Open 669 - Nightless Vengeful Mayhem [Game Over]

[wgeurts]

Did nobody read their PM, votes aren't counted yet as we haven't officially started day 1.

So on that note.

VOTE: sesq

I legit don't know anyone in this game properly. Especially not your play. Anyone in the secret hydra aware of my play or who I am?

[wgeurts]

I'm a little confused about the mechanics. How do the Mafia kill more than two people with no night phase and only two daykills?

Hey, everyone. I'm doomfeathers and I'm here to remind you that as a member of the town, I don't know anything about the way scum operates in this setup and therefore need to ask a question to everyone so you all know how ignorant of the mafia inner mechanisms I am.

Scum ping for the LAMIST.

- Junko

Now this post really unnerves me already. Why would you post something like this even as town? If you're aware of this kind of behaviour it's best to just wait and see if anyone displays it as you could draw information from it. I wouldn't however call this post inherently scum on its own though. Usually you'd be able to look at playstyle for this type of thing. We do however know at least Junko has some mafia experience and won't be able to play a newbie card.

[wgeurts]

I've played nightless before, scum wins only if the town becomes apathetic. Don't spam but don't disappear or lurk either.

[wgeurts]

I misread some stuff earlier, ignore that post I made on ultimate completely as I hadn't seen that he was pointing out Doom's behaviour. If anything I'd call that ever so slightly town, what I said earlier is wrong.

@Magna
Doom's post 9 doesn't read to me the same way you're stating it does to you. The mod did message us all that our votes don't count yet, but didn't send us each the setup. He didn't need to know the rules to be able to know the former, which weakens what you're saying. Post 14 is worse, but can also come from town especially considering he is fairly new.

Also what you say about winning town reads is true, however it's risky to go for too much town credit early on as the lack of day-kill on them stands out. There's always the element of WiFoM involved though. It also works as a double-edged sword, if the town can form a bloc then they're able to put a lot of pressure on scum as well.

[wgeurts]

Not particularly Magna. Not at this time anyway. It's already been pointed out and noted. I neither like nor dislike what Doom said and would rather see other peoples reactions and reasoning before anything else because to me it just reads rather Null... I don't feel like reading into it too much because you get into a WIFOM argument about why he would say this.

No need to delve that deeply into a person's statement so early. Honestly the heavy evaluation of P1 by you makes me actually think you're trying too hard if you want to know honestly. But I've never played nightless so it may just be the setup changing the pace of the game.

Isn't delving into people's statements what gets the ball rolling? Pressure early on is good. Magna's post isn't town or scum I'd say right now, as town have just as much incentive to try and create content as scum do. If anything, scum may let the game go it's own way for a while and not intervene as to avoid attention and let the town go on a bit of a wild-goose chase. This is so in every game, not specifically this setup only.

[wgeurts]

I'm a little confused about the mechanics. How do the Mafia kill more than two people with no night phase and only two daykills?

Not knowing the rules didn't affect my PM, and getting a sum role wouldn't have explained them to me. This doesn't count as (real or faked) evidence of townishness. Sorry. (Maybe I should have asked somebody about gameplay first, but I figured this was a good place to find out.)

The reason I'm confused is that, without a nightkill, a game ending with one scum and one townie left alive would never end because lynching is the only means of death at that point (assuming scum have used both their kills). How is this situation resolved?

Your behaviour however does indicate what your role PM may contain. It can be used as a tell, and saying otherwise is wrong.

A 1 on 1 situation counts as scum-win regardless.

[wgeurts]

VOTE: Hawk

[wgeurts]

Doom, figuring out scum's best play is what town is meant to do. Like chess, you should always be predicting what they're going to do. Considering what's town and scum are likely to do, and reading posts to see which motivation makes more sense, is what we call scum-hunting. It's very hard to catch scum if you don't spend time thinking about what scum do, they're not going to hand themselves over on a platter. Me posting on it means everyone can take it into consideration. It's also not so that I've only posted game theory, you're leaving part of my posts untouched.

Also, hell yes we should form a town bloc, that's literally what we should be aiming for. Right now though? Definitely not, and I've never said so. That happens later game, once reads are more established, people have flipped, and one or two scum shots have gone off. How is this suspicious? You can't just call things suspicious without explaining why.

There's also a large gap between fluff-posting and trying to intentionally pick an argument to distract the town.

