Mini 1868 - Sakura Wars: So Long, My Love Mafia [GAME OVER]

[Persivul]

Hi guys
~f

(In all seriousness; I don't think we'll be signing our posts but given we are literally a married couple; you can safely assume posts are made with both of us agreeing upon things)

That's pretty cool. My wife enjoys hearing about my games but she doesn't play. But that makes me jelly, so:

VOTE: Medea

[Persivul]

Um. Guys.

There are four mafia this game???

That was known going into the game. Presumably the offset is the two investigatives. That probably balances, but increases swing.

[Persivul]

I'm not great with figuring this out but,

We mislynch day one (12)
Night kill (11)
Vig kill (10)

Mislynch day two (9)
Night kill (8)

Scum win.

Is that right. We can actually lose this game night two?????

Possibly, but if vig takes that into consideration we should get at least to D3.

[Persivul]

VOTE: no lynch

Ayy

I hope that's not serious.

[Persivul]

That means nacho's chances of being scum just went up even more

So, this is basically an evil mod game, right? Like hey, games aren't hard enough. Scum don't win enough games around here, let's add an extra member. Oh and as if that's not enough, let's make one of them a godfather too. And limit the cop. Yep that sounds just right.

Maybe when it's an open game you should read the setup before signing up. Not liking this opening.

[Persivul]

I think I'm gonna do RQS this game

IOW

I'm scum and don't know how to pretend to hunt, so I think I'll use RQS to give me something else to talk about.

[Persivul]

I'm think a mass claim might break this game.
Am I wrong?

It might, but not on D1. D2 or D3 depending on how things go.

[Persivul]

I'm not sure if anyone is still taking it seriously, but I'm strongly against mass claim. Nothing on our side really suggests it's a good idea, while the fact that there are four scum ought not influence it; aside for putting us into lynch or lose earlier.

However, mightn't there be a virtue in our deciding who the gunsmith and cop should investigate - obviously with the caveat that one wouldn't investigate oneself. Or is that giving scum more info than we'd want to?

First, style points for ought and mightn't.

Regarding choosing targets...when you've been rolling VT for awhile and finally get a juicy PR, are you gonna just do what town tells you to do? A lot of people will rather do what they like, and then you risk getting a sense of a false clear because a guilty wasn't given on one of the targets, but they may not have been investigated. IMO we just let the PRs do what they want, because that's probably what they'll do anyway.

[Persivul]

3. Regarding the Gunsmith's role, the Godfather DOES in fact show up as having a gun.

mod - how about the cop and vig? Can you confirm that they have guns (per the wiki)?

[Persivul]

What would lead me to think it's an open game anyway? Here's the post I looked at. What looks special about it that I should have noticed. Does it say "OPEN GAME EVERYONE THERE'S FOUR SCUM MAKE SURE YOU NOTICE THAT" anywhere?

No, but when you click on

Description

it tells you exactly what roles are in the game.

[Persivul]

Dammit, just when I was feeling better about the game, false positives arise.

Yes, we likely have false positives when the gunsmith targets the cop or vig to junk things up.

[Persivul]

Who does that?

I did, and I believe some other people did.

And why are you acting like I'm supposed to?

Where was my scum motivation for reacting to the setup the way I did though?

In my experience, scum, who know the alignments, are less likely to have thoroughly read the setup than town. Further, while setup spec can be beneficial, it can also be used as a way to appear busy without really scum hunting.

[Persivul]

Anyway Persivul do you have anything useful to say or reads on people that don't involve you should have read the setup or doing rqs means you're scum?

I give you town points for questioning molla on wanting to be scum. Like you, I figured he would answer as he did, but it was a good question.

Do you believe his answer? Do you think it could all be wifom?

[Persivul]

What did you think about my point on Medea

Assuming you're referring to 52, I disagree. They said, "WTF is with no lynching and mass claiming being bandied about as good ideas this early?" I agree with that. Those were bad ideas. Your vote is OMGUSsy.

and what did you think about BB's vote on LUV?

It was feelings based on very little information. That's fine for him personally this early in the game, but it does nothing to sway

me

.

[Persivul]

My vote was serious

Oooh, terribly mysterious.

Sorry, but I hate that shit. If the vote was serious, use your big boy words and explain the reasoning.

[Persivul]

...You realize that when Tammy signed up for this game, she did not have a role?

Sure do. I also realize that, by the time she was posting, the setup was there in the first post.

[Persivul]

LOL...are we all halftime posting?

[Persivul]

I've definitely said more words about my read than 52. Did you just stop reading at that point?

Let's be reasonable. When you say "my point on" someone, it's not reasonable to expect me to ISO you, identify everything you've said about the person, and address all of it. I went to the post in which you voted them. If you meant something else, say so, but don't act like it's fault.

