Micro 670: Death Miller Mafia 2 GAME OVER
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karnos
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karnos Mafia Scum
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Seems like rb is trying too hard. Not sure that makes him scum, I have played like that as town when I was bored, but it's the only notable thing about the game so far.
Anyone have thoughts about the unique BASTARD mechanic of this game? IMO, we should just lynch any cop guilty, period. 66% chance of hitting real scum, and if we let a scum escape because they "might be the death miller" we just screwed ourselves out of a win. I'll say it right now: if a cop gets a guilty on me, you lynch me, it's just the correct play.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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I brought up setup spec because it's a bastard setup, which means a lot of usual meta strategies are going to fail. Also, I have no strong reads and I want to get discussion going somehow.In post 36, Road Kamelot wrote: if youre the death miller letting yourself be lynched is fuckin stupid, you know youre town so any lynch is prefereable to yours
cop should be tryin to townhunt anyway
You are twisting what I said. I said town should lynch the death miller, I didn't say the death miller should just give up. The death miller doesn't even know if he/she is the death miller, so... yeah there is that.
Your point is kinda stupid besides, like you think caught scum us going to just let themselves get lynched?-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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In post 37, Road Kamelot wrote: also karnos discussin setup play like it matters d1 is kinda lolIn post 40, Road Kamelot wrote:
When did i call u out for bringing up setup spec or not having strong readsIn post 38, karnos wrote:I brought up setup spec because it's a bastard setup, which means a lot of usual meta strategies are going to fail. Also, I have no strong reads and I want to get discussion going somehow.
i didnt even mention that whyre you defendin against accusations that havent happened yet ;;;;)
Has anyone played with RK before? Does she always post like this? Kinda reminds me of killthestory, but spammier and less rational.
I'm just trying to figure out if she is being scummy, or if this is her typical play.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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Care to explain your logic? A guilty is 66% likely to be a true scum. You lynch that every fucking time, it's much better odds than anything else in the game.In post 43, GuiltyLion wrote:RK is town
this is a lynchable post, regardless of your alignment this was a bad thing to sayIn post 35, karnos wrote:I'll say it right now: if a cop gets a guilty on me, you lynch me, it's just the correct play.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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You mean like how you didn't explain your logic when you posted that my behavior was scummy?In post 50, GuiltyLion wrote:36 and 40 are pro-town points and inquiries, RK is calling out scummy behavior from karnos.
it's not about your logic that you postedIn post 49, karnos wrote:Care to explain your logic? A guilty is 66% likely to be a true scum. You lynch that every fucking time, it's much better odds than anything else in the game.
it's about what you implied by posting it and the fact that you didn't consider or realize what you were implying when posting it
I think I see what you are trying to do, and I don't see any reason for town players to do it.
Time to move past RVS.
VOTE: guiltylion-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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What you did is scummy, but spelling it out rewards scum so I can't do that right now.In post 70, GuiltyLion wrote:I'm not sold on scum!karnos but I don't like how his reaction in 52 was to try to peg me for some kind of hypocrisy so I'm trying to get more there if/when he answers my questions
why is 37 a scumpost?
Hopefully other posters can put 1 and 1 together to realize you are scum.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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It was intended at the time, but perhaps it was a play error. I don't really want to explain further.In post 77, Charloux wrote:@Karnos: Did you put yourself deliberately in 35, or by accident?
Also i'm sorry for rendering rb useless for the time being, didn't know he would react like this. Ok i'm not sorry, it's fun to see him angry <3-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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This is scum right here. Read the post in question. Think about my motivations, and why I would say what I said. Yes, there is a reason why I'd say what I said, it should be obvious to anyone who read the game setup.In post 83, GuiltyLion wrote:I'm also not sure that it really was "intended" by karnos at the time, seeing as he asked me to explain to him why it was bad.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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Nope. I said it *might* have been a play error. But luckily you revealed your alignment by jumping on as only scum would, so it's a fair trade.In post 82, GuiltyLion wrote: and you conceded it was a "play error".-
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karnos
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karnos Mafia Scum
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Of course you will. When the time comes I will explain.In post 90, GuiltyLion wrote:If you refuse to answer my question in 87, I will treat it as a literal scumclaim-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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This wagon building fast.
GL is playing very anti town. Without going into detail, one big difference between town and scum is such: a town player will look at a reason why an action might be taken by town, while scum players just need to look for a reason why an action might be taken by scum.
The is a perfectly good reason for my plan, I assure you, but the act of explaining it would ruin it.-
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karnos
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karnos Mafia Scum
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So are you asking me to claim on day 1 when I'm not even at L-1?In post 122, GuiltyLion wrote: if karnos is town he needs to stop trying to play bullshit WIFOM plans and needs to play openly and straighforwardly-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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when do you expect to have some more time?In post 98, BTD6_maker wrote:It's mostly RVS here.
