Pick Your Power: Double Deck (GAME OVER)

[Vecna]

You realize that is literally what youre saying in your own post you quoted right? (5231)

Have the uses of them fruit vendors ever been discussed in the diamond neighbourhood?

Ive always been wondering why some people suddenly started hard townreading Gerry, I assumed it was because of the hearts neighbourhood and him having the card revive but that clearly wasnt the case.

[Vecna]

Either that or him being the one in the hood that doc-saved Giga, but that apparently wasnt it either.

Taking those things away, I really cannot see any reason why people would townread him.

Is anyone actually townreading Gerry? If so, care to elaborate why?

[Vecna]

Someone entertain me please. Also, get them claims rolling faster already, didnt you get the memo ---> its game solving time

[Vecna]

the answer is indeed pretty simple, Giga doesnt have any cardcop cards :p

[Vecna]

[Vecna]

wish people wouldve card-revived me some stuff, i need more shit to play with

[Vecna]

Have been away the last two days. Gonna take me a bit more to catch up again.

Force gerry to claim or get lynched

[Vecna]

we're vigging him

also nobody tell mathblade that giga/dunn/grey/max as a scumteam is mechanically impossible unless you think A: my inventory result was fake and an arbitrary guess that happened to be correct, or B: Jackel didn't venge anyone

i can verify mcmenno is in the clubs hood btw, and we already know he's in the diamonds hood because of the dunn slip discussion

NO, heart is trump meaning he can have a card with BP.

Claim or LYNCH

[Vecna]

Alright, time for some announcements and semi-whines.

-I told maxous not to shuffle. We had some discussions about it with fishy as well. Shuffling here was suboptimal and dangerous. Even in the worst case scenario (LUV shoots a town other than spyrex) mafia couldnt lynch spyrex today. Now we have safe cards with a lot of game-solving utility. If we shuffle scum might get a vig activated (if they are the holders) and we insta loose today without having a chance to do anything about it.

-Im kinda disappointed the plan to inventorize 2 different suits got changed. What reasons did you guys have for that? Was it really not obvious there had to be another ace of clubs in the deck? With the claims, inventory on clubs + hearts wouldve told us the exact same thing about the A-c regardless + allow us to narrow down who is lying. Heck, even using inventory on the 5-clubs wouldve been better since it shows whether 2 particular people are lying (mightve caught both of them in the act).

-Theres a few other people that could be holding the ace of clubs. Most notably imo is Gerry. The others are far less likely since they claimed their cards way earlier.

-LUV, why did you choose to kill Spyrex? I have a hunch, but I want -YOU- to answer this (noone else speculate on this untill he answers it please).

-I still have an unclaimed card that I drew with my carddraw. Not going to out it since it matters little but it might influence mafia kill choices (I did claim it in my hood).

[Vecna]

oh btw, its 11v4 now. Even in the off-chance Kison is being setup by TWIE, with the scumkill itll be 9v4 tomorrow. In this scenario we can easily speedhammer TWIE before the 48h deadline. The only way mislynching Kison makes us loose today is if tomorrows trump is a scum controlled vig or fruitvendor that can hit an allergic target.

[Vecna]

Yes, I think its vital we take our time today and indeed map out a route for different outcomes. I dont really see anything happening where we dont lynch kison today though.

[Vecna]

As in....no more speedhammers while im away for 2 days where suddenly 2 lynches get pushed through in recordtime :d

[Vecna]

Im gonna go ahead and work on the assumption were wrong about at least 1 person being generically townread. I really want to hear what Uzi has to say

[Vecna]

And Im still quite confident we can still win this. I dont buy all this "oh woe is us" crap for a second. Especially not now that were finally honing in on scum.

If we lynch scum today we still have a mislynch left.

[Vecna]

We only know whats coming up tonight (5-c). Gerry should have a fruit vendor active now but I dont think anyone has an allergy atm.

[Vecna]

ehm 5-s* is whats coming up tongiht

[Vecna]

Who did you track yesterday and what result did you get?

[Vecna]

Also Giga, my advise would be to inventory either all KINGS (to check gerry), the 7 of clubs or the 5 of clubs.

[Vecna]

Whats left in the deck (if all CLAIMS are truthfull):

1x Ace: Ace of diamonds
2x kings: 1 spade and 1 heart (more if Gerry is lying)
4x Queens: 2 Diamonds, 1 club, 1 heart
3x jacks: 2 diamonds, 1 heart
4x 10's: 1 of each
1x 9: 9 of hearts
1x 8: 8 of diamonds
3-4x 7's: 1 spade/diamond and 1 or 2 club's (depending on LUV's holdings)
3 or 4 x 6's: 1 spade, 1 heart and potentially 1 or 2 clubs (depending on Kisons holdings)
1-3 5's (after tonight): 1 spade and 0-2 clubs (luv/TWIE)
4x 4's: 2 diamonds, 1 club/heart
2x 3's: 2 spades
2x 2's: 1 club/heart

[Vecna]

also vecna your card list is wrong

drealmerz has the 9 of hearts that's all i noticed

Yeah I allready noticed my outcome was different from the gm's deck-remaining-number. The 9 of hearts also was trumps once, probably missed that. Think theres 1 more error somewhere, but its not that important anyway. Its just interesting to me to see the rough probabilities of different trumps for the coming day/night cycle which is going to be very important.

