Undertale Mafia: Friends & Corpses [GAME OVER]

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Greetings, everybody.

I don't think Yume was vla, and she flaked on the entire lynching portion of the day. There is no way Giovanni catches up to the thread, especially given that they don't seem to even be around. I'm pointing out better vig targets than myself so Andrius can ignore them because he's hyper tunneling.

I am around, I just don't play on other games. Yes, it is incredibly difficult to catch up, however, because Day 1 was a 135 page mess, and despite reading Day 1 for three days straight, I am still at a mild loss. There is also the fact that since I am new here, I don't have meta reads on most of you. Anyway, if I see that I cannot keep up, I will myself ask to be replaced. I heavily dislike playing to prod-dodge.

I have some comprehensive "questions" regarding Day 1. As far as I get it:

1) zakk voted MoI and the so-called "N cult" (lol) jumped out of the shadows (as well as Firebringer and Gamma Emerald) and turned his single vote into a wagon. zakk and MoI seemed to have some past mafia rivalry going on.

2) Around 3250 and onwards there was a Narna wagon that seemed to go strong opposite the MoI wagon. It was then onwards that you begun to start being in a hurry to lynch because the day would end. It resulted in a MoI lynch with many players on the Narna wagon compromising because the folks over at the MoI one wouldn't, also because there were a lot voting third party.

3) Out of the "N cult" members, Narna is now under the most scrutiny because:

a) She was the counterwagon to MoI's wagon.
b) Her reasons for voting MoI seemed shaky and her vote seemed opportunistic because she scumread MoI out of the blue.

Is the above generally correct and complete or have I missed something?

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Magna is a he.

My apologies Magna.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Magna is a he.

My apologies Magna.

I mean Narna.

Apologies again.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

1) Most of those players had started a wagon on Magna way earlier in the game, but it's formation is a little suspicious as Mcmenno was at L-1 before the 2nd Magna wagon.

Ok, I am gonna see which players specifically did so.

b) Shaky is one thing, but I vanity vote MoI before the Mcmenno and my 2nd wagon took off. I've covered my reads progression on MoI too many times, but I feel that it should at least be known that I was scumreading him through my interactions with him before the 2nd wagon on him takes off.

Hmm? Why do you try to explain yourself? I didn't accuse you, as I am pretty much still in the neutral/gathering info phase right now.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

I think Andrius claimed to have vigged Narna, and Narna is not dead.

How exactly is this related to whether Narna is or isn't scum? Even more so since this is a bastard game.

Hey, take it where you can get it Nos. It's the only way you're mislynching today. McMenno is scum. Narna isn't. There hasn't been a single reason for Narna scum and a litany for McMenno. The only reason McMenno isn't in a pine box is because Narna and Nahdia have been discredited to the point where no one wants to be on a wagon with them. That's a dumb approach for a multitude of reasons.

So, we've reached the point where people have dug in and ceased to talk to each other or even rationally look at evidence. If you have to flip Narnia on Day 2 and then scum McMenno on Day 3, after I die. Go ahead, but don't act like I didn't call it.

This is suprisingly sensible for this game.

As far as I'm concerned, we can start at Shiro and work our way backwards with those who were on the MoI lynch. We'll get scum with the first shot and find more scum, sooner than later without looking anywhere else.

What if Shiro doesn't flip scum? Where would we go from there?

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

What if Shiro doesn't flip scum? Where would we go from there?

Welcome, Giovanni!

Next up would be Leonshade progressing as I suggested, then SirCakez, etc...

(12)

MagnaofIllusion -- zakk, Nahdia, Not Chara, Narna, Firebringer, Maxous, Creature, Gamma Emerald, Nosferatu, SirCakez, Leonshade, Shiro

I don't think we should necessarily lynch in that order, but we could start considering in that order until we can agree on someone to lynch from that wagon. I'm waiting on Shiro to answer the question I just asked her. I'll practice what I preach when she does and I'll present why we should be lynching her instead of what we're after now.

Then, wouldn't be better if we lynched McMenno?

If he flips scum, then the Three N-usketeers, as well as Firebringer iirc, generally the people who left the McMenno wagon during Day 1 and were the first to join the MoI wagon are more scum worthy than those who claim to have joined it because of time running out.

If he flips town, then those who joined it later are more scum worthy as they took advantage of the supposed ending of day in order to lynch a townie without raising as much suspicion as this kind of action would normally do.

Pedit:

What Titus said about Narna is a lie. There have been reasons given. Here's the biggest reason, Narna is scum because Pepto was scum. zakk was killed because he knew it too.

I just meant that it seemed sensitive, not that it could or couldn't be manufactured.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

I am seriously at a loss...

So, basically, this day has reached a point where most participants are so sure they are right that they will not even dare discuss the possibility of being wrong. The downtime didn't help either.

VOTE: McMenno

This is an L-2 vote.

What the game lacks right now is information and he is the most informative lynch choice we have. We are so lost in details right now, it isn't even funny.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

What the game lacks right now is information and he is the most informative lynch choice we have.

why.

If Narna flips scum, then hooray, we got scum. We can work from there.

If Narna flips town, then what? This is an honest question, as I can't find how a Narna townflip would benefit Town as a whole.

If McMenno flips scum, then tomorrow we will be able to form more solid opinions against the N clan (as well as the Gamma Emerald slot and possibly Firebringer).

If McMenno flips town, then we can also start suspeting the tail of the MoI wagon, starting with Shiro.


Either way, McMenno's presence is too distracting. No matter his alignment, he is used as a "scapegoat" easy wagon right now. If he is still alive tomorrow, no matter his alignment, he will still be the "easy" distracting wagon.

My read on him is 60/40 in favor of being scum. Narna at least has tried justifying his MoI vote change while McMenno has done nothing of value during Day 2. No, I don't feel completely comfortable with not lynching Narna, mainly because he hasn't done anything after justifying his Day 1 actions during Day 2. Both of them have done no actual scumhunting during Day 2, while being in a great position to do so. Narna has tried to justify, McMenno literally is "lynch Narna, lel" and nothing more.

With all that said, I think McMenno is actually the "mid risk - mid reward" lynch option while Narna is more of a "high risk - high reward" one. McMenno's lynch and flip will benefit Town in general no matter which side he flips, while Narna's will help Town more than McMenno's only if he is scum.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

how far are you with your catchup

As far as I am willing to go right now.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Cool, I guess.

I don't care.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

If Narna flips scum, then hooray, we got scum. We can work from there.

If Narna flips town, then what? This is an honest question, as I can't find how a Narna townflip would benefit Town as a whole.

If McMenno flips scum, then tomorrow we will be able to form more solid opinions against the N clan (as well as the Gamma Emerald slot and possibly Firebringer).

If McMenno flips town, then we can also start suspeting the tail of the MoI wagon, starting with Shiro.

This whole thing is pretty terrible.
Why wait to suspect the tail of Magnas wagon? DO IT NOW.

This whole thing is biased against Narnascum.

You could have just said I'm biased and saved me some time.

You townread Narnia and Scumread Menno, yes?
Or at least you're going to null Menno because that less suspicious.

I am slightly scumreading both Narna and McMenno. If I townread Narna, I wouldn't have a problem saying so. If I nullread McMenno, I wouldn't have a problem saying so. I simply said that I prefer a McMenno lynch to a Narna lynch right now.

Also why the TAIL of the Magna wagon.
Why persecute the people who were just going for a lunch at deadline?
They are the low hanging fruit. And sure, there might be scum in there.

Yeah, why would McMenno flipping town mean there's scum at the tail end of the Magna wagon? Giovanni seems to be aping SlySly's logic without admitting that he's doing so.

Basically, my line of thought is this:

Let's assume that both McMenno and MagnaofIllusion are Town (MoI is confirmed). If the N Clan is mostly scum (and couple of other who migrated from the McMenno to the MoI wagon) it doesn't make sense for them to shift from a Townie wagon to another Townie wagon just to save Narna and on top of that, nightkill zakk, who led the second wagon, because it singles them out way too much.

So, if McMenno flips Town, I would primarily shift my attention to the tail of the MoI wagon because I consider lynching someone due to time is a legimate way for scum to lynch a townie without arousing much suspicion, especially a good player like MoI.

If McMenno is scum, then the aforementioned trick would help the supposed scum team get two scum off the noose (Narna and McMenno), therefore worthing the risk.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Yeah, okay.

VOTE: Narna

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Ok, what the fuck? I come to post and I find myself in front of the Apocalypse.


I understand that I am scumread and rightly so, so reading the last few pages before the Leonshade shenanigan, I will try to defend myself.

If I was scum that had replaced into the generally townread House slot, I wouldn't have a reason to even go near the McMenno wagon or post polarizing theories regarding flips. Instead, I would had voted Narna like all the cool kids did at the time and generally I would not stick out as much I did.

In games I usually have a low post count with a high word count per post (I like textwalling). If I was scum, I would actually textwall based on theories my mafia buddies would help me to develop during the night I replaced in. I know that Creature (and possibly SirCakez) know how I play and I would do anything possible to play as similarly as I did in the previous games.

Also, regarding Creature:

Maxous, Giovanni and Almost50 are my top preferences.

This is the second time Creature says he wants to lynch Maxous and I. My objection here is that I am a weak role who targeted Maxous at night, so, barring shenanigans, I should have been dead if he was scum.

PEDIT

VOTE: Maxous

Disingenuous my ass.

Interesting.

VOTE: LeonShade

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Do people believe Giovanni here?

This is the second time Creature says he wants to lynch Maxous and I. My objection here is that I am a weak role who targeted Maxous at night, so, barring shenanigans, I should have been dead if he was scum.

What would lying here achieve exactly?

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Do people believe Giovanni here?

This is the second time Creature says he wants to lynch Maxous and I. My objection here is that I am a weak role who targeted Maxous at night, so, barring shenanigans, I should have been dead if he was scum.

Another cop-esque claim? I could only buy this if Shiro was scum, and even then it's iffy.
Giovanni since you already claimed what's your other result?

I have no other result. My ability is even-night (Night 2, Night 4 etc) only.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Do people believe Giovanni here?

This is the second time Creature says he wants to lynch Maxous and I. My objection here is that I am a weak role who targeted Maxous at night, so, barring shenanigans, I should have been dead if he was scum.

