Open 669 - Nightless Vengeful Mayhem [Game Over]

[lucca261]

Hi guys.

VOTE: Friend_Computer

[lucca261]

Reading and posting right now. Let's go.

[lucca261]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is my first game where mafia has daytalk, so this is going to be interesting.

UNVOTE:

Already don't like this. It's scummy. Revan just says: hey, look at me, posting facts about this game and contribuiting nothing. other people did this, but his pinged me the wrong way.

[lucca261]

...VOTE: Doomfeathers

On a page 2 basis my vote was going to go to either wg or Doom.

Doom got my vote for 14. It’s a suspect post coming on the heels of 9. They are trying to sell two different points of view in too short a time period.

9 says “I am on the ball and am paying attention to the rules” specifically be related to votes being symbolic at that point.

14 on the other hand is peddling both “I’m a newb and don’t get the mechanics” and “I’m not Mafia guys”, the second of which Ultimate picked up on. I’ve seen newer players drop the “I don’t understand the set-up so I’m Town” tell before in other Open set-ups like Jungle Republic so I probably would have voted on that basis alone for early game.

But Doom has enough games on site to understand how the Mafia are going to get the kills they need – mislynches. Basis Mafia101. So the dueling subtext shown of his posts strike me as someone uncomfortable with the early game and looking for footing to get comfortable. The "This is OMGUS" joke is another element I think shows him working to get footing.

Wg would have gotten my vote for 21 but Doom was a stronger vote for this early.

--

I've played nightless before, scum wins only if the town becomes apathetic. Don't spam but don't disappear or lurk either.

Actually Scum wins when they are able to earn Town reads in Nightless games since there is no pressure (or in this case significantly lower pressure due to the 2 Daykills) to have to justify why they are so Town read and still alive. With posts like this which on the surface look Pro-Town but mainly empty of actual helpful content.

--

Meh. Don't like this. You have a point about scum trying to posts that on the surface look Pro-Town but have no helpful content.

I feel like this post is just like this:

It's just you overly analysing things to try and look town, look that you are scumhunting. You can find scum that early. But posting this big explanations of why this is scum and why this is town so early makes me think you are just trying to look like the strong analytic town member, instead of being it.

Also don't like you saying that Doom is a stronger vote than Wguerts right now. It feels like you're going at the weaker targets.

I'm a little confused about the mechanics. How do the Mafia kill more than two people with no night phase and only two daykills?

Not knowing the rules didn't affect my PM, and getting a sum role wouldn't have explained them to me. This doesn't count as (real or faked) evidence of townishness. Sorry. (Maybe I should have asked somebody about gameplay first, but I figured this was a good place to find out.)

The reason I'm confused is that, without a nightkill, a game ending with one scum and one townie left alive would never end because lynching is the only means of death at that point (assuming scum have used both their kills). How is this situation resolved?

Everything that you post counts as evidence of townishness or scumness, no matter how weak it is.

Not particularly Magna. Not at this time anyway. It's already been pointed out and noted. I neither like nor dislike what Doom said and would rather see other peoples reactions and reasoning before anything else because to me it just reads rather Null... I don't feel like reading into it too much because you get into a WIFOM argument about why he would say this.

No need to delve that deeply into a person's statement so early. Honestly the heavy evaluation of P1 by you makes me actually think you're trying too hard if you want to know honestly. But I've never played nightless so it may just be the setup changing the pace of the game.

Isn't delving into people's statements what gets the ball rolling? Pressure early on is good. Magna's post isn't town or scum I'd say right now, as town have just as much incentive to try and create content as scum do. If anything, scum may let the game go it's own way for a while and not intervene as to avoid attention and let the town go on a bit of a wild-goose chase. This is so in every game, not specifically this setup only.

And scum may be scumread for lurking. It's all perspective. I think Magna post was scummy for trying to create a lot of content where there isn't.

Lynch: Ultimate Despair

@Doomfeathers:

LYNCH.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Are you wanting to lynch me and Ultimate Despair, or are you voting for Ultimate Despair and asking me to join you?

I've played nightless before, scum wins only if the town becomes apathetic. Don't spam but don't disappear or lurk either.

Actually Scum wins when they are able to earn Town reads in Nightless games since there is no pressure (or in this case significantly lower pressure due to the 2 Daykills) to have to justify why they are so Town read and still alive.

Also what you say about winning town reads is true, however it's risky to go for too much town credit early on as the lack of day-kill on them stands out. There's always the element of WiFoM involved though. It also works as a double-edged sword, if the town can form a bloc then they're able to put a lot of pressure on scum as well.

Why are you guys so interested in scum's best play? To me, this looks like a great way to appear townie by refuge in audacity. Also, wgeurts seems to be hinting that we should form a bloc, which makes me suspicious.

VOTE: wgeurts

That said, thanks! I get how the game works now.

VOTE: Hawk

My name isn't misspelled.

OMGUS look at this scum right here!!

That asside is it a reference to someone is the old Extended universe? I like Star Wars but never really got into the books.

This is completely irrelevant to the game. It reads to me as if you're trying to pick an argument with someone to waste game time by purposely misspelling words in an argument about spelling and asking purposeless questions that could be answered with five seconds on Google. Why are you acting as if it's still RVS?

FOS Hawk

So you're voting Wguerts, then fosing Hawk, both for weird and made-up reasons on the same post. That makes me feel you're trying to throw shit at the wall and see what sticks. Don't like this. I feel that's what newbie scum would do on this situation, without a night kill.

To Doomfeathers, I was making a joke; I knew I couldn't vote, so I did that.

And I was answering your question.

Vote: Doomfeathers

For being confusing.

Where he was being confusing? Being purposely vague is not townplay.

Well, to be honest, we are kinda still in RVS...

To loosely quote Homer Simpson ...

"Friend Computer RVS is make believe like elves, gremlins and eskimos"

Every post is a part of the game. Just because it is early it doesn't mean you are exempt from being assessed in what you post. In your case it was specifically a poorly justified hop onto the solidly leading wagon on Doom.

Thus you get my vote for it.

Problem?

Like this more from Magna. Feels like he is actually trying to process stuff, instead of over analysing things to appear town.

[lucca261]

Magma how much experience to you have with mafia?

Why is this question relevant for you? Why did you ask this?

Magna, care to explain what you dislike about my post? I'm leaning town on you right now. My reads list goes from most town on top to most scum at the bottom. As off now all reads are weak, and will likely change.

{wgeurts}
{magna, UD}
{Hawk}
{Doom, FC}

Hawk's explanation is feasible, although I may not agree with the way he approaches things it now makes sense somewhat. Going to have to see some action on his end before putting him as town though. FC's vote is dodgy, reinforced by the fact he is also newish. I would like some explanation first before making a final judgement though.

How do you compare Sesq vote with FC? They did the same thing. What is your current read on both of them?

Also, what did you see by despair that made you put him on the top part of your reads?

Anyway, since I think it's ""officially"" day 1 i'll reconfirm vote on VOTE: doomfeathers

...Why no reasoning behind this revote?...

not quoting it all since it would look like a clusterfuck.

but this is another solid post by Magna. he seems to be consistent, and the overanalysing style seems to be a playstyle thing. like him pointing out Sesq clinging at the wagon, just like Friend did and he pointed it out.

Magma how much experience to you have with mafia?

What are your thoughts on the game?

Woah, hold your horses. I need some time to analyze my brother.

...still waiting...look at that fluff...

Eh, never mind. On second ISO, he doesn't look so scummy. I still disagree with avoiding content and judgments early on, though.

UNVOTE: Hawk

What was your issue with Hawk at the first time? I looked at the posted where you voted him and it's all passive agressive responses, based on nothing.

[lucca261]

VOTE: Sesq

Sesq has posted five times, but has neither generated content nor voted seriously. She seems to be coasting. Friend Computer has done the same.

Revan has done the same. Other players like Super have only posted once. Why you decided to specifically point out Sesq?

I thought about what somebody (I think it was wgeurts) said about your play being NAI, and it made sense, so I don't have good reason to scumread you anymore. Voting for inactive players to produce more content is common practice. Also, you were already voting for me.

Fair enough I suppose.

Also I know that why do you think I put the vote again?

Also why Sesq and not Friendly then? What about Sesq's few inactive posts tickles your fancy more than Friendlys?

Don't like this from Hawk right here. What did you want to gain for the answer? What doom could answer that would impact his alignment?

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is my first game where mafia has daytalk, so this is going to be interesting.

UNVOTE:

Already don't like this. It's scummy. Revan just says: hey, look at me, posting facts about this game and contribuiting nothing. other people did this, but his pinged me the wrong way.

A few others have done this, thoughts?

How scummy would you say it is on aa scale of 1-10?

His post felt unnatural. Speculating about the daytalk mafia. Felt like he was trying to just fill his post, cause he didn't want to just post a vote or something.

Not that scummy. It was the first page, and it's quite difficult to create a serious read from that post. Like a 3 on the scale.

Anyway, since I think it's ""officially"" day 1 i'll reconfirm vote on VOTE: doomfeathers

This worries me a bit.
It could be scum using the non day 1 start as an excuse to jump on the doom wagon.
First vote worthy thing I've seen (yes, Hawk, Doom, Wguerts are all town.)

VOTE SESQ

What is your opinion on Friend doing the same?

Lucca, in what way am I not doing what you say magna is doing? Big analysis trying to look pro-town?

Your first post, calling I think Despair's post scummy was okay. We didn't have a lot to work about, and your post seemed to express that. You knew that we had nothing to work, and was trying to find the tiniest straw that could mean that someone is scum.

Instead of Magna doing that, he found the tiniest straw and speculated on it in a way that seemed like: "Hey, I'm certain that this is scum. Look at me analysing this, trying to scumhunt"

I think that now this is more his playstyle than scummy, but it was something interesting to look after, specially on the second pages.

Ok so Magna, Wgeurts, Hawk, Doom prob town.
Lucca just sloghtly less so, but looks town.
Anyone else could be scum.

