Open 665 - Friends and Enemies - Game Over! Town Victory!!!

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I've never played with Alisae. My first instinct was that his entrance was a clever way to expose some knee-jerk cc from a derpy player with a Mason roll while pretending to be early scumhunting. At least that sounds like something I'd do as scum.

Hawk, can you do me a favor and link me a town game or two with this MO?

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I like LUV.

I don't see what was scummy about Grey before, but that reaction was interesting.

VOTE: -Grey-

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that reaction was interesting.

What reaction?

Grey's reaction to Alisae's vote.

Not enough has happened to really take any votes seriously. Even the "serious" votes at this stage are pointless because more information is going to filter in. Now, Grey's response to Alisae's vote suggested two things.
1) He assumes Alisae is town.
2) He's dismissed Alisae's reasoning, and has reduced the motive to "spite". That means he took the vote seriously, and is hoping others won't.

I'll admit that I have no idea what Alisae's rationale was for the vote, and I can't tell what material is around to call it a spite vote, but they've become irrelevant. If Alisae's opening behavior is normal, it suggests that he likes to actively scumhunt. I assume that also means that he'll push his reads. If Grey is scum, that's a good reason for him to be a little twitchy about Alisae voting/pushing him

right away

.

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I'm finding FancyPants interesting too.

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Admittedly I couldn't find the thread.

I had the same problem. I'm used to mods giving a link to the game in the role PM. I assumed that he'd add it with the "go post" PM when the game started, but I guess those weren't sent out either. If I hadn't stumbled cross the thread by accident, I'd be in the same boat.

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@ fancypants - i often find it easier to work out town and try for P.O.E. Anyway, Alisae looks town to me.
I don't get the grey wagon.

What don't you get in particular? I'd like to believe that I explained my thoughts okay. Did you just disagree?

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By the way, drama stirs up activity. More votes on -Grey- would cause drama.

@Hawk, how did FancyPants make your three-person town list?

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What don't you get in particular? I'd like to believe that I explained my thoughts okay. Did you just disagree?

i thought someone voted for him cos he said someting to the mod. i dont see how that was scummy.

...so you've not bothered to read the four whole pages before this one? Are you overwhelmed by the breakneck pace of this dynamic and ever-changing game? (I suppose that would explain the catchup post you made earlier)

Even if you thought that was the reason for one vote, one vote does not a wagon make.

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@ConManMick

Spoiler:

@ fancypants - i often find it easier to work out town and try for P.O.E. Anyway, Alisae looks town to me.
I don't get the grey wagon.

What don't you get in particular? I'd like to believe that I explained my thoughts okay. Did you just disagree?

What don't you get in particular? I'd like to believe that I explained my thoughts okay. Did you just disagree?

i thought someone voted for him cos he said someting to the mod. i dont see how that was scummy.

...so you've not bothered to read the four whole pages before this one? Are you overwhelmed by the breakneck pace of this dynamic and ever-changing game? (I suppose that would explain the catchup post you made earlier)

Even if you thought that was the reason for one vote, one vote does not a wagon make.

Where are you extrapolating this from

He said he didn't get the wagon. Since I had explained my vote thoroughly, I asked whether he needed clarification, or if he simply disagreed. His response was to cherry-pick something pretty unrelated to the actual wagon, as if he didn't bother to actually read. I found it incredulous.

I also wove in a passive-agressive remark about how ridiculous it is to make a catchup post (which he made on page 3 or 4) so early in a slow game.

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@Alisae, are you new to mafia in general, new to this website, or are you an alt?

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@antihuman, I asked Alisae about his experience because of his "form your own reads" comment. Not sure if it's ignorant or scummy. I'm waffling on my read because I'm trying to figure out his angle.

Fluff doesn't phase me when we're getting acquainted. It's dressing fluff up as not-fluff that concerns me (that wasn't directed at Alisae in particular).

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What about mozamis?

Sorry, I just realized that I completed skipped this part of your question. Mozamis is certainly in the bottom half for me. My vote might end up there later, if I never find a reason to TR him.