Most notably and possibly gamechanging are the comparatively high probabilities for Grey's alpha vig to become active (4/32), or Kison's fruitvendor (although the odds of it also making someone allergic are 2/32 if people do have the 5-c)

[Vecna]

Anyways I really dont see a possible scum setup where TWIE isnt bussing Kison here, unless my reads really are horrible this game. Id strongly advocate for an inventory on the 5-c since it might net us 2 scum or clear TWIE from being the person with the A-c if we lynch Kison and he does flip without the watcher card.

[Vecna]

Still waiting for LUV to post his tracker results.....

What actions have you taken with your cards throughout the game Gerry?

[Vecna]

Also Kison, who did you roleblock N4?

[Vecna]

LUV, who did you jailkeep D1? or more importantly, why did you never use your cardflip?

[Vecna]

Yeah only tonights trump is known, 5s

[Vecna]

Im no longer opposed to a luv lynch. Hes definately in the very likely scumpool and i cant really see a scumteam without him. The only things holding me back is that the scumteam choices make no sense with luv bein scum. Not gonna go into most of them but why on earth would scum luv shoot spyrex, whose mislynch is probably their easiest way to get a win on spades. Also, if we are wrong here, we only have 48 hours to decide between kison and twie so we need to decide there as well.

Either way, if luv is town i bet scum would be jumpinh on this already since hes hated as well.

[Vecna]

did you say who your track was on? don't remember

iso only mentions tracking titus last 7s

I didn't. I want to keep it hidden for now incase another Titus situation happens to me again.

What did you mean with another titus situation luv?

[Vecna]

Hahaha wow, luv scumslipped. His first tracker result that he claimed is fake. Titus got vigged by grey on night 3. The first 7 trump was on day 4. He never could have even tracked titus.

VOTE: LUV

[Vecna]

And what reason might that be........

[Vecna]

Oh dont worry luv, its the scum teams turn to start dropping like flies now, starting with you. I do have to say gj on the wifom of killibg rb and spyrex, you did have quite a few of us fooled with that.

Giving up the spyrex wincondition is quite the strange choice though....Are we getting to close to you and your teammates? Also is that line bragging about the davesaz kill meant to protect dunn or something?

[Vecna]

Id be kinda interested in a neighbourhood with drealmerz btw - he has one today right?. Did he already use his neighbourise on someone?

[Vecna]

And to be fair, this watcher shenanigans will only give a conclusive results if Kison is wrong, if he's right it still doesnt mean shit since he'd have had a 50/50 to guess correctly.

[Vecna]

And to be fair, this watcher shenanigans will only give a conclusive results if Kison is wrong, if he's right it still doesnt mean shit since he'd have had a 50/50 to guess correctly.

Also the problem with this is:

Who do you force to out first the result first Fish?

Consider: TWIE is real. Outs the watcher result. Kison blindly sheeps.
Other scenario: Kison is scum. Is forced to out result first. Kison states no visit. TWIE claims visit. Kison states he was just messing around to not have his result sheeped to see if TWIE Falls for the trap.

So many nonsense can go on with it, but I guess its the best we have.

[Vecna]

alright that seems like the best way to do it yeah. Focus on Kison only, no shitting around. Get it right and maybe die or get it wrong and get instakilled.

[Vecna]

CallGM

Will Fish get a gm notification if maxous targets him with neighbourise, but it fails since theyre already in a hood together?

[Vecna]

Theres 2 ways to handle today:

Option 1:Grey confirms before the 48h deadline that he's shooting Kison. EVERYONE IS UNVOTED when the 48h passes so that scum cannot hammer on any single voter in case Grey is scum.

Option 2: Grey confirms before the 48h deadline that he's shooting Gerry. We lynch Kison before the 48h mark OR are ALL UNVOTED at the 48h mark.

At any rate noone should cast a vote before Grey confirms he's shooting, and on who. We also need KISON to out his watcher report asap.

[Vecna]

Fishy, can you pass on some of those passages that make you TR Dreal so strongly through our Pt chain?

[Vecna]

It does matter, NOONE should be voting untill the 48h deadline is done and Greys shot has gone through.

[Vecna]

Also at this point id have no problem to use both our lynches today to get rid of Dunn and Gerry since we cannot have this shit in Lylo and im convinced were gonna hit scum that way and have 1 left.

[Vecna]

@Vecna: I don't think your Option 2 (shoot gerry) is sensible - with the TWIE/Kison situation, Kison is much the better kill. I certainly don't think Grey should shoot without direction.

After Kison is down - I agree, though with a slightly heavy heart, that Dunn and gerry are high on the lynch menu. Though not necessarily both of them, since it's harder to tunnel on someone who's dead.

BTW, I've pointed out something I expect you already know through our chain.

Not sure I know what u meant with that last point

[Vecna]

Bang bang.