I can't tell if this is a case of you completely misunderstanding, me being unclear, or you willfully mischaracterizing my point and then making a weird accusation based on the mischaracterization. Right now, I kinda want to lean towards door number three because I can't for the life of me understand where you got that idea or that it could possibly even come close to omgussy.

IIRC you talked about some strategies...Madea said those were bad ideas...you voted them. IMO that at least comes close to omgussy. Note that omgussy is an observation, not a charge, as you see omgussy town all the time.

I mean it's definitely based on a reaction and his posts in the game; it's not just made up feelings or a tone read. Do you disagree with what BB and Empking see?

What do they see? BB voted LUV in 73. LUV had made 5 posts at that point, no more than 2 sentences each. Tell me what this substantive case is they have on her, because I'm not seeing it.

What do you think about LUV in general?

Null. There's not much to go on.

[Persivul]

Those five posts were all low effort, low content, safe posts.

You can say that about a lot of people's first five posts regardless of alignment. Absent meta, that doesn't say much.

[Persivul]

I meant exactly what I said. Even if all you read was the post I voted in them, I still don't see how you got that. The last two sentences should have clued you into the fact that your interpretation isn't even close to correct. It was born of a lack of interaction, not whatever interpretation you came up with.

The last two sentences seem to be based on personal past experience which I don't share.

And yes, I do think that in a game of mafia, when there are only five pages, that it's reasonable to expect you to read and even iso to respond.

And I think when you say "my point on" someone, and I see a post in which you voted that person and made a point, it's reasonable for me to conclude that that's the point you're referring to.

Why I asked you in the first place was because the manner in which you went, and didn't, go through the thread pinged me. You seemed like you were reading the thread. You were interacting and responding to posts as if you were trucking along, but all you really did was respond to setup spec stuff. The only sort of scum hunting response you had was responding to Gamma's RQS post.

First, not all scum hunting is obvious. Do you really think I wasn't sorting you as we talked?

Second, how much heavy-handed scum hunting do you expect at that point in the game? If only pushing one person at that point is scummy, then probably everyone in the game is scummy.

(What is it with people caring that he did rqs even after someone said not to anyway?)

That wasn't my point, which you'd know if you had read my ISO.

But you stopped commenting on anything going on in the game thread after that except to discuss with me about people being aware of the setup.

I find it odd that you literally stopped responding once actual game relevant stuff started happening. Since you were shooting down setup suggestions, I expected to see you responding to actual scum hunting that was going on, but you merrily ignored it.

The comment on Gamma was in 96. In 117 I commented on your questioning of molla. In 142 I commented on molla's push on LUV. In 151 I followed up on that, asking what the substantive case on LUV was if it wasn't based on tone (and the response has been underwhelming).

So, no, it's incorrect to say that apart from gamma, I've only talked setup spec.

Why are you casting shade like that?

Did you actually read my problem with them? Go ahead and read that page to see me explain my read two whole posts later after I voted them.

Two posts after you voted them is 57, and again that's based on past personal experience which I don't share. Accordingly, there's not much for me to say about it.

[Persivul]

I understand, the thing is I'm not going to force things. It's not how I like to play. I find that a lot of people on this site don't understand that a lot of stuff is just noise or NAI and tend to end up

making something out of nothing

as a result, rather than letting things progress naturally.

Looking at this there's not much to it, looks like Reflektor is

making something out of nothing

.
VOTE: Reflektor

This struck me as odd. Rules don't say if scum have daytalk. If they do, this could be two people both unconsciously using wording that came up in their scum thread.

[Persivul]

I understand that approach. I don't think that

making something out of nothing

is the worst thing in the world as long as you can pull back and see you're making something out of nothing; it's a hell of a lot easier to read a room full of misguided people than it is to read a room where everyone's shuffling their feet and looking at the floor and waiting for someone to do something that really, really stands out.

Apparently it's the phrase of the day.

[Persivul]

I also strongly dislike the late reaction of #125 to the setup. It reads to me as following Tammy's lead with setup complaints. For all Medea's apparent discussion about breaking the setup, I find it hard to believe that the most helpful thing to tell the town is that.

It was their first post after mod gave setup information which was both new and unusual. How is it late?

[Persivul]

I think Fate needs to start playing mafia.

Randomidget too. He was on site yesterday but didn't bother posting here.

[Persivul]

Persivul I think it's actually more likely that it's just subconscious use of the phrase from Gamma, and Reflektor just used Gamma's wording to respond.

Could be (particularly with Reflektor), or could just be coincidence. The thing that made it worth mentioning IMO was the time stamps of the first two. They're just a minute apart. Also note that Gamma wasn't replying to LUV.