A. That's a stretch as really nobody's going to be distracted by a side-discussion about someone's username. Thus no time is wasted. Scum know this if they're decent at least.

B. Why would scum do that so early on? Stalling and redirecting attention is best done mid-late day when the deadline draws near or a scum-partner is in danger. Neither of those conditions have been met yet.

C. It is still RVS, notice how people don't have firm reads and are randomly voting?

VOTE: Doom

Please reconsider and/or explain yourself.

[wgeurts]

Not particularly Magna. Not at this time anyway. It's already been pointed out and noted. I neither like nor dislike what Doom said and would rather see other peoples reactions and reasoning before anything else because to me it just reads rather Null... I don't feel like reading into it too much because you get into a WIFOM argument about why he would say this.

No need to delve that deeply into a person's statement so early. Honestly the heavy evaluation of P1 by you makes me actually think you're trying too hard if you want to know honestly. But I've never played nightless so it may just be the setup changing the pace of the game.

Isn't delving into people's statements what gets the ball rolling? Pressure early on is good. Magna's post isn't town or scum I'd say right now, as town have just as much incentive to try and create content as scum do. If anything, scum may let the game go it's own way for a while and not intervene as to avoid attention and let the town go on a bit of a wild-goose chase. This is so in every game, not specifically this setup only.

Not nesscarily. Shady sheep votes. Lack of creation of content and discussion from person, and fast RVS wagons all can naturally get the ball rolling. Delving deeply into the psychology of two posts made by one person to me is trying to hard to move the game forward earlier. Not to say that I don't appreciate getting out of RVS quickly I just don't see the point of reading so deeply so early on. That's how you create cognitive dissonance.

I'm not saying what Magna has done is scummy I just don't agree with that playstyle. Trying hard to come up and formulate good reads from little content is good. Trying so hard when there's literally one page is a good receipe for tunneling or being less open to other ideas.

As for the pace of the game and nightless I purely meant that perhaps this format benefits town pressuring quickly and early so long as we don't become tunneled. I don't know since I've never played or watched night less play out and am purely speaking figuratively. Otherwise I might actually read what Magna was doing one way or the other. Right now just about everyone is still Null for me.

Pedit:

I honestly don't feel like we are out of RVS... all of this content you guys think is here feels forced and easily could be fluff. Like I said Null feels all around. Plus I like engaging people rather than just googling it. Do you think Revan voted me out of RVS? I don't think so. If he did he better speak now. Ignore shit that doesn't partake to the game if it's one damn post if it bothers you that much.

Shady sheep votes are a result of someone pushing something, else there is nothing to sheep. The game wont ever gain content until a push is started, just chatting as if we're at a tea-party doesn't bring us anywhere. I fail to see how it's bad to try and speed up content creation, or just give your opinions if you've already got some. If anything it's beneficial.

Cog-Dis is something that happens regardless, that's something unrelated to RVS. See it this way: the sooner content is made the more time town has to discuss and figure things out. The more time we have the better we can do that. Tunnenling is a personal issue, not a result of RVS once again. If someone tunnels, they need to work on that personally. Orrrrrr.... you push them for it. Content=good. We're playing to win here.

You're not making much sense.

[wgeurts]

{wgeurts}
{UD}
{Magna}
{Hawk}
{Doom}

[wgeurts]

To Doomfeathers, I was making a joke; I knew I couldn't vote, so I did that.

And I was answering your question.

Vote: Doomfeathers

For being confusing.

How is being confusing a valid argument here?
Give me some reads and thoughts now unless you want to be voted.

[wgeurts]

Magna, care to explain what you dislike about my post? I'm leaning town on you right now. My reads list goes from most town on top to most scum at the bottom. As off now all reads are weak, and will likely change.

{wgeurts}
{magna, UD}
{Hawk}
{Doom, FC}

Hawk's explanation is feasible, although I may not agree with the way he approaches things it now makes sense somewhat. Going to have to see some action on his end before putting him as town though. FC's vote is dodgy, reinforced by the fact he is also newish. I would like some explanation first before making a final judgement though.

[wgeurts]

@Magna.

Nope. At least not good reads. Good pressure can be formed, and it can start a wagon easily. How the person reacts and the posts after are more important than the first 2-4 posts a person makes. Yes hindsight being 20/20 after flips early posts can be indicative of scum but D1 no I don't think you can identify scum from their early posts unless they are almost out right saying they're scum.