VOTE: Shoot: Kison

Derp.

Shoot

: Kison

W/E

Pm it to the gm as well

[Vecna]

Like, you wanted the dipole resolved.

Like, it still will be.

Like, my shot is just as much pro-town regardless of which of you I like, shoot.

So like, eat lead.

I hope you do realize the only 2 people you can shoot are Kison and Gerry right? Because im getting the feeling from these posts youre trying to shoot TWIE, who doesnt have the cards in his hand for your vig to work.

[Vecna]

Late to the party with my stating the obvious comment ^

Also Maxous isnt scum.

Also if Grey doesnt shoot Kison we lynch him.

Also, I wouldnt be shocked if anyone is scum except for 2 people.

[Vecna]

The fact he's not even outing a watcher result makes it rather obvious indeed.

[Vecna]

Some points for consideration:
-grey vigging titus, who was scumreading and pushing both kison and gerry hard. Ive been townreading the slot for the longest of times, and I fully aplauded the Titus kill at the time, but with the flip information this makes even more sense as a scum play.

-Im still proposing we lynch both dunn and gerry today. Sacrefising one town to catch a scum is a good trade to make now, and i really wouldnt want to be caught in lylo with either (unless one of them flipped scum before that). Of the two I still think Dunn is more towny, and if were only lynching one id prefer gerry + grey.

[Vecna]

Titus was scumreading kison and luv, not gerry*

[Vecna]

@fish worst case scenario tomorrow is 3v2.

If grey is scum and either of his vig powers become active again during the coming night/day/scum wins. Theres another reason why he's a good lynch and likely scum but ill communicate it through the pt chain.

[Vecna]

@Vecna: I kind of think Max is scum due to a secret we know and stuff that's happened today. I think you've interpreted the same things as pointing to Grey, but I think they point fairly squarely at Max - particularly as Kison was V/LA today. Thoughts?

I find the Dunn wagon underwhelming in case and in composition.

VOTE: gerry

I know what you mean, but we cannot draw conclusions from it yet. The same reasoning could be applied to Grey's alignment if you know what I mean - But lets not discuss this any further

[Vecna]

is there any kings in the deck. i shouldnt have picked 2 kings. i didnt think i'd get all the cards

still 2 kings left

[Vecna]

Ok, im going to take a stance here.

I do NOT want to lynch Dunn.

He actually voted for ME and FISH just now out of all people. If he was scum, there is no way on earth he would vote for someone that could just hammer him straight away. The reason for voting me may be complete nonsense (yes it was weekend, people do stuff during those), and I should be the most blatant town out there by now, but scum wouldnt do it after townreading me all game long. It makes no sense for scum to invite a hammer the way he just did.

Also fish, if you really think maxous is scum (I really dont btw) then you have to agree with me that Dunn cannot be his teammate, unless he really is upping the wifom game about being so inquisitive about the secret (see top of this page).

Ive been happy to hammer any number of mediocre wagons this game, but this will not be one of them.

Scum is in Gerry/Grey/TWIE/Dreal

And of those I want to get rid of Gerry most for going to cause a mislynch tomorrow or the day after during mylo/lylo. Grey should be the second for a number of reasons ill not go into right now.


VOTE: Gerryoat

[Vecna]

I know what you mean, but we cannot draw conclusions from it yet. The same reasoning could be applied to Grey's alignment if you know what I mean - But lets not discuss this any further

Do you guys intend to reveal your super secret alignment info before or after these lynches go through

Stop fishing

[Vecna]

and I should be the most blatant town out there by now, but scum wouldnt do it after townreading me all game long.

I was getting town feels on drealmerz but maybe I'm wrong. Other people have said drealmerz is town from secret neighborhood stuff and you seem to disagree

I have no acces to this so I cannot judge it for myself. Based on public play I townread you and Fish only. I TR max for his play in our PT.

[Vecna]

TIL Vecna is stupid.

How about you adress my argument as opposed to just making blabla-statements like this?

[Vecna]

As soon as maf realized it was double lynch today, they knew they could just lynch me and Dunn together.

They knew they could probably mislynch dunn easily more like it

[Vecna]

Because town should just lay down and die, as opposed to fight for their lives and find a bw on actual scum? Right?

And youre completely misunderstanding my argument: he didnt fish for an easy counter-wagon. He was scumreading the 2 people that are LEAST LIKELY of everyone to result in a counterwagon. There is absolutely zero chance for a wagon to start on me or Fish. There is a way higher likelyhood that me or fish just hammers him on the spot for his rediculous scumreads.

[Vecna]

confbias ahoy matey

[Vecna]

Hmmm I just realized Scum could get Dunn lynched at any point by killing someone right now.

[Vecna]

Which means either im wrong and dunn is indeed scum or scum is really bad at numbers.

[Vecna]

oh yeah, that is a third option

[Vecna]

Oh its happening, just not the first lynch

[Vecna]

oh nevermind, I thought you voted grey there.

[Vecna]

Honest, I have no idea what scum is upto.