So everyone that posted content is town, and the rest of the posters are scum?

[lucca261]

I'm a little confused about the mechanics. How do the Mafia kill more than two people with no night phase and only two daykills?

Hey, everyone. I'm doomfeathers and I'm here to remind you that as a member of the town, I don't know anything about the way scum operates in this setup and therefore need to ask a question to everyone so you all know how ignorant of the mafia inner mechanisms I am.

Scum ping for the LAMIST.

- Junko

This is about as town as one can get pre-game Lucca.

Hum. I can see this coming from both alignments, depending on how experienced "Junko" is.

"Hey, I will do something scummy.

wait it's not scummy because I'm myself pointing it out."

[lucca261]

So you're voting Wguerts, then fosing Hawk, both for weird and made-up reasons on the same post. That makes me feel you're trying to throw shit at the wall and see what sticks. Don't like this. I feel that's what newbie scum would do on this situation, without a night kill.

I admit my reasoning was bad, but it wasn't intentional. Are you trying to criticize me for hunting more than one scum at once?

Also @Lucca: My reason was that I thought Hawk was trying to pick an irrelevant argument to clog up the thread. Like I said, it's something I read about in a wiki article.

@Hawk: I don't like to wagon people just because they aren't posting much unless they continue not to post content after receiving one vote. A lynch isn't the intention. Besides, this way we get two birds with two stones.

I think Lucca townleans. His posts don't seem to have scum motivation or give me bad gut feelings.

Hawk, call me yoghurt, gogurt, or TheLegend27

Please, not that ad.

I'm critcising you for voting wguerts, and on the same post, fosing Hawk.

The way you posted it seemed like you were more interested on voting Hawk than Wguerts, but voted Wguerts for some unknown reason.

[lucca261]

I have been misspelling wgeurts since the start. Definitely a difficult username.

Funny how I was so happy I was on page 4, but then there's a page 5.

Sorry for the fluff, needed a breather. Later, will post my initial reads.

For now:

VOTE: Revan

Would like to see more content.

[lucca261]

Lucca my first post on Us was fundementally flawed.

Not saying that it's a good argument, or that he did something scummy or no.

I'm saying that your thought process when making this post is different than Magna was. Your was more natural for me.

[lucca261]

This is going to be a hard time for lurkers, all you pro-activity guys and all.

I've almost established a framework for this game. These interactions are really, really SOUR.

I was definitely sour. Reading, analysing and making those walls was taking a toll on my will to live.

@Lucca how much do you value transparency in town on a scale from 1-10?

I personally rank it at a solid 7.

Depends on the setup and the situation. I would say a 5. Why do you ask?

[lucca261]

What the fuck. Why kill Hawk?

Reading right now.

[lucca261]

Honestly, too tired to post and analyse right now.

Will post by the morning.

By now, the Hawk kill seems random. There was not anything about his kill that would make anyone townier or scummier. I think that maybe we were going on the right track, and so, they killed Hawk to reset the lynches and try to put paranoia on us.

[lucca261]

Posting right now. Let's go.

[lucca261]

Sesq 130

This post is a mixed post for me. I like some of the reads, and it feels like it's genuine scumhunting on your part. The part I don't like is the overly defensive stuff. Like, calling your wagon imbecilic because there are other players who are doing the same that you were doing and were not voted. It doesn't read like a town reaction to votes. It reads like frustrated scum.

Sesq 132

What has Revan done differently than Friend to justify the null-town and null-scum reads? I feel like they are playing very similarly.

Doom 136

The content presented by Friend was very, well, non-content. It was almost two random phrases with no explanation behind them. Do you feel like it was enough to make you unvote him?

UD 142

My problem with Magna first post is that I don't think the content he was analysing was good enough to make this strong reads behind them. Almost like he was making these big analytic posts just to appear town.

UD 146

again, what did you see on Revan posts that make him town? I see only random sentences, followed by no reads. Is there something I'm not seeing here?

[lucca261]

Friend 153

So this reads are pretty bad. Funny that you mention null-scum reading lurkers, as you are kinda lurking.

But I don't actually think Friend is scum, and I'm kinda concerned that scum is trying to wagon him, trying to exploit him for his playstyle. Don't like this.

Superhans 152

Waiting on that readslist.

Revan 156

Why are you town reading me? I feel like I know what are you doing, but I kinda feel like you are going to get lynched for it.

UD 154

I feel like, because of the hydra you might don't want to answer this, but is your read on Revan meta-based? I don't know how you get to this conclusion without meta.

Superhans 172

Do you scumread me? I don't like how all your posts are about me, and you are not voting or openly scumreading me. This is scummy.

Superhans 173[/b]

The Magna post you are referring to was on the start of page 2. My post was on page 4. There is definitely more things to deeply analyse on page 4 than page 2. This is scummy as well. Taking things out of context to try to put pressure me without even voting.

[lucca261]

Hey guys, I'm V/LA until 18/1. Maybe I'll enter just to check, but will be hard, because of internet issues.

I don't know how I'm supposed to announce, but I think this and PMing the mod will serve.

I will be back.

---

sorry for it, but I'm going to travel and all. sorry for the timing.

[lucca261]

I'm back and reading. Let's go.

[lucca261]

Sesq 206

Was Hawk really in a lot of trouble? I don't think he would be getting lynched today.

UD 210

Why do you think this? With all his explanation only "cleared" one player, me. Doom's content could be easily faked.

UD 211

This post got me thinking.

There is a possibility that experienced scum did a "random" kill on purpose, to implicate the possibility of a newbie scumteam, that would be wrong?

Wgeurts 215

This is a very town post, with detailed explanations of wguerts thought process, and he seems to be townhunting.

This is the only thing that concerns me:

@wgeurts, even with all this detailed reads, it seems that your scumreads are defined by activity. Is this because you prefer to townhunt? I find it slightly concerning.

[lucca261]

Page 10:

Call me crazy, but reading Mozamis vs UD made me think there is a scum between them.

To me, both seemed really weirdly different than they were on other interaction with different players. Like, both of them were very non-confrontational.

@mozamis, what is your current read on UD?
@UD, what is your current read on Mozamis?

Also, I agree with UD when he says that it's was not a very well thought plan. I think it's simple: "Hey, I'm killing someone random to make people go crazy". It's very concerning that for a while once the kill, all the discussion was about it. Reading page 10, I'm starting to think it's a random not-random kill.

Don't like Sesq again making it like Hawk was some crazy scumread who was getting lynched soon. He was a townlean for the majority of people, who only some players suspected. It's scummy by Sesq, but makes me think that Sesq didn't make the kill.

[lucca261]

Page 11:

@sesq, what do you mean when you that you would jump off Friend's wagon when he is L-1? If you're on his wagon, you should think that he is scum. If you are waiting to get off the wagon, it's blatantly a scum move. And you are saying it out loud.

Agree with Revan here. Of course analysing the scum kills is good. Focusing only on the kills and starting to forget about other scummy things would be what scum wants. Revan is looking towny enough for me. He's playing a weird strategy, but I think he's trying to look for scum.

Don't like UD trying to put things on Revan's mouth. I don't know why they're saying that the only conclusion to make is that Revan finds either Friend or Sesq town. But, also, there wouldn't be any scum goal to do this.

Honestly, page 11 is a crapshoot.

@mozamis, what is your current read on Revan?

Don't like Sesq vote on Mozamis. It feels like he was trying to find a reason to jump off Friend's wagon, and he just found it. If either flip scum, I would look at the other very closely.

I like Mozamis posting on this page. He's town.

So, Magna candidates are the same guys that everyone is scumreading. There is definitely basis for it, but I was expecting more from Magna's reentrance.

Page 12

Hey, UD, could you clarify which head thinks that Revan is scummy? It would be easier to read your posts.

Yeah, Revan is town. He is brutally honest, and is not concerned with others view on him.

Sesq is flailing like crazy here. Would definitely be happy with him being lynched today, as of page 12.

[lucca261]

Page 13

@fitz, I had reasons to vote Revan. Now, I think the reasons I had to vote him were playstyle differences. He's town. 300

@sesq, what do you think of Fitz catchup post?

Thank god for that Magna tip.

as for Superhans 301 - 315:

This. is. scum.

He's blatantly misrepping things, lying his ass off, trying to blend in by agreeing with anything and a lot of filler.

How are my posts LAMIST? Can you explain that? By your posting, you seems to think that I made a masterplan in killing Hawk and making people think it was random. You should be voting me. And what would I win by doing that? Hawk was townreading me and I have no pressure.

VOTE: Superhans

Like Magna posting. He's probably town.

Doom is a mixed bag. Sometimes I think he's anxious scum, and some that he is proactive town. Null for me atm.

[/b]Page 14:[/b]

@revan 326, why only one? and what is your basis for saying something like this?

327 what does this even mean?

Good vote by Revan. He looks even more town.

nevermind UD clears it up. @UD, what do you see on Revan posts that are scum?

Sesq is trying to look as scummy as possible to make people think she's not scum? It's not working.

[lucca261]

Page 15:

@UD 351, can you tell me aswell what you are seeing? I don't like your interactions with Sesq.

Mozamis is looking townier and townier. His 358 looks to me like frustrated town.

I don't think Mozamis is bussing Sesq. I could see UD doing it.

362, hey, Sesq, can you explain your read on Superhans?

Look at Superhans posts. This is scum. His push on Revan is weird. And probably he's trying to setup me as tomorrow's lynch.

Yes, Magna is town. He could be scum hiding with highly active posts? Yes. But for now, I'm happier with lynching between {sesq, UD and Super}

Page 16:

375 OK, Friend, you managed to skate under the radar and is not the lynch for today. Can you contribute?

@doom, who is your day 2 lynch? And why the lining up lynches?

oh, it's sesq. ok.

wait, Sesq, did you really just say you were trying to make people vote Friend just to save yourself? are you trying to get lynched?

the thing that makes me pause about Sesq lynch is that there is zero resistance. I think, at least for the first lynch, scum wouldn't try to bus.

yeah, think that Fitz is town. We disagree about some stuff, but he seems to be trying to look for scum. I don't think that Revan is scum, but his reasons for thinking that are the best so far.

don't like that Superhans is trying to softly stop the Sesq lynch.