[Persivul]

shadonra is making blatantly scummy posts and I don't really want to go that route just yet either.

WTF, he only has one post.

mod, can we get a VC?

[Persivul]

VOTE: Fate L-2

234 - basically votes medea and hides behind other peoples' reasoning

235 - as noted previously the comment on shadonra pinged me, but I wanted to see a VC before voting. Also "I mean Tammy/AJ are universally town read." He's too concerned with what other people are thinking, not coming up with much of his own.

[Persivul]

I figured shadonra had posted more than once and I had missed it in my skim.

You assumed he had made more than one post, and assumed that those other posts were "blatantly scummy."

Randommidget and Pesrivul's follow ups are by far the worst votes on my wagon

Here's molla's vote on you and explanation:

VOTE: Fate

How is my vote worse "by far" than that?

[Persivul]

So Persivul lets talk.

You were voting Alien,

An RVS vote.

now you're voting me for what I know to be pretty shallow reasons.

Yes. All the reasons for voting are fairly shallow at this point of the game. Your reasons for voting AJ were shallow. Your initial reason for voting Medea didn't even amount to shallow, and your reasoning given after you saw a wagon build was shallow. I could also vote Gamma, and the reasons for that would likewise be fairly shallow. You're a better choice as there was a wagon on you, and as we see the wagon got you participating. I'm also a fan of D1 wagons for analysis later in the game after some flips.

I am obviously concerned with the reads other people have, but they do not guide my reads if thats how it came across.

I was noting that my reads coincided with others.

And I find that bolded part scummy. Yes, I privately check my reads against those of others I town read, but: it's early D1 so there's not basis for solid town reads; and, I don't see the town motivation to announce that my reads agree with others. Scum, OTOH, are more concerned about appearing to fit in.

[Persivul]

Speaking of weird, how about the discussion on what was the subject of discussion?

[Persivul]

indigo vote is pretty good

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Indigo

He announced a 7-day VLA. What do you hope to accomplish with a wagon?

[Persivul]

What's your read on Indigo at this point?

Town side of null - can't go stronger than that as there's only 6 posts. I agree with them on the LUV push, and that's mostly what they discussed.

Forgetting the V/LA issue, do you see town motivation in their posts?

I think the better question in this setup is, do you see

scum

motivation in their posts, and to that I'd say -

no

.

[Persivul]

Sad to hear Tammy you were one of the reasons I signed up for this game. Take care.

Looks like you signed up before her.

[Persivul]

9) I will post votecounts as often as possible, generally once per page.

Once per page would be overkill, but once per day would be nice.

[Persivul]

FYI I'm a CPA and my busy season has begun, so my posting will be reduced. I've been reading, and should be able to do some substantive posting tomorrow.

[Persivul]

In my experience, scum, who know the alignments, are less likely to have thoroughly read the setup than town. Further, while setup spec can be beneficial, it can also be used as a way to appear busy without really scum hunting.

This is disingenuous shade slinging.

It was a weak charge in response to a question. It was post 115 - most charges are weak at that point.

[Persivul]

Spoiler:

...You realize that when Tammy signed up for this game, she did not have a role?

Sure do. I also realize that, by the time she was posting, the setup was there in the first post.

That doesn't change the fact that not reading the description is NAI.

I understand, the thing is I'm not going to force things. It's not how I like to play. I find that a lot of people on this site don't understand that a lot of stuff is just noise or NAI and tend to end up

making something out of nothing

as a result, rather than letting things progress naturally.

Looking at this there's not much to it, looks like Reflektor is

making something out of nothing

.
VOTE: Reflektor

This struck me as odd. Rules don't say if scum have daytalk. If they do, this could be two people both unconsciously using wording that came up in their scum thread.

This post pings me too.

I understand that approach. I don't think that

making something out of nothing

is the worst thing in the world as long as you can pull back and see you're making something out of nothing; it's a hell of a lot easier to read a room full of misguided people than it is to read a room where everyone's shuffling their feet and looking at the floor and waiting for someone to do something that really, really stands out.

Apparently it's the phrase of the day.

Crap post. Reflektor was obviously referring to Gamma's use of the phrase.

Through post 219, my posts are the only ones that you found worthy of mention. Did you come into the game with an agenda? If not, you're not considering motivations. Scum don't go about making waves and calling attention to themselves, particularly early on D1.

[Persivul]

I mean Tammy/AJ are universally town read

Lol at trying to throw AJ in as an universal townread.

I also noticed this at the time. Goes for Tammy too. I town read her slot, but we haven't had enough people chime in to call it a universal town read.

[Persivul]

That explains a lot.