They made LUV kill Spyrex of all people lol. Their main wincondition wouldve come from forcing a mislynch on him on any spade.

I really wouldnt be surprised if they indeed didnt notice they couldve just forced a mislynch

[Vecna]

Theres some other reason for it as well.

If Dunn is town and scum just really is bad and didnt notice they could get him mislynched I actually want to force them to use their kill now. Makes the lynchpool for the second lynch smaller by 2 instead of 1.

[Vecna]

Is me keeping you alive boring you Dunn?

[Vecna]

Fish I instructed maxous to pass along some more minor instructions/deliberations in case I depart this world.

[Vecna]

Nah, I'm pretty much the front-runner if Dunnstral is actually town.

I don't care, though. His scum flip makes it stupid to scumread me. Hearts hood having scum in it makes all kinds of sense, but it makes no sense to have two.

Yeah having card revive + a vig and the wifom of not being teammates is terrible

/sarcasm



I know its unlikely, dont jump on me

[Vecna]

I don't even know why people are voting me, unless they still think I slipped

Grey, what's the reasoning behind your scumread?

Because scum

[Vecna]

Yeah I have pretty good reasons to townread him, and also a pretty good way of detecting if he's scum or not.

[Vecna]

Scum is in Gerry/Grey/TWIE/Dreal

Do you have reasons to townread maxous

I have no desire to go after twie - In fact if there's 3 town on me right now I'd probably prefer to lose.

How the fuck does Vecna consider the possibility that TWIE might be scum after he was directly responsible for Kison's lynch?

That shit makes no sense.

Except TWIE was leashed to go onto Kison. The reason im suspicious is because Scum knew that his card cop was gonna be active like 3 phases ahead of time, and still didnt opt to kill him while they had such glaring weaknesses in their cards.

[Vecna]

TWIE is one person that is never getting lynched.

Trying to throw his name back into the lynch pool is a scumclaim as far as I'm concerned.

ScumTWIE had EVERY reason to bus Kison at that point since its the only way a Kison/TWIE/LUV +1 team would still have a shot at winning. TWIE was getting scumread HEAVILY. So was Kison. Suggesting that TWIE is out of the lynchpool is laughable.

If TWIE did not cardcop on KISON or lied about Kison's cards it was basicly suicide. Especially with 2 inventories and another cardcop around, and the high likelyhood of kison getting hung at some point regardless.

If TWIE was town, scum also had every inclination to kill TWIE when it became apparent. Why not have LUV shoot town TWIE instead of Spyrex their easiest way to a victory?

There are more good reasons to lynch TWIE than Dunnstral actually as far as im concerned.

But ofcourse im just being an idiot, claiming scum or whatever other type of nonsense you wanna throw at me.

[Vecna]

Yeah I have pretty good reasons to townread him, and also a pretty good way of detecting if he's scum or not.

this is empty nothingness

and yet dunnstral is alllll ready to eat it up...

And you think to know that its empty nothingness....why exactly?

[Vecna]

if anyone in this game is considering a situation where kison and i are both scum, get help.

Grey + TWIE, sitting in a tree

[Vecna]

Not today

[Vecna]

Im not sure where you got the impression it was a matter of discussion

[Vecna]

Ok this is the little secret.

My card-draw was used to draw a card a few days ago. I drew the 8 of diamonds, a WATCHER card. I am watching FISH.

Both Fish and Maxous were the only people aware of this information. I told Maxous id watch a random person.

We were all hoping scum was going to kill the person I was watching. I chose the person I thought was the most likely to die from this.

This would essentially "townclear" me, maxous and have a scum for us to lynch tomorrow (if he didnt get lynched today of course).

That is why I told everyone to shut up and stop asking questions (shame it had to brought up to begin with), and why I told you to wait until tomorrow. The secret couldn't influence anything or give any information until the scum made their kill, and even then I couldnt out I had a watcher until tomorrow because else scum would just bus whoever made the kill.

[Vecna]

I'm surprised by TWIE's death. Vecna, are you happy to claim now?

I need to throw a good chunk of time at this game to get myself back into it. That might be today, but if not will definitely be tomorrow.

This scum kill once again makes zero sense.

Either they KNEW I had a watcher, or they tried to get Dunn lynched with this kill because TWIE wasnt voting him (lol rule 13). BUT they also could have just killed Fishy for that lynch to go through. Or me.

This means the following:

If Fish is scum: Why not kill me?

If Maxous is scum: Why not kill me?

If none of them is scum: Why not kill fish or me?

Conclusion: Scum is playing fucking mind-games and is using the kill to try to frame people

[Vecna]

Or they knew of rule 13 and tried to clear Dunn. But then again, why not kill fish or me but TWIE of all people.

[Vecna]

By far the most important question though is:

WHY did scum not save their kill to murder GREY to stop the second lynch in case one of them is lynched by it?

[Vecna]

why the fk would you not watch the person who had the guilty and was obviously not teamed with Kison.

Because of all people I thought he was BY FAR the least likely to get killed

[Vecna]

The kill makes me feel a little better about Fishy because the reality is if Fishy or I are scum then Vecna would likely be dead.
We couldn't of known who Vecna targeted.