I disagree, I'm awful at it and prefer associative tells plus VCA, however I've seen some pull of very early scum reads that turned out correct on a frequent basis. I don't understand how but it's possible.

[wgeurts]

Magma how much experience to you have with mafia?

What are your thoughts on the game?

[wgeurts]

Ultimate Despair.

[wgeurts]

Magna, in 32 I was confused as to how you were reading Doom's post. Most of my play revolves around getting into people's heads and figuring out what they're after. I could see something to be said about his rules clarification, yet the added layer you added by contrasting it to his earlier post is something I cannot see and hence asked clarification for.

My ABC is me pointing out three things which show he's making no sense. My vote isn't based on them, I voted him mainly as I dislike the manner he decided to vote me. After I mentioned some theory involving my views on what the town's best options are in this setup he votes me and somewhat jabs at what I'd been explaining, combined with the fact he is newer I would say there's something to be said of a possibility of him disliking what I'm implying and him trying to discredit that. He's a newer player, more experienced players would know doing so is futile. It's weak, but that's how everything starts off and depending on how he reacts the read may be prone to change.

As for my lists, I indeed nicked them from ranger. Difference is I'm a strong supporter of town being as transparent as they can be without harming the town. If you ever want extra clarification on a read of mine: ask and if I haven't explained already (in which I'll show where) I'll do so. I can also add "light town" etc. next to the tiers if you wish, that's not too much of a hassle. I mostly started using them as a way to gather my reads (and they're easy to type out).

You're correct on your view of the first list, the second is town, weak town, null-town, weak scum.

[wgeurts]

Actually hawk was null-scum, meaning null but gun to head scum (so only a very slight lean).

[wgeurts]

In the first list that is^

[wgeurts]

Anyway, since I think it's ""officially"" day 1 i'll reconfirm vote on VOTE: doomfeathers

Why no reasoning behind this revote?

Same reasoning as my earlier vote, just redoing it because I wasn't sure if my earlier vote counted.

Sesq, have you read the game?

[wgeurts]

jeez...a lot to catch up on...almost all of it probably town on town bollocks as always...
i had a brief skim ealrier, and hawk looked SOOOOOOOOO TOWN.
So that's one down.

How?

[wgeurts]

taking doomfeathers confusion about game mechanics at face value.
seems an unnecessary scum gambit. so he's provisional town.

This is also logically awful.

[wgeurts]

@Doom post 72
The best play being known to all makes it less worthwhile, the less scum can get away with and the more they're forced to play at a high standard the harder it gets for them. Full transparency from everyone makes stuff hard for scum. My reason for voting you was outlined in a later post in response to magma by the way.

I'm also a mod on the wiki so I've read all the articles, many are old and apply to a meta no longer applicable. They great stuff to understand how you should be approaching the game, but don't use them as law.

[wgeurts]

VOTE: Sesq

Sesq has posted five times, but has neither generated content nor voted seriously. She seems to be coasting. Friend Computer has done the same.

Why so quick to change the vote.

Inactivity is NAI.

VOTE: Doom

Inactivity can be alignment indicative, especially when paired with fluff-posting. Regardless, those not contributing should be pressured.

[wgeurts]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is my first game where mafia has daytalk, so this is going to be interesting.

UNVOTE:

Already don't like this. It's scummy. Revan just says: hey, look at me, posting facts about this game and contribuiting nothing. other people did this, but his pinged me the wrong way.

A few others have done this, thoughts?

How scummy would you say it is on aa scale of 1-10?

[wgeurts]

I thought about what somebody (I think it was wgeurts) said about your play being NAI, and it made sense, so I don't have good reason to scumread you anymore. Voting for inactive players to produce more content is common practice. Also, you were already voting for me.

Fair enough I suppose.

Also I know that why do you think I put the vote again?

Also why Sesq and not Friendly then? What about Sesq's few inactive posts tickles your fancy more than Friendlys?

Hawk, explain your votes instead of asking other to. That's too easy.

[wgeurts]

taking doomfeathers confusion about game mechanics at face value.
seems an unnecessary scum gambit. so he's provisional town.

This is also logically awful.

No it is not. I am talking probabilities, throwing out some really early PROVISIONAL DAY 1 READS. Get a grip.

He's a new guy, as scum he may think it's a really clever play and it's often seen, as town he may just be being honest.