Anyway, I basically looked at Karnos vs. GuiltyLion. I don't have much time at the moment but what I will say is that it is GuiltyLion that looks slightly worse from the interactions.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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you could always redeem yourself by voting for Guilty Lion.In post 120, Lemons wrote:I'm willing to admit that my vote on karnos may have been a kneejerk reaction to something due to my limited experience. Now that I have more time/less stress, I'm going to reread the thread later and see if my opinions change at all.
I would like to hear about the read on culted as well. Is it only because he disagreed with you about karnos?-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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I thought you were reluctant to put someone at L-1 earlier. Why the change of heart? Are you super confident that your vote is on scum?
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karnos Mafia Scum
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Yeah, this is still scum.In post 199, GuiltyLion wrote:I kinda think Charloux is town tbh, like can someone who is scumreading the "fake" frustration break down for me why it's fake and not genuine?
karnos is still scum. It's frustrating that he's gonna just post one-liners like 179, ignore everything else going on, and you all are letting him off the hook for it.
My proposal: we lynch guilty lion. If he is town, he should be okay with being lynched because his flip will validate his argument and theoretically town could lynch me in retaliation. Except that won't happen because he is going to flip red.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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It would be stupid to lynch a 100% confirmed town first, from my POV. Interesting information may come to light while pushing a wagon on guilty, for example a derail attempt by a partner, or an abrupt change in reads that looks like a bus, etc. I want to be in the game to see that stuff happen, rather than reading from the dead thread-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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In post 200, GuiltyLion wrote:I've been obvtown since my first post of the game tbh
Does anyone know what this means?In post 203, GuiltyLion wrote:like are you both seriously asking me to just explain why I'm town? What use is that to either of you? How is that a helpful question?
On one hand you are saying you are such obvious town it should be obvious from your first post. Then you are acting like it's something that is impossible to explain or show.
Well, which is it? If you can't explain it, I'd say it's not very obvious after-all.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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Ah, and this is your first post, which apparently makes you "obvtown"In post 8, GuiltyLion wrote:guys I'm so happy to be town, I was scum in my last three micros and being scum is just so exhausting
VOTE: karnos
serious vote, I've made a similar RVS vote as scum before
FYI, I RVS the player in slot 1. BTD knows this.
You absolutely could find games to prove I do it as scum, no doubt about that, because I do it in virtually every game I play, as town or scum.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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Someone awhile back asked me who is scum if GL isn't.
Lemons. This thing of latching onto a bad logic push and then questioning it (but keeping his vote up), followed up by lurking and barely contributing... stinks of scum.
I don't believe both scum would push together so blatantly, but if guilty isn't guilty, my money is on lemons.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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This is a good question.In post 233, rb wrote:Charlohx why are you NOT voting one of your SRs?
No vote from you either. I think "later today" is already passed (although, India, funny timezone). I haven't played with ArcAngel but this seems like some really lurky play so far. Not calling her scummy just yet, but consider this a nudge to be more active please.In post 230, ArcAngel9 wrote:7 days to deadline. We still have enough time.
I ll get my thoughts up later today.-
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karnos
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karnos Mafia Scum
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I hate to answer for someone else, but your question is so illogical it demands a response.In post 245, GuiltyLion wrote:
I was mostly referring to karnos instead of you in that section. See these quotes from karnos:In post 236, BTD6_maker wrote:Also, your next posts are just as bad. "Everything I've done and why it can only come from scum and not town". This is serious misrep. I did not hold you as obvscum or even a moderate to strong scumread. In fact, I held you as nullscum. In that case, why would I be convinced that everything you did can only be from scum and not Town?
In post 85, karnos wrote:
Nope. I said it *might* have been a play error.In post 82, GuiltyLion wrote: and you conceded it was a "play error"., so it's a fair trade.But luckily you revealed your alignment by jumping on as only scum would
I do want to know, BTD6 - why aren't you holding these claims up to the same level of scrutiny as you took on my "obvtown" remark? karnos is calling me scum and depending on his alignment he will naturally have different thought patterns as to why he is making that claim. My point is that his statements are more worth diving into, especially given that you're voting me already.In post 209, karnos wrote:My proposal: we lynch guilty lion. If he is town, he should be okay with being lynched because his flip will validate his argument and theoretically town could lynch me in retaliation..Except that won't happen because he is going to flip red
My claim that you are scum actually puts me at risk. If I am wrong, and you come up as town somehow, I'll probably get lynched in return. i'm willing to take that risk, obviously, but it's a risk I am taking.
OTOH you are not really taking any risk at all by claiming you are obvtown, as the only way to prove you wrong would be to flip you or investigate you, in which case you are dead anyway. You aren't *really* risking anything by making the claim, because disproving the claim costs you your life in the game anyway.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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I'd really rather see a GL lynch today, but I can only blame myself for being low activity the last few days. Holidays really cut into my inet time.