397, several players did this. you didn't react to death at all. were you concerned that people would scumread you because of your reaction?

sesq is trying now?

[lucca261]

Page 17:

402, look at this post. How do you know that other people reads are genuine? Why aren't you voting me? Half of your posts are about me.

407, don't you think that Magna could be doing the same thing?

Magna is town.

Sesq posting is really weird. One minute, she seems to be defeated. Then, she defends herself crazily. It's inconsistent. On my opinion, it's flailing frustrated scum.

@sesq, and haven't you said that you never thought that FC was scum, and was only waiting to Friend's wagon to go L-1 to get off of it?

yes, Sesq is scum.

@doom, shouldn't you be voting sesq?

@Magna, what do you think of Superhans? I think that Friend is definitely a option, but I'm more interested on Super or Sesq?

doom, stop lining up lynches.

[lucca261]

My quick readslist. Feel free to ask:

TOWN
--- Wgeurts
--- Magna
--- Revan
--- Mozamis
--- Fitz
--- Doom
--- Friend
--- UD
--- Sesq
--- Superhans
SCUM

[lucca261]

didn't even realize there was a page 18. will continue catching up.

[lucca261]

Page 18

:

Oh, I know what you are trying to say. I think it's possible that Sesq and FC are scum buddies and Sesq was actively trying to get lynched to take the pressure off of FC.

I don't know, though, if they would do it. I mean, even if their possible plan works and Sesq was lynched, and revealed as scum. Don't you think FC would just get lynched the next day? I don't think scum would do this. Maybe Sesq and FC would, but I don't know.

[lucca261]

Yeah. I don't know what I was saying. He definitely have resistance. From a lot of players, actually.

@sesq, strange that you had no opinion on Fitz catchup. He had the same reaction I had to Hawk's death. Shouldn't you be scumreading him?

---

answering to magna on another post

[lucca261]

My quick readslist. Feel free to ask:

TOWN
--- Wgeurts
--- Magna
--- Revan
--- Mozamis
--- Fitz
--- Doom
--- Friend
--- UD
--- Sesq
--- Superhans
SCUM

When you have the time can you make an organized case for UD as scum please?

I can't say that I've twigged to it and I think seeing someone lay out in a single place why they think that would be good for me to read and review.

My problem with UD is that their thought progression doesn't seem to be natural. Maybe it's the Hydra, but I don't think so.

I didn't like their scumread-townread-scumread on Revan, specially when they go asking around other people about their scumread on Revan, but themselves don't give their opinion. I think it's scummy, and that he's testing the waters.

Their interaction with Sesq is weird as well, and on all of their interactions seems that UD is preparing for an unvote on him.

Also, a lot of his posts are just playstyle/theory arguments, and there is not a lot of content.

----

For your other post, I guess it makes more sense now. I can see it happening, and I'll probably end the day voting Friend. The point is, I'll reread this now, but I don't think that Sesq was in enough pressure that only him and Friend would be the only options. I think scum could've easily pushed for a mislynch, on this situation.

[lucca261]

My problem with UD is that their thought progression doesn't seem to be natural. Maybe it's the Hydra, but I don't think so.
I didn't like their scumread-townread-scumread on Revan, specially when they go asking around other people about their scumread on Revan, but themselves don't give their opinion. I think it's scummy, and that he's testing the waters.
Their interaction with Sesq is weird as well, and on all of their interactions seems that UD is preparing for an unvote on him.
Also, a lot of his posts are just playstyle/theory arguments, and there is not a lot of content.

Well, we've been somewhat transparently open to lynching either FC or Sesq, so in that sense we've certainly been "preparing" for a potential move. I also have literally no idea what you're talking about when you say

a lot of his posts are just playstyle/theory arguments, and there is not a lot of content

. I don't know if you're confusing "reading the game state and known scum actions" with "theory", or if there's some other entirely different point you're trying to make.
It's also odd that you're talking about our thought process being unnatural without being able to cite specific examples of why you think that to be the case. Since this seems to be a point you care about, please illustrate and explain it.

The "preparing" part means that I get the feel that you actually don't want to lynch Sesq, and is trying desperately to get on other wagons while staying with the Sesq bus option.

One of the stuff I look when hunting for scum is consistency. Scum has to portray a narrative of why they're town. If for some reason people break their narrative, it's a break on the consistency of the player. For an example, if either Wgeurts or Magna posted a very emotional post on a situation that wouldn't require this type of posting, I would re-read that slot more carefully.

I didn't like your interactions with Mozamis or Sesq. You (sorry if I'm getting the pronoum wrong.) seem like you're a very thoughtful player, who's always asking questions and following up on them. That's why your interaction with Mozamis felt so weird to me. You asked things to him, he didn't answer, and you just let go, like you were not interested anymore. I think I explained my problem with your interactions with Sesq up on this post.

Truthfully, my read on you depends more on the Sesq flip. It's too early to do this? Maybe. But if Sesq is scum, I think you're a possible partner for him. If he's town, you are probable null to me, since your interactions with him, my biggest issue with you, become null as well.

The game content stuff is that, for a player with a lot of posts like you, a lot of your posts consists only on day-kill analysis and theory questions. I think a scummy player could use that to escape giving meaninful thoughts. Not your case. I was putting that on the "case" as something to analyse further on other time.

[lucca261]

Am I the only one getting the too scummy to be scum vibe from FC?

I think he's faking it.

[lucca261]

I'm here and posting. Actually didn't realize that D2 started. I'm reading.

[lucca261]

quick catchup:

- don't think scum would do this whole big theory and put themselves on the map to lynch Friend and Sesq. I mean, it wasn't needed. Friend and Sesq were both easy targets. The lynch and revenge kill make me think Magna is townier, actually. If he went for the whole theory stuff, it would be a very unnatural play.
- thought I would instant vote Superhans on this day, but I actually liked his content on this page. still scum, but now I'm not 100%.
- doom, is your scumread only based on Magna's theory or there is other stuff about his play that you think is scummy?
- fitz post is weird. he just say: "hey, there wasn't any scum on the wagon, let's move on", which would be scummy. but again, I don't think scum would say something like it? I feel like probably there is at least one scum on Friend's wagon. I mean, it's was such an easy wagon to hop in.

---

VOTE: Ultimate_Despair

Pretty sure this is scum. Especially after seeing this flips. Initially I thought that a Sesq Town flip would at least put UD on a null spot for me. But looking at the last page, I have the feel that UD knew that both Friend and Sesq would flip town. I mean, they were clearly preparing and leaving their options open to be able to vote anyone on D2, even if they "thought" that Sesq and Friend were scum. Look at this, on the last page alone:

They say that Mozamis is a scumlean for him. They say that Superhans is scummy. He votes for Friend. They says that anyone distracting people from the Sesq wagon is scummy. I believe they think that Revan is scummy too.

That alone are five scumreads. Potentially more when they are talking about the wagon.

This, together with the fact that UD haven't responded to my case on them, especially when they are such an active player, makes me think that UD is scum.

[lucca261]

why?

[lucca261]

Reading. Will catchup now.

[lucca261]

Why do you think it's scum-indicative to have a bunch of scumreads?

What part of your case in particular did you think we weren't responding to? I don't think we'd responded to 476 but had responded to earlier items. wrt 476 in partiuclar, I'm a bit surprised that you had at that point stated that associations made us scum if sesq was scum (due to us "wanting off the wagon"), but now that sesq flipped town, we're still scum for... reasons? Like you now say you felt like we knew that FC/Sesq were both flipping town, but don't support that beyond "UD has a bunch of scumreads", which is pretty much a non sequitur to the theory that somehow we knew FC/Sesq were flipping town.

I guess I'd like a clearer theory from you about what exactly your'e seeing from us that makes us scummy at this point, because I'm having trouble following your thought process.

Have to respond to this:

Depends on the situation. Having 5 scumreads alone wouldn't be suspicious. Having 5 scumreads before hammering a town player is leaving your options open for the next day.

I did a post explaining my continued scumread on you. Disregarding them for "reasons" is scummy.

I explained it on 476 and on my vote post. I thought you guys were a possible partner for Sesq. Reading the catchup/hammer posts, I started to think you were scummy regardless of the flip. Your attitudde disregarding my posts only make it stronger.

[lucca261]

Page 22

:

528: @mozamis, can you explain your vote-unvote of Fitz? Here you say that Fitz ISO is quite strong, but regardless of it you were voting for him. And your read of UD from possible scum for null-town is based only on the "not-blending in" post? I don't like this reads. This is going for the weak players.

534: From this post, starting to think that Revan/Superhans theory is possible. On D1 I townread Revan, but his attitude can be faked. And I don't like Superhans saying: "Hey, don't vote me, vote Revan". I still think it's unlikely, but Revan/Hans is possible.

537: Not sure I buy this. Did you really think that scum would vote Magna right away? What is your read on magna, @doom?

544: Yeah, Magna is town. This is a well-thought post who shows good effort and a willingness on changing reads, which I'm not sure would do. I can safely say I'm not voting Magna this game.

548: Do you have some thoughts to share with us about Hawk, @Fitz? also, can you do a readslist? who do you want lynched today? is it Mozamis? Hans? Revan? I don't think I know where your head is, and that is concerning for me.

Page 23

:

550: so you are saying you townread Doom for stuff that happened before post 100? do your reads do not evolve, like, at all?

556: why would scum risk a quick lynch? if both Revan/Hans are town, scum is on a pretty good position to win. Why risk all that for a quick lynch on a player who is probably getting lynched anyway? if anything, you are trying a quick lynch. hmm.

557: can you explain the breadcrumb? I don't get it. I don't get why you had the need to breadcrumb also. The only reason for you to breadcrumb this is if you are concerned about how people view you.

568: what?

573: this post is good. Fitz is probably town. he is analysing stuff and trying progress his reads. I just need the readlist first.