The only scenario where I can think of is that its Fish + dunnstral and they dont want to get rid of me because im defending dunn.

Maybe they knew of rule 13 and hoped for unvotes by making it look like scum tried to lynch dunn?

[Vecna]

The kill makes me feel a little better about Fishy because the reality is if Fishy or I are scum then Vecna would likely be dead.
We couldn't of known who Vecna targeted.

The only scenario where I can think of is that its Fish + dunnstral and they dont want to get rid of me because im defending dunn.

Maybe they knew of rule 13 and hoped for unvotes by making it look like scum tried to lynch dunn?

Or kill someone you "obviously wouldn't watch"

My point is it then wouldve been better to just kill me

[Vecna]

I wonder if another scum fake claimed cards and they were afraid of drawing a 9.
Or they were afraid of drawing a 5 i.e. a watcher.
..Actually the 9 seems more likely.
Who has cards that haven't been proven?

Only gerry has 2 cards that havent been proven (the kings). If kills were made solely to remove cardcops/tracking abilities he also wouldve been a better target than TWIE (if town)

[Vecna]

Still waiting for someone to tell me I'm wrong about drealmerz holding scum cards

Id give my view of this but probably more informative to have him answer it

[Vecna]

Why would scum bother to frame you, Dunn?

When? I'm not saying the kill on TWIE was framing me. They straight up tried to kill me. I don't know how I'd have known about rule 13 as scum since I've been clueless about mechanics all game. People aren't even bothering to reevaluate

Even I wasnt aware of this rule but if scum were using the kill to either frame or save you they probably wouldve asked the gm about it before doing so

[Vecna]

well it seems like a rather big gamble to kill someone for that purpose and not be sure if itll have the desired effect

[Vecna]

I dont really think a King during the night will be useful. All cards from other people have been proven as far as I know, and mafia cannot kill anymore since they just did.

Not sure if that was a townslip or dumbtell though

[Vecna]

k-h tomorrow during would be quite usefull though

[Vecna]

Exciting.

Maybe it was a townslip after all

[Vecna]

To clarify a minor point: I didn't know who Vecna was watching (my best guess would have been Grey; that's the potential watch I was getting excited about in the hood)

I'm gonna shuffle the deck. This does nothing, except in the edge case where Vecna is scum and used card spy today.

Yeah I was doubting between you and Grey. Chose you because I had the suspicion grey might be naughty after all.

The fact scum again didnt save their kill to protect against the second lynch only makes this suspicion stronger.

[Vecna]

VOTE: Grey

Prefer this over Gerry after today

[Vecna]

UNVOTE: Grey

Not as first lynch though

[Vecna]

I can see it for Gerry

[Vecna]

Lights out lynching

[Vecna]

Which is interesting, because 3 people picking it, off which 1 is town. Scum mightve chosen to wifom pick the card on one person to get town credit.

This means one thing:

Grey + Drealmerz can both be town
Grey + Drealmerz can contain 1 scum
Grey + Drealmerz CANNOT POSSIBLY contain 2 scum. Unless theyre literally the dumbest fucks ever for trying to get 2 scum as lovers.

[Vecna]

The claims went from bottom to top, so he claimed to not have gotten it before anyone claimed to have got it.

[Vecna]

Who else do you see as scum, vecna?

Atm I can see everyone as scum actually. The last 24 hours have completely fucked over any reads I had before.

If youre town as I suspect, then anyone is possible.

If youre scum, then I strongly suspect the other scum is Fishy.

[Vecna]

Maybe scum just really like the current balance and where things are going and dont wanna interfere

[Vecna]

Well they avoided the watcher guilty by doing do......which is still something that should not be forgotten

[Vecna]

Maybe scum just really like the current balance and where things are going and dont wanna interfere

Enough to not care about the second lynch? I doubt it. There's a large pool of possible second lynches here.

Not anymore as far as im concerned

[Vecna]

actually, that is exactly what that kill does, it's not about TWIE

it's about fishy, vecna, and me - it's an implication kill, scum want us to think "why isn't fishy/vecna/drealmer dead?" for example, and suspicion switches 1 of us - rather than kill 1 of us to split up our strength, they kill a very-not-likely-lynch in TWIE and increase the chances of one of the harder TR players getting lynched / turning us against each other (the instant thought to my brain when seeing the TWIE kill was "not fishy? omg fishy is scum", but I made myself cool on that quick-jump and backed off the thought, because, no, I can't let fear dictacte the reads, I'm confident in fishy being town, and I've gone back and thought that back over, and yes, fishy is town)

so then I start to wonder about vecna being scum, and I figure both fishy+vecna can't be scum and so if vecna were scum, he'd have killed fishy or maxous

it's all fucking smart, but I'm not buying it dunnstral is smart scum, it's him, and maxous pretty sure - I'm not tunneling my old evaluation, that's just what I still keep coming to as most likely

yes, I'll show why his "case" on me is BS, just haven't gotten to it (distracted by...things...)