Another cop-esque claim? I could only buy this if Shiro was scum, and even then it's iffy.
Giovanni since you already claimed what's your other result?

I have no other result. My ability is even-night (Night 2, Night 4 etc) only.

I am also not a cop. An investigative, but not a cop.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

<.<
Weak is basically a Cop

If you use "cop" to generally describe an investigative role, then yes, I am cop-like.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

<.<
Weak is basically a Cop

If you use "cop" to generally describe an investigative role, then yes, I am cop-like.

You get told whether your target is scum or not (indirectly)
That's basically a cop, no?

Yes, that is basically a cop, however, I am not a cop. I was reluctant to explain, but my role is so weak that it doesn't really matter. I am an even-night weak follower. Weak as in, if my target is not Town, I die.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Do people believe Giovanni here?

This is the second time Creature says he wants to lynch Maxous and I. My objection here is that I am a weak role who targeted Maxous at night, so, barring shenanigans, I should have been dead if he was scum.

Another cop-esque claim? I could only buy this if Shiro was scum, and even then it's iffy.
Giovanni since you already claimed what's your other result?

I have no other result. My ability is even-night (Night 2, Night 4 etc) only.

I went back and read your posts.

Can you consider yourself an average or above player?

I consider myself just an average player with his ups and downs. Here, I am definitely on my downs. I seriously cannot get a grip on the game.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

and Firebringer was House so that's ok for now too.

A correction, just as I was pediting while writing. I am the House slot, not Firebringer.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

If you are reffering to Not Chara's question, then yes I know. I am rereading Days 2 and 3 before I answer.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

People I would not lynch:

SirCakez
Maxous
PeregrineV
Ankamius
SlySly
SnarkySnowman
Andrius
massive

Possibly Nahdia, as well.

Neutral on Firebringer and Almost50.
-----

I am divided on Leonshade.

On one hand, the more I think about it, the more it doesn't make sense for him to be scum. He was generally Townread before his "you shall not pass" moment and it doesn't make sense for as powerful a tool as a supposed scum Governor to get himself out in the open as blatantly as he did, as early as Day 3.

On the other hand, his move was horrendous. It screwed Town completely just when we thought that there will finally be a sprinkle of much needed unity and if he was Town he should had let the lynch go through on this basis alone. If he is scum, his timing, while not orthodox, is MVP worthy.

Flavor claim doesn't help either. Asgore is neutral storywise but a possible antagonist.

-----

I am lost on Narna, but since a lot of my townreads scumread her, I will do so, I guess. I also like to feed on grass during spring, especially in semi-mountainous areas.

-----

Titus and Not Chara, I generally like both. They both seem to try to sort out the mess. I like Titus slightly more; her thought proccess seems clearer. I will join the wagon of either of them if nothing changes today, however.

-----

Creature, I do not like. He seems disinterested at the very least, even with his usually scattered posting style. I consider him a good player and I expected him to be more involved, and he simply isn't.

-----

Shiro, as well. He is lurking, but he seems to be around in order to do something grandiose and then disappear again. He did so when he hammered MoI and afterwards when he unvoted Narna.

VOTE: Shiro

For a fake lurker is never late or is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to. Miller claim is dubious, as well. As far as I get it (I haven't played Undertale) while reading the wiki, flavor wise Asriel could turn into Flowey, or Flowey could turn into Asriel while not changing alignments (instead of being nightkilled, he isn't and he gains a different set of skills). This would explain the possibly low number of scum, as we have trouble identifying who could be scum from a flavor standpoint.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Skullduggery, I am V/LA until Friday's end.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Or will lynch scum Giovanni. That will at least give us a "town Maxous" if he is to believed.

Let me say this again: I replaced during a Night Phase. If I was replacing into a scum slot in a game where one player has recently played with me (Creature) and knows my playstyle and another one might remember it (SirCakez) (in addition to anyone seeing my previous games and noticing that I play differently), I would have actually talked with my scumbuddies and went full analytical as I usually do with the help of faux scumhunting conclusions or whatever. We didn't have a shortage of suspects back then anyway, and we don't have one now. I wouldn't have touched the McMenno wagon and I certainly wouldn't risk my position spouting theories the way I did, especially since I happened to replace in a slot that was Townread by a majority of the players prior to me joining the game.

I think you overplay the whole bread-crumbing issue. I have one result (Maxous), who was chosen because I felt like it was the safest choice, as this is the first time I play a weak role and I was afraid of hitting non-town. Also, with the way I played during Day 2, there was a chance that I would be lynched eventually, so I figured that it would be unlikely for me to be nightkilled by scum; it would be unlikely to be nightkilled by town-aligned vigs as well, as they would had more prime candidates than me during the Night Phase.

In fact, I wouldn't had roleclaimed if the following quotes from Creature and Narna didn't happen:

We're not seriously switching to LaL after three days of apathy. Town is boned.

Kill Maxous, Giovanni, and Titus.

Maxous and Giovanni first. Maybe Almost50 too.

Maxous, Giovanni and Almost50 are my top preferences.

VOTE: Maxous

Disingenuous my ass.

First two posts are before the govern, the latter two are after.

Three posts after the last Narna quote, I kind of roleclaimed and voted Leonshade. Back then, right after the govern, I believed what Maxous said about Narna and Leonshade being scumbuddies (as opposed to now that I stated that I have no idea), hence my vote. When I saw the Narna vote, I also thought that Creature might be their scumbuddy and that they will attempt to lynch Maxous.

In any case, Creature was (and is) playing differently than what I know of Town!Creature, and seeing him stating twice that he is willing to lynch Maxous and I was definitely strange. Narna's two posts were strange in a similar fashion, as well, but it doesn't make sense if he didn't know that he will be governed. In retrospect, even the roleclaim's timing was wrong, as I had to see if Creature would join Narna first, before claiming.

Anyway, I have played terribly this game. If you are so sure that I am scum and I have to be lynched before any of the other possible wagons today, then go for it.

----------------

Something else. I totally misunderstood what "Miller" is when I was explaining my Shiro vote. For some reason, it had stuck to my brain that "miller" is someone that turns mafia if he/she is nightkilled.

Even so:

Nah, I am.not. Just really disinterested. Do you honestly think scum me would claim Rolecop Miller? Psh come on.

I don't get why a mafia rolecop wouldn't or couldn't claim miller rolecop. Seems plausible, especially since it kind of leaves some space to said supposed mafia rolecop to do eyebrow-raising things, like hammering MoI or getting out of Narna's wagon.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

You replaced in for night1.
If you had a weak role, in which you would have died had you hidden behind them, why not make it so that reading your ISO after your death, we would see who you hid behind?
You had all day2 to post and let us know your suspect?

Let's get this over again:

-Maxous was not a suspect but an "easy" choice because I had no idea who to target from the more controversial ones. I expected McMenno to flip scum and then take my pick.
-Given the gamestate it would be highly improbable that I would be nightkilled by either faction (town vig or scum) and given my choice it would be improbable to suicide from the weak ability.
-This is the first time I am playing a weak role, so yes not crumbing and not choosing someone of higher profile was a mistake.

In any case, Creature was (and is) playing differently than what I know of Town!Creature

My townplay changes through the games depending on how motivated I am and how easy I am getting reads.

But my scumplay is likely always the same, maybe take a look there?

(Sigh)

I was going to say "fair point" but your scumplay being always the same means very little. You are a competent player. You can manipulate your meta. It is extremely easy to feign disinterest in this game. Why then follow your usual "scum meta" as scum where someone could easily spot it, point it out and lynch you?

And on the 200+ pages of slog to struggle through. Keep in mind the House and Gamma slots are guilty of flooding this game with nonsense and blindly agreeing with people, only to immediately 180ing on things (the latter being in Gamma's case). Neither have actually lynched shit as well.

or tried to lynch, especially post replacement.

Sure, lynch, but who? The game's a mess and for every single potential lynch candidate there is a "but" hanging above their heads. There exists your point of view, but also exists a point of view that is absolutely

convinced

to have you lynched. This is true for almost all lynch propositions today after the govern (Not Chara, Leonshade, Shiro, Creature, Giovanni, Almost50).

Then you see that 4 Townies are already dead and, whether you are town or scum (it doesn't matter) you hesitate to push for a lynch in fear of lynching another townie and subsequently getting yourself lynched by the torch-and-pitchfork logic this town has.

----------

So, right now, Leonshade 6, Creature 3

Meh. Narna is lynched tomorrow anyway, so a Leonshade lynch right now is moot. The timing of his govern was terrible, but this in and of itself isn't scummy, especially since it doesn't make sense for a townread scum to save his buddy who is gonna get lynched anyway.

VOTE: Creature

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Sure, lynch, but who? The game's a mess and for every single potential lynch candidate there is a "but" hanging above their heads. There exists your point of view, but also exists a point of view that is absolutely

convinced

to have you lynched. This is true for almost all lynch propositions today after the govern (Not Chara, Leonshade, Shiro, Creature, Giovanni, Almost50).

Then you see that 4 Townies are already dead and, whether you are town or scum (it doesn't matter) you hesitate to push for a lynch in fear of lynching another townie and subsequently getting yourself lynched by the torch-and-pitchfork logic this town has.

Crazy idea, terrible pitch, think for yourself.

I'm not sure if you're referring to me specifically with that "whether you are town or scum" sentence or the entire game. Because if it's the latter, yeah the playerbase is really basic with their scumhunting.

Think for yourself, sure. But you are not playing by yourself. Thinking in a vacuum is not good. When there are so many conflicting opinions, you cannot help but question your reads.

I obviously speak generally.

You can manipulate your meta.

If you think I can, why do you think I'm not playing like Newbie 1743?

In 1743 we were allergic to lurkers. Here, we are not.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

massive is considered a clear to Narna while Snarky and Shiro lurking is normal.

Is this supposed to be an answer/comment to something I said, or just a general observation?

Also, you should also admit you're playing differently here.

I have already done so myself several times.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Is this supposed to be an answer/comment to something I said, or just a general observation?

Supposed to justify why so far we haven't strongarmed some lurker lynches.

Fair enough.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Meh, I don't really think that nolynch will be beneficial for town. Yet, Leon is a such a horrible lynch candidate...