ArcAngel is neither a town read nor one of my top 3 scum picks, but I won't allow the game day to end in a no lynch, consider thisintent to hammerprior to hitting deadline.-
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karnos
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karnos Mafia Scum
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Lemons is #2. Don't feel like revealing the other one just yet, because it's not too strong of a read and I feel pretty confident that least one of GL & LEmons is scum.In post 310, Charloux wrote:We have 28 more hours till the deadline. Who are your other scumreads apart from GL?-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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I want to agree so much, but this sort of lynch occurred in my last game...In post 313, Darkshadow64540 wrote:ArcAngel has time to post in and run several other games yet is unable to do more than a minimal check in here, that screams scum
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p8450132
All the same crap was going on- very little input into the ongoing game, posts in other games, etc.
Yet he flipped town.
A singular occurrence doesn't prove a rule, but since it just happened in one of my last games it gives me pause. I don't want to rush things, but I will hammer before deadline if nobody else beats me to the punch.
Basically it comes down to this- the poor play/lurking behavior could be a sign of scum or town, but the speed at which the wagon formed makes me think it's town and scum are jumping at the chance to lynch a lurker.
And given the assumption that ArcAngel is today's lynch , I'd really at least like to see her give some final reads and a chance to claim.-
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karnos
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karnos
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karnos
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karnos
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karnos Mafia Scum
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Are you saying that you approach the game differently if there are 2 scum, vs a game with 3 scum or 4 scum? I'm not sure I see the point in that. I look for scummy behavior and try to get it lynched. Sometimes you have 4 scummy players in a game with 3 scum, but if you lynch all 4 of them you will probably get the scum so it doesn't matter if the numbers don't line up perfectly.In post 343, culted wrote:tl;dr he isn't approaching reads from a mindset of sorting a two mafia game if that makes sense.
Take a look yourself and see if you see what I mean.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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What do you think of lemons? Am I reading him wrong?In post 350, Charloux wrote:When a moment comes where a guy like me has the most common sense, it can only mean that town lost.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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I think we all are. I am going to be out most of the day, might be able to check back tonight and comment.In post 370, rb wrote:I really am having a stupid holidays. Sorry I'm struggling to be active atm.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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My feeling is that when the game gets like this, it's because scum is perfectly happy with the way the votes are going and they don't feel any need to play actively and try to steer wagons.
In other words: Charloux is probably town. OTOH, we do have over a week until deadline, so scum could just be slow-playing as well, and the holiday is probably a legitimate reason for many players to be absent.
I wanted to see lemons flip because I'm pretty confident the early wagon on me was scum pushed. Since scum were kind enough to flip GL for me that leaves lemons as the next obvious possibility. Then again, I could see scum strategically killing GL, thinking I would push lemons next- which would make lemons town. Maybe I just had a bunch of bad reads on day 1. But... I would expect at least one scum would be willing to push lemons along with me if that thinking is right, maybe the lack of willingness to jump on his wagon is because he *is* scum. Too much WIFOM.
Anyway, gotta get the game moving.
Blatant OMGUS- VOTE: culted Explain your push on me.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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culted: maybe I was acting like the universe revolves around my reads because nobody else was posting at the time.
I'm sorry if you think I'm scum because of abandoning a push, but that is how the game works. I can't lynch someone by myself. I still think lemons might be scum, but I know that even if I am right about that, there is another scum out there somewhere, so I am not as concerned as you about moving on.
And for the record, it wasn't even OMGUS, I just said that because I wanted to see what you would say.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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My other scum read at this point was culted.In post 311, karnos wrote:
Lemons is #2. Don't feel like revealing the other one just yet, because it's not too strong of a read and I feel pretty confident that least one of GL & LEmons is scum.In post 310, Charloux wrote:We have 28 more hours till the deadline. Who are your other scumreads apart from GL?
RVS vote on RK, followed by a strong push on RK. I see this from scum a lot, since they aren't actually scum hunting they just pick someone to try to lynch, and more often than not it's just whoever they RVSed.
Later, culted switches to Charloux with very little reasoning in 158 - apparently the reason for voting is that Charloux hasn't placed a vote on his scum read.
160 feels like scum adding some plausible deniability in case the wagon does hit a lynch "Tempted to unvote because it feels like genuine frustration but at the same time I don't ever want that in lylo." In other words, culted thinks charloux is town but wants to lynch him anyway.
Yet he doesn't unvote, and then goes VL/A for the rest of the game day. Classic scum strategy- start up a wagon/push, then go afk and when the flip comes up green you blame the player who hammered.