On the other hand, he's the easiest vote right now, and I've not seen a lot of scum flips Day 1. (None first-hand, outside a game on MU where the PL just happened to be scum)

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@LUV, the last time I played with you, your reads won the game for us. I'm interested in your ongoing opinion of the gamestate. (by the way, I know you're V/LA now, but you have a habit of "forgetting" you're in games. Please don't forget about us.)

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@Toffee, I don't like summary posts from people who aren't sub-ins. It creates an illusion of participation, and it's pretty close to solidifying as a scumtell for me. So is an immediate "yup, you're town" when you voice concern about that player. It seems aimed to appease.

Through a Pants-is-scum lens, I don't see a drive to move the game forward. I see a drive to appear like he's trying.

The reason I've not moved my vote yet is the passing dismissal of my Grey post. He didn't directly argue or defend. He just implied it was overanalysed and then ignored it.

Grey, if anyone, is laying low. It's surprising that Pants as town wouldn't see that over Snowman whose one post is far more NAI.

@Antihuman, I'm noticing a communication error between us, as this is the second time I've been confused by how you've summarized or interpreted my statements. I'm not comfortable with the Moz wagon because I'm not sure yet whether he's scum or lynchbait.

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Ah ok. Yeah re-reading again I still don't like Grey's play.
VOTE: Grey

Ali...what about Grey's play do you not like? Despite you voting, unvoting and re-voting him can't find your concerns.

This seems like a lazy baseless vote on the leading wagon.

Then I will explain them to you. Grey is usually a lot more aggressive when he is town and from what he has posted he has come off as careful and safe.

I find this questionable. Your response suggests that you're satisfied to use the meta of someone you're familiar with over scum hunting. You began the game with that was supposed to be a reaction test. Now that we're beginning to dig into things properly, it seems like you're half-assing it. I understand the irony being that we're both voting the same person right now, but is there no one else in the player list that you find scummier based on the here and now?

My point being...if someone does something you find questionable...that doesn't automatically mean you are scum reading them. Especially after further clarification by that person. And saying I am scum reading someone I did not say that about is a bit misleading btw.

I'm pretty okay with this reasoning. Something can grab your attention for a little while, but that doesn't always have to build into a strong scumread.

@Grey, what about my posts make you think that?

I'm going to wait a while before expanding any more than I already have.

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Not sure how I feel about Ali, let me read again

We're on page 10. I don't get the catchup posts. It'll take you what, 10 minutes to re-read the game? That's assuming you read as slowly as I.

Vote Alisae or I dare you to defend him.

I'm not sure who this was directed toward, but false dilemmas are unproductive.

@Alisae, how are you feeling about players other than Grey?
@Grey, how are you feeling about players other than Alisae?

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{Boring, Fitz, AH}
{Moz, Facy}
{Hawk, Snowman, Mick}
{BBT, Uzi, Empking}
{Grey}

@MOD Update the OP to show replacements

Actually just skimmed Mick's ISO cuz he was one of the nerds I needed to relook at when I got the chance.
His vote was placed in the RVS stage which still concerns me.
I'm okay with running up snowman or Mick.
VOTE: Snowman

That was one heckuva 5 minutes, skipping your 4 highest scum reads...

UNVOTE:

Grey, you and Alisae seem to like to flirt with moon logic. I'm not ruling out scum theater entirely, but until I get a better grip on Alisae, I'm willing to wait. I still don't like how touchy you are about early votes, for the record.

How sure are you about Alisae being scum? Is it just that he was wrong/irrational? Is he annoying the tiddlywinks out of you, or do you genuinely see scum motivation?

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@mod, you forgot about me entirely on the VC

Fixed!

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Join me on King.

Sure, Empking hasn't done anything to leave the bottom half of my nebulous read cloud yet.

VOTE: Empking

Why are we voting him in particular? I saw you mention the jump on Alisae and shade-throwing. It's kind of meh. I suppose those are things that happened, but surely, other people have been scummy too. Who's your second highest read?

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@mod, I hate being so picky, but -Grey- was left off the VC, and our votes seem out of order (I'm not sure if tracking vote order is required, but it can sometimes affect VCA).

Fixed!

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Reads as of reread up to page 8:

{boring,

Alisae

}
{BBT}
{FancyPants, havingfitz, Hawk}
{SnarkySnowman, Antihuman, Empking}
{mozamis, ConManMick}
{LilUziVert}

What the fuddruck happened here? I'm going to need you to walk me through your process going from this:

Grey, I'm flipping Green.
I was also town in that game.