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Giovanni

Mind saying who did you follow (they should be conftown for you)?

Night 3 is not an even night, so nobody.

I will return later with commentary.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Andrius, why the unvote?

Back from a 36 hour shift. Quick post, because I am really tired.

The SlySly nightkill screwed my brains even worse than this game already has. At first, I thought it was slightly random, but then it occured to me how it perplexed the game even worse. A scum team in which Narna is a member could go aggressive and lynch one of the three biggest advocates for his lynch (SirCakez, Andrius, SlySly) in order to weaken the imminent wagon against him given the Leonshade flip or a scum team in which Narna is not a member could kill SlySly so that people could think Narna is scum and lynch him. Both possible explanations have problems and I cannot think of any other serious reason for scum to nightkill SlySly.


I am not convinced on the Narna case. I want to be convinced because I feel like the slot carries way too much luggage to survive right now, but "twilight trolling" is not a valid answer against his twilight behavior and the LeonShade lynch was... logistically bad. Depending on the number of scum (4, 5, 6 (unlikely but you never know), we have 4, 3, 2 days left provided we don't find scum and a vig doesn't hit town.

If Narna is lynched and flips town, someone who was actively pushing for Leon and Narna lynch will hang.

Well, not outright hang right away, but I will/would definitely begin looking at alternative theories. This Town is divided and possibly conquered. I am beginning to think that scum don't play as monolithically as we think they do. In order to divide and conquer, one can either support one side overwhelmingly against the other, or have agents planted on both sides to stir hostility against the other. If Narna flips Town, then that will finally confirm that all Day 1/Day 2 wagons (MagnaOfIllusion, McMenno, Narna) are Town.

Comments on the rest of the day during the evening. They require reading and I have to sleep.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Fidel Castro had to die for SnarkySnowman to be replaced.

Snowman should have been replaced a long time ago or he should have just replaced out.
I mean, I'm no better than he is right now and I'm considering leaving because my heart isn't here and I'm really not doing anything for you guys.

I'm coming around to lynching Titus but I'll probably Maedhros this one and stand aside.

I should probably mention that she knows my role. So if she's scum the entire scumteam knows my role.

I've been calling people out for not doing things and here I am.
But for some of the others, this is part of a bigger towntell of mine.

Honestly, don't even compare the way you have played this game with the way Snarky played. At least you have a thought process that we can follow, no matter how erratic it might be sometimes. Snarky basically just came, spouted a couple of four word sentences and then vanished into the night. Even SlySly, the quintessential torch and pitchfork townie this game, didn't reach Snarky levels.

I hope his replacement brings a fresh view on things, unlike our two most recent replacements...

I noticed that Nosferatu also was heavily suspecting the Almost50 slot, but zakk was very adamant about that slot being 100% town, so that track is out the window along with my idea that the reason people are dying is because of their reads.

Now my working theory is that people who are proving themselves stubborn and potentially difficult to manipulate in the future are the ones dying.

That would mean that the 'town leaders' are either being manipulated or are scum themselves.

Speaking of which, the people that spearheaded the Leonshade wagon need to be flipped ASAP.

Yeah, you are probably right about the reads bit. zakk and Nosferatu were also weird choices. zakk would definitely be "stubborn" if he lived past Day 1. Also a question. Who would zakk focus towards to if he lived past Day 1? I would guess that it would have been the rest of the MoI wagon, but I haven't played with him before, so I am far from sure.

Since you mentioned it, who would the "Town Leaders" be? SirCakez? Titus? Who else?

Damn, but I already had to lynch Leon (a strong townread for me) because town was pretty divided.

Hmm? How is this related to what I said? And why "damn"? I don't understand neither the tone or the context of your post.

-----------

I am ok with lynching Titus. I am ok with lynching Shiro. If Leonshade was alive I would be ok with lynching Narna because of the slot's past. I will wait a bit before I cast my vote. Unless the short daytime is extended, I don't think the snarky slot will have enough time to fully catch up, but you never know.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

BigYoshiFun welcome to our game.

To add to Andrius's list:

There is also my even-night weak follower claim. I am the House/Yume slot.

Shiro has claimed miller in addition to cop/investigative.

Ankamius has claimed miller.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

BigYoshiFun welcome to our game.

Ankamius has claimed miller.

More precisely, the fact that he becomes a miller after some condition is fulfilled and that it has been fulfilled.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Let's get on with it.

VOTE: Shiro

L-2

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Wait, wait, let's discuss what has just transpired. Lay down the pitchforks.

Why in hell would the scumteam kill Titus? It makes absolutely no. fucking. sense. She was been scumread and she would have been a prime lynch candidate even today. She could easily be the wagon opposite supposed scum!Narna.

Why Asriel Dreemurr is not attached to a scum role? Then who can be scum, flavor wise? Asgore I can get being Town, but why Asriel is not scum?

Titus was one of my neighbors.
That should explain a lot.

Anyone posting without a vote on Narna is claiming they are her scumbuddy.

How the fact that Titus was your neighbor is in any way relevant? How could scum know that she is your neighbor?

More importantly, I targeted Narna last night and got an investigative action result. Also, I am not dead.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Giovanni not dying after targeting Narna makes sense IF THEYRE BOTH SCUM.
He is trying to get us to step back from the NARNA LYNCH.

This makes absolutely no sense. Why would I come forth with such a ridiculous claim on the day Narna is most likely lynched? As Not chara said, I am out of the lynchpool partly because of my weak claim. Why would I ruin it to save a partner that is eventually doomed?

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Giovanni not dying after targeting Narna makes sense IF THEYRE BOTH SCUM.
He is trying to get us to step back from the NARNA LYNCH.

This makes absolutely no sense. Why would I come forth with such a ridiculous claim on the day Narna is most likely lynched? As Not chara said, I am out of the lynchpool partly because of my weak claim. Why would I ruin it to save a partner that is eventually doomed?

Well.
If Narna flips scum you and I will have words.

This is your answer? Yeah, this is fully a pitchfork-and-torch era we are currently through. Since the participants of this game left logic behind at some previous timestamp, I will do the same.

VOTE: Narna

This is an L-3 vote.

Let's get the big bad boogeyman out of the way. If Narna flips scum, then come at me. If not, then we will definitely have words, although of a different context.

Either way, if this isn't a troll no scum setup, Town is doomed.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Giovanni not dying after targeting Narna makes sense IF THEYRE BOTH SCUM.
He is trying to get us to step back from the NARNA LYNCH.

This makes absolutely no sense. Why would I come forth with such a ridiculous claim on the day Narna is most likely lynched? As Not chara said, I am out of the lynchpool partly because of my weak claim. Why would I ruin it to save a partner that is eventually doomed?

Well.
If Narna flips scum you and I will have words.

This is your answer? Yeah, this is fully a pitchfork-and-torch era we are currently through. Since the participants of this game left logic behind at some previous timestamp, I will do the same.

VOTE: Narna

This is an L-3 vote.

Let's get the big bad boogeyman out of the way. If Narna flips scum, then come at me. If not, then we will definitely have words, although of a different context.

Either way, if this isn't a troll no scum setup, Town is doomed.

For what purpose are you voting your innocent?

Because there is literally nothing else left to do. You are town, but you are also a giant boogeyman at this point. I risked targeting you in order to become useful for Town since I have terribly misplayed my role. I wanted to present a result on someone more relevant than Maxous, who was a "safe" choice, and ignite conversation. But see how the players are playing here. Logic and discussion is out of the question.

It is more logical to start speculating about a hypothetical bus driver targeting someone who had no business targeting you (or any "hot" target, based on the previous "safe" choice of Maxous), rather than admitting that they might be wrong.

It is more logical for me to be your scumbuddy trying to save you all of a sudden from your 90% assured lynch, even if it doesn't make sense in the slightest, rather than admitting that they might be wrong.

I am not doubting neither Maxous's result or yours. I believe that both of you are Town. But if this isn't a troll no scum game, then town needs to get its shit together and you are just the last thread linking the game to the bullshit theories of the past, in addition to the whole situation reeking of confirmation bias with you at the epicenter.

My vote was a knee-jerk reaction to the whole tone of this day, but honestly, I am tired seeing the same "LETS LYNCH NARNA!!111!1!1" shit day over day. If your spot doesn't get out of the way, Town is 100% doomed, while on the contrary, there is a chance, however slim, that town will be able to focus on the game.

Giovanni, can you clarify exactly how your weak mechanic works? Does it say you'll die if you visit anyone who is [mafia/scum/not-town]?

I will die if I target anyone not-town aligned.

PEDIT:
@Firebringer, are you kidding me?

You just remembered that you had forgotten that you had received the power to dayvig someone since DAY 2?

Christ's sake... FROM DAY FUCKING TWO.

HOW MUCH SHIT WE COULD HAVE AVOIDED, JUST HOW MUCH?

THIS GAME, I WILL NEVER FIGURE OUT.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

I targeted Narna, getting an "investigative action" result.

Narna claimed to have investigated someone that same night.

Unless the bus driver switched me to another investigative role that targets, there were not switching shenanigans present.

This is what Nahdia is trying to say, I think.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

But you wouldn't be affected if the target was only Shiro and a mafioso on the night Narna investigated Shiro. Narna still investigates the new target.

We're not talking about Giovanni we're talking about Shiro.

Narna's check on Shiro can't have been driven because they investigate and get a name as well.

I apologize.

I got things messed up.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

UNVOTE:

No more Narna wagon now.

pedit: Giovanni voting Narna and saying such things as "if Narna flips scum", are what make me think both being scum is a good possibility. that and Giovanni only getting a pass because of his Weak claim.

When did I say that? On 6322 I actually explained my vote as best as I could. I don't doubt Narna is Town.

If you are refering to 6234, then you took it out of context. The "If narna flips scum" line was not me doubting Narna's alignment. It was a response to Andrius adamantly believing that Narna is scum.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

UNVOTE:

No more Narna wagon now.

Meaning that, hopefully, no more pitchfork behaviour.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Guys, Giovanni (a weak role who is also an investigative who gets a report, thus eliminating possibility of bus drivers) has an innocent on Narna. If you're going to vote Narna, provide an explanation for how this isn't valid.