[wgeurts]

Town |wgeurts|
Weak Town |Magna|
Slightly Weaker Town |UD|
Null Town |Doom, Hawk|
Null Scum |Revan|
Slightly Scum |sesq, FC|

[wgeurts]

VOTE: Sesq

[wgeurts]

Lucca, in what way am I not doing what you say magna is doing? Big analysis trying to look pro-town?

[wgeurts]

Lucca I'm hesitant to put in the town pile right now, I need some interactions and more content.

[wgeurts]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is my first game where mafia has daytalk, so this is going to be interesting.

UNVOTE:

Already don't like this. It's scummy. Revan just says: hey, look at me, posting facts about this game and contribuiting nothing. other people did this, but his pinged me the wrong way.

A few others have done this, thoughts?

How scummy would you say it is on aa scale of 1-10?

Lucca, in what way am I not doing what you say magna is doing? Big analysis trying to look pro-town?

Quoting these to make it easy to respond to.

[wgeurts]

I'm a little confused about the mechanics. How do the Mafia kill more than two people with no night phase and only two daykills?

Hey, everyone. I'm doomfeathers and I'm here to remind you that as a member of the town, I don't know anything about the way scum operates in this setup and therefore need to ask a question to everyone so you all know how ignorant of the mafia inner mechanisms I am.

Scum ping for the LAMIST.

- Junko

This is about as town as one can get pre-game Lucca.

[wgeurts]

Hawk, call me yoghurt, gogurt, or TheLegend27

[wgeurts]

Doom, mind linking the wiki article?

[wgeurts]

What does LAMIST mean? I've not seen this new hip term.

[wgeurts]

Please, not that ad.

"What are you guys playing?"
"I’m supposed to be playing MafiaScum™ but this one player keeps kicking my ass.
"Is it TheLegend27?!"
"Yeah, TheLegend27."
"Who is the legend 27?"

"Some say TheLegend27 is the first MafiaScum™ player ever. Born from fire."
"I heard, TheLegend27 can deathtunnel a man harder than Titus."
"I heard TheLegend27 once defeated an entire scum-team with a single vig-shot."
"But the worst part is, just when you think you’ve neutralised him, just when you think you might not have to bite the rope… WHAM!!! Vengeful kills the remains scum!"
*collective gasps*
*Iphone Notification*
"What? No, no no no, no no no!"
*Iphone Notification*
"That’s impossible! “TheLegend27” has created a town bloc!"
"And is lynching our Godfather!"
"Aw you guys, I’m sure it’s not that bad."
"You have no idea what just happened."
"I might have some idea."
*wgeurts turns around, and powers his device’s screen, showing he is in fact TheLegend27*

[wgeurts]

Lucca my first post on Us was fundementally flawed.

[wgeurts]

UD*

[wgeurts]

Doom, mind linking the wiki article?

Be as distracting as possible. While people will complain if you make too many wall posts, almost nobody complains if you take up several pages with a silly one-on-one argument that nobody else cares about. This can be done with a buddy or your primary suspect. Use confusing pronouns whenever possible to increase uncertainty, and never let a single point drop. Argue your stance back and forth, getting more obscure each time. If you make reference to an earlier post, state the number but do not give a link. Nobody will admit that they can't follow the argument, they will find it difficult to concentrate both on reading you and pushing their own agenda, and best of all, they can't call you out on anything because you're just a loyal townie doing his best to catch scum.

Gah, would have been so much easier had you not been able to link one implying you were lying.

[wgeurts]

VOTE: Friendly Computer
Reads wall inbound in the coming 24 hours. Will also respond to people then.

[wgeurts]

Just to start off for now, Revan and FC have both got garbage reads lists.

[wgeurts]

Phone-posting whilst commuting:

@Mod, what is the nature of the kill and what is Hawk's role? That sort of information should be available to us, could you confirm whether it is a mod-kill or mafia shot?

[wgeurts]

Also yeah, stay tuned for a read wall one again. I'm going to assume Hawk was town for now but that gives a chance to do some early associative tells. I'll reread the thread once I'm free and I'll put together a set of reads plus explanations.

[wgeurts]

Also, some quick thought dumps:
This kill either shows that we have a less experienced scum team and that something about Hawk unnerved them, checking interactions with him could yield information if so.