[lucca261]

Ot

Sorry if I'm coming across as a bit of a cunt, I'm coming off of a caffeine addiction so kinda overly emotional.

Oh i feel for you! I gave up caffeine for 3 years, it was weird shit near the beginning!
Got to say going back on it was gthe biggest buzz ever lol

And thanks for the ATe

Other peoples thoughts on Hans?
And Magna i Guess. It's hard not to OMGUS. I'm hoping he is misguided, "super lawyer" town. Think he probably still is.
If he is scum, we are in trouble.

Magna is not scum. He wouldn't play like he's playing if he is scum. If he is, props to him, cause there is no way he's getting lynched.

I still think that Hans is scum. But his posting on D2 has been stronger. This, together with the Sesq and Friend flips that made me question my scumreads, makes me want to go with my gut today. And my gut says UD.

And you pushing him desperately like you are doing makes me think he's town.

[lucca261]

My quick readlist, now caught up:

TOWN
--- Magna
--- Wgeurts
--- Fitz
--- Revan
--- Doom
--- Superhans/Mozamis
--- UD
SCUM

Would vote UD, Superhans or Mozamis today. The similar spot for Hans or Mozamis is because I think one of them is probably scum, but I'm not sure I can see them being scum together.

[lucca261]

I'm here and reading, not V/LA. Sorry for the lack of activity today. Although I find it interesting that several players are inactive right now, and you pointed out me. Catching up.

[lucca261]

Page 25

@mozamis, 614: look at this. what's with the defeatist attitude? you have, like, one vote. are you doing this because sesq did it and he was town? is it on purpose?

@doom, 616: yeah, I like this post. he explains his thoughts clearly and clears every possible doubt on the breadcrumb. doom is solid town.

@hans, 622: don't like hans tone here. feels uncharacteristically (the biggest word I ever wrote on mafiascum) aggressive.

Page 26

@fitz, 628: waiting at that readlist I asked you about.

answering to UD on another post.

@hans, 637: wait. if you're town you should support your case regardless of what it is. you shouldn't be concerned about making your reads OMGUS. you only do that if you are scum.

@mozamis, 641: what did you saw on Revan's posts that you liked?

[lucca261]

so, at this point of D2, Mozamis decide to make a pressure vote on a player who's not getting lynched today and who was not a scumread of him two pages ago.

what changed on my spot that made you think I'm scum?

or is your vote just an empty pressure vote?

[lucca261]

catching up. let's go.

[lucca261]

@UD, 661: That's not what I was saying at all. Each post you do trying to discredit me makes me think you're more scum. That reminds me that I forget to answer you. Preparing the post.

@Magna, 663: but I'm voting UD, like, since the start of the day? I want him lynched today. Look at his posts. Also, can you explain to me your superhans townread?

@Superhans, 672: I think that if you were scum together with Mozamis, you two wouldn't go so hard after each other. Is bussing is this time possible? yes. but the interactions between seemed to be TvS.

@Superhans, 673: "Also I don't like her push on me but don't want to make my read OMGUS so won't elaborate." that's your quote. why wouldn't you want to make your read OMGUS? elaborate.

@doom, 674: yeah, doom is town. his posts have a natural progression between them and his reads seems to evolve naturally.

Page 28

@doom, 675: another really good post by doom. made me rethink Superhans/Revan. I'm warming up to it.

can we get a UD lynch, @moi/@doom?

[lucca261]

...
Depends on the situation. Having 5 scumreads alone wouldn't be suspicious. Having 5 scumreads before hammering a town player is leaving your options open for the next day.

I did a post explaining my continued scumread on you. Disregarding them for "reasons" is scummy.

I explained it on 476 and on my vote post. I thought you guys were a possible partner for Sesq. Reading the catchup/hammer posts, I started to think you were scummy regardless of the flip. Your attitudde disregarding my posts only make it stronger.

Your stated reasons were:
- we'd disregarded your case (which wasn't really true)
- we had a bunch of scum reads (which wasn't really indicative)

So if that was the extent of your case, it was objectively poor, and if there was more to it you hadn't been particularly clear about why. So yes, being dismissive of your case seemed pretty reasonably appropriate

You'd also raised the point about us ignoring mozami's responses in 476, which seems odd given how much we've talked to/about mozami. What in particular did you think we'd missed or dismissed?

Like, overall I look at your push on us and it seems more like a read in search of reasons (especially given the strange continuation of the read when originally it was to some degree dependent on Sesq being scum) than a read that has meaningful substance behind it, and I'd like to see you put in the time to actually substantiate and demonstrate what you claim to be seeing if this is something you really feel strongly about.

-M

Yes. it's true. you disregarded my case several times. you even say this yourself:

So yes, being dismissive of your case seemed pretty reasonably appropriate.

So here we have you lying to defend yourself.

I never said I scumread you for having a bunch of scumreads. I say I scumread you for having a lot of scumreads before hammering while keeping options open for the next day. Like you knew Friend would flip town.

On your sentence here we have you again misrepping my words to defend yourself.

---

On the part about Mozamis, I'm talking about what happened on page 10. You ask Mozamis a bunch of questions WHILE VOTING HIM, and then, when Mozamis don't answer/slides out of the question, you just move on. I found this extremely inconsistent with your other posts.

If you think my push on you is a read on search of reasons, shouldn't you be voting me?

I've been clear that while the scumread was originally dependent on Sesq being scum, it wasn't all of it. I had other concerns with your play. I explained it in several posts.

I had four scumreads on D1. Sesq, you, Superhans and Friend. When two of them die and are proven town, you have to rethink your reads. Looking at your play again, it was scummy if Sesq was town or not.

And your attitude towards my read on you is strange too. It's inconsistent with your earlier posts. It's generally aggressive, and by your posts, you seem to scumread me. But you didn't vote. And it's not like you are voting anybody.

[lucca261]

I'm here and reading.

[lucca261]

@lucca:

1)
disregard: pay no attention to; ignore
(we didn't do this, and I think that's fairly obvious)

dismiss: treat as unworthy of serious consideration.
(I admittedly did this)

Saying that I didn't disregard your case (which I didn't), while also saying that I dismissed your case (which I did) is not a contradiction, much less an actual lie.

2) The substance was that we had a bunch of scumreads. The narrative was that somehow having a bunch of scumreads equated to keeping our options open. The actual fact being discussed was the number of scumreads we had, i.e. that was the actual basis of your suspicion (if there was more to the "you're keeping your options open" bit then you've done a terrible job communicating it). You constructed a scum narrative for our behavior while seemingly choosing to not critically engage with the possibility that having a bunch of scum reads was an honest town process.
The factual basis of your point there, though, was in fact the number of scum reads. Which simply isn't indicative. Slapping scum narrative onto a non-indicative incident does not magically turn it into scummy behavior, regardless of whether or not you think it does. So my saying that you have scum read us in substantial part due to behavior that is not indicative is a completely valid point.

3) If I think your push on us is a push in search of reasons, the question is whether you actually believe it or not. It is entirely possible that you are simply being bad. I don't especially feel like voting someone just for being bad without having a meaningful basis for believing that it's scummy instead of just poor reasoning.

4) The explanation for why I "moved on" from the page 10 stuff should be fairly obvious. Look at 243 and subsequent posts. We moved on to a different topic of conversation, reacting to an action that we knew came from scum.
What exactly were you expecting here? I had good reason to be focused more on FC/Sesq, discussed my reasoning, and I don't recall you or anyone else being upset by the focus on those two back when they were still alive.
I'm also curious why you feel like our treatment of Mozami was different than, say, our treatment of Revan, who I spent some time questioning on page 11 and also "moved on" from. Like, who here that we've interacted with substantially have we treated in a way that is substantially different from how we've treated mozami in a way that stands out? Preferably with quotes/links to demonstrate what you're claiming to see.

-M

1) Read that again. When I say you disregard my case, I say you dismiss it. You paid no attention to it, instead, trying to say that "I was looking for reasons" or "Having a bunch of scumreads is not scummy" when it's clear my case is not based on it.

2) The substance is that you had a bunch of scumreads. The narrative is that this, a non-scummy thing, combined with the game situation at the moment and a prior suspicion I had on your slot made me read your "bunch of scumreads" as scummy. Your point about scum narratives is crazy. I'm don't know who scum is. I don't know what is happening on the game. When I see a scummy thing, I try to make a narrative on my mind: "Why scum would do this?". This is the point of the game. You doing all these rambling to

dismiss

my point is not confusing me. Try harder.

3) This is what I'm saying. Instead of thinking why I thought what you did was scummy, you prefer to hyperdefense yourself and use AtE.

4) You weren't voting Revan. You were voting Mozamis. And then you ask a bunch of questions to him. His answers are either non-existent or inconclusive. What does UD do? Just move on. This is what I think it was scummy. He was being strange too around your spot. I thought it was TvS. I'm not talking about how you moved to Sesq or Friend. I'm talking about how you did not seem concerned in Mozamis answers. You know, the player you were voting at the time.

[lucca261]

reading now. let's go.

[lucca261]

sorry for not being able to get my catchup done last night, I honestly forgot it and today, had no access to the computer until now.

posting now.

[lucca261]

Page 29

(god I am behind)

@magna, 712: I have given other scumreads other than UD. Mozamis and Superhans remain both a scumread of me and I'm willing to lynch them both today, in case we can't get a lynch on UD. I think one of them is a partner of UD. Both make sense, as Superhans and UD haven't made a lot of contact over the game and the Mozamis-UD crossvote seemed out of the blue and suspicious for me. But I don't think that a UD/Mozamis/Hans team is possible. The last scum would be inbetween Fitz/Revan/Wgeurts, with their likeability changing from who the second scum is. Of course, this is considering UD is scum. No matter how sure I am that UD is scum, there is always the possibility that I'm wrong. In that case, I would need to re-evaluate these reads.

@super, 715: as for super latest posts, I'm thinking that Mozamis is scummier than him, these days. I would lynch Mozamis before him. these posts made me feel like Super is a town member who was not taking the game seriously at the start, but now he's trying to participate, to scumhunt, even if his methods are a bit spotty.