You seemed to have done the work- did Giovanni validate Narna's target last night? I think he claimed weak follower, so wondering if he confirmed or in any way acknowledged Narna's result on you prior to or after the claimed result.

I caught Narna performing an investigative action last night.

N1 - Shiro
N2 - Nahdia
N3 - Not Chara
N4 - Creature.

For disclosure

Hold on a minute. Maxous has claimed to have targeted someone Night 2. However, when I targeted him Night 2, I received a message vaguely saying that either he didn't perform any action or my action didn't go through (I asked for clarification and I was said that it was vague on purpose).

Nahdia claimed to have been blocked Night 2, so it is safer to assume that something happened to me during Night 2.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Well, I didn't claim to have been blocked. I blocked massive, who claimed his action went through.

lmao i can't believe this hadn't occurred to me sooner.

I jailed massive last night. Narna is lying or I was blocked again, I guess.

I intrepreted this as you claiming to have been blocked.

And maxous said he targeted you during Night 2 and he is supposedly a roleblocker.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Giovanni: ask Skullduggery about your possibly being roleblocked. if you're an investigative, you should know whether you were roleblocked, or if your target simply did nothing.

Again, I asked Skullduggery about the result I got when I targeted Maxous on night 2 the moment I received the result and I was replied that the answer I received is intentionaly not clear. It could mean that he didn't target anyone or that my action failed.

Since Maxous (who claims roleblocker) claimed to have targeted Nahdia Night 2, and massive (the person who Nahdia claimed to have jailed during Night 2) claimed that he performed his night action normally despite Nahdia targetting him, then it is more logical that someone targeted me that made me lose my target (re-targeting, blocking, I don't know).

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Maxous, no, for reasons stated.

As I said, I got an investigative result on Narna. and I believe that it is genuine:

-We haven't had hints of a re-directing role or a bus driver, yet. Also, I would have to be redirected to someone who was performing as well an investigative action, as to appear that Narna is performing an investigative action.

-I didn't breadcrumb at all who I would target. Scum had no way of knowing that I would go balls to the wall and target the player most likely to get lynched. I think that since I played it safe on Night 2, there was no reason not to play it safe again.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

The specific reason I doubt Giovanni is a town follower is because Giovanni would have been able to confirm the type of action Maxous took along with Narna. Combining that with Giovanni's opportunistic vote on Narna when they already had the innocent means something was up. Town PRs never vote their innocents.

So, if I am scum along with Maxous, why didn't I fake confirm the type of action he did? It is not hard to not say anything or, since Maxous had already said who he targeted when I said that something was up when I received his result, to confirm his type of action?

Narna's vote was not opportunistic, although it may seemed like it. It was just me saying "lay down the pitcforks and enough with the bullshit".

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

The specific reason I doubt Giovanni is a town follower is because Giovanni would have been able to confirm the type of action Maxous took along with Narna. Combining that with Giovanni's opportunistic vote on Narna when they already had the innocent means something was up. Town PRs never vote their innocents.

So, if I am scum along with Maxous, why didn't I fake confirm the type of action he did? It is not hard to not say anything or, since Maxous had already said who he targeted when I said that something was up when I received his result, to confirm his type of action?

Narna's vote was not opportunistic, although it may seemed like it. It was just me saying "lay down the pitcforks and enough with the bullshit".

I am saying your vote is opportunistic.

Yes. Two town roleblocks in a game of this size yet no one hardly ever claimed it. Hell if you actually saw him perform a roleblocker action I would have expected you to scumread Nahdia hard.

I don't get it.

You are saying that I am scum with Maxous.

1) If I am a scum follower, why would I target my scumbuddy in the first place? Why would I claim my role? Why would I say that I saw my scumbuddy perform an interfering (that is how is called) action?

2) Since I was Townread and my weak claim was generally believed (and Maxous was further Townread because of it), why come out, after Maxous said who targeted during Day 2, and say that my action targetting him seems to have failed somehow?

-------

Regarding the vote, I will explain it one more time.

Narna has basically become synonymous with the Antichrist before you three replaced. Every Day Phase since Day 2 started with Narna and was about Narna. All logic was paused in order to lynch Narna. All meaningful discussion was paused because of Narna's existence in the game. Leonshade was lynched because of Narna. The game would not move on unless some people replaced (which didn't seem the case) or the boogeyman was out of the way. I was tired of the same mantra being repeated every single day.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Narna has basically become synonymous with the Antichrist before you three replaced. Every Day Phase since Day 2 started with Narna and was about Narna. All logic was paused in order to lynch Narna. All meaningful discussion was paused because of Narna's existence in the game. Leonshade was lynched because of Narna. The game would not move on unless some people replaced (which didn't seem the case) or the boogeyman was out of the way. I was tired of the same mantra being repeated every single day.

you telling me 3 days of pitchfrks weren't enough to lynch narna?

sounds like scum bulshit stalling the wagon

y/n?

Narna wasn't lynched Day 2 because McMenno was equally scumread.

If it wasn't for the governor, Narna would have been definitely lynched Day 3.

People scumread Shiro equally to Narna and after the govern there were hints that he might be town.

1) The premise is bad. If you are scum the entire thing is poisonous and you are not required to have actually targeted your buddy or have told the truth about any of it. I think the claim is engineered to give Maxous a bit of legitimacy.

Has no one seriously questioned why no roleblock claims have come up with two claimed blockers in a huge game like this?

2) Because either A) Maxous is ascetic or B) again you are lying to give Maxous Credibility. Weak is a rare fake claim most people don't question that and it lets you "confirm" your buddy.

Maxous already had credibility. He was generally townread. He didn't need MORE credibility with a scheme as intricate as you describe. I was not exactly townread after my Day 2 remarks and fake-claiming weak was dangerous, anyway. So, why would I risk fake-claiming weak while saying that I targeted my generally towread scumbuddy?

The answer I receive is worded in a way that is not clear if I got blocked, my target didn't anything or something else happened.

Your case ofme being Maxous's scumbuddy is far fetched and doesn't make sense. You are just trying way too hard to give credibility to your scumlist.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Obligatory "told you so" sentence about the vagueness of results given by Skullduggery.

I received answer from the mod regarding the interaction between weak and ascetic, not that it matters anymore. In case a weak targets an Ascetic with his own ability, a weak will not die.

I don't know. Something that was always in the back of my head was: Maybe MathBlade will come up with a bunch of these theories and appear helpful to the town but utterly confuse the town and slip under the radar with all of his towncred for his posts. Nothing I'm willing to fight for, just superstition.

I heavily dislike his over-aggressive and overconfident playstyle, however,

it doesn't make sense

for him to be scum. His behaviour has been pitchforky, but unlike the pirchforkers we had pre-replacement, he tries to rally Town and make them play using his pitchforkiness, unlike, say, Andrius or SlySly. Whether his method has bore fruit or not is up to debate, but truth remains his intentions seem "pure" and, more importantly, that there is zero incentive for scum to replace in and act as a Town Leader all of a sudden in a "lost" Town. If anything, I would expect scum replacing in to act more like Accountant or Pine, semi-lurking or pretending to read the thread.

He clearly is "paranoid" in some of his reads, but if you were a townie replacing in a gamestate such as this, you would be "pararnoid" as well.

The reason I lean Gio's the liar too is because he voted his innocent read. That should never happen.

Let's get over this one more time. So, I claim that someone is innocent. Then I vote for him. You said that this is a scummy move. You didn't say what I would gain from this move as scum.

What I would gain from claiming that Narna is innocent, on the day that he would most likely be lynched, then vote for him? Why claim an innocent on Narna and then vote, instead of simply voting without singling myself out?

1) The premise is bad. If you are scum the entire thing is poisonous and you are not required to have actually targeted your buddy or have told the truth about any of it. I think the claim is engineered to give Maxous a bit of legitimacy.

So, since I am scum with Maxous, why would I admit that my result on him is shaky? I was believed as weak having cleared him, and since he has claimed roleblocker, I could confirm that the type of action I supposedly caught him doing is interferring (the corresponding action to his claim) and be done with it.

---------

So, according to you, my scum plan was the following:

1) I claimed weak and cleared Maxous, my scumbuddy, with most players believing me.
2) I faked an innocent on the most possible lynch target, announcing my result immediately.
3) Afterwards, I voted for him.
4) I questioned my own result on my scumbuddy openly when he claimed (or fake-claimed) all of his targets.
5) My scumbuddy ended up being a possible lynch candidate with me likely next on the chopping block.

Does this make sense to you?

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Everything past your response to me makes absolutely no sense to me.

@Gio

Care to elaborate then?

Why do my opinion on Mathblade makes sense to you?

Why do you disagree with the rest?

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

1) Yes
2) I am accusing you of faking Maxous at minimum. Narna is a town read of mine. Scum can tell the truth as Town.
3) Yes you voted for your town innocent read. Bad scum.
4) Yes I have done this as scum and it creates a fake aura of authenticity. Questions are not the be all end all. Scum need one or two more mislynches to win. The fact of the matter is you can have a lynch of one or two of your buddies.

Today for scum is about no lynching or lynching town flat out because then they do not have to bus and then just win. That is why I am to borrow your words pitchforky. To expect normal play in a bastard game is suicide. All I see is there is no logical way your results are right. Therefore you are scum.

2) You answered how it is possible for scum to know Narna is town, however you didn't answer my query. Why would I come forth and claim an innocent on Narna?
3) Stop treating me like a moron. Bad scum != suicidal scum.
4) The fact that you have done this as scum doesn't mean that everyone doing it is scum.

So, to summarize, according to you:

1) My results cannot be right.
2) Because of (1) as well as other reasons I am 100% scum.

Why don't you vote for me then? Don't you want to avoid a mislynch and lynch scum? I am 100% scum, more likely than my "scumbuddy" Maxous. At some point you claimed that whether Maxous is scum or not, I am definitely scum. Why "risk" voting Maxous, when 100% scum Giovanni is ripe for lynching?

When I say "makes no sense" it doesn't mean I agree with it, it just means I don't understand what you're saying. I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say in the area I specified. A town PR never votes their innocents; there is no need to talk about what you gain as scum. The mod essentially told you Narna is town, so why are you voting them? What is with all of this elaboration of "what would I gain?"

