have lost the scumteam the game.

You're conveniently forgetting about a fundamental mechanic that was in play. It didn't MATTER how much towncred they'd get. It didn't MATTER if they were last on the list. POE would condemn them to death in lylo ANYWAY.
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Post Post #12558 (isolation #758) » Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:42 am

Post by mastin2 »

Uhg.

One of the main reasons that I haven't been responding to you, Drixx, is because my intent here was to read the game through in its entirety.
The reason I haven't responded is because responding you to was on my "get there when I get there" list.

As in: you brought up points about yesterday. Well I haven't reread yesterday, so how was I to respond? I wasn't going to respond to those points until I was to yesterday. But this is the point where I'm running out of time. There's 20 pages I haven't read--something in those 20 pages could be important. Could majorly shift my opinion. Could have made me go differently. Those pages also would have allowed me to answer you.

But I'm down to 20 minutes.

I wanted more.
I'm NOT absolutely sure grapes-Almost50 is impossible.
I think it less likely. I think their interactions don't look scum-scum. They really don't look like scumething they could plan out in advanced, not like that, not to that extent, but I haven't read their entire exchange, their entire dialog, to confirm this, to make sure it wasn't distancing. If in those 20 pages, they suddenly stopped, I wouldn't be able to see it now even though if I did earlier I would have seen it.

I'm sorry, but I have to go off of what I have.

Vote: Reasonably Rational
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Post Post #12559 (isolation #759) » Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:47 am

Post by mastin2 »

And I'm sure I'll get a lot of shit for that.
I do have notes.
Sloppy ones, but there.
To Varsoon, who I've PMed the thjole game.
To the dead thread, who V gave them to.
In my own notes, where I compiled past notes and brought them together.

But mostly in my head. I'll show them if you genuinely feel I didn't have them when I did.
OI kinda stopped recording them somewhere in the last few days. Not sure when I did, but I did because of time crunch meaning the notes there were less than needed, useful. Well maybe they would be useful, but I couldn;t figure out how to.

So I am sorry.
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Post Post #12560 (isolation #760) » Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:49 am

Post by mastin2 »

Like.
I couldn't even cast a vote tag here.
That should be evidence enough I;m dobuting it even now.

And it feels anticlimactic.
Like. Sad even, and probably pathetic.
I know. I;m sorry. It is the best I can give. If that wasn't what I needed to, then it means I simply couldn't igve what needed to be given.
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Post Post #12562 (isolation #761) » Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:53 am

Post by mastin2 »

But if you think I WANT to be up at 4 AM just to vote wrong you can go fuck yourself; I stayed up this late because I legitimately eeded to do the work. I needed to try. I needed to feel lie I was righting the make choice.

I still don't.

I wish I did, but I didn't make it that far. I didn't get to where I was comfortable with the call, and that emplifies the shittienss of the call if it's wrong. But the deadline is what the deadline is, and while I would have pulled an nall-nighter to do this game justice, I didn't have all night. H had until 4, with a safety windo.

I set the deadline at 1.
I pushed it back to 2.
Then 2:30.
Then 3.
Then 3:30.
Then 3:40.

I gave the game as much time as humanly possible.
If that is wrong, then I sm sorry it was wrong. It was all I had.
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Post Post #12563 (isolation #762) » Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:55 am

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12561, Reasonably Rational wrote:Thank you for admitting that you were dishonest about how much effort you were going to put in this day phase (and dishonest earlier when you said you had pages and pages of notes that you just weren't posting).
I didn't lie. Those notes ARE pages and pages and pages and pages, probably like 100,000 words total between all my PMs and such. I haven't done anyu official compilation.

I put more work into this game than any other. Not as much as I felt neeeded to be done.
But as much as humanly possible.
I set out goals I new I couldn't reach, but tried to reach them anyway.
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