@mozamis, 716: fuck yeah. even if is a bus, one more person on the wagon is good.

@super, 723: so you're unvoting Mozamis, then calling him scum at the end of the post? I don't get it. and call me paranoid, but both Hans and Mozamis joining UD wagon make me feel extremely unconfortable.

Page 30

@super, 725: what is your read on wgeurts at the moment, hans?

@mozamis, 730: I weirdly like this outburst.

@lucca, 734: yeah, totally.

responding to fitz catchup on another post, it was getting confusing

[lucca261]

Fitz Catchup - Page 30

@fitz, 737: holy shit.

this post is big, let's go:

first, let's answer to your questions directioned at me:

I was asking you about Hawk because your post seemed to imply that you were thinking that somebody else had benefitted from Hawk dying, but wouldn't tell who. That reminds me, I had completely forgotten that. Did you, Fitz?

@lucca...I lean town on MOI as well...but how can you definitively anoint him town without some shred of doubt? Is MOI a crap scum player who posts completely differently than he does when he is town? tl:dr; confidence is suspect.

of course I have doubts about Magna. the thing is, one of the biggest factors I try to scumhunt with is consistency. things like a player subtitly changing his reads when it benefits him, having leaps of thought with seemingly no explanation behind it, things like that. and my point about magna is that he is creepily consistent. his posts all seem to follow the same thought process, to try to find scum. he pushes everybody, at anytime, without taking things out of context. I would find extremely hard for a scum player to have such a consistent game with the length of Magna content.

but I have some paranoia about him. an experienced player like Magna could look so townie and so proactive while being scum? maybe, but his content is extremely town, and I'm willing to lynch my actual scumreads now. he is solidly town to me. the not getting lynched commentary is because, if Magna is scum, I think it would be extremely hard for someone to lynch him. he is an almost universal townread.

@lucca...If you can't see Hans and moz being scum together then would you vote Doom today? He's 3rd from the bottom of your reads list.

@lucca...WTF? "yeah Doom is town?" smh head. He could be....but how do you know that so confidently? Though in hindsight....675 was a pretty good post. Leaning Doom town seems fair. But no locks please.

my thing about doom is this: I never really had more of a null read on him. he is a strange player to read. his posts look so proactive, so helpful and he seems to be looking for scum. but some content looks faked. I don't like how seemed to line up lynches. and a lot of his proactive content, like commentating on the daykill time, is NAI.

so, almost for all game, he was a line on my readlists. up above doom, this player is null at least. under doom, this player is scum. until he had that weird vote on Magna, with the breadcrumb. this was scummy for me. I didn't buy his explanation that he was trying to get scum. so I moved him down a bit. when he answered my concerns and other players began to do more scummy things, my concerns with Doom were getting smaller, for a point that reading his posts now, I genuinely feel that he's trying to hunt for scum. so now he's my second most sure townread. even at this time, the middle of the breadcrumb stuff, I wouldn't vote him.

some posts of him that I liked are 615, 675 and 676

Annnd Hans unvotes moz. Does a Hans moz combo work?

that wasn't a question for me, but I'll answer nonetheless.

at the start of the day, with the length they were going to lynch each other, I thought that for sure they weren't scum together. but lately, with the strange unvote and sudden townread that both developed about themselves, I'm starting to get paranoid about this. as a song here in Brazil states, I'm 99% thinking that they aren't scum together, but that 1% is vagabundo. (rowdy)

what do you think about this?

---

about the post in general, I confortable now putting fitz at my townpile, at least for now. his post is incredibly consistent, he brings the points that I thought a player reading this pages would bring, and regardless if I agree or disagree with his reads, I think that they are solid, and show that he's trying to process stuff.

[lucca261]

Page 30 (continued)

@doom, 743: but that is not a rule. I've seen games (yeah, I watch games sometimes) where scum assumed the role of a townleader quite easily. I think there was a game that Thor do this very well on a newbie game I was watching. but I like that thought process coming from you.

@superhans, 746: like this from Hans too. this, combined with the sudden vote-unvote situation, make me think that he's just trigger happy with his votes. quite honestly, I like his reasoning on Revan. from his position, I think I would scumread Revan, too.

@revan, 749: please do. paranoia is starting to get me here.

Page 31

@mozamis, 750: and Mozamis already unvotes UD. interesting.

@revan, 752: talk to me. what is your scumread on UD based on?

[lucca261]

my reads:

- TOWN
Magna
Doom
Fitz
Wgeurts
Hans
Revan
Mozamis
UD
- SCUM

[lucca261]

let's go again.

[lucca261]

Page 31

@revan, 764: try to post your thoughts more often, even if you are scum. laying low and keeping your conclusions on your head are a recipe for disaster. or caught scum.

@magna, 766: I think you are overreacting. your point about Revan not being mislynched was good, and it's natural that people would agree. reading again, their votes seem kinda of sheepy, but I think that is an acceptable kind of sheep.

@revan, 767: try to resume for me why you think UD is scum.

not sure I like Hans insane push on Revan, though. he seemed to had forgotten him, and now that Revan has more pressure, he jumped on. but I liked the initial vote, and could it be a playstyle thing?

Page 32

@super, 782: why do you think this? I know that UD has reached this conclusion, but I want to hear it from you.

this page is all full of super vs revan with some magna posts in the middle. I actually find Revan posts on this page townier. he seem frustrated town.

starting to think that Mozamis and Superhans can actually be scum together, due to Magna points and this thing:

@super, 784: hey. you think that revan is scum. you think that mozamis is scum. but not together. so why aren't you worried about being on a wagon together with Mozamis?

@fitz, 791: agree about wgeurts. he was town for D1, but I'm concerned about how he skated D2 without ever stating a read/opinion other than the Doom townread. not saying that he is scum for it, because all people have time issues, but I'm angry that he just passed a day. losing to scum!wgeurts would get me angry.

@revan, 797: this seem awful. why weren't you pushing fitz if he is your third biggest scumread? instead, you are pushing UD since a long time, but he's your fourth? something does not add up

[lucca261]

Idk, 799 looks town to me...

VOTE: UD

why? and shouldn't you be voting fitz?

[lucca261]

where is your promised case on UD? I think it's scummy for you do a case on your fourth biggest scumread too.

shit, Revan, I'm starting to think you're scum.

talk to me.

[lucca261]

try to post your thoughts more often, even if you are scum.

why do you want him to post his thoughts more if he is scum?

he stated that he gets mislynched a lot, both here and on his local forum.

then asked what he would need to do to stop being mislynched.

I responded that a good way to not get lynched, even if he's scum, is to post more thoughts on the game, because that seem to be an issue with his play.

what are you trying to imply, mozamis?

[lucca261]

@ magna and doom: if i get back on UD, will you guys join me?
My worry is that rev is lynch bait. Obviously, I'll get back on rev if we need a lycnh, but i'm surer of ud than i am rev.
I'm woried about Lucca. His last big post had very little substance in it. Where were the reads?
scum UD, Lucca, Rev?Fitz?
Had a glance over Hans early ISo and he's town. Guy could barely stop giving out reads.

@p.edit : it seemed a bit like coaching.

if I would coach him, why I would do this here and not on the mafia thread. there is daytalk.

this actually makes me feel that you are town. felt like a genuine townslip.

[lucca261]

@ ah ok i didnt see the post you were replying too, my bad.
your last big post was still weak though.

I actually agree that my last big post was not that good. I actually wasn't able to develop a lot of reads from these pages. the whole pages seemed to be: superhans wants revan lynched, revan being discontent with his play.

other than revan's reads being very strange I did not see anything that scummy on these pages.

[lucca261]

i forgot to vote

vote ultimate despair

Rev's my compromise choice.

@Lucca so I'm still unclear where your reads are?

I stand by my reads on 757. maybe I would put Revan on the same place of scumminess with you.

- TOWN
Magna
Doom
Fitz
Wgeurts
Hans
Revan/Mozamis
UD
- SCUM

all the reasons are stated on my posts. feel free to ask for any of them, though.

[lucca261]

So I go out and there's a replacement, a lynch and five pages for me to read.

uh.

let's go.

[lucca261]

Page 34

@hans, 833: didn't you do that too?

@UD, 836: ironic.

@UD, 838: do you think he saw that you did it and managed to stay alive, then did it because why not?

so, about that hammer...

I'm willing to believe that Hans accidentally hammered. he had nothing from gain by doing that. it would only attract unwanted attention for him, attention he wouldn't want as scum. He could easily have voted him, knowingly hammered and no one would instalynch him for it. My problem is not if the hammer was accidental or not.

My problem is the change to vote Mozamis when a new player had voted him just before. When Mozamis seemed like the most possible read, Hans was quick to vote him, and, regardless if he knew that he was hammering or no, this is scummy as fuck.

Without Mozamis in the game things get harder. I was thinking that Mozamis was scum, in fact, I wanted to move my vote to his wagon. I liked some UD posts and was starting to consider that I was maybe tunneling him. Now with 7 scum candidates, we have less player to consider. I think that Magna is not scum. Doom is not scum. Fitz is not scum. So I'd like to work with four suspects for now. Nahdia, Revan, UD and Hans. I'd say Nahdia because his vote was non-committal as a vote could be: "Hey, did I read the game or I'm only voting him to sheep Magna? look it's L-1 bye".

now, on D3, I'm interested at rereading to see how the D2 wagons formed. we had significant wagons on UD, Hans, Revan and Mozamis. it's 99% likely we hit scum. the Mozamis wagon was probably manufactured by scum. I will analyse the wagon and try to see who benefitted the most from it.

[lucca261]

Page 35

@doom, 852: why did you quote that three posts? they have zero relation with your statement.

@nahdia, 854: what are your actual reads? you replaced in, townread Magna, scumread Mozamis, AKA the two most popular opinions on the game, put Mozamis in L-1 and...

@superhans, 858: scummy. of course you would regret voting Mozamis if town, you don't need a statement for this. this is LAMIST.