I already explained why I voted Narna. You say it is a scum move. I asked what I would gain by doing so obvious a scum move.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

It is because some of your sentence and structure is similar to other games like Dragon Age for example.

<.<

It might be better to lynch Giovanni
If he's scum we lynch Narna, if he's town Narna is conftown
If we lynch Narna and he flips town, then we have no idea what Giovanni is

I also agree with this logic. If I am scum, then you got your first red result. If I am town, then my claims are validated and you have more to work with.


@Mathblade, we are not in LyLo. Assuming 5 scum, we are 5/9 split right now. Assuming scum isn't lynched today, town will be 5/7 tomorrow (barring nightvigs or blocks or whatever), which is LyLo under normal circumstances. if there are 4 scum, then town will have two more days etc.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

If a third party is present, I think it is unlikely for scum to be five in number.

If anything, 4/9/1 makes more sense, especially given the fact that despite the large number of investigatives, results are shaky.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Maxous lynch reveals Nahdia.
Gio lynch reveals Narna if Gio town. If Gio scum Narna still anything.

If Gio scum, then you have Maxous scum already, anyway, according to you.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Maxous lynch reveals Nahdia.
Gio lynch reveals Narna if Gio town. If Gio scum Narna still anything.

If Gio scum, then you have Maxous scum already, anyway, according to you.

Why are you talking in third person?

To immitate aesthetically the post I was replying to.

Yes I did but cooler heads prevail. Technically it is more likely Maxous scum but not confirmed. You could be lying about the whole thing.

Hmm? According to your reads, I am scum indepedently of what Maxous will flip. How is Maxous more likely to be scum? Also, don't forget, according to you, I am scum fakeclaiming weak. I assumed that you believe that everything I say is not true.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

With me so far? If you don't understand this part the next will be hella confusing.

...

Go on.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Yeah.

You needed confirmation everytime you posted?

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

You needed confirmation everytime you posted?

This isn't supposed to be passive-aggressive

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Finish your theory and I will comment on the whole. Don't wait for my confirmantion every couple of posts.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Fair enough.

Go on.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Also, for the record, I was the first one to mention that the results received are/might be shaky.

Why do you want to be lynched????

For the same reason that I wouldn't have a problem lynching Narna at the time of my vote taking into account the game-state back then, which is the same reason I had advocated for my lynch as a Townie in a game where I replaced in a very scummy slot;

I belive that Town as a whole > Each individual Townie. If flipping a Townie (myself included) helps the Town to overall gamesolve, then I am ok with it.


Not much discussion is going on. There are no valid counter-theories to Mathblade's, so

VOTE: Maxous

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

I belive that [...]

I hate it when it happens.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

@Skullduggery, I will be V/LA until Thursday.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Apologies for the Prod. I have had heaps of work these past days. Quick comment amd I'll make one more detailed later today.

Creeps is town btw

I'n 95% certain this jester crap by A50 is a bluff.

I agree that the Jester thing is most likely nonsense, I disagree that it is necessarily scum motivated. A50 has given me more the impression of someone trolling because he thinks this game has become uninteresting, rather than that of someone who tries to convince people that he is a Jester because in reality he is scum trying to avoid lynching. It seems needlessly complicated.

----------------

I don't think we can deny the fact that there is another faction in the game after Maxous's lynch amd I cannot understand how it became such a serious point of contention. Skullduggery cannot mislead or outright lie per game rules and I believe that the wingding messages were written by Skullduggery every time Maxous activated an ability. As Nahdia (I think) pointed out, I doubt Maxous would be as dramatic as the tone of some messages imply.

This could also mean that regular scum could be lower in number than we think. I doubt that with 13 players alive we could have 5 scum plus any number of third party. It seems awfully unbalanced.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

well to be fair, we

have

mislynched a lot of town.

this game started with 22 players. 5 scum is definitely a distinct possibility. Giovanni, i don't know what the number of

living

players has to do with the number of possibily remaining scum?

I phrased my sentence incorrectly.

What I meant is that, with 13 players alive, if we assume 5 scum and an unknown number of third party, it seems statistically... unfair for Town. Even if this new faction has only one member, that would be 6 anti-Town to 7 Town. In a non-bastard setup 5 scum would definitely be possible with 22 starting players. However, since the game setup apparently had a planned mechanism that adds another anti-town faction to the mix, it is logical that the initial scum number could be lower in order to balance this out.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

i dont particularly think a massclaim will clear a lot up.

I agree with this. Scum most likely have fake claims fitting their actual role, anyway. It wouldn't help, at all.

How many mods do you know who would include two anti-Town 3P players with similar mechanics in the same game? Cuz from where I stand I can't be neither Town nor Scum with a mechanic like that.

I agree with this, as well. Another third party doesn't make sense. IIRC A50 has claimed some flavor of Supersaint.


VOTE: BigYoshiFan

The way he played during Day 5 was terrible. If it wasn't for Mathblade's mental semi-breakdown this day, he would had my vote far earlier.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

I don't see where Almost50 claimed some flavor of SuperSaint but if he did that is NAI as roles in general are NAI. It is how the player uses them.
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... edirect=no

Yeah, nevermind the supersaint bit. For some reason I was sure that he had claimed or was confirmed Supersaint or a flavor of it.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

I don't see where Almost50 claimed some flavor of SuperSaint but if he did that is NAI as roles in general are NAI. It is how the player uses them.
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... edirect=no

Yeah, nevermind the supersaint bit. For some reason I was sure that he had claimed or was confirmed Supersaint or a flavor of it.

.....This is very oddly specific. This requires explanation.

I was semi-right about the Supersaint stuff. I knew that I had seen somewhere something of the like.

Post 6456 by Nahdia contains a compiled list of claims. Basically, Gamma Emerald, the A50 slot, had hinted at being something similar to Supersaint (or Supersaint). It would also explain why A50 is ok with getting lynched.

I haven't decided yet who I will target, but I think the problem isn't so much whether I die or not, but whether someone tampers with my result or not. If scum don't know who I will target there is less chance I am messed with.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

A50 later claimed he's decidedly not Supersaint, or anything that can actually kill anyone.

Still, whoever does kill (or hammer) A50 is probably going to be annoyed.

Ah, ok. I had missed that.


@MathBlade, I will ask about these specific situations and then I will think about it. I still haven't decided, anyway.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

I'll be back in full tommorw- but is there a list of results for night5?

Nahdia targeted nobody.
Narna targeted Accounant.
Someone gave a widget to Mathblade.
Mathblade joined the Neighborhood.

I think that's it, overall.

BYF, can you be a little more specific? You might as well full claim at this point.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Have we ruled out the possibility of Maxous doing the nightkills? It would explain a lot of things, including but not limited to:

1) The fact that we have hit only Townies thus far.

2) The fact that the nightkills seemed random.

When the mass replacing happened, Skullduggery said that "there are at least two opposing factions that cannot win together". This is, obviously, a very broad sentence, but it doesn't rule out the possibility of Maxous being the only town-opposing faction up until his death.

What we know about Maxous's role:

1) He claimed to be Ascetic
2) He claimed to be a Roleblocker.
3) He shits a faction upon death (yes, I don't think we can dispute that).
4) He had a selection of game-affecting skills.

This role already seems overpowered for a regular third party. He is a faction-creating ascetic roleblocker that can mess with core functions of the game. Why would a role such as this be considered at all in the setup if it wasn't for the fact that it is the sole adversary to Town? Add to the role's features already described the ability to nightkill and you have literally a one-man scumteam. Also, the fact that details of his role weren't published could indicate that said details would actually help Town significantly with what is going on.

-------
I started thinking about the aforementioned possibility because literally I cannot scumread anyone in this game right now.

And while I cannot exactly townread BYF at this point with his previous day track record, I am troubled by the fact that nobody else claimed to be responsible for the absence of nightkill. If someone knew he/she/they were responsible, they should had come out and counterclaimed BYF.

UNVOTE:

Unless something significant happens, my vote will again go to BYF.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Yeah, that is why Gaster's faction is created after Maxous's lynch but before his flip.

Maxous's role was "flipped" 24 hours after his lynch. First, the faction is created, then Maxous's "flips". Technically, this way, players have not eliminated all non-town players, in fact there is a 24 hours period where both Maxous and Gaster's faction are still technically "in-game". This 24 hour is neither daytime or nighttime, technically, so I doubt winning conditions would be checked, anyway.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Yeah, that is why Gaster's faction is created after Maxous's lynch but before his flip.

Maxous's role was "flipped" 24 hours after his lynch. First, the faction is created, then Maxous's "flips". Technically, this way, players have not eliminated all non-town players, in fact there is a 24 hours period where both Maxous and Gaster's faction are still technically "in-game". This 24 hour is neither daytime or nighttime, technically, so I doubt winning conditions would be checked, anyway.

And also, you cannot check for winning conditions, without a flip, anyway.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Yeah, that is why Gaster's faction is created after Maxous's lynch but before his flip.

Maxous's role was "flipped" 24 hours after his lynch. First, the faction is created, then Maxous's "flips". Technically, this way, players have not eliminated all non-town players, in fact there is a 24 hours period where both Maxous and Gaster's faction are still technically "in-game". This 24 hour is neither daytime or nighttime, technically, so I doubt winning conditions would be checked, anyway.

God, for some reason my gut tells me you're town really strongly as I read that post. And I know there's like nothing backing that logically. Whatever.

So you have no real reads atm?

No, I do not.

BYF was my only solid scumread, but after he claimed, it doesn't make sense that nobody counterclaims with the Jailkeeper alive, or at least tries to refute what he said. For every other player, there seems to be a "but" as to why they could be scum.

btw this is a quick thought that popped into my head while I was riding the train but do we have any confirmation that the wingdings messages aren't flavor/lies?

Per game rules, mod does not lie to us and I fail to see how the "A new faction has been created: MY FACTION" phrase is only a flavor thing.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Gio we spent a lot of time earlier discussing the "new faction" thing. The general consensus seems to be that there is both scum left over from pre-Max lynch and new scum by the cult thing iirc

Jae I would love your read on A50

Yes, I know. But I remain unconvinced about said consensus, that's all.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Here's what I gathered:
I'm gonna throw out the possibility that scum doesn't exist so I can sneak under the radar as scum.
Also, I'm gonna unvote BYF since I have to now that he's claimed, but keep my suspicions on him so I am backed-up when I vote him again.