My point is that YOU KNEW BEFORE THIS BULLSHIT PUSH that it was bullshit

And THAT is why Alisae is scum.

to Alisae being your top town read

as of page 8

.

This just isn't cutting it:

Grey, I'm flipping Green.

I believe you. That push is embarrassing.

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I saw something that made me believe that Alisae is town that I had written off on the initial read through.

Seems pretty obvious.

And that something shuffled him from top scum read to top town read that quickly? It must have been one incredible something. I suppose that means we can look to you to help defend Alisae, should he find himself under serious fire any time soon.

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Soo... Is BBT needing a prod? I don't see V/LA by his name.

Also, Alisae, that silliness about him not forming his own opinions isn't a thing. Now that its over and done: it's a pretty normal (so normal, it's NAI) way for a sub-in to get a real-time feel for one or more players, and force out some content. It's not lazy to ask LUV to summarize the game and give reads. Lazy would be sheeping LUV. Like we're doing. (Though, I'd like to believe I have my own secret-agent-girl reasons)

The awkward, WIFOMy entrance with CMM and the WIFOMy way he approached LUV were far more concerning.

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Actually it makes perfect sense to me. You also saying that he shouldn't have his own opinions when we're only like what, 7 pages in or something also says a lot to me.

More silliness. I never said he shouldn't have his own opinions. I said people ask other people's opinions upon sub-in for investigative purposes. Of course we all have our own opinions, even when we pretend we don't.

And no. In fact, I've yet to find any confident townread at this point. It's kind of a problem.

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Sorry, I responded before reading all the new posts.

Cheese and crackers, Alisae, what in the world makes you think productive to start that line of talk this early in the game? I'm having a hard time processing the motivation here. It's either too-scummy-to-be-scum, or you're trying to throw yourself away as an easy bus.

Please, if you're town, hunt

scum

.

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*think it's productive

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It took you long enough.

And no. In fact, I've yet to find any confident townread at this point. It's kind of a problem.

If that's true,

Lazy would be sheeping LUV. Like we're doing.

That makes no sense.

Why would you actively sheep someone that you aren't confident is town?

You have what I said at the time of my sheep vote (something like, sure Empking isn't great, with the follow up for second read), and I wanted to see what would happen. Two more sheep votes and a stall with almost no one addressing it (except Empking). I'm still not sure what to do with this information, but it's got to mean something.

I've never played with Alisae. My first instinct was that his entrance was a clever way to expose some knee-jerk cc from a derpy player with a Mason roll while pretending to be early scumhunting. At least that sounds like something I'd do as scum.

This indicates a scumlean on Alisae, but

I don't see what was scummy about Grey before, but that reaction was interesting.

VOTE: -Grey-

15 posts later, this happened.

Tell me, are you entertaining the notion of scum theater here, or do you think Ali is town here?

I'm pretty sure I explained my vote on you in detail.

If Alisae's opening behavior is normal, it suggests that he likes to actively scumhunt.

What did Alisae post to make you abandon your theory from post 65?

I believe I was also clear in backing off of Alisae on Hawk's word that this was normal town behavior for Alisae. I didn't dig for myself and made it clear that I didn't. Hawk stuck his neck out, and I think that might be significant later.

I'm not entirely sure what to make of either of you, which I've also said.

@LUV, the last time I played with you, your reads won the game for us. I'm interested in your ongoing opinion of the gamestate. (by the way, I know you're V/LA now, but you have a habit of "forgetting" you're in games. Please don't forget about us.)

This looks to me like you are talking to a townread.

Talk to me about the progression of your read on LUV.

I'm seeing something new from LUV, and I don't know yet whether I trust it. When we were scum together, he was obvious scum. So was I. He made summary posts, and followed moon logic. I've seen him play vig where he hung back, and killed the scum for us. Now, he's acting really towny. He's making pushes, he's confident, he's arguing, and he's participating. I want to say "LUV is def. town", but I also know he's clever. Cleverer than he seems to get credit for. He's been reading games, and it's possible that he's scum with a great learning curve. It's a meta WIFOM that I want to ignore, but can't entirely.