If you believe it. Have you considered the possibility that he was scum laying low, then when challenged on it he decided to town up his game and use technology as an excuse for the change?

[Persivul]

yeah, my scumread of fate dropped off between my vote and his pressure on me for it

This sounded terrible when I first read it, but on further consideration I see the point.

[Persivul]

I don't see the town motivation to announce that my reads agree with others. Scum, OTOH, are more concerned about appearing to fit in.

Why would scum announce that they are trying to blend in?

He didn't announce that he was

trying

to blend in. He announced that he

did

fit in. That's a subtle but important recharacterization you made of my point. Why did you do that?

[Persivul]

VOTE: BBmolla

I mean honestly you couldn't ask for a more useless vote than dropping one on indigo. Wants LuV wagon, gets two generic townreads, moves on to Fate. He even says Uzi's posts aren't good. Which, going by his last post

In all honesty I'm not voting for pressure any more im just voting who I think is most likely scum

He should still be voting LuV as he's said nothing about Fate anyways.

Also he actually took part in RQS so fuck him.

I'm feeling a BBMolla townread after reading this post.

Uh...why? And why is medea scummy for pushing indigo after announcing a 7-day VLA, but bbmolla isn't?

[Persivul]

Spoiler:

no one seems to give a shit about wagonning Random. I'm leaving it to the vig

Can I get a show of hands?

Potential Glorious randommidget wagon:

(2): Fate, -Grey-

Any other takers?

looking decent so far, but is it weird to mention I really would prefer him to just be vigged? <_<

I think we'd get more information out of a Alien lynch still

I just think hes useless. Voting me this whole time, then when -Grey- calls it out that his vote on me was for shitty reasons given my explanation of active lurkiness, RM agrees his read on me is weak and has fallen off and yet hes still just voting me and not going for anything else.

Is it scum useless? maybe

thats why I wasnt really expecting support and am still voting Alien

holy shit I'm uncomfortable with how easy it would be to kill rm at this stage


RANDOM GET YOURE FUCKING HEAD IN THE GAME

What a crap push.

Let's wagon random. No, vig him. No, who wants to vote him? But is it weird I want to vig him? He's just useless. No wait, he might be scummy useless. So if you noticed I floated a trial balloon, note that I wasn't really expecting support. USE CAPS TO BLAME MY TERRIBLE PUSH ON RANDOM.

[Persivul]

It's just that I have lynched town!randomidget for the same reason before.

*cough* The Hunger Games *cough8

And remember that we're already in potential lylo in D2. I need more than policy lynch.

Exactly. We have two investigators and two vig shots to handle lurkers. A PL on a lurker is terrible in this setup.

[Persivul]

He's not talking about alignment, he's talking about competence.

This pinged me - why are you answering for Fate?

[Persivul]

Am I the only one who is townleaning shadonra?

Probably. His ISO isn't bad, but it's just too short (8 posts) to really get out of null range.

[Persivul]

Imagine a commet heading towards earth. Some people scream and run around. Some stay deathly still. One guy is tring to calm people don and he's a doctor of physics. Another one is also being calm and interacting with the others an is uper-reasonable. THe film follows this guy. At the end, however, it is shown that, in a twist,he is an alien controlling the meteorite with his mind. Hopefuilly, that clears it up.

WTF?

[Persivul]

"Commet" is supposed to be meteorite. I must have forgotten to change it.

Well sure, if it's meteorite...

[Persivul]

That's inconsistent as hell.

If you find everything about a player to be consistently townie or consistently scummy, you're either scum, or confbiasing town.

[Persivul]

Persivul you're trying real hard to paint me as scum.

I don't need to try. That push on random is the scummiest thing in the game so far.

What's scummy about having a null-read you want vigged and don't want to waste a wagon on?

You floated a wagon as a trial balloon with the vig shot as a CYA in case it didn't take off. Actually, if you now claimed that you wanted the wagon as pressure because he's a null read who isn't participating (it took a wagon to get you to do much), I might buy that. But now claiming that you didn't want a wagon on him after 378? That's just bullshit.

I especially like how you don't comment on random's alignment at all or try to tell us what kind of interaction it is.

I just checked his ISO - he's posted ~15 sentences. The obvious comment on his alignment at this point is

null

. We have two investigators to check inactive players. Or, we could wagon them to get them to talk - but you don't want a wagon, you want a vig shot.

Am I trying to mislynch him (if so there's so much support I would've gone for it) bus him? Please do tell

So much support? I see you, grey, and shadonra. That's less than half of what's needed. And, this reinforces the point that you're not interested in sorting him. You just want him dead.

[Persivul]

That's inconsistent as hell.

If you find everything about a player to be consistently townie or consistently scummy, you're either scum, or confbiasing town.