If I am scum, I have done a great job of being under the radar the whole game, anyway. I have absolutely no reason to post theories that are contrary to the game's "popular belief" in order to hide/stay "more under the radar". It is "winmoar", as in something that if it worked it could further solidify "winning" but in reality is not really necessary in order to "win".

My suspicions of you are related to how horribly sketchy you have played during the previous day and how horribly sketchy you continue to play. You were not counterclaimed, which is something that gives you towncred for now, but not enough towncred to clear you.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

I swear, being in GMT+2/+3 is nothing short of torture in this game.

Creeps20 scum, I conversed with them on something weird he said. They called me confirmed scum once, which is a stretch on words. No reason to TR them.
This of course means Gio/Narna scum. Hard for me to believe Narna just derped. I also think it's... convenient that Giovanni came to Narna's rescue with a weak clear. Did he announce he was gonna check Narna beforehand? PV also hammered on him for not crumbing on who he would target before he claimed, which makes sense to me if you're actually a weak role.
They haven't contributed much lately either. What say you on this theory? Need more?

During early Day 5 (before the mass replacement) Narna was going to get lynched no matter who said whatever. It was the height of the Pitchfork Ages. If I was a scumbuddy of Narna, there would be absolutely no reason for me to stick my neck out for him, seeing how the overwhelming majority wanted him lynched, especially since I was generally townread up until that point. So no, it was not convenient neither for me nor for the hypothetical Gio+Narna scumteam to come to his rescue.

Also, my action was dangerous and futile. Nobody listened to me save Nahdia iirc. It was only after the mass replacement happened that people started thinking about alternatives, and I had no way of knowing that said thing would happen.

I have admitted of playing the role terribly, but I am bad at crumbing anyway, so I would have claimed sooner or later. I also decided not to tell who I would target Night 4 because I was afraid I might be meddled with. Back then I was the only one who had realized that results can be vague on purpose and I wanted to eliminate a vagueness variable.

Regarding who I will target this night:
The problem with targeting Almost50 lies elsewhere. As I have said, if I target someone who does not has a night action that targets, then the result is vague on purpose as to not know whether my action didn't go through or my target didn't target anybody. It is the same thing that happened with Maxous, where I hadn't realized that the action had failed until Maxous claimed to have targeted somebody. I can target A50, but I would prefer targeting someone who has claimed to have some kind of targeting action himself.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

...Gio I have a night action tonight only.
You should always crumb even if you think Town is playing idiocally. (Hence me and ice cream) These crumbs are something that may not make sense in the moment but would make sense if you flipped. Like if I had died at night and SirCakez had lived he would easily be able to know who I hit and why.

I know about your widget. I don't post much because I have three deadlines to meet, but I pay attention to the thread.

I never said that I didn't crumb because I was of the opinion that Town is playing idiotically. In fact, I don't think that Town is playing idiotically at all. This is a bastard game with shenanigans involved, it would actually be strange if there weren't opinions clashing with each other.

I don't like crumbing in general because if you do it the wrong way, the wrong/right message might go to the wrong people. Yes, in retrospect this role most likely needed crumbing, but I didn't feel comfortable doing so.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

i don't think Giovanni is scum anymore.

Assuming Gio is town, Gio checked Narna on N4 and got a could not kill? What does that mean to you? And what does that say about Narna's checks?

I am the follower, Mathblade, not the psychologist. I caught Narna performing an investigative action, as he claimed to do so as a psychologist.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Gio is claimed Weak. Gio isn't dead.

Ah, nevermind. I thought you got mine and Narna's role mixed up.

My mistake.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

I followed Mathblade yesterday and I can verify that they performed an investigative action.

In other news, my top pick for scum at the moment is probably Gio. I agree that Gio is pretty much confirmed as being a Follower at this point, but I don't think the Weak modifier has been confirmed, and that could be a fakeclaim to make the role look a lot more townish. Gio's a player I was getting scumpings from while following the game.

You have said something similar yesterday, but I didn't have time to respond. Can you be more specific as to why you scumread me?

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

I don't know what this whole confusion about the weak modifier is about. Cult is non-town (there, fixed that for you, jaereed). If I target cult, I will die. In plain words, if I target anyone whose name is not green when they flip, I die.

The main thing that's making me suspicious is that Gio's posts seem to show a low level of investment in who gets lynched. In general, this has been a game where tensions have run high and players have been furious with each other for not lynching a player who's "obvious scum". Meanwhile, Gio's been a voice calling for calm but not really doing anything with it. The best way to solve a "lynch X or lynch Y" argument is "but shouldn't we be looking at Z, at least to help solve the situation?". It isn't really "you're arguing too much, but meh". (Incidentally, having Maxous as a strong townread is not suspicious, as he had an unclaimed Ascetic at the time.) Gio seems to have had very few reads of his own; he's mostly just been happy to help wagons along. (Actually, many of his strongest reads have been on himself, using things like self-meta arguments.) Gio seems to have been softly pushing days to end without caring much about the outcome (which is likely to lead to compromise lynches, which tend tob e on town), and to have been defending himself, and not much else. That seems like behaviour that's most likely to come from scum, to me.

I'll admit that the fact that I don't have had many reads of my own is true. As I have said, I couldn't get a grip of the game back then. But "happy to help wagons along" is a factual stretch, especially taking into account the posts you quoted:

I actually explained why I preferred to lynch McMenno over Narna some posts later. I had just replaced in that day and there was the whole "N-clan" issue and whether they switched to MoI in order to save their "scumbuddy" McMenno. Narna was, at least, making an attempt to defend himself, so I went with McMenno who did absolutely nothing.

I wasn't part of the Leonshade wagon that got him lynched in the end. I retracted my vote some time after the post you quoted, but before the new wagon started emerging iirc. It would be very easy to revote Leonshade, given the fact that I seemed to initially believe the whole scum governor theory, yet I didn't.

I was scumreading Shiro, so I don't know why you quoted that part, even before Narna presented the infamous "kill-positive". I had said that if McMenno flips town then I would look for scum in the tail of the MoI wagon, on the basis that it would be more likely for scum, under the pretense of the time limit, to hop on the MoI wagon as late as possible. Shiro was the one who hammered MoI and his behaviour afterwards was anything but that of a townie.

The final post of your quote is early Day 5. If I was happy to help wagons along, I would have voted Narna, the

de facto

lynch that day. I would get rid of a quite powerful role, gotten away with it pretty smoothly and have an ample pool of potential mislynches in the pool of people that pushed for his lynch for five days, not go through all that Narna-clearing-then-vote nonsense.

The fact that my playstyle is calm doesn't mean I am focused. I like going analytical (see my other games here) but if I fail to do so, I am lost. I didn't offer an alternative to McMenno because I thought he was the best lynch, both from an informational and scumhunting perspective. I didn't offer an alternative to Leonshade and Narna because I had no clue what was going on and I was one of the few to admit it. There was nothing to townread about Shiro and I was certain he would flip scum.

(The thing that prompted me to check through Gio, though, was the claim, which seems like an unreasonable amount of town power. Obviously, it's possible that it's someone else who overclaimed, or that the roles are less useful than they seem, but Gio's role is one of the least confirmed and also one of the most specific, which means that there are nightplay reasons to think Gio is scum too.)

The role is nerfed by the fact that if it targets someone without an active night action, then there is no way to tell if my action went through and my target is clear, or something happened and my action failed. My pool of potential clears is shrinked this way and on top of that is even-night only. Narna's role seems as powerful as mine but suffers from the same problem; It could clear someone each night but the results were shaky.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

@CFJ:

OK, since PV has already responded to you on the mater, and since I'm soon to be lynched, I would like to tell you about my own theory of the "cult" (which isn't "technically" a cult bc they can no longer recruit, but the name makes sense as "those who have been recruited").

So, in my mind, Max would pisk a living player each night to become a member of his cult upon his death. Note that this is a CONDITIONAL RECRUITMENT, i.e. the actual change of alignment does NOT occur until/unless Max is dead.

So, anyone who had been "marked" by max would still flip TOWN as long as Max himself is alive. This also limits the number of his cult greatly because they could be lynched (or NK'd) before Max himself is dead, thus rendering his night action on that particular person as a failure already (well, not technically, but effectively so).

It's strange, I know, but not unheard of. In fact, I seem to have read a setup before in which the Mafia had no"direct" kills each night. Instead, they'd wire a target each night and will choose to detonate at will. After that point they can no longer mark new targets, so it's a one-off massacre if you will.

For more insight you may want to check the "Cultafia" page on the wiki. Only difference is the recruitment didn't happen instantaneously, and the "culted" didn't know about their alignment change till after Max was lynched. Anyone who had been marked by Max before but dies before his lynch still died as TOWN.

Why Maxous couldn't simply pick his cult's members upon being lynched with the number of "cult members" being analogous to the number of remaining players? The whole marking-then-switching progress seems complicated for the sake of being complicated.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Happy New Year.

I don't think there was much doubt of A50 being Town, to be honest. The whole thing was proposed by him (hence his vote on himself) in order to make Jaereed deathproof. However, the idea of lynching someone generally townread with 4 players alive seems ludicrous, no matter the benefit.

I read the last few pages that I haven't read because of work and SirCakez definitely acts weird.

CFJ being scum trying to get the wagon off his scumbuddy A50 would make a shitload of sense here.

Actually, even more so: @SirCakez: Please unvote. If the opinions you've stated in the thread are correct, you're not very invested in the A50 lynch. So why are you still on the wagon? #9851 is the only post I spotted in a quick scan of your ISO where you've expressed a scumread on that slot, and it was a relational tell via me. In such a circumstance, you should be voting for me instead.

Especially this.

Quote nesting by myself. As CFJ said, if SirCakez really believed the quoted, his vote would be on CFJ, not Almost50. SirCakez was willing to lynch Almost50 (the easy lynch), was part of the wagon that lynched Creeps (also an easy lynch). Before that, he sat conveniently monolithically accusing Narna for the whole game.

VOTE: SirCakez

L-2 vote

Here you go, Almost50.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Happy New Year.