@Toffee, I don't like summary posts from people who aren't sub-ins. It creates an illusion of participation, and it's pretty close to solidifying as a scumtell for me. So is an immediate "yup, you're town" when you voice concern about that player. It seems aimed to appease.

You sure lobbed some softballs at me after my reread and flipped opinion of Alisae, if this is true.

Why? You don't strike me as the type to handle scumspects with kid gloves, so your behavior isn't matching up with this post.

You're right. When I'm confident, I push harder. In the meantime, I'm poking and prodding where the wind takes me. I think I'm near a breakthrough on a proper hard scumread, so give me a little more time. That quote you quoted was lobbed at FancyPants, by the way.

I saw something that made me believe that Alisae is town that I had written off on the initial read through.

Seems pretty obvious.

And that something shuffled him from top scum read to top town read that quickly? It must have been one incredible something. I suppose that means

we can look to you to help defend Alisae

, should he find himself under serious fire any time soon.

After all the questioning you've done of Alisae, the bolded doesn't fit.

I'm not sure what's not to understand. I want to lock you into your statement.

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I'm pretty sure I explained my vote on you in detail.

That's an evasion. I was addressing your behavior in regards to Alisae.

That's baseless shade. I will expand so you can understand better.

I voted you for your reaction, which was independent of my read on Alisae and my opinion of his reasoning. I voted you because you seemed jumpy. You had no reason to be jumpy as town.

I don't have a solid read on Alisae, and I didn't then either. By all accounts, he's acted incredibly scummy, but why would scum be so painfully obvious? His reasoning has been simultaneously stiff and moony, which tells me it's just him (regardless of alignment). So clumsy scum or derpy town? You tell me.

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I'm seeing something new from LUV, and I don't know yet whether I trust it. When we were scum together, he was obvious scum. So was I. He made summary posts, and followed moon logic. I've seen him play vig where he hung back, and killed the scum for us. Now, he's acting really towny. He's making pushes, he's confident, he's arguing, and he's participating. I want to say "LUV is def. town", but I also know he's clever. Cleverer than he seems to get credit for. He's been reading games,

and it's possible that he's scum with a great learning curve

. It's a meta WIFOM that I want to ignore, but can't entirely.

So, he's obvious as scum, but he's also "cleverer than he gets credit for".

Yeah. That's not contradictory

at all

.

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What are people thinking about BlueBloodedToffee?

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What are people thinking about BlueBloodedToffee?

Possible scum. He spent a lot of time saying a lot of meaningless things in long form, imo to seem like he was contributing a lot. tbh I think he's smarter than a lot of the points he made though.

Can you expand on that a bit? I'm seeing some "town read me" fluff, and I can't follow his jumps, but I get the impression that he would be a capable town player. I don't see helpful reason for it.

p-edit: mozamis, why did he look town to you?

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By all accounts, he's acted incredibly scummy, but why would scum be so painfully obvious? His reasoning has been simultaneously stiff and moony, which tells me it's just him (regardless of alignment). So clumsy scum or derpy town? You tell me.

He always strikes me as scum, especially so on d1.

It makes no sense, though, that you'd be thinking he was Scum AND voting on the same wagon he was.

Cool beans. I'm glad we've cleared that up.

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bit of a vague memory now, but he seemed questioning and engaged in the game.

Can you follow up after you've caught up to the present?

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That quote you quoted was lobbed at FancyPants, by the way.

Are you suggesting that your treatment of non-replacement catch-ups depends on the person rereading the game? Because that's not the way your post originally read.

I'm not sure what you're saying I'm saying.

I was saying that I've never seen town summarize a game they're already in unless prompted by request. I've definitely seen scum do it, though. From a scum buddy, I've had it explained that it makes you look like you're trying to solve the game.

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@snarkysnowman, if you were to place a vote at some point, would it be on BBT, or is someone else worse to you?

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Can we just lynch King already?

No. I am sick of these rushed lynches, they ALWAYS end up in a mislynch. Why are you in such a rush anyway?
Maybe his vote on Ali was opportunistic. But I want to hear more from him before we just quick lynch him.