It could also indicate a more experienced team trying to disturb the flow of the game. I however lean towards the former as the game is starting to stall slightly (START POSTING PEOPLE), and the benefits of killing Hawk now don't seem to be worth more than saving the shot. If a game is stalling it's in the scums interest to let it stall, less discussion works in their favour. Killing someone tends to spark some new discussion, which doesn't make all too much sense. If they're currently under a lot of pressure it would still make sense to wait with the kill, however it takes experience to know this. Finally it's so much better to wait with any kill until later as the day is still just beginning, things can change easily and kills become ever the more important later game.

Food for thought.

[wgeurts]

I'm a little confused about the mechanics. How do the Mafia kill more than two people with no night phase and only two daykills?

Hey, everyone. I'm doomfeathers and I'm here to remind you that as a member of the town, I don't know anything about the way scum operates in this setup and therefore need to ask a question to everyone so you all know how ignorant of the mafia inner mechanisms I am.

Scum ping for the LAMIST.

- Junko

Now this post really unnerves me already. Why would you post something like this even as town? If you're aware of this kind of behaviour it's best to just wait and see if anyone displays it as you could draw information from it. I wouldn't however call this post inherently scum on its own though. Usually you'd be able to look at playstyle for this type of thing. We do however know at least Junko has some mafia experience and won't be able to play a newbie card.

UD, I was tired and somehow completely overlooked that this was you responding to someone. I read it as you being the one claiming issues with mechanics and then dumping a layer of WiFoM over it. In hindsight that's ridiculous and that's why I changed views after seeing my mistake.

[wgeurts]

It could also indicate a more experienced team trying to disturb the flow of the game

I'm curious what you mean here. The "screwup" explanation seems straightforwardly plausible; what kind of experienced team action do you think would fit or even be sensible in this situation? Like, Hawk got shot, and other than resetting the vote counts (just a mechanical thing anyway since people can just revote), how did it actually disturb the flow of the game?
-M

If for some reason the scum team really wanted to stir-up how the game was heading killing someone is distraction that has a chance of accomplishing that. People analyse stuff and start to draw new conclusions, if they're amongst those making conclusions that seem somewhat legitimate then they can avert whatever later game scenario they didn't want. This however seems unlikely for the reasons I mentioned above though.

[wgeurts]

Also add a third possibility, the scum just want to mess around.

[wgeurts]

I'm almost done with my reads wall (emphasis on wall, five more players to cover and then taking a look at hawks posts). The lack of posts is concerning me though.

[wgeurts]

{wgeurts}
{UD, Doom}
(magna, Lucca}
{mozamis, sesq}
{Superhans, havingfitz}
{Revan, FC}

mozamis - Town lean

Mozamis' first post (67) isn't really notable besides the comment about the majority of posts probably being "town on town bollocks", this strikes me as an odd comment to make but it's not enough on its own to warrant a read. He also states that Hawk is very town, not providing any explanation and in post 68 states that doom is probably town despite some shoddy reasoning (already discussed). Posts 82 and 86 state that he doesn't place much worth in early day 1 reads, although it doesn't justify his earlier reads it does make them more acceptable and thus believable. Same thing applies to his read on me in post 91, pretty bad reasoning but it appears he doesn't care much for early in-depth analysis. His reads in post 98 somewhat align with my own, although I dislike the lack of explanation I do assign some town credit to this as I would expect people with the same goal drawing somewhat overlapping conclusions. The rest of his posts are fluff.

What I find most notable is how he was so quick to call Hawk town, I doubt you'd do that and then shoot that person as that kind of stuff would carry a huge risk of being fried for white-knighting. mozamis being an older player, and thus I assume has decent experience with mafia, I'd lean towards town on as such. It's a weak read though, he doesn't have much strong content and it would be great to get some explanations for his reads and see him somewhat more engaged.

MagnaofIllusion - Weak-town

Magna's first post 27 is okay, his scum-read on doom there is decentish (although I still don't see what he is saying about his first post), and my first post was awful as I was blatantly mistaken about something. His questioning of people in post 45 is also okay, still nothing that would per-say not come from scum though. I do like his vote on FC in post 46 though, his explanation comes in post 48 and is along the lines of why I disliked FC's post. Post 59 is a good post too, his interactions with me seem to show him trying to figure out how things stand regarding me and my alignment. 73 is also okay.