I don't think there was much doubt of A50 being Town, to be honest. The whole thing was proposed by him (hence his vote on himself) in order to make Jaereed deathproof. However, the idea of lynching someone generally townread with 4 players alive seems ludicrous, no matter the benefit.

EBWOP: 10 players alive.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

I am programming Arduino chipsets for the last 5 days almost non-stop. Two hours ago I mistook a sound output thingie we use for the building's fire alarm. Have mercy on me.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

How is Giovanni's role heavily nerfed?

1) Even Night only.

2) Weak (yes it is both a pro and a con).

3) Uncertain results unless it targets someone who used their active ability that night.


If anything, Narna's role was more powerful than mine in a vacuum as it's only limitation was the uncertainty of the result. The fact that everyone progressively roleclaimed and made me capable of confirming whether I was messed with or not (and thus confirming alignments thanks to the weak modifier) is not something that should be attributed to the role.

The circumstances made the role powerful.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Given the gamestate, JaeReed was the only "confirmed" townie that could be nightkilled. As Nahdia was townreading Mathblade, it would be logical that she could be protecting the one cleared by him. Or maybe she hinted at who she would target at the neighborhood and scum caught wind of it?

CFJ was an all around active player and the one who actually used solid logic in order to pin down SirCakez. I think he got nightkilled just for being a good player with the off-chance that his flip would further frame Mathblade and me. And speaking of Mathblade, I still think that he is town and this not gonna change. No only do I find the whole Godfather theory over the top, but also when I checked him, I got a result on the type of action he performed (investigative). If he was a Godfather, I would most likely get the "usual" "maybe didn't do anything/maybe you were tampered with" message.

So, what is your opinion on SirCakez's flip? He flipped both red and Gaster's Follower. I think that now we can consider the possibility of a scumteam not existing before Maxous's flip.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

@Almost50, while I understand your case against Mathblade and I agree that his play is far from that of a townie, I still think that it is very hard for my result to have been messed with, with what we currently know about the roles.

I have checked three times this game. First target was Maxous, second was Narna, third was Mathblade.

-The first one didn't go through because Maxous was most likely an ascetic.

-Narna returned an investigative result. Narna flipped Psychologist. So, my result on Narna was most likely genuine.

-Mathblade returned an investigative result, as he claimed he would, due to the usage of the widget he claimed to receive. Nahdia confirmed Mathblade's

I get the sentiment that "results can be shaky", however, there must be a reason for them to be shaky. Only way for Mathblade to be scum and still return a positive "investigational" result, the way I see it, is if there is a redirector in the game who redirected me to Narna or Not Chara, the only other roles with abilities that could return investigative results at the time of my check.

However, If there was a redirector in the game, I think that the residue effect of his actions would have been felt by now, unless he has some weird restriction, like my role, who prevents him from acting too much.

If Mathblade was a Godfather, I probably would receive the typical "target did nothing/something happened and your action failed" response when he used the widget, instead of a confirmational one.

So, can you actually explain this in more detail? Have I missed something, or this was something you haven't accounted for in detail?

@Skullduggery, I will be V/LA until Thursday the 12th.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Nahdia confirmed Mathblade's

result

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

@Skullduggery, I am no longer V/LA.

@Gio I want to be extra super sure. Did your night result PM when you followed MathBlade say that MATHBLADE performed the investigative action, or did it just say YOUR TARGET?

Yes, it said that Mathblade performed the action.

So I asked. Godfather being followed by a weak follower, if there's nothing else as a modifier to either of them or any result messing stuff, from my understanding of the answers the mod gave me (I asked a hypothetical godfather being followed and a hypothetical godfather visited by weak role) would have the weak follower both live and receive a result on the investigative action the Godfather took.

(sigh)

Let's get on with it, then.


VOTE: Mathblade

L-1

Mathblade, since you seem to be online, take the lead.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Nahdia, the only player left with an active role... I caught her doing a protective and intefering action, not that it matters anymore.

That means my role's usefulness as well is greatly reduced now.


Also, happy birthday BYF.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Crumb the fact that I would follow the only player left capable of giving me a solid result? No, I didn't. Since Ankamius didn't get a shot, I thought it would be self-explanatory.

Oh, and thank you!
I'm legal to drive now! XD

Oh, you yankies and your driving laws. Here, the minimum age is 18... legally...

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

I officially give up. Nahdia was my strongest SR, and I have no more suspects to push.

I said if Nahdia's lynch wouldn't end the game I would lynch Ankamius, but seeing as Nahdia was actually NK'd I am having second thoughts and Scum maybe setting Ankamius up for a mislynch, so I'm leaving it up to you guys as to whomever you decide to lynch.

P.S. Once again my lynch with JR hammering is starting to look like an appealing thought. If you're seeing it my way, don't just stand there and say "yay!". Vote me, please.

Nahdia, a claimed Jailkeeper was extremely dangerous as the playerbase dwindled, so it isn't really a surprise.

For all you neighbors, did Nahdia said/implied who were they going to jailkeep?

I also believe that there is only one scum left, so I am on board with JR hammering you, however, only as a last resort option in case we don't reach a concensus. I am definitely not comfortable with lynching so strong a towntell of mine so close to MyLo/LyLo.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Ank, are you drunk posting? The thread was locked for the night phase and has only been reopened for 23 hours.

Ankamius meant that he was surprised that nobody posted for the two thirds of the first day of this day phase.

I'm favoring a Giovanni lynch right now solely because of that follow, but I'll wait until I look into stuff to say for sure.

What was wrong with the follow? I have said over and over again that my results are unreliable unless they target someone with an active night action.

On top of Nahdia being the only person having an active night action, she was suspected by Almost50 and JaeReed for reasons unrelated to Mathblade's flip. After Mathblade flipped Town, I had no reason not to believe that Nahdia is Town and I hoped that my follow would convince Almost50 and JaeReed, who townread me (well, the former, at least) that Nahdia is Town. Also, since Nahdia was scumread by some, I figured that she would be kept alive for a while longer on the basis that she was a ripe mislynch target and I tried to prevent that.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Actually, your death along with the crumb that has never been is what we are looking for way more than who you followed and where they went.

What made you think Nahdia might be scum performing the kill and not the Jailkeeper she claimed?

Read 10716 again. I never said that I suspected Nahdia as scum. I said that Almost50 and JaeReed suspected that Nahdia is scum, so I targeted Nahdia in order to avoid another day of pointless speculation, in addition to them being the only target that could provide a definite result.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

OK, let me try to put myself in Maxous' shoes and see what I can come up with:

My problem with your logic here is that, in your scenario, Maxous picks based on PR strength alone. SirCakez's Inventor was far from a powerful PR compared to others, yet he got chosen. It seems simplistic to pick your cult based on

claimed

PRs alone.

However, even if we go by PRs alone, survivability of a claimed role is another factor to take into account. A vanilla townie would normally be a bad target to cult, but because of that, they have a lower chance to be lynched and nightkilled; A powerful PR not getting nighkilled eventually raises alarms and can be easily lynched, a vanilla townie not so much.

And no, I am not stating that JaeReed might be scum. It was an example.

Except you claimed weak, which means you could target mafia and give a result of your death, which would in turn allow us to catch an actual mafia player.

Except that had you died, we would have had no result ONCE again, because you left no information on your supposed target.

It's almost as if you don't get your role, like it's not real.....

So, when you explain your actions and results as if you are not a weak follower, it makes it harder to believe you're a weak follower.

Follow me?

Vote: Giovanni

So far, you have said over and over again how bad I have misplayed the role.

What exactly is scummy in my play other than that?

Also, was I scum from the beginning of the game or did I got culted when Maxous got lynched?

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

You misplayed the role 3 times in a row. Both aspects of your claimed role. So 6 times. Even after being called out on it by me the first time.

I don't believe in the Max cult thing, so scum since the beginning.

You don't believe in the "Max cult thing"... A couple of questions, then:

What was that message from Skullduggery after the Maxous flip, stating that a "New faction was created" in addition to the fact that the mod does not outright lie, per game rules? What was that extra long night for?

Why SirCakez, our only red flip, flipped "Gaster's Follower"?

What is the correlation between "Gaster" (Maxous's role) and "Gaster's Followers"?

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

So I guess it's down to whatever is agreed on. Will probably be Gio [...]

Why? The idea of me being scum since the beginninng of the game is preposterous. Since I doubt anyone is willing to look back at the game's history, let me remind you:

1) I was under no pressure to claim when I did so during Day 3. I did only because I townread Maxous, having checked on him the previous Night, and I thought that the fact that both Narna and Creature pushed for both me and him was strange, given the fact that Narna had just got off the lynch by Leonshade.

2) I could have easily voted Narna to get rid of a role that could prove me fake at any time while not risking getting singled out by giving an innocent on him.

3) If I was scum, I had absolutely no reason to be the first to say, that depending on who you target, results can be shaky. I would leave town in their own ignorance.

4) If I was in league with Maxous before his flip, I would gladly get myself lynched so our force of nature, ascetic, role-blocking monstrosity of a role could carry on, not single him out and basically be the underlying reason that forced him to admit that he wasn't town.

5) If I was fakeclaiming, I would actually talk with my scumbuddies after having fakeclaimed and started crumbing.

PeregrineV is just ignoring what little facts we have so that he can fit his whole "Gio is scum since the beginning" theory into the game's frame, despite making little sense, based only on how badly I played the role.

Unless you also believe that SirCakez flipping "Gaster's Follower" isn't related to Gaster at all, a two-man scum team and a third party is sufficient opposition to 19 Townies with roles and the notion that prior to Maxous's lynch we lynched only Townies no matter what, was a coincidence.

And if I was scum after Maxous's lynch, I wouldn't give a clear on the damned bulletproof, unless you imply that I am a real life psychic and can predict the future. I would admit targeting him and receiving a no result instead of targeting him and confirming the type of action that he claimed to have performed. This way, I would actually fuel the whole Godfather nonsense myself.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Dunno.

Dunno.

Tell me the relevance.

I wasn't the one suggesting that the culting thing was nonsense.

His last one was watching the town player that claimed jailkeeper? Just like Mathblade the night before? I don't get the point, nor the town motivation in doing so.

Mathblade had a one-shot active ability which allowed me to get a result on the type of action he performed. They also asked to be checked by me that night, because of the one-shot action they had.