You've actually got a point. the "can we lynch this already?" line is something lazy town and scum use a lot to look like they're pushing. Right or wrong, pushes give town-cred, right?

So what do you think are the chances that LUV and Emp are TvT, SvS, or either combo of SvT given the sheep and stall of his wagon?

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That quote you quoted was lobbed at FancyPants, by the way.

Are you suggesting that your treatment of non-replacement catch-ups depends on the person rereading the game? Because that's not the way your post originally read.

I'm not sure what you're saying I'm saying.

I was saying that I've never seen town summarize a game they're already in unless prompted by request. I've definitely seen scum do it, though. From a scum buddy, I've had it explained that it makes you look like you're trying to solve the game.

So, why does it make any difference who you were directing that comment to, then?

I guess it doesn't. I had him in mind when I said it, so in my head, it was directed at him. It's curious that you took it to heart as being about you *queue Carly Simon*.

So is this a tunnel? I feel like you're not asking really productive questions. I mean, sure, we're interacting, but it just seems like you're asking the wrong questions for someone trying to get a read. It's more like you're trying to find chinks in my armor. As if I'm some huge townread that you need to knock down a little.

You never chimed in about BBT, by the way.

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@Empking, I hope I answered your question largely by proxy. I didn't have any town vibes from you, and I wanted to see what would happen if I sheeped. It clearly made other people feel comfortable sheeping, and then the wagon stalled. I guess no one else finds you that scummy (or you're scum).

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I guess it doesn't. I had him in mind when I said it, so in my head, it was directed at him. It's curious that you took it to heart as being about you *queue Carly Simon*.

That's a misrepresentation of my posts. I never "took it to heart as being about" me. I was asking why you had behavior that is inconsistent with your stated belief.

A question you've never really answered, btw.

Okay, You're driving at something, and I'm clearly missing what it is, because I feel like I've answered in so much detail that it's practically derailed the game. Please rephrase your question. You don't have to quote if you can't, being that you're phone-posting, but express your question clearly. Specifically, I need you to define the "behavior" and the "stated belief" for me.

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Okay, Grey, I think I finally understand your question. You want to know why I've been so easy on you when I've clearly noticed issues with your play, and have clearly scumread you at some points. Because I'm getting a feel for you. I've also been doing a lot of fishing for things I can use as anchors later.

I've not hard pushed anyone yet, and I haven't seen anyone I've been really ready to lynch. You included. There's no inconsistency between my stated beliefs and my behaviors when you consider that I'm still investigating. I never said, "come on everyone, I've caught scum here, let's light this mo'fo' up like it's Walmart". I've just bumbled along.

For example, I pointed out that your activity at the moment was more likely to be scum-motivated than Snarky's absence. I was looking to see what kind of response I'd get from the player voting Snarky for that reason. I was ignored. That's data. I'm throwing things out there, and trying to produce/gather as much info as I can, so I/we can use it to pin down scum. Committing you to either discuss or stick to your read on Alisae is far more important in the long run than harassing you in the moment. Especially when I'm still working to solidify reads. Honestly, if it wasn't for the benefit of voting for reactions, I'd not have placed a vote yet.

My very first game of mafia, this point was driven home for me: "behavior isn't alignment indicative, only motivation". While that infuriated me at the time, being stuck as scum my very first game, it's incredibly useful to remember while scum hunting.

So you next question might be, "where's the follow up, then?" To which I've already replied in a previous post, "give me time."

p-edit: Snarky, I've entertained the thought.

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@ boring - check out BBT's p188

Notice the way he doesnt sheep Hawk for town reading Fitz - to me, he gives the impression of someone who is thinking for himself, making his own judgements. Scum i think would be much more inclined just to sheep here i think.

Maybe, but I feel like that's a bit of a stretch, if you're defending BBT as town.

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It's just the way I speak when I'm being a touch condescending, I suppose. Like "are we feeling well?" and "we're going to need you to sit down, now, sweetie." I think it's pretty normal for old ladies like me.

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It's just the way I speak when I'm being a touch condescending, I suppose. Like "are we feeling well?" and "we're going to need you to sit down, now, sweetie." I think it's pretty normal for old ladies like me.

Maybe

, except... why would you look to me to help defend someone you've been questioning?