@revan, 864: why the doom scumread? you seemed to townread him last page. what did you see that you started scumreading him? and together with UD?

@doom, 870: I was clearly not threatening you? this post was a statement of my townread on you? and how I'm scum for that Revan's readlist, please?

super, is your scumread on magna and revan together because magna stopped your Revan's lynch? how did I stop scumreading you? you're scum.

Page 36

@superhans, 878: stop with the defeated attitude. It didn't work for Sesq, it won't work for you.

@nahdia, 881: nahdia still didn't give one read on this game. regardless of alignment, that's lazy.

@doom, 887: I think we should do a FOS vote. when people want to vote for someone, you FOS them instead. we could the FOS, and then, when we reach a majority, we vote for that person. in this way, we stop quickhammers.

@UD, 890: can you point to me the two quotes where people said that?

wait. can this L-3 stuff be a scumslip that points that Doom and Hans are scum together? if they were planning on killing someone today, it would be a L-3. the way they were talking about that it seemed like they were almost already assuming it. I think it's plausible.

@fitz, 897: that's one of the strongest posts on the game. I hadn't noticed that about UD and it's very scummy for UD to do it. second time that UD seems to know the flips before they happen. Fitz is town. He's looking for stuff from a town perspective. Not voting Fitz today.

@doom, 898: there's no reason to no lynch, there's no night phase.

[lucca261]

Page 37

some of doom posting today are making me feel conflicted. he's posting a lot, but on some of this posts, he puts zero content. Fitz with one post had more content than all of Doom posts today.

@mozamis, 906: i'll be honest and say that this made me laugh a lot.

@magna, 907: what are you seeing on these three posts?

@doom, 908: and I'm the only one that revan townreads? is this a reaction test?

where did Hans's Revan scumread went? lol. for someone who was so sure that Revan is scum, he's voting MOI now. yeah, hans is scum. I'd say that Revan and Hans is getting more possible with every post that Hans and Revan push each other but start to push other people and forget about each other.

I have completely no reaction to Hans this page. like, no reaction. it's dumb as fuck. i'm mad.

i will do my wagon analysis later, want to post on other games first.

[lucca261]

@UD, 890: can you point to me the two quotes where people said that?

wait. can this L-3 stuff be a scumslip that points that Doom and Hans are scum together? if they were planning on killing someone today, it would be a L-3. the way they were talking about that it seemed like they were almost already assuming it. I think it's plausible.

@fitz, 897: that's one of the strongest posts on the game. I hadn't noticed that about UD and it's very scummy for UD to do it. second time that UD seems to know the flips before they happen. Fitz is town. He's looking for stuff from a town perspective. Not voting Fitz today.

1) people just love asking me to do their work for them it seems.

619 and the end of 871

2) see my rebuttal in my last post. That's not a strong post, it's a dumb post. The scum motivation for me to draw attention to myself my pushing Hans there before the flip is at most wifom, while the town motivation is obvious. "Ooh it seems 'knowing' " is transparently lazy, and the kind of point that should be thrown out wholesale at least nine times out of ten.

3) stop looking for scumslips, start looking for actually scummy behavior. "Scumslips" are bullshit the bulk majority of the time and mainly an excuse fir lazy scumhunting.

-M

again, the tone: "I'm better than you and never make mistakes."

1) so the two people were doom, who already stated he didn't mean that and magna on the middle of D2? okay.

2) it's not a strong post just for the scumslip stuff. it's a strong post because he's looking for scum and his views on posts reminds me of things I was thinking when I was reading them. he is viewing stuff from a town point of view. also, scum make a lot of mistakes. if scum didn't, there would be no way to scumhunt them, and that could be a possible mistake on your part.

3) do you think I'm town?

And MOI...you were the driving force in both mislynches iirc. Certainly moz. Not that I or anyone else on
2. Who are you saying is fence sitting? You or me? As for my comments...I agree it doesn't narrow anything down on anyone. It's not a strong point against anyone...I just don't like it. And the fact more than a few have been doing it makes it even less helpful and more annoying. Off the top of my head I would say Doom is president of the club. I think moz and maybe lucca were pumping you up as town. There might have been a few more that went above and beyond "I think MOI is probably town"....which is where I have been most the the game.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..................calling it a night. I'll re-assess more tomorrow.

which case do you see it? about who is scum trying to pump up town!magna, scum partners with him or clueless town sheeping him?

[lucca261]

@superhans - didn't you vote Magna first, hans? and when people give you shit for it you voted Revan? also, I'm not automatically reading Magna as town. I had a lot of thoughts about his slot at D1, and his play made me think he's town. I don't know what you see about his play.

@magna, 940: that's not true. I pushed Hans and Mozamis a lot. even Sesq. stop being paranoid. UD is scum.

@doom, 942: your play is starting to concern me. first you say: "hey, I'm worried that scum is slipping past me", then you say: "hey, let's just lynch the most common scumreads". these two statements together don't fit.

@magna, 947: this is why Magna is town. hey, considering this, what do you think of my Doom/Hans L-2/L-3 stuff?

@nahdia, 948: if hans is scum, lynch this.

[lucca261]

again, the tone: "I'm better than you and never make mistakes."

1) so the two people were doom, who already stated he didn't mean that and magna on the middle of D2? okay.

2) it's not a strong post just for the scumslip stuff. it's a strong post because he's looking for scum and his views on posts reminds me of things I was thinking when I was reading them. he is viewing stuff from a town point of view. also, scum make a lot of mistakes. if scum didn't, there would be no way to scumhunt them, and that could be a possible mistake on your part.

3) do you think I'm town?

Actually the tone is "stop wasting my time with meaningless bullshit". Probably inherent in that is "I'm better than you", which, for the record, is a fairly obvious and common town tell, unless you think I'm doing it in a way that suggests that I'm just scum gloating (and you DEFINITELY need citations if you want to sell that one). I don't think I ever claimed to never make mistakes (among other things, I've been on two town lynch wagons, so obv this isn't my greatest game ever), but if you want to argue that I'm showing off my ego, sure. Probably am. Now if you think I'm scum, argue why it's scummy instead of villagery.

1) Magna asked me two stupid questions and then voted me apparently because I didn't answer his stupid questions. Doom already acknowledged that it was reasonable to read his question in the way I did. And yes, that's two people. What's your point here?

2) His actual argument is dumb though. Given that his argument is dumb, the question is whether he believes it. Do you believe that he believes it? Why or why not?

3) Not sure. Do you think you've done something strongly indicative this game? You've produced content, which is itself something somewhat positive, but I don't know why you deserve to be a strong read in either direction. If I've missed something important wrt your alignment, feel free to enlighten me.

-M

and you say you're not disregarding stuff I post. I'm curious why you need to proclaim you as town in every single post that you make. it's always: "hey, this thing I did is obv-town", "hey, this thing I did is a town tell'. I'm saying you use this tone to disregard stuff that other people post about you. It's not just on me, it's on Magna as well. every time people accuse you, you start to say that you're better then than, and that you are obvtown.

1) it's just that it's curious you waited the start of D3 to answer magna "stupid" questions. you waited until they were a problem. if Magna/Doom hadn't pushed you about it, you wouldn't answer this.

2) again. the argument is dumb. I think he believes it. I think you're scum. He probably does as well. I'm reading him as town. I think he believes.

3) that is not my point. my point is that, if you're not sure I'm town, you saying: "3) stop looking for scumslips, start looking for actually scummy behavior. "Scumslips" are bullshit the bulk majority of the time and mainly an excuse fir lazy scumhunting." makes no sense. in this you assume I'm town 100%, not even considering I might be doing this for scum reasons. if you were town on this game, you wouldn't be so sure of my alignment.

[lucca261]

FOS: UD

I'm sick of this bullshit. consider this a vote. they're scum.

[lucca261]

and his point about scumslips makes me think that he's scum caught from the wrong reasons, and now is fuckin' angry about it.

[lucca261]

I'm here, guys. reading.

[lucca261]

again, the tone: "I'm better than you and never make mistakes."

1) so the two people were doom, who already stated he didn't mean that and magna on the middle of D2? okay.

2) it's not a strong post just for the scumslip stuff. it's a strong post because he's looking for scum and his views on posts reminds me of things I was thinking when I was reading them. he is viewing stuff from a town point of view. also, scum make a lot of mistakes. if scum didn't, there would be no way to scumhunt them, and that could be a possible mistake on your part.

3) do you think I'm town?

Actually the tone is "stop wasting my time with meaningless bullshit". Probably inherent in that is "I'm better than you", which, for the record, is a fairly obvious and common town tell, unless you think I'm doing it in a way that suggests that I'm just scum gloating (and you DEFINITELY need citations if you want to sell that one). I don't think I ever claimed to never make mistakes (among other things, I've been on two town lynch wagons, so obv this isn't my greatest game ever), but if you want to argue that I'm showing off my ego, sure. Probably am. Now if you think I'm scum, argue why it's scummy instead of villagery.

1) Magna asked me two stupid questions and then voted me apparently because I didn't answer his stupid questions. Doom already acknowledged that it was reasonable to read his question in the way I did. And yes, that's two people. What's your point here?

2) His actual argument is dumb though. Given that his argument is dumb, the question is whether he believes it. Do you believe that he believes it? Why or why not?

3) Not sure. Do you think you've done something strongly indicative this game? You've produced content, which is itself something somewhat positive, but I don't know why you deserve to be a strong read in either direction. If I've missed something important wrt your alignment, feel free to enlighten me.

-M

and you say you're not disregarding stuff I post. I'm curious why you need to proclaim you as town in every single post that you make. it's always: "hey, this thing I did is obv-town", "hey, this thing I did is a town tell'. I'm saying you use this tone to disregard stuff that other people post about you. It's not just on me, it's on Magna as well. every time people accuse you, you start to say that you're better then than, and that you are obvtown.