I actually agree that this is the most likely/logical explenation

[Vecna]

Maybe scum just really like the current balance and where things are going and dont wanna interfere

Enough to not care about the second lynch? I doubt it. There's a large pool of possible second lynches here.

Not anymore as far as im concerned

What do you mean?

I meant that if you think of possible second lynches from where everyone is, I think you'd say something like Grey, Gerry, Max, and probably me these days. Any scum in there (which I'd bet there is) and they'd think twice before allowing a double lynch.

I meant the scum kill narrowed the pool of people for the second lynch down to 1 for me. Because of the exact reason that you mentioned.

[Vecna]

How fascinating that Dunn is still here now.

Had a change of heart grey?

[Vecna]

Anyways we only have limited time left for the second lynch, and we have three-four people that will continue to vote for you regardless of what happens Dunn. Even if my lingering suspicion that this is a scum driven wagon is correct, its still better to lynch you now than tomorrow where the mislynch might cost us the game.

Im still not sure whether the scum kill was meant to kill/frame you or try and get you off the hook, but this has to happen for the game to move on.

VOTE: Dunnstral

[Vecna]

VOTE: maxous

Dude stop

[Vecna]

VOTE: GREY

This is the lynch we need, right fucking now. I present you my reasons for wanting this.

-Twice during lights out lynching (where he was the only one with the card), MAFIA DID NOT KILL HIM. Not doing it during the first one I understand somewhat, since the odds of them being lynched are low. Not saving the kill to kill grey today during the second lynch to stop it means either Grey is scum and couldnt be killed, or mafia were totally fine letting one of their own be lynched. Notice that if grey was town, scum could have saved the kill, observed if scum or town gets lynched with the second lynch, and either let grey live to get a second mislynch, or kill grey to save their teammate if a scum was up on the chopping block.

-Grey vigged Titus. Nothing extraordinary on its own. However Titus was heavily pushing and scumreading both Kison and LUV who we now know to have been scum. Titus was correct, and the only way of getting rid of her was to have someone that appeared as town vig here so noone would expect that scum wanted her gone. If scum had used a factional kill on Titus, people wouldve looked into the reads and pushed on kison and Luv. This shot by grey is the main reason mafia has done so well up untill now. And it was done to protect his 2 scumteammates.

-Notice that as soon as I stated I wanted Grey for the second lynch he abandoned his crusade against Dunn to vote me. He was pushing that for the longest of times, and one scumread on him and his read is suddenly out of the window.

-Grey has the alpha vig, and theres still 4 out of 30 remaining cards that will activate it. If it becomes trump during the night or next day phase, scum will win straight away if dunn was town. Grey drafted that alpha vig as 6th in line. NOTICE how scum started killing off all people above Grey straight out of the gate. Why would they kill off Rb that was townreading LUV? Why would they kill creature? Im suspecting its because they wanted to remove other potential people that could have the alpha vig so that Grey could kill people.

This is the lynch that needs to happen.

[Vecna]

Just hold your water on voting me until tomorrow.

Dunnstral flipping scum makes lynching me stupid.

VOTE: Maxous

Yeah lets conveniently wait for you to mislynch on a town and get a vig-shot and win the game

[Vecna]

Just hold your water on voting me until tomorrow.

Dunnstral flipping scum makes lynching me stupid.

VOTE: Maxous

Yeah lets conveniently wait for you to mislynch on a town and get a vig-shot and win the game

No other scum thus far have flipped with neighborhood cards.

At all.

Dunnstral was most likely their neighborhood spy.

So then why did you unvote him and make someone else hammer the slot?

[Vecna]

Why didn't you all me about it when it happened?

I wanted to see if you would keep your vote or hammer your scumread when the deadline passed. Notice how I did question you about it when the deadline passed.

[Vecna]

Atm I can see everyone as scum actually. The last 24 hours have completely fucked over any reads I had before.

Stuff like this rings like scum to me.

Scum love flipping the table on their reads because it helps them dodge accountability.

Apparently it only rings like scum to you when its people that announce theyre going to want to lynch you soon. Fish stated the exact same thing yet you never commented on that. Also, are you seriously trying to claim that im trying to dodge accountability? The only one trying to dodge accountability with anything was you unvoting your scumread.

[Vecna]

So now for the real question in this game: I asked max several times in our PT to convince either Drealmerz or Fish to paste/convey what happened in the Drealmerz + Fish PT. We need to know how the two of you can townread eachother so hard

Both of them refused. WHY on earth would you refuse this as town with 48hour lylo coming up?

[Vecna]

Fish/Drealmerz:

Did Maxous ask you both to pass along the contents of your PT?
If yes, why did you refuse to share?

[Vecna]

Ill not be home today for the next 10-12 hours, starting in 45 minutes.

I am not pleased that I could not use the night phase to deduce the credibility of the strong townreads that fish has, and thus whether his POV analysis is credible.