Why do you assume that I would defend someone simply because I townread them? What gives you the basis for that belief?

This is getting tedious. I've reviewed this one for you twice already.

I'm not sure what's not to understand. I want to lock you into your statement.

Committing you to either discuss or stick to your read on Alisae is far more important in the long run than harassing you in the moment. Especially when I'm still working to solidify reads.

I don't care about Alisae in particular. I don't care about your reads in particular. I don't care how exactly you handle your townreads being under pressure. I cared that you flipped script and wouldn't explain it. I cared that you were willing to defend it. I figured that if you decided to flip script again, you're going to owe us an explanation for this last flip as a part of your back-tracking process. I wanted to lay the foundation for that and then move on with the game until/if the time comes that I'd need to revisit.

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UNVOTE:

I'm going to do some reviewing. It'll take a little while. I'd like more people telling me about BBT, if you guys don't mind.

Snarky and Fitz, can you talk to me about Hawk?

FancyPants, your expanded explanation of my suspicions isn't going to come unless I'm ready to make a real push on you. I haven't decided if/when that's going to happen. There are a lot of shady characters in this game. In the meantime, some scumhunting would be awesome.

LUV, do you have three people you absolutely won't lynch today?

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ConManMick, can you give me your reads thus far? I don't need anything elaborate.

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Alisae, stop talking about masons altogether. Please and thank you.

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I think I could lynch Hawk today. In answer to Fitz's question, I wasn't voting yet because I wanted some more activity from missing players, and I wanted to narrow down my scum pool a little further before voting again. The Hawk vote has me feeling a little better about BBT (I admit, it could just be because he's saying some of what I was thinking).

Hawk is just being lurk-scum, and therefore less of a threat than an active scum. However, I think any scum lynch is a good one.

VOTE: Hawk

My reads ATM (subject to reshuffling, as I have 5 iso's left):
{Snarky}
{havingfitz, -Grey-, LUV, Alisae}
{ConMan, BBToffee, Mozamis }
{FancyPants, Antihuman}
{Empking, Hawk}

I know I'm going to get crap for putting Snarky as my strongest town read. So here goes: effort has nothing to do with alignment. If he was scum, his sparse posts would be different. He's not the lowest contributor in this thread, despite being the lowest poster (I haven't bothered to check if he is, in fact the lowest poster, I'm just assuming at this point).

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[/youtube]

Hawk is just being lurk-scum, and therefore less of a threat than an active scum.

Why can't he be lurk-town?

Because he's being lurkscum, silly!
His contributions have added up to nothing, and his timing has been suspect.

Are you town-reading Hawk? If so, please let me know what I'm missing. If not, why are you soft-defending him? Do you still think Moz is the best lynch?

If he was scum, his sparse posts would be different.

How different?

Snarky has given us non-sheep reads. For example, BBT isn't exactly a heavy favorite for today's lynch. He feels confident enough to pop in, say he thinks BBT is scum, and then turn his back. It's a very bold move for scum. If he was scum, he'd more more likely to sheep and agree with the majority.

He's not the lowest contributor in this thread, despite being the lowest poster

If effort's not indicative of alignment, how come you townread SS on the account of him not contributing the least?

Quality. Contributed more quality, despite is apparent lack of effort. He's not posting walls and pestering people about details, but he's done enough to look town to me.

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Hawk, are you pretty sure BBT is scum? Are you planning to vote him?

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{Snarky}

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I'm convinced BBT v Hawk is TvS. Can't figure out who the scum is in this situation.
So I'ma just sheep this
VOTE: Hawk

Do I even want to know your reasoning for picking a side without knowing which one you think is right? You're an enigma in a puzzle in a chocolatey shell of confusion.

[boring]

I might be willing to sheep him closer to the deadline thanks to my natural modesty and humbleness.

A tangent, I realize, but is this meant to be facetious?

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UNVOTE:
I really thought Hawk was scum. I'm not sure now.

VOTE: Empking

One of these two fellas is bound to be scum.

[boring]

Either we have some very bold scum in this game, or Hawk isn't scum.

[boring]

I'm sorry, BBT. If I turn out to be wrong about any major points leading to my conclusion, I'll explain the whole thing later. Until then, we can call it "gut".