This is a bullshit post, considering what I was calling inconsistent was two conflicting remarks

about the same action.

I read random as saying that his scum read on fate decreased due to fate's "pressure on me for it," which is a different point than fate's excuse for not posting much earlier.

p-edit: see above.

[Persivul]

That's interesting (in a townie way) - I was expecting you to jump on me with Fate.

[Persivul]

Grey: As said before; grey was clearly closely reading my posts (he went so far as to comment on a typo/grammar error in one of them) and made the most obvious lead up into voting us ever. He's scum who went looking for a good reason to join the wagon on us; not town who was looking for scum. His answer when called out is "I dunno what to say so I'll be witty lel guyz amirite" Our scum read on the slot prior to his replace in is noted in our prior posts. Shout out to post 154 which is a REALLY awkward way to unvote a RVS vote; it's like he feels the urge to have a reason in case he gets called out for it later.

I also thought he came in with an agenda. But, after voting me, I explained a post and he backed off. He seems willing to listen and adjust reads. I have him leaning town at this point.

[Persivul]

i was really ill for the first few days of the game so I didn't really get into it.

RL excuses mean nothing without subsequent action. Fate used lack of a computer as an excuse, but to his credit, he has made very significant contribution since (I'm not a fan of a lot if it, but at least it's there). You OTOH haven't done much since you supposedly recovered.

[Persivul]

fate my heart's not in the randomidget lynch
there's nothing wrong with it at all but I want a lynch that gets my blood pumping a little more

Strange that you're voting fate, but here you talk to him like he's your partner.

Personally as random fails to engage after saying he would, my blood is starting to pump for him a little.

[Persivul]

Except for Medea you just put the lower volume posters in die, and the higher volume posters in don't die. Weren't you just calling someone else lazy...?

[Persivul]

Which one of my reads should be different?

Swap AJ and shadonra for medea and molla.

[Persivul]

VOTE: BBMolla

mod, realeo just voted empking. We need accurate and more frequent VCs with deadline approaching. TIA.

[Persivul]

i think bbmolla might be scum, will wait for their next post to see.

Note that he's over prod range here, but has been posting elsewhere on site.

[Persivul]

BBgeuse!

[Persivul]

Pers + Midget what changed your mind on Fate?

I was initially concerned that he was making crap pushes on other people to take focus off himself. Then he kept it up after it was pretty clear he wasn't personally in danger, which indicates he likes wagons for the info, which is townie.

[Persivul]

1 day, 22 hours, 7 minutes

Just sayin'...

[Persivul]

VOTE: Aj the Epic

[Persivul]

@Grey: What do you think about shadonra's push on you?

[Persivul]

FYI I'm in last day of phase in another game, will get back to this tomorrow.

[Persivul]

I am onto something Grey. I got a strong "Cop" vibe from Empking so I left him alone yesterday, but now hes a quality player who skated by all of D1 and did nothing to try to dismantle the "Fate wagon that had bad vibes" etc.

What's the difference between a cop vibe and a gunsmith vibe?

[Persivul]

Glad to see Gamma's decided to start playing mafia,

You don't find it suspicious that a cop dies and then he goes from lurking to active? Like scum that got a boost of confidence from the flip?

[Persivul]

Still strongly against hypo-Gunsmiths. it gives so much information to scum.

This is correct. I'm not sure if the people proposing it are scummy or just not thinking it through.

However, what i propose is that - if the Gunsmith got a guilty - he gives his gun to the player above the guilty on the player list. If, after a while, he does not give a gun to a player and everyone has posted, then someone announces that the Gunsmith should give the gun to his innocent.

This - not so much. GS only gives the gun to an inno result.

[Persivul]

There shouldn't be a wagon on empking. Generally I'm not opposed to pushing someone for null lurking, but as I hinted yesterday, in this setup it's dangerous.

[Persivul]

What makes it null lurking and not scum lurking?

Quote specific posts if you can please

You

haven't

quoted his supposedly scummy posts. You

have

said that he skated by D1 and hasn't done fuckall. You've also said that you were getting cop vibes from him D1, but haven't explained why those vibes couldn't have also come from a gunsmith. Scum generally have incentive not to make waves, but in this setup a lot of people would also play a PR not to make waves. You're scum reading a lurker on nothing, despite getting cop vibes from him, and that looks like scum trying to run a potential PR up to see if there's a claim.

VOTE: Fate

[Persivul]

Gamma isn't just lurking, I've actively pointed out that he's posted meaningless content that doesn't take any stances.

I wasn't talking about gamma, I was talking about empking.

And now that the scum have shown their faces I'll claim

I am the Gunsmith with a guilty on Empking.