All in all I wouldn't say that Magna is certainly town, however there's definitely something that appears to be him trying to figure people out in his posts. I get the feeling that his alignment will largely be set in stone later game once there's more content.

wgeurts - Town

Unless this is secretly a bastard game or I can't read I'm town. This is just here for all those people that get really worked up about people including themselves in reads-lists.

Revan - Weak-scum

Revan actually has more posts than I had expected, which in itself is somewhat condemning. All his first posts are fluff, or contain useless questions: take posts 51 and 126 for example. For someone telling others to hold off on him and let him "analyse" and "established a framework for this game" (which he claimed to have almost done in post 126) he's got an awful not of nothing. His first set of content is in post 156, which contains a reads-list containing two unexplained reads (Lucca as town, magna as weak-town). I'm so glad all his analysis and framework building paid off... In a parallel universe. Lucca is a notably odd read, definitely want some more details as to why he's there. Also having almost everyone as null is too easy. His posts so far do give the impression he's just trying to appear useful through asking question which in reality are useless, whilst banking off a promise to provide content once he's established himself. Having everyone as null can from a scum-perspective also be seen as a manner of keeping your options open. 169, his second reads-list is funny. Puts me as town after I showed I wasn't happy with his play (may be wrong here but I can't be assed to check whether this post came before or after my comment) and doom (a pretty gobally criticised player a notable amount have as "keep an eye on") as scum. No explanations once again. Not liking what I'm seeing so far.

Sesq - Town lean

As already discussed sesq's vote in post 57 on doom could be seen as opportunism, him being a newer player makes this a possibility of a scum post. The manner he responds to this pressure in post 64 leads me to question this however. The "why me fry me" is concerning, however the aggression makes sense from a frustrated town perspective. Which leads me to the following question:

Do you have any scum-games you can link us to sesq?

If evidence can be found for him playing aggressively as scum would erase the above and make it entirely null.

His reads are okay, nothing that really strongly leans either way but I'm giving them ever so slight town points as they are valid and do somewhat make sense. He's showing some indication of thought in post 137, and 188 is acceptable. I do like how he's stating that he's open to explaining himself wherever though. The final comment on lucca in 212 is also brutally honest, and something I really struggle to see a scum player making (especially a newer one). Newer players have the tendency to want to seem completely justified in all that they do as scum, often obsessively so. Either that or they do this apathetic opportunistic thingy. I'm willing to lean town on sesq.

Ultimate Despair - The-word-less-strong-than-weak town

I've already stated I quite like post 17 despite an earlier mix-up, this hasn't changed. They miss part of the early stuff which I'm going to assume is explained by time-zones, will note when they post and when they don't however. Their first few posts when they do show up are eh, but okay. Posts like 140 and 141 don't accomplish all too much and can rather easily be made as scum, though they do display what appears to be thought. Post 144 is interesting, I'm intrigued as to why they're deciding to look for scum on sesq's wagon. It seems like a more town thing to do, but I'd still like to see the reasoning behind it. The vote on mozam isn't all too strong but has some acceptable reasoning backing it. They're not going for any of the popular wagons, which is either really condemning if those start flipping scum or great if they don't.

I disagree with what they think on Revan in post 154, as I've already stated I believe that this is just what Revan is trying to let off. Them pursuing me and making sure I answer something in post 202 is good. The interaction that follows is also decent, and more so than most players it looks like this slot is actually trying to get somewhere and get answers from which they then draw conclusions. Townish stuff. 211 is also another decent post. Willing to call this slot more town than the others right now.

lucca261 - Weak-town

Lucca's first realy content is in post 92; he states that he is not happy with magna's first post with some shoddy reasoning, and then makes a bunch of comments some of which contain something of use. It's not a great post, but the fact he's first criticising magna and then considering the slot as town is okay, his things on doom aren't spectacular but also show some thought. Next post (102) is somewhat better, the questions he asks are useful though I need to see him following up on them, his comment on revan also somewhat aligns with my thoughts on him.

@Lucca, please for our sake just use the tags when referring to posts, it would literally shrink the size of your posts by 10 times or something which is enough to make them bearable. I know that's slightly hypocritical coming from me as this post is huge, though imagine the size it would have if I quoted every post I mention in it. Rant over.

111 fits everything I've said about his earlier posts, notably I'm fine with his answer to my question about his view on my earlier posts. It's not the best logic I've ever seen, but it's not blatantly spouting nonsense. He's at least putting thought into stuff. Vote on Revan in 121 is okay. His reaction to Hawk's death in post 191 could be feigned scum reaction, though it's also understandable as town as Hawk's death is rather odd. Won't assign it all too much worth as such.