Empking is still scummy for basically the same reasons as Hawk, except Empking's defense wasn't as good. A wagon stalling from apparent apathy suggests that there are people resisting it, who are unwilling to voice their resistance. That's scummier than open, active resistance.

[boring]

I detect a tad bit of buddying from Anti to boring here with the comments relating to SS.

it's an interesting thought. However, I think if Anti were trying to buddy me, he wouldn't borderline misrep me at every interaction (I say borderline because I'm leaning toward it being genuine miscommunication, as in, we just function on different wavelengths).


P-edit: Fitz, Can you explain why I'm in your highest suspect list? This is the first I've heard from you having anything at all to do with me, iirc. If you can't get Hawk or Alisae today, would you vote for me?

Pp-edit: BBT, I might be able to do Moz. The look of the game would have to change for me to vote Anti now. Why not Empking?

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It's a little awkward, I'll grant. However, I might not be such a strong player after all. I'd like to understand Fitz's perspective.


Anyway, I get that Alisae looks scummy. Except, he doesn't

just

look scummy. He's so incredibly out-there scummy with some of the things he says, that I'm finding it increasingly difficult to believe he could actually be scum. He's too open and genuine with it.

Unless I have reason to believe that he's a lot more cunning than I'm giving him credit for, I can't lynch him as scum. Not without some kind of evidence. Maybe if this game was much larger, I'd support a policy lynch, but we can't afford it here.

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VOTE: BBT

That's L-2, I believe.

I think we can count Snarky in as an honorary vote on BBT too, if/when he comes back.

I'm pretty uncomfortable with the manner in which BBT left Hawk. If he had picked anyone but Moz, I might have struggled with it. But he picked Moz. (Please don't confuse this for a lean toward or against Moz). Moz is the person most people voting BBT have recently expressed a willingness (and readiness) to lynch. It brings the image to mind of a dog exposing his belly rather than baring his teeth. I just don't like it.

Fitz, your posts on Hawk seemed relatively fair, but I made my conclusion after finishing ISOs and reading his defense.

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Also, I try not to be picky (because in the end of the day, it doesn't matter), but seeing myself described as "he" is a little confusing for me. I start reading sentences and have to backtrack, thinking someone has switched subjects without me realizing.

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@BBT how we should interpret your wagon remains to be seen. There are a lot of players/slots that haven't chimed in yet.

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BBT, you're not hammered. If you were paying attention, you'd know that. Instead of trying to support town in what I can only assume would be a long twilight, you basically said "so long, suckers". It's a pretty anti-town display.

You're at L-1, and the floor is yours.

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-Grey-, what was town about his reaction?

For my part, I saw it as scummy. I'll explain: he claimed VT in a game with masons. VT are expendable. If he had an eye for the town win condition, he'd be trying to make his flip as informative as possible. On the other hand, as scum, he'd have no reason to pretend to cooperate with us. He'd not out himself, of course, because that would give us time to talk post-confirmation. His reaction was in support of the scum win-condition, not the town one. That suggests scum-motivation.

P-edit: ffs, moz.

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There's never an excuse for policy lynches in a 13 player game.

I think BBT is scum. The only alternative is that he cares more about his own slot's survival than that of his team.

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Double rainbows are fun.

Posting pics of your surroundings isn't so safe, but you whippersnappers are all up on FaceBook and whatnot anyway, so I imagine that privacy isn't a top priority.

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What's snapface?

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What's snapface?

Clearly you're not from New England

I try to keep a healthy distance from Boston drivers... O_o

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LUV, what are your reads?

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Custom titles are awesome. Did you get to pick it? What are your reads?

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{Grey, Snarky, Hawk, Anti}
{LUV, ConMan, Fitz, Alisae}
{Empking, Fancy, BBT, Moz}


We have a backup mod, right? Should we just try to contact him?

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Is there a backup backup?

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I'll try our mods first, I guess.

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Soooo.... Did we win?

WHY WAS I THE FIRST NK?!

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I think I have a new town strategy figured out:
Step 1 - determine LUV's alignment
Step 2 - sheep town!LUV

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I dont think we can see the scum topic until the mods unlock it. Someone is bound to show up eventually...