THAT is why I suspect Empking even though he gave off "cop" vibes.

I wanted to see where everyone stood before coming out with it. Shadonra's vote is the most disappointing because it tipped the scales and I thought he was town, and in the same post he sees how bad Empking vote is.


Scum are among:

Gamma Emerald
Persivul

Nice job on the guilty, assuming there's no CC (and there's no reason to expect a CC). But, there's no way that I as scum would blatantly defend a buddy as in 941 and 945, and especially not in a 7:4 situation.

VOTE: Empking

[Persivul]

Alllllllrighty then.

[Persivul]

I've been holding off on low-content posters under the theory (which looks to be correct) that in this setup, town PRs are as likely to coast as scum are. Now that PRs are accounted for:

VOTE: Gamma

[Persivul]

Vote Count

Gamma Emerald -
Reflektor -
Lil Uzi Vert -
Empking - Fate, -Grey-, Lil Uzi Vert, Persivul, Empking, BBMolla, Realeo (LYNCH)
BBMolla -
shadonra -
-Grey- -
Fate - shadonra (L-5)
Persivul -
Realeo -
Medea The Alien -
No Lynch -

With 11 alive, it's 6 to lynch!
Not Voting: Gamma Emerald, Reflektor, Medea the Alien

Let's take a look at this. Empking selfvoted way before the actual hammer which leads me to believe there was bussing going on with his wagon before his selfvote. Unless Fate executed a genius gambit, that leaves Grey and Persivul as the possible bussing scum. I'm thinking both are scum given how Emp just laid down and gave up.

Empking voted 1 before the actual hammer. Mod made an error above, and listed 7 votes on him when it was only 6 to lynch.

Emp may have thought he was hammering due to Grey's vote in 954, but that wasn't a new vote.

[Persivul]

Analyze the reactions to yesterday's wagon, how it was built, how scum tried to save Empking, etc.

Traps are cool if done properly, but when you bait one with lies, the results aren't valid.

[Persivul]

I don't like attacks on self-describing

Why not? Being overly self-conscious is generally considered scummy.

[Persivul]

What makes it null lurking and not scum lurking?

Quote specific posts if you can please

You

haven't

quoted his supposedly scummy posts. You

have

said that he skated by D1 and hasn't done fuckall. You've also said that you were getting cop vibes from him D1, but haven't explained why those vibes couldn't have also come from a gunsmith. Scum generally have incentive not to make waves, but in this setup a lot of people would also play a PR not to make waves. You're scum reading a lurker on nothing, despite getting cop vibes from him, and that looks like scum trying to run a potential PR up to see if there's a claim.

VOTE: Fate

VOTE: Persivul

Your problem with the quoted post is?

[Persivul]

Spoiler:

Wait how am I scum again?

BNL was voting for Me, Eager Snake, White Queens and Vedith out of those alive. I am thinking its a double/triple benefit red herring kill.

Frame Townie + PR hunt + Save Scum Buddy (may or may not be one of the case).

The Irony is that I don't think any of them are scum right now.

---

So I reread the game during the night and found that Vedith wasn't as scummy to me anymore.

His line of posts from 1586 to 1616, where he reasons with Wisdom and tires to prove that Wisdom is wrong wrt his WQ read. Where he also brings out the truth from Wisdom that Wisdom thinks WQ is scum regardless of BTD6 flip.

And his post about their sister hood 1061 (which was agreed to be accurate by the hoodies) makes me think that he may not actually be scum.

Why couldn't it be possible that scums shot BNL (lets assume DS is a town shot for now), to make us concentrate on BNL's D1 scum suspects? I mean it is obvious we will try to go after these folks right? (same is the case if we assume the other way around)

Also if White Queens is scum, then her killing players who are aggressively going after her lynch would make more sense no (Wisdom)? Lets be honest here, I don't think we are going to lynch Wisdom on the basis of anything that has happened so far, as they are all pretty null against him.

I want to hear more from Texcat, she didn't reply to my post :

@Texcat: Don't you see that as manipulation from Vedith? Why didn't you suspect Vedith here?

VOTE: Texcat till you start talking more.

Tell me what you think of WQ, Wisdom, Vedith, and Drealmerz.

This quote does my point justice, especially the beginning

WTF...care to explain a little?

[Persivul]

Oh My God.

I get it!

Scum does not has chat~daychat or nightchat. They can't communicate!

The wording of the role PM is that

Vote - During the day phases, you may cast your vote to help decide to lynch a player. During the night phases, you may cast your vote to decide to kill one of the enemy players.

Why would they case vote if it's a night chat? I think there would be less bussing here.

I'm going to clear this up right now. That is not true. They can in fact communicate,

but only during night phases.