Culted came back to naked vote me in 332, but that was after I was already reading him as scum.-
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karnos
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karnos Mafia Scum
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I find it interesting that culted was scum reading your slot all day day 1, and has seemingly turned around completely given your replace. I also find it interesting that you were afraid to put your scum read at L-1. I can sometimes accept that sort of behavior early day 1, when people are recklessly voting in RVS, but the game is freaking stagnant now and there is no reason to hold back voting.In post 389, Darkshadow64540 wrote:BTD6_maker - v/la makes it a pain to read, I hope like hell you get active real fast because this game is just painful
Lemons - currently town but you really need to get involved more
Charloux - that last post, I want to lynch you just for that... that said you are likely scum
culted - I'm liking you a bit more, you are now an even neutral, please keep it up
karnos - SCUM, and nothing you have said has changed that.
rb - Oh wow, please for the love of god drop the awful attempts at humor, you went from a town read to a mild scum read
I admit I haven't been very active myself, this is only my 2nd game and I'm not really sure how to lead a town with no active players...
I also reiterate my intent to vote Charloux but am only holding back to avoid a quick lynch as my vote puts them at L-1
Hell, if you think I am scum and you are afraid to put Charloux at L-1, why didn't you vote me? Again I am reminded of culted, in day 1 he was voting charloux due to throwing shade but not voting... yet that is exactly what you are doing now and he has seemingly completely reversed on his read of your slot. Culted honestly isn't discussing his reads at all, which is another issue, but I am taking his lack of discussion to mean he thinks you are town.
With rb's vote Charloux is now L-1, so you can be off the hook for that now, but I still question why you were so shy to vote someone earlier.-
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karnos
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karnos
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karnos Mafia Scum
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I think BTD is a decent choice of lynch today, he hasn't been acting very towny IMO. Prefer to lynch BTD over Charloux. Lemons is also on my bad list, but I think BTD's recent play has proven even worse. Culted is looking better, especially if BTD flips red.
I hate how BTD suddenly came out from being lurky when he had a little pressure, and then vanished for a time after putting my at L-1 without acknowledging. I admit I have done similar in other games on day 1 RVS type situations, but this late into day 2 and the game demands more careful play.-
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karnos
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Well that actually took no time at all, both lemons and BTD have been relatively low content posters this game.
Lemons pushes to lynch arcangel over BTD when both are being called out for being lurky. Lemons repeatedly mentions BTD's lack of posting but never places a vote or seriously pushes, he always seems to be willing to give BTD more time. Most recently, with a BTD wagon gaining some traction, lemons tries to redirect again to culted.
BTD posts very little during day 1, just an RVS vote and...
In post 98, BTD6_maker wrote:It's mostly RVS here.In post 137, BTD6_maker wrote:Still mostly RVS.
Followed by chiming in on the GL vs karnos arguments, saying he thinks I am more likely town (but reverses that read after Lion flips green day 2). He also seems willing to lynch Charloux, but then he goes on V/LA before ever moving his vote- seems BTD was content to let the day end in a no lynch if I didn't hammer.In post 142, BTD6_maker wrote:We're still at some phase in the game that is at least very similar to RVS, or the next step after it
Day 2 he has voted me and now moved to culted. With very little original content. One thing that pinged me is he posted less than an hour after I voted him, but overall seems to be very low activity. To me that indicates he is reading and watching the thread, he just isn't posting unless he feels it absolutely necessary. Or possibly he just got phenomenally lucky and happened to have time to post right after I put some pressure on him.
Of note: absolutely zero mention of lemons in his entire iso. I hate digging through other games but if someone else wants to do the work I'm curious if BTD's scum meta usually ignores his partners like that.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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I do remember that game. Sorta. But it was a special case I think.In post 473, Charloux wrote:@Karnos: Not sure how deep in the past you should look for meta. I remember BTD faked a guilty on his scumpartner in micro 618. But since you were in the game as well you know that it was ~half a year ago.
In my last scumgame i got caught with the same method you used just now so this case is kinda sticking in my head. Need some time to rethink since i really think Dark is scum rn.-
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UNVOTE: BTD
I think BTD is probably scum pulling a gambit, but I want to hear his check and result first. In the off-chance I am wrong, I don't want him getting quick hammered before he can share his results.
I'm gunsmith. That is why I said what I did early day 1- I knew nobody could get a false guilty on me, so if someone claimed one it would be scum revealing themselves, was hoping to get a freebie scum lynch.-
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Like this. WTF dude. If you were really a cop, rb, why the hell would you say something like this and then skip your investigation?In post 269, rb wrote:BTD6 is unfuriatingly lurky and will probably need to be investigated.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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Would you go for a lemons lynch today?In post 543, culted wrote:Funny thing is I still kidna think the other scum is lemons.
Cop claims can be 100% verified by leaving the cops alive for a night and checking results tomorrow.
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