Overall, I'm willing to say Lucca is more likely to be town than scum. Just a bit more so than sesq and mozam.

Superhans - Null

Superhans is absent from all the first interactions. I'm not going to write a lot here as I don't have terribly much to say. He's not got much content, his vote on revan is okay and his point on doom isn't worth much. I'm null on this slot until he posts more content.

Friend Computer - Weak-scum

FC's first post isn't all too great (post 44), he votes Doom in what could be seen as a rather opportunistic manner (especially since he's also a newer player). Post 133 is also kind of odd, he suspects magna... but he doesn't? In fact magna gets a null-town read along with sesq in post 138. All FC's posts up till now have been fluff or useless, no good content. Only having two null-town reads is something he shouldn't be allowed to get away with. He later in post 153 adds doom to a scum pile trying to justify his earlier vote for which he was criticise (he states doom made a slip-up, doesn't point out where or how though) and scum reads all lurkers (this just seems too easy and opportunistic). This doesn't shed a good light on FC. You remember how I mentioned that "apathetic opportunistic thingy" newer scum players sometimes do? That's what I'm currently seeing here.

doomfeathers - The-word-less-strong-than-weak town

Doom's first few posts are kind of odd. Take post 37 for example. After asking for a clarification on some game mechanics (discussed earlier so I won't go into it here) he then goes ahead and votes me with some rather warped reasoning (something I have already covered as well). I at the time didn't like this, however I'm now considering that he's likely a newer mafia player simply using warped reasoning and lines-of-thought which in his eyes make sense when at times they're not that great. In post 72 he seems satisfied with my response and moves on, I really don't get what he's trying to say about me but I find it hard to see scum doing this. He also justifies some of his behaviour with a wiki article, something newer players have a tendency to do although it's outdated information. I knew an article like the one mentioned existed, however I wanted to see whether he could link it swiftly to make sure he wasn't making stuff up. He did so, passing that test and making some of his thoughts not more valid but more believable.

His votes are all over the place, he votes someone for some odd little thing and then unvotes. When he unvotes it's usually paired with an explanation that makes sense in a kind of new-player twisted way. I don't think scum would play like this, he's not being opportunistic and there's definitely some train of thought to be seen in his transitions. Look at his vote on and off hawk for example, and with sesq. There's also the matter that the way he interacts with hawk simply doesn't like scum talking to town. Finally he also is notably in the "keep an eye on" pile for almost everyone in the game, this sets alarm bells off. Nobody is hard pursuing him but he's there, an option to be taken if the flow of the game provides an opportunity. I'm willing to wager doom is town.

I've quoted referred to less posts in this explanation than in others, if you want me to provide examples if you don't see what I'm seeing just ask and I'll provide.

havingfitz - Null

It's been two hours writing this post, thank god fitz only has like two posts. Post 157 is the only one with content, it mostly contains a bunch of comments on stuff but nothing all too spectacular. Null. Need more content before I shed a judgement.

Hawk analysis post-death:

There's really not much to note, I'm more convinced now of the scum team consisting of largely newer players and that's also somewhat aligning with my reads so far. I'll take another look at the Sesq/Doom-Hawk interactions again later when I'm less brain fried after two hours of analysis. Maybe I'll get more then.

[wgeurts]

If you guys don't start posting soon I'm gonna eat a shoe for doing this all despite having none of the town work along.

[wgeurts]

Like, we've got a flipping death! Go look at interactions and see whether some are more likely to be Town-Town or Scum-Town! Pitch in on others conclusions drawn because of his death. Discuss reads! Why do you agree/disagree. Only by talking and discussing every aspect, having everyone pitch in to get as many view-points as possible can we root out the scum. We don't have PR's this game, rhetoric is our only tool so all that don't post are literally a liability to the town and I'm going to go ahead and say that you're then playing against your win-condition.

If scum have any sense they'll shoot me sooner or later, then you've lost one of your biggest posters. Maybe I'm scum, who cares just flipping post and talk about that maybe? It's in your own interest.

[wgeurts]

Oh, if it isn't clear I'm a lot better at town-hunting than scum-hunting. I really require some deaths before my scum-reads become more solid.

[wgeurts]

VOTE: Friend Computer

Still awaiting the mods answer on Hawk.