That's pretty much a town slip. I can't imagine scum faking that. Not that I had any problems with the slot before that, but FWIW.

[Persivul]

Not in my opinion. That looks rather shady imo

Why didn't you say so before?

[Persivul]

It reads like it was posted from the perspective of the informed minority.

It makes more sense coming from scum than town.

How so? That's a non-answer. When asked why you found it scummy, you replied with a longer version of

It's scummy

.

[Persivul]

@Realeo:

so now that I've claimed, the REAL sad thing about D1 was it was the Gunsmith running up the Vig while asking the Vig to shoot the Cop

yeah, I'm not proud. At least I've caught 1 defscum and 2 most likely scum

Note that a few posts later Fate admits that his play was crap. The disconnect is that I'm being pressured for voting him based on play that he himself admits is scummy. He also made blatant lies, such as saying empking gave him strong cop vibes. Those actions result in votes. You were on him too: 874.

[Persivul]

Seriously? Because it makes no sense for a gunsmith to investigate someone who's giving him strong cop vibes.

[Persivul]

I am onto something Grey. I got a strong "Cop" vibe from Empking so I left him alone yesterday, but now hes a quality player who skated by all of D1 and did nothing to try to dismantle the "Fate wagon that had bad vibes" etc.

What's the difference between a cop vibe and a gunsmith vibe?

The last post is in hindsight. This was the issue in real time. Fate said he had strong cop vibes from empking, but the cop flip ruled that possibility out, so he's now suspicious of empking. The problem with that is that

the setup has two investigatives

. Hence my question, which was never answered. This looked like scum who had devised an excuse for a vote, then when a problem came up with the excuse, was dodging it.

[Persivul]

Town might take two seconds to consider WHY I would say cop vibes and not gs and maybe backof

They might, but after the other things, which you admit were terrible, they might not. Your play was aggressive and slipshod, but you weren't concerned because you knew you had a claim in your back pocket if needed. I get that you might play that way as a PR, but don't blame others for scum reading you for play which you admit was bad.

[Persivul]

bad play doesn't equal scum

Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Either way, it usually results in votes.

I'm holding you accountable for that push

molla and Realeo were voting you well before I was, and shadonra came on after me. But, I'm responsible?

[Persivul]

The only vote on Gamma that's bad is Persivul.

I've been suspicious of Gamma all game. I only held off because he could have been laying low as a town PR (3 of 4 of them did). Now we know he's not a PR, and he's floundering.

[Persivul]

Like 1054 - vote without a case to see if it sticks.

[Persivul]

ok here's the deal
I'm the REAL gunsmith. I got fate guilty n1 and Grey guilty n2. I'm certain Fate is not the scum rb, so we're not lynching him today. THAT'S WHY I wanted Realeo/someone other than Grey to unvote: so Fate + Grey couldn't hammer me once I outted them. btw as for the third, I'm fairly certain it's Persivul

This isn't dead yet because...?

[Persivul]

Definitely not the roleblocker if you're going to suicide like this...

That's a good point, unless he's RB and already used his shots. There were known PRs N1 and N2. They definitely RB'd you last night as you're still alive. They may have passed on it N1 - a vig with just one day to go on could easily hit town.

[Persivul]

That's why I suspect Persivul, you guessing that I would be the gunsmith via his pr suspicions on me

I don't think Fate is basing his play on my suspicions.

[Persivul]

STill Reflektor as RB

Why? I can see Reflektor as scum - for as many words as they've put out, there's amazingly few hard stances. Reading their stuff is like eating plain oatmeal. But why RB in particular?

[Persivul]

RB is probably out of shots already.
KBW's wacky gunsmith rules weren't clear until today and if the scumteam is so much as vaguely intelligent instead of just blindingly lucky they went for the block N1 and on you N2, so your RB fear is probably overblown.

This is bad. A 2X RB could very well have decided that a 1X vig wasn't worth a block on N1. The vig might not shoot at all, and if they did could easily hit town.

[Persivul]

@mod: obviously it will not go through, but will they still be able to gun someone on a following night?

Yes.

I guess you can do what you want as it's a theme, but that's not a normal usage. Normal guidelines say that an X-shot ability is used up and gone if roleblocked.

[Persivul]

I still have my gun.

This makes Reflektor confirmed scum for the slip that I was blocked last night

There's no slip. The fact that you're alive means you were blocked last night. Unlimited GS is more dangerous to scum than 1X vig.

[Persivul]

No, I think scum DID use their RB on the claimed VIGILANTE

How is that not a basic assumption of optimal play? Run it by me

Uh, cause the vig only has 1 shot, and could hit town as easily as scum?

[Persivul]

BBMolla: Only in D3 I re-consider him being town.