What EXACTLY am I disregarding here? I note that what you're accusing me of (arrogance) is actually town-indicative, and then ask you to demonstrate why you think it's scum-indicative. You turn it around and act as if I'm proclaiming myself obvtown (when I haven't), and ignore the QUESTION I asked you of why this behavior is scum-indicative (which you know, is ACTUALLY disregarding something the other person is saying).

1) it's just that it's curious you waited the start of D3 to answer magna "stupid" questions. you waited until they were a problem. if Magna/Doom hadn't pushed you about it, you wouldn't answer this.

I answered because there were now two people who (seemingly) wanted me to answer the question, even though it was a dumb busywork question in the first place, and so I just did it. Why do you think this is indicative?

2) again. the argument is dumb. I think he believes it. I think you're scum. He probably does as well. I'm reading him as town. I think he believes.

What about his argument as presented makes you think he believes it? Substantively, all you're doing here is saying "I agree with his argument, therefore I agree that he believes it". That's lazy. Presume I'm town (which obviously you don't want to do). UNDER THAT MODEL, do you think that he believes what he's saying? Why or why not?

3) that is not my point. my point is that, if you're not sure I'm town, you saying: "3) stop looking for scumslips, start looking for actually scummy behavior. "Scumslips" are bullshit the bulk majority of the time and mainly an excuse fir lazy scumhunting." makes no sense. in this you assume I'm town 100%, not even considering I might be doing this for scum reasons. if you were town on this game, you wouldn't be so sure of my alignment.

Actually I think you're being bad regardless of alignment. I SUSPECT you're town and am trying to educate you in order to be less bad. I could be wrong, but until I have solid reason to think you're scum, I'm going to talk to you as if you're town. That's not even slightly indicative on me, unless you think you have some magic way to differentiate from someone who THINKS you're town and someone who KNOWS you're town (and if you are town, perhaps this game will teach you how dumb that approach is).

Your tone is not an arrogant tone. Your tone is of desperate scum that is trying to disprove anything that is thrown of you because it's a bad case. And that's a scum tell. And arrogance is NAI. Of course you are going to answer me by telling me how wrong I am and how good of a player are you both.

1) Because you weren't going to answer. That is clear.

2) I READ FITZ AS TOWN. THEREFORE, THERE WOULDN'T BE ANY MOTIVATION FOR HIM TO DON'T BELIEVE IN WHAT HE'S SAYING. See, I can use caps lock too.

3) Then stop disregarding my posts and pretending to be the saviour of Mafiascum. Go find scum. Engage with who you think is scum. Your only interactions right now are with me and Magna. You're not concerned about finding scum. You're concerned about defending yourself. If you don't think I'm town, how can you go around and try to educate me to scumhunt better? This is you displaying your knowledge of who's town again. Curse all you want, you slipped.

[lucca261]

and his point about scumslips makes me think that he's scum caught from the wrong reasons, and now is fuckin' angry about it.

"caught for the wrong reasons"
or
"town who thinks that the case against him is bullshit"

What exactly differentiates the two in your mind? And what makes you think I'm angry about being caught, as opposed to contemptuous towards the seemingly dumb player who actually believes this crap?

-M

town player would try to go against the case with substanced opinions. you are trying to go against the players.

again, you're treating me as conftown. am I the only one seeing this?

[lucca261]

@UD, 975: you were voting Mozamis. so, when's he lynched, your reaction is thinking that who hammered is scum? this makes no sense.

---

let's not forget UD though process here:

UD: "Hey, arrogance is a town-tell" --- "I do posts where I'm completely arrogant, appeal to emotion and demonstrate knowledge of alignment" --- "but I am arrogant, therefore I'm town" --- "why? because I'm arrogant, and arrogance is town"

---

in the middle of the UD crazyness, I don't like that Hans jumped at the discussion to defend himself, made no points, and gets out proclaiming UD as town (?) because of his bad excuse.

Hans-UD-Nahdia, anybody?

[lucca261]

nahdia has posted nothing.

revan disappeared from the face of the earth as soon as pressure laid off him.

doom is posting scummy shit and trying to go for every lynch he can.

superhans is superhans.

I've done enough posts about UD.

---

safe to say my only townreads are Magna and Fitz atm. not voting Nahdia, Doom or Revan today, too.

today we should lynch between UD and Hans.

[lucca261]

...

Your tone is not an arrogant tone. Your tone is of desperate scum that is trying to disprove anything that is thrown of you because it's a bad case. And that's a scum tell. And arrogance is NAI. Of course you are going to answer me by telling me how wrong I am and how good of a player are you both.

1) Because you weren't going to answer. That is clear.

2) I READ FITZ AS TOWN. THEREFORE, THERE WOULDN'T BE ANY MOTIVATION FOR HIM TO DON'T BELIEVE IN WHAT HE'S SAYING. See, I can use caps lock too.

3) Then stop disregarding my posts and pretending to be the saviour of Mafiascum. Go find scum. Engage with who you think is scum. Your only interactions right now are with me and Magna. You're not concerned about finding scum. You're concerned about defending yourself. If you don't think I'm town, how can you go around and try to educate me to scumhunt better? This is you displaying your knowledge of who's town again. Curse all you want, you slipped.

0) As with doomfeathers' stated tone read, you should be able to provide explicit examples if you think I have a fake arrogant tone. Please do this.

1) So I originally wasn't going to answer, and then I did answer after a second person asked me, and that makes me scum because ___?

2)

What about his argument as presented makes you think he believes it?

You're choosing to ignore the question I asked and instead answer a different question. I didn't ask you about your overall read of him, I asked about what you see in HIS ARGUMENT AS PRESENTED that makes you think it's sincere. This is me asking you to demonstrate your thought process. Now that I've restated my question (which was clear enough the first time btw), why don't you just answer it?

3) This is you choosing to believe that I've "slipped" knowledge of who's town instead of the very obvious possibility that I'm talking to you as if you were town because that's how I tend to talk to people. It's conceivable that this is scum hiding behind this kind of behvaior, but my gut says super derp town makes more sense.

and his point about scumslips makes me think that he's scum caught from the wrong reasons, and now is fuckin' angry about it.

"caught for the wrong reasons"
or
"town who thinks that the case against him is bullshit"

What exactly differentiates the two in your mind? And what makes you think I'm angry about being caught, as opposed to contemptuous towards the seemingly dumb player who actually believes this crap?

-M

town player would try to go against the case with substanced opinions. you are trying to go against the players.

again, you're treating me as conftown. am I the only one seeing this?

1) I ask you for evidence behind your opinions, you choose to focus on the attack part. Did you not care about the question or did you just decide it was easier to focus on the latter? If the second option, why is that?

2) Apparently you are the only such person (though I suspect it'll be sheeped soon enough). I've stated multiple times that I am not in fact treating you as conftown, and that in general I treat people as town unless I think they're scum. You're overlooking or actively disregarding what I've said. Why is that?

-M

0) I never said you are faking arrogance. This is again you putting things on my mouth. I said that your tone is of scum trying to get through the pressure.

1) You are only trying to answer stuff if people pressure you? If it wouldn't be a problem, you wouldn't answer at all? Regardless of who you are, you are a better player than to not know why I think this.

2) Why is this question relevant? Why should I care about what part of the argument would made he believe it or no. If he is town, he has no reason to not believe it. NO REASON. And I think he's town. So he believes in all parts of the argument. (This is UD asking me a nonsense question, that I obviously won't answer, so he can say: "Hey, lucca doesn't answer questions."

3) In every interaction you have with people you have to believe something. You believe that I'm super derp town. I believe that you slipped. What is the problem?

---

1) the thing that differenciate both is the attack part. town would be concerned with defend yourself by attacking the case. you are trying to attack the player to disprove them.

2) yes, I should believe that what UD is doing is not scummy, because UD said so. You have said that you treat people as town unless you think they're scum. I think that you have slipped. It's different opinions of a same situation.

[lucca261]

@UD, 975: you were voting Mozamis. so, when's he lynched, your reaction is thinking that who hammered is scum? this makes no sense.

Vote Count 2.7

Mozamis

(3):

Superhans

, MagnaofIllusion, Ultimate Despair, havingfitz

Ultimate Despair

(3): lucca261,

mozamis

, revan, mozamis

Superhans

(1):

Revan

,

mozamis

, doomfeathers

Revan

(1): superhans,

mozamis

Not Voting

(1): Nahdia_Superfan,

superhans

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Nahdia_Superfan replaces wgeurts.

Deadline has been extended.

(expired on 2017-02-08 09:00:01) until deadline.

Wow MOI is on a wagon I should vote there.

VOTE: Mozamis

VOTE: Moz

K switching to Moz, agree that her reads seem fake, and Rev doesn't seem likely today.

Moz is on L1 btw.

K nm she is L0

Given that these were all on the same page, can you explain how you failed to realize that your vote was hammer?

-M

Forget the context of mozami's flip. Does this or does this not look suspicious to you? Do you NEED a flip to look at that and think it's questionable to have hammered while ignoring the vote that just happened that was both obvious and sketchy-looking? If yes, explain why. If no, explain why what I did was somehow problematic. Please also note that I QUESTIONED him about his vote. The "omg M pretended to hard-scum read Hans right as soon as that vote was made" bit is factually inaccurate and not consistent with what I did at all.

---

let's not forget UD though process here:

UD: "Hey, arrogance is a town-tell" --- "I do posts where I'm completely arrogant, appeal to emotion and demonstrate knowledge of alignment" --- "but I am arrogant, therefore I'm town" --- "why? because I'm arrogant, and arrogance is town"

At no point did I ever demonstrate knowledge of alignment, either wrt mozami or wrt you. Just becuase you say it a bunch of times does not mean it's true.

Also please demonstrate my AtE as you understand it, instead of trying to just attack me for what you claim to be seeing. A half-assed "summary" of what you read as my behavior is completely useless.

Yes, that hammer is scummy for me. It's scummy for me NOW. If Mozamis had flipped scum, it wouldn't be scummy. I said so, multiple times. This is not my point. You finding the hammer scummy or non-scummy is NAI. We can't forget the context of Mozamis flip. You're asking me to throw out an important piece of the puzzle.