[wgeurts]

I still refuse to partake in this shenanigans. :/

Town town town post.

Revan and mozam are not scum together.

[wgeurts]

Also in response to Revan I'm just going to refer back to my reads list a la wall.

[wgeurts]

I'm expecting to be lynched now.

cool, everyone's happy then

Except for the people that townread me

This is a really off comment to make.

[wgeurts]

I've got exams until next week Wednesday so that's why I'm going to be somewhat less active the coming few days. I'll find some time to binge on mafia this weekend though.

[wgeurts]

Sesq was an awful shot what the heck. Anyway, we've got 3 town deaths so it's time to reread the game again and draw associative tells. I'm a little behind due to exams but I'll get a good ammount in this weekend.

[wgeurts]

jeez...a lot to catch up on...almost all of it probably town on town bollocks as always...
i had a brief skim ealrier, and hawk looked SOOOOOOOOO TOWN.
So that's one down.

Eh, never mind. On second ISO, he doesn't look so scummy. I still disagree with avoiding content and judgments early on, though.

UNVOTE: Hawk

I honestly don't feel like we are out of RVS... all of this content you guys think is here feels forced and easily could be fluff. Like I said Null feels all around. Plus I like engaging people rather than just googling it. Do you think Revan voted me out of RVS? I don't think so. If he did he better speak now. Ignore shit that doesn't partake to the game if it's one damn post if it bothers you that much.

Yes, we are out of RVS. We have been for a while now. Once someone votes someone else for a good reason rather than just at random, RVS ends. And I was not saying that you were playing poorly, but that your post had what I saw as likely scum motivation. Why should I ignore it?

Doom, figuring out scum's best play is what town is meant to do. Like chess, you should always be predicting what they're going to do. Considering what's town and scum are likely to do, and reading posts to see which motivation makes more sense, is what we call scum-hunting. It's very hard to catch scum if you don't spend time thinking about what scum do, they're not going to hand themselves over on a platter. Me posting on it means everyone can take it into consideration. It's also not so that I've only posted game theory, you're leaving part of my posts untouched.

Unlike chess, I see here a difference between best play and likely play; however, I can see how predicting scum's best play would be a valid strategy, though naming it so they can avoid it seems a little odd.

UNVOTE: wgeurts

Also, hell yes we should form a town bloc, that's literally what we should be aiming for. Right now though? Definitely not, and I've never said so. That happens later game, once reads are more established, people have flipped, and one or two scum shots have gone off. How is this suspicious? You can't just call things suspicious without explaining why.

Thank you for clarifying that we're waiting until later. I have problems with limitations on who I vote for without reasons I see as good.

A. That's a stretch as really nobody's going to be distracted by a side-discussion about someone's username. Thus no time is wasted. Scum know this if they're decent at least.

It could clog up the thread if done right. I read an article about that.

B. Why would scum do that so early on? Stalling and redirecting attention is best done mid-late day when the deadline draws near or a scum-partner is in danger. Neither of those conditions have been met yet.

Thank you for explaining this; I didn't know.

C. It is still RVS, notice how people don't have firm reads and are randomly voting?

"Without firm reads" is far different from "randomly". You are voting me for a reason, no?

VOTE: Hawk

Alright doom is town, and you'll have to lynch me before I tolerate someone going after him.

[wgeurts]

Oh crap quick reply also adds the quotes im gathering for associatives. Sorry about that

[wgeurts]

I'm afraid I had less time today than I and envisioned, sorry about that. I shall make sure I contribute at least my views on everyone before the next round of tests hit.

@Doom,
Sesq didn't look all too much like scum in my opinion, but he's dead so it's irrelevant now anyways. I had him as someone we should have kept alive until later, if anyone I would have shot one of the wildcards such as Revan to avoid awkward scenarios later.

[wgeurts]

Mod....

Is wgeurts on secret v/la? Almost 4 days since his last post.

Probably should have set up vla. Exams until Friday, had em since last Wednesday and didn't find the time I wanted to for this game during the weekend.

[wgeurts]

Alright, exams are over. I'm really really sorry for the apathy coming from this slot, I've been really busy and mafia just wasnt a priority.

That's going to change over the course of today though.

[wgeurts]

I'm really sorry to all for for flaking, I've got some crap going on and I thought playing a mafia game wouldn't be a hindrance and would take my mind off things. I was wrong. Shame the town lost,