Right now I could see any of the following scenario's:

Fish + Drealmerz as a scumteam.
Fish bussing Gerry
Gerry + any of the other 2 as scum.
Maxous + Fish team seems unlikely
Maxous + drealmerz team seems unlikely

Proposed course of action: Rule out fish + drealmerz team by confirming whether theyre not full of shit. If the shared pt stuff is good enough, Lynch Gerry. If theyre full of shit, lynch the 2 of them.

[Vecna]

In other words; Either fish is right, or he's scum with dreal

[Vecna]

Alright, some last words before I go to bed....

-Drealmerz is NOT lynchproof today
-We should indeed not wait untill near the deadline in case shenanigans happen and someone claiming to support a lynch suddenly withholds his vote. Some urgency is indeed required
-Ill support a Gerry lynch since literally everyone seems to want it and max has ruled out a Fish lynch. If fish + drealmerz are scum, we loose by default since I doubt gerrry is going to vote any of them as well so we might as well get through it quickly then. Im still pretty sure that either Fish or Dreal is bussing here and im not really too keen on Fish giving out voting advice for tomorrow. Either way, im pretty sure ill win a 3way against any bussing scum here regardless of fish's advice, but we'll see about that tomorrow.
-Fish has been my #1 townread pretty much all game, but Maxous as scum is becoming more and more unlikely here from my point of view. Scum Maxous wouldnt just state he wont lynch fish here, and he wouldnt just sheep another one of his townreads. Remember this tomorrow Fish if im the kill instead tonight - especially since me being the kill would make little sense, unless im correct.

[Vecna]

Ill be back to vote in 8 hours or so. Hoping for some more discussion in the meantime.

[Vecna]

appears im allready sleeping.....Drealmerz actually is lynchproof - its a hearts and not a nice power. oops. Guess that settles it then

[Vecna]

Sorry Gentlemen. Dunn and Titus had it right.

VOTE: Gerryoat

gg

It was me and Drealmerz

[Vecna]

Im guessing its mostly out coordinated bus on Maria (which resulted in Grey shooting Titus for defending her) that caused us the game.

Shit wouldve gone completely different otherwise if that sequence of events didnt happen. Your sacrifice was not in vain Maria

[Vecna]

I wanted to kill you Fish and use my watcher ability to frame a guilty but my partner didnt agree on that since he liked keeping you around.

[Vecna]

I dont see no GM shutting down the fun yet, so id say no, its not too late.

[Vecna]

You kept prodding though to see if I was Drealz partner though, thats the reason you ended up dying so soon. Repeatedly you asked me to test whether I had information that I shouldnt have had so I couldve sworn you were onto both me and dreal.

[Vecna]

Was there some sort of dead/god thread or whatever?

[Vecna]

Id love for our scum pt to be public. Noones going to be reading those 70 or so pages anyways :p

[Vecna]

TL;DR: drealmer is 100% town. If drealmer is not town and we lose the game because of it, I will buy a deck of mafiascum cards, select the cards drealmer holds, and eat them.

I might die in 48 hours time, so I think this needs saying now. drealmer neighbourised me yesterday (note for Max: about an hour after I told you he hadn't ).

In that neighbourhood, drealmer is obviously town. He's very clearly trying extremely hard to win this for the town. The Uzi lynch yesterday was his idea (I likely wouldn't have pushed it without him). Think of the most obviously town scumhunting display you have seen. drealmer is about that townish.

This hasn't quite carried through to the thread. The reasons are pretty clear to me; he feels less inhibited in a neighbourhood with one friendly, responsive player to talk to, who he reads as obvtown. In this thread, where the players are nearly half scum, and it's quite hard to get the town on board with ideas, he struggles to get as much traction (his word).

So, I know nobody listens to a dead townie. But if I die, please remember: I can see posts that you can't see. I don't throw around super strong townreads lightly; this is the strongest townread I can imagine based on posting alone. drealmer is town, and if you lynch him, you'll regret it.

looking forward to it

hahhahah

[Vecna]

Subject: Pick Your Power: Double Deck (DEAD THREAD)

Rofl

[Vecna]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Yeah, we did gain quite a lot of advantages due to the Massclaim and Dreal + Giga hood. Just remember that you can pretty much fill in all the blanks very early if you have the information of what 5 extra people are holding.

[Vecna]

Kraska, back from the dead. Couldnt stay away eh?

[Vecna]

One little hint though; drop all the criticism of other people their playstyle in PT's. Ive learned to ignore it after a while but it makes for a very very unpleasant playing experience for people.

[Vecna]

Yeah matt i was a little disappoint

[Vecna]

A little survey for those interested:

Which powers did you like/dislike?

I personally loved the powers with deck information (card spy/inventory) & manipulation, and card draw/revive. I totally expected all card revives to be picked by the players in the early-mid draft, which is why we didnt end up drafting them because they were seen as too likely to be gone already for our draft numbers.

Rewarding staying alive longer by having your power grow overtime is really great, allthough the cards could use -some- tweaks I think (more later)

I really would also not remove the deck rigging. Sure its a complicated mechanism that can be abused, but it allows for a lot of creative uses that make this setup a lot of fun - might need some minor tweaks to avoid infinite loops though . I think the real fun here starts when both town and scum teams have one and then you have to figure out which person above/below you in the draft is stopping you from abusing your awesome plan.