If you think that quicklynching a town slot, and quicklynching a scum slot is similar, you're crazy. You can't possibly think that. My point is that if you really believed that Mozamis was scum, you would have a different reaction. You were voting him, You seemingly thought he was scum. But before the flip, you react bad to a hammer on a town player. That's knowledge of alignment.

---

I believe you did. I've read your posts as this.

the appeal to emotion part should be attack the enemy. I got confused by the acronyms. sorry.

[lucca261]

---

in the middle of the UD crazyness, I don't like that Hans jumped at the discussion to defend himself, made no points, and gets out proclaiming UD as town (?) because of his bad excuse.

Hans-UD-Nahdia, anybody?

nahdia has posted nothing.

revan disappeared from the face of the earth as soon as pressure laid off him.

doom is posting scummy shit and trying to go for every lynch he can.

superhans is superhans.

I've done enough posts about UD.

---

safe to say my only townreads are Magna and Fitz atm. not voting Nahdia, Doom or Revan today, too.

today we should lynch between UD and Hans.

So nearly everyone is scummy, and you posit that Nahdia is part of the scum team, but you're not voting there, or for what you represent as pretty clearly scummy behavior from Doom and Revan, but instead decide that the lynch must be between UD and Hans.

That's a lot of "scummy town" that you say you're seeing. What exactly separates those out from either my or Hans slots? If you're going to basically represent that the whole board is scummy, I'm curious why you think that either I or Hans, much less both of us, stand out strongly from the others. What, other than "well I think it's UD/Hans", makes the others scummy town?

-M

yes, nearly everyone is scummy. I have only solid townreads at the moment. Nahdia and Doom are more like null. Both of them, because I was townreading them before D3. This is what it's different between you and them. You and Hans did scummy shit today. Revan has not.

I think that you and hans are scum. Revan lean scum, Nahdia and Doom are null.

Are you trying to say that I'm not comitting to a read? That I only started scumreading you both now? I'm scumreading you both for a long time. I have a lot of more scum points against you and hans that I have against other people.

---

It's just that I don't think that Revan and Doom would make sense with you both. So leaving Nahdia. Not difficult.

[lucca261]

doom is posting scummy shit and trying to go for every lynch he can.

Yeah, no. I've kept it pretty much in the pool of (UD, Revan, Superhans) which I think is most likely to contain scum. I'm not wagoning MoI today, and probably not you, Fitz, or Nahdia.

that is the problem. you are not committing to somebody you want to lynch. You are putting the three most scumread player together and saying: "I'm fine with lynching any of these three".

you are leaving to the other players to decide who we will be lynching, and I don't like that.

[lucca261]

0) I never said you are faking arrogance. This is again you putting things on my mouth. I said that your tone is of scum trying to get through the pressure.

"Your tone is not an arrogant tone. Your tone is of desperate scum that is trying to disprove anything that is thrown of you because it's a bad case. "
The implication is that I was faking an arrogant tone. This is not me putting words in your mouth, this is me responding to what you said. I acknowledge that I simply could have misread you there, but I certainly don't see how it was unreasonable to do so.

1) You are only trying to answer stuff if people pressure you? If it wouldn't be a problem, you wouldn't answer at all? Regardless of who you are, you are a better player than to not know why I think this.

I wasn't pressured, I was (seemingly) ASKED to provide it. 871 doom asks

Do you have a problem with restating what you've said for the sake of convenience, then?

and then I provided it in 877. Pressure on me for the most part came AFTER that big post (Hans had me on one of his potential lists, Revan called me/Hans as a possibility, not really much else during d3 up to that point, and the only vote made at that point was Hans on Revan).

So clearly I didn't answer due to pressure. So what exactly is the problem you see here? Is this simply something where you THOUGHT that I was under pressure when I provided that data? Do you dispute my version of the facts of the board as they existed at that point in time?

2) Why is this question relevant? Why should I care about what part of the argument would made he believe it or no. If he is town, he has no reason to not believe it. NO REASON. And I think he's town. So he believes in all parts of the argument. (This is UD asking me a nonsense question, that I obviously won't answer, so he can say: "Hey, lucca doesn't answer questions."

It's actually not a nonsense question. It's asking you to look at the specifics of what he was doing with a critical eye. I was curious if you were capable or interested in doing this. Apparently the answer is no.

3) In every interaction you have with people you have to believe something. You believe that I'm super derp town. I believe that you slipped. What is the problem?

My problem is that your argument that I "slipped" is nonsensical. My problem is that it's difficult to distinguish between lazy townies who push this because they're lazy, and scum who push this because it's an easy argument to use to pretend to be useful.

---

1) the thing that differenciate both is the attack part. town would be concerned with defend yourself by attacking the case. you are trying to attack the player to disprove them.

Town attack the players who attack them all the time. This isn't your first game, this shouldn't be news to you. You may WISH that town only attacked arguments and not people but I don't believe that this it's somehow news to you that people do not, in fact, play this way. Also...

"caught for the wrong reasons"
or
"town who thinks that the case against him is bullshit"

What exactly differentiates the two in your mind? Do you truly think that town who thinks that the case aginast him is bullshit would only attack arguments and not the people making them?

2) yes, I should believe that what UD is doing is not scummy, because UD said so. You have said that you treat people as town unless you think they're scum. I think that you have slipped. It's different opinions of a same situation.

How many times in your career have you seen this argument being made that someone is treating someone else as town (especially as a response to a push) being a "slip" that they know their alignment? How many times has this argument been correct? Again, this isn't your first game, you should have background that you can use to evaluate the effectiveness of this "tell" (hint: it's a terrible tell and virtually no one can reliably tell alignment from this).

-M

0) I was definitely mad at you when I said that. About our interaction as well. Apologies if I disrespected you of some form.
I don't think you're faking an arrogant tone. I think that simply you are not doing an arrogant tone. Let's stop this discussion because it's not getting nowhere.

1) You were being pressured my Magna, right? He would vote you because you didn't answer his questions and all that. That's pressure. But anyway.

2) What are you trying to imply here? Do you think Fitz is scum that's using that to create a mislynch? That he is too good to be using such a dumb tell? Tell me, if I'm not capable of finding out.

3) So do you think I'm lazy town?
My scumread on you goes much further than this "knowledge of alignment" and we both know it. I've been scumreading you since D1, and this stuff happened at D3. Don't go around and say that scum pushing you with easy arguments when you know that this is not the case.

---

1) In a perfect world, we agree that town would attack only the arguments. But the percentage of town who attack the enemy exclusively is way lower than the ones who attack the argument. It's basic psychology. Scum players know that the argument is true, so they attack the enemy instead. Town players know that it's false, so they attack the argument.
What differentiates them both?
Caught from the wrong reasons scum is scum that thinks that they played a good game, and is caught by something dumb like a fake hammer, slip or something like that. Then they normally get mad and all emotional.

Town who think that the case against him is bullshit is town that realizes that a case against him is bullshit. My point against you, and you can clearly see this by how many times I asked you if you townread me, is that I think that Town who think that normally scumreads the player who is doing the case against him. If a player believes that a case is so bad against them, to the point where they get mad about it, they normally think that the only reason someone would do a case so bad is if they are trying to push a mislynch.

But I don't think my case is bullshit. The stuff about the slips, they can be differented viewed by differing players? yes. Maybe it was not scummy and I've been confbiasing you. It doesn't change the fact that I had a scumread on you for a long time and want to see you lynched. And I still believe you slipped.

2) I have seen players get caught on weird tells. I have seen players get caught on fake hammers. I have seen players self-vote as town. Each game is unique. On this game, I think you're scum and slipped.

I'm starting to think that you're scum, but you really believe that stuff about tells and such. And you're not mad about being caught. You are mad about being catch with a thing that you would do regardless of alignment.

I have no experience needed to measure the effectiveness of said tells. If you want to tell me, I would be happy to hear from you.

[lucca261]

@superhans, 1015: it's just that Revan lurking is scummy. what you and UD did today is more scummy.

@doom, 1027: this are three only three lynches that are happening today. AKA all of the possible lynches.

@fitz, 1029-1030: like this two posts by Fitz. he is trying to look for scum and seems to be asking the right question. town for sure.

I'm getting annoyed at the lack of content from Nahdia slot.

[lucca261]

I was focusing on my other game today. I went without posting on it for two days to continue my discussions with UD. I read your posts and I think a lot of them makes sense. I liked in special the part where scum must have been townreading between them. I think you are town, because for scum, it wouldn't make sense to go against the UD/Revan/Hans stuff.

It's almost 5:00 AM here in Brazil. I'm tired and going to sleep. Tomorrow I'll engage with you.

[lucca261]

I'm still here.

There is an alternative opinion about MOI. MOI keeps lynching town wagons. Maybe scum is keeping him alive so he can still lynch this wagons. I think even yourself said this, your catchup is big and I'm forgetting.

Your points about Magna make sense. I don't Fitz is scum, though. And I don't see how you can confirm that Hans is 100% town. I just can't. He made a lot of scummy stuff on this game, especially on D1.

[lucca261]

for a second I went wtf why is RadiantCowbells posting at this game.

then i realized.

[lucca261]

so I had some friends, watched the Super Bowl (yes, from here in Brazil) and did some shit today. will catch up and post today.

[lucca261]

VOTE: Magna

nexy day I will vote UD.

[lucca261]

Game over guys. Nice playing with you all.

Great game.

[lucca261]

hans was drunk and shot him.

for no reason.

it was fun.

[lucca261]

we got mad about it too, relax.

but I was actually angry with you, UD.

and you were right about everything. sometimes is better to play the dumb town.

[lucca261]

catching up. will read. just for the force of habit.

[lucca261]

Thanks for all the praise guys, you were all pleasant to play with. Thanks Karnos too, for the modding.

In retrospect, the Hawk drunk-kill worked out pretty well, so maybe props (?) to Hans for doing it. You should drink more often. Montell Ingredients.

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Learned a lot on this game. thx guys.