Why? Is this a meta read, because I don't see anything townie about him. I don't really see him as scummy either, and at this point in the game, that's somewhat scummy in itself.

[Persivul]

Congratulates the town PR, discourages any scum from counterclaiming,

There's no reason that Fate, as scum, would make this claim. Assuming therefore that he's town, there's no reason that scum would counterclaim. If I were scum, why would I need to "discourage" a buddy from doing something that they had no reason to do in the first place?

sets himself up for why he isn't buddies with the guy who's going to flip scum at the end of the day.

In the same post that Fate named scum, he accused me of also being scum. Of course I'm going to point out how that logically makes no sense.

[Persivul]

Analyze the reactions to yesterday's wagon, how it was built, how scum tried to save Empking, etc.

Traps are cool if done properly, but when you bait one with lies, the results aren't valid.

So you don't think there's anything useful from yesterday at all.

How does that conclusion follow from what you quoted?

[Persivul]

People suddenly unvoted by people due to "fuck you incident." My question is what happened? I thought if it's town, people will still bite him. I hyphotize that the reason people unvoted is scum scared.

I'm not following, and what's the connection to D3?

[Persivul]

OK on the timing, but what's the point in the first place? I don't see why getting angry and then not being lynched means town.

[Persivul]

He's obviously scum and apparently everyone's done talking. Can we just get a hammer?

[Persivul]

VOTE: BBMolla

[Persivul]

Deja vu all over again - molla today feels like gamma yesterday (beginning of yesterday anyway).

[Persivul]

I would prefer molla today, but reflektor put up a pretty good case on shadonra.

VOTE: shadonra

[Persivul]

Nice job not even letting Medea talk.

Sorry. IMO Medea really hasn't been interested in this game for some time now.

[Persivul]

Because I didn't feel like twiddling my thumbs for another week and a half just to do the same thing in the end anyway.

[Persivul]

I hammered because I didn't feel like waiting around a week and a half while people did NOTHING. Medea proved my point. They saw the hammer and bitched about it. They knew as a PR they'd be killed that night. That bitch post was their opportunity to give reads. They didn't. All this time, and they still didn't have reads. Give them another week, and they still wouldn't have reads.

The easiest push in the world is on a quick hammer. Molla has made no other case on me. He hasn't done jack shit this entire game.

FOS: BBmolla

[Persivul]

Using the bathroom so don't have time right now but do we ready have two snap votes in LyLo???

What's your take on grey?

[Persivul]

I didn't notice grey actually voted me.
VOTE: Grey

[Persivul]

Thanks mod! Interesting setup, and great flavor.

[Persivul]

Vote: Grey

Nice! When I saw realeo's vote I thought, Oh shit, we forgot to discuss quick lynch protocol (we didn't have day talk). Nice job showing that you were there and ready to vote. In general, you were a great scum partner.

[Persivul]

Regarding the 9:4 setup, IMO a key to our win was that we killed 4 PRs in 4 nights. If we hadn't done that, dealing with conftowns later in game would have made things a lot more difficult. Random was kinda obvious as a PR. We took a risk killing LUV when there were known PRs, but I was pretty confident he was the doc. This setup is probably swingy, but IMO town can win it.

mod, did medea (or anyone else) ever get the dayvig? Also, did medea ever take a night shot?

[Persivul]

We really didn't want to shoot outside confirmed scum (counterclaims and us lynching wrong) because hof the town vs scum numbers.

Yeah that's what we figured. We roleblocked you the night you were killed, but apparently it didn't matter.

[Persivul]

If this were to be run again I would suggest:

- give full details on roles at beginning of game, e.g. the gunsmith being 1X and having the gun to give away
- dayvig shot shouldn't end phase. It should be an extra kill, so if there's a cop guilty, it can just be shot, but town still gets a lynch that day too.

[Persivul]

Oh yeah, just read that random got a guilty N1. I thought he might be a PR because he wasn't concerned with being wagoned, as if he had a claim in his back pocket if needed.

That could have been a pretty quick town win...

[Persivul]

Also make night kills not require a vote. Just take the most recent submitted PT kill.

That near-no kill night one likely would have resulted in an abandon. It's also pretty silly that we weren't allowed to change the kill before the deadline if we wanted to change our minds. The lack of clarity on this point was pretty scary.

Agreed. For town wondering what this is about, we had to vote on the NK just as we vote on lynches. A majority was needed to get a kill. IIRC N1 empking wasn't around, and gamma came in pretty late to hammer it. Also, once a hammer was reached, we couldn't change our minds.

There's nothing wrong with this method per se, it just needs to be spelled out clearly because it's unusual for this site. A big bold paragraph in the first post of the scum thread would do.