The scum factional kill disabler: The downside of this card will get NEVER activated since town will ofcourse never lynch the person on this suit. Maybe make it apply to any death during spades so that scum has a shot at activating the downside, AND requiring the person to play better to avoid having to out themselves as having the card.

Do you think the setup was within the realm of balanced and not favouring one side too heavily?

Very hard to judge after this one game. I think number-wise, 18vs 5 is ok....but....A LOT of very strong tools were not utilized this game. Personally I think there are (way?) too many cop cards in this game, and if town had picked more cops + card cops I think this game becomes virtually unwinnable for scum if a few of them come as trumps early. Defences against cops are only in clubs and diamonds, and requires a heavy investment for scum. On the other hand, scum could have made some killer combinations with card cops + vigs to seriously up our killing potential, but even then itll become a race against the clock to eliminate all the cops in time I think and you have a lot more card-cop liabilities.

Scum having strongman on half of all trumps also probably makes way too many other cards a bit on the weak side for town since it makes all bulletproof/docs even less likely to save someone.

The card draw / card revive balance is a bit off. Card revive is a lot better in what it achieves since you can pick the card and person. But card revive has decent other skills (especially the 7-h) while all the card draw cards have have downsides, especially for town.

I personally feel a new deck of 104 cards needs to be used to determine trumps, so that all cards have equal probability of showing up. Card spy and deck rig still put cards on this deck. Deck rigging a card should remove that card from the game after it has become trumps so it cannot be card revived and deck rigged again. After a card has been trump it gets removed from the real deck as well so that Inventory can still be applied to the old deck.

Deck rigging and Deck vetoes should probably switch suits/ranks. Deck rigging is too strong to be 25% activation. Deck vetoes is too weak to be 1/13 activation. The other way around probably works perfectly.

Would you play in a future version of this setup?

Yes. Can we start tomorrow? Pretty please? How about next week? No?

What new powers/modifiers would you like to see in future versions of this setup?

Maybe make a few(!) cards that are active at all times. For example: All your other rank abilities also activate when a rank one "cardrank" higher is trump (for example: 8 cards activate on an 8 or 9). Downside attached of permanent fruit allergy.

Some other interesting abilities could be thought off im sure that can boost your other cards, and come with a very big downside - that can also make fruit allergy/vendors interesting to pick.

Allowing people to get creative with cardbuilds increases the fun for mechanics-nerds, but might make the game too complicated for some others however (and might be hard to balance properly).

[Vecna]

Actually cancel my point about card-rigging being bette as a rank power. That would completely ruin the card since you have just as high odds of just activating the cost that way without havin to sacrefise a card. Also card vetoes were fine since they had other very strong abilities attached.

[Vecna]

Hmmm how does card draw as a suit power sound? Then it can come with a negative utility attached while simultaneously playing into the desired effect of growing power over time at the cost of lesser initial power. It did indeed feel to me this game that as just a rank power it didnt activate nearly enough over the course of a game to justify the investment (allthough the miller power is also desirable for scum). Having it on a suit is probably slightly too strong again though.

Also I really liked the interaction we had going on this game during the card spy + 7 of diamonds and the card draw. Maybe card draw can be placed on a corresponding rank/suit to be a potential counter to deck-rigging.

I actually really like your suggestion of looking at the bottom 3 cards for deck-rigging and picking one to put on top. Makes it much less likely that it is a 2, while also allowing you to keep your card. This coupled with potentially it activating at the same time as card draw would make for some interesting dynamics I think.

Anyways your answers here show that you guys put a lot more thought into it than me and you seem to have a solid grasp of what youre doing.

I do really like fish's card ideas.

Also I guess this is not a popular opinion but I actually really liked being able to use our factional kill at any time during the day. This made for some very entertaining strategizing about the optimal time to use it and the impact it would have on the game, and it allows for a lot more mind-games mid-phase (as what happened with TWIE, and us killing RB making people think LUV was town). I agree a solution should be found though for the 48h lylo problem since that should not be a side effect of it. Killing someone 48hours into the game on day1 might not be desirable either.

Another small side-note: I think when you PM people at the start of the game about the draft you should add some very clear message in there that what theyre drafting cannot become trump again. During the drafting stages I was under the impression a fresh deck would be used for the actual game. Not sure if it was just me being clueless and not reading the rules properly enough, but I feel it is a very important message that should be made extremely clear to everyone since it has such a big impact on your choices.

[Vecna]

Give card - pass one of your cards to another player.

Fun for passing bad cards as well as good.

Haha this would be so dirty for scum in combination with vigs/fruit vendors. I LOVE this idea.

Imagine card-spying...."hmmm a 2 is coming up. Here fishy, have my innocent child/suicide card."

[Vecna]

Or passing a beloved card to a player just before hammering him.

Or framing someone with a pro-scum card when you know he's about to be card-copped.

Yep, I think this game needs a Give card - card

[Vecna]

Works nicely for town as well. Confirm yourself with the 2-h, then hand it to a scum player while the 2 is active