Nahdia was the only one left with an active ability that would let me get a result on the type of action performed.

Both had people suspecting them, while I was townreading them. I targeted them to clear things up.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

I feel like you're following popular opinion a lot lately and trying to appease me & Ank. It feels like everything you've pushed lately has been jumping on a small thing one of us noted to push it as a thing.

idunno I might be wrong. My gut was pinging me like crazy there though.

Is it even possible that scum forgets I'm mechanically clear here?

Since you were cleared before day5, right?

I would be voting Yoshi, but I'll wait for Gio first to throw in. He's been watching Yoshi's play since at least day5.

Seems like I posted this more than a day ago, but it was only yesterday, when all my troubles seemed so far away.

But, it's still relevant.

Yes, I know.

I am replying to it right now.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Sorry for the delay. This post was meant to be posted around 6 hours ago, but I didn't had time to finish it.

First of all, guys, my ability is even night only. The upcoming night is Night 9 (odd), so no checks.

I would be voting Yoshi, but I'll wait for Gio first to throw in. He's been watching Yoshi's play since at least day5.

So, I actually sat and re-read everything from Day 5 onwards.

There are several things I didn't like about Yoshi's behaviour in general but I didn't had time to organize my thoughts. I am going to separate this small thesis on "Before Maxous lynch", "After Maxous lynch" and "After SirCakez lynch".

Before Maxous lynch (Day 5-)

What stroke me as odd about Yoshi's behaviour initially was the fact that he replaced in a rather stale game where we were desperate for a new point of view, yet he didn't attempt to provide that in the slightest.

He replaced in during Day 4; he said he was re-reading the game, but he quit doing so around page 20. Fair enough, it isn't weird for a replacement not to read a bazillion-pages-long game. After that, he did nothing of substance for the remainder of the day.

During early Day 5 however, before the mass replacements, there was this whole pitchfork thing going on against Narna. While I could see why Andrius or SirCakez or really anybody else that has played since the beginning (and saw Narna escaping the noose thrice) would grab the pitchfork and be frustrated after that weird kill-positive he gave on Shiro, I couldn't understand why Yoshi was so frustrated as to agree with things like "everybody who doesn't vote for Narna is scum". Just before the replacements happened, he toned down his rhetoric a bit and unvoted Narna.

After the replacements, he begins sheeping, starting by sheeping Mathblade and even Mathblade calls him out on that. He then attempts to sheep A50 against Mathblade. He then stays on a limbo kind of state and then he sheeps Ankamius against Mathblade.

Bottom line: He posted a lot without contributing at all, always hiding behind someone else's opinion. That was, however, before Day 6, and since I now don't believe that there was a scum team prior to Maxous's lynch, he couldn't have been scum at the time.

He also was the only player left that had neither claimed or hinted at his role.

After Maxous lynch (Day 6+)

Day 6 starts with the faction announcement.

Then, at some point during early Day 6, he claims that he is responsible for the no-kill night under the pressure of being lynched. I have two major problems with the way he claimed:

1) Why did he wait until L1/L2 to claim a now useless role? Why let the rest of town muddle into shit while he could claim right from the beginning and save everyone the time? Was the priest part of his role worth it?

2) Why was he so unsure whether he was responsible for the no-kill if he had a blanket-type ability as he claimed to have? What else could have happened that prevented the kill, save for Nahdia jailing someone and telling right away?

Before his claim, he was, for the first and last time, actively trying to contribute on his own. He seemed to want to lynch Mathblade and hoped that some of those more sceptical about Mathblade and his hostile takeover around would follow suit. However, as the day progressed, he seemed to fall more and more again into safe sheeping territory (he no longer was in danger of being lynched), culminating to the fact that he apparently had no problem lynching creeps, a compromise lynch if I have ever seen one.

Even so, this was probably his best day. He actually tried to take initiative. This was quite different from the blind sheeping of Pre Maxous lynch.

Day 7 begins and he starts sheeping and pushing for the Mathblade/Giovanni scumteam as soon as CFJ announces that he will actually expand on why I am scum. Then he generally sheeps CFJ and JaeReed, hiding behind them. He momentarily unvotes SirCakez, voting Math and then me, and then votes SirCakez again.

After SirCakez lynch (Day 8+)

Day 8, after SirCakez is lynched, he drops all pretenses, wears his best lambswool jacket and just sheeps A50 and Jaereed to oblivion. Many of his posts that day was "I agree with this" "I agree with him/it/them" while generally letting A50, JR and/or Ankamius take the blunt of the Mathblade lynch. I also feel that a lot of his previous snarkiness has just vanished. It seems like he has become more careful, all of a sudden.

Day 9, Ankamius said it best and I have nothing to add.


So, to summarise:

1) Yoshi's demeanor changed for a brief amount of time after Maxous's lynch, before conveniently reverting back to his old sheeping self when it was no longer necessary to take initiative.
2) Same thing as 1) happened after SirCakez's lynch, although it was a change of a different kind. More subtle, definitely.
3) His role was unclaimed as of the culting night. Why is this important?

Amongst their proven ranks, town had:

a) A Bulletproof
b) A Psychologist
c) A Jailkeeper
d) A Motion Detector

Yet Maxous goes and cults the Inventor? My point is that Maxous probably didn't pick his cult based on the power of roles, but on survivability, as I have said before. A new replacement and unclaimed role would have had good chances of survival, along an inventor who would be useless after he gives his inventions away. In this case, Yoshi immediately "discharging" his healing effect actually makes a lot of sense. By forgoing a kill, the cult actually creates a pretty good alibi for one of it's members. If what I say about survivability is true (if Maxous was as concerned about survivability as much as I think he might have been), then maybe there are no two scum left but one, as he had to take into account the fact that the cult could be on a numerical disadvantage.

This last point makes sense from a balancing point of view, in my opinion, as well. Maxous was extremely difficult to find and lynch and we only managed to do so thanks to a very extraordinary string of events. It could make sense that his cult faction would be easier to get.

4) PoE. Currently there are 5 players alive, excluding me: JaeReed, Almost50 and Ankamius are on the "no" list. I gave some thought regarding Ankamius before this day started. He only seems to fit third party if he is not town, and even if he was, he would be the most ineffective third party I have ever seen. Maxous, the other "third party" was a force of nature, roleblocking, ascetic, faction-pooping juggernaut, while supposed third party Ankamius is basically a murderous version of a pokemon; if he gets enough hammers he evolves and can kill people and that is unless he doesn't get singled out and get himself lynched in the process, all the while being a miller and then hated.

That leaves us with Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and that Green Lizard from Mario.

While Gideon is a caricature of a character and Elspeth was better at representing the traits of white mana, I find it hard to believe that Ankamius, supposedly an all around good player, could make a case as bad as this against me as scum in such critical a moment.

So that leaves us with Yoshi.

------------------------------

I might have missed something, but that is the gist of it. Honestly, there is no way that I am gonna read 150+ pages of content again.

Anyway, I hope the textwall actually sparks some discussion.

My vote is in essence on Yoshi. However, no-lynch is also a viable option, so I withhold my actual vote until we reach a consensus.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

While Gideon is a caricature of a character and Elspeth was better at representing the traits of white mana, I find it hard to believe that

Ankamius

, supposedly an all around good player, could make a case as bad as this against me as scum in such critical a moment.

Here, I meant PeregrineV. Dammit, I ruined the Gideon joke.

I don't like you calling creeps a compromise lynch to incriminate me.
I was the first one to do so with some reason (of which I did not sheep) behind it.
There was quite a bit of time before the lynch became appealing to people, and even then, it wasn't because of me (Narna, I believe).

Fair enough on the creeps bit. I feel like it was a compromise lynch, but since it was you that first voted, it was a compromise on the part of others and not you.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Anyone not voting Shiro or Narna is on my scumlist.

You mean this?

Yeah, or things like this:

Seriously, anyone who doesn't vote Narna in their first post of this day is scum.

I expected a more open-minded approach from someone who didn't carry with him the frustration of whatever nonsense had transpired up until that point.

My claim late into day 6 was an attempt to gain information. I thought that the lack of a nightkill would have sparked more interest and perhaps through some theories that people came up with, especially MathBlade at the time, we would have more to analyze. My claim to have "probably" been the reason for the no-kill night was for that reason precisely, Nahdia's jailkeep, which may seem unnecessary but whatever.

Herein lies my problem: Nahdia was claimed JK by that point. They would come right away and say who they jailed if they thought they had something. They had posted multiple times since Day 6 started. You claimed a now nigh useless role only when it was convenient for you to do so.

Also, kind of a bit late to start mentioning all of this, wouldn't you agree? We have 2 days left, this would have been much more useful for us earlier in the day.
Oh, and by the way. We have 2 days left. VOTE PV!
Are y'all content with a NL?

I don't have the time to post whenever I want to. Wish I had, it would have saved me a lot of uneccesary frustration.

No, I am not content with a NL. However, we may not reach a consensus and I was stating the fact that I can begrudgingly accept a no-lynch.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

@A50 a no lynch only means I die and you lose your clear. You understand that, right? Especially given Ank can't shoot, and Gio can't follow.

And I hadn't thought about that, but on second thought, it is a valid concern. NL means that most likely JaeReed dies. That means that next Day Phase we will be in the same situation as today, but with one player less. I don't think JaeReed's alignment can be argued anymore.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

VOTE: BigYoshiFan

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

VOTE: Ankamius

I was vanilla up until N3; I've been a miller since.

Once I get a hammer, I will replace miller with hated.

Well, if what Ankamius said here is true, he should have the hated modifier right now.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

UNVOTE:

So, we have no way to knowing whether Ankamius even has the modifier he has claimed to have anymore. I must have missed the whole "resets" thing, unless it was never mentioned.

I am at a loss, anyway.

I don't even know why BYF claimed to be scum before flipping green.

I don't know why PV was nightkilled instead of you.

I need to re-read.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Oh has it already been two days? Q.Q rip I've done nothing to solve this since then. I forgot.

Yeah, same. Honestly, my will to reread everything Day 6 onwards right now is near zero.

I don't even know what's happening in this game anymore.

Why Yoshi acted and/or implied being scum during twilight if he knew he was gonna flip green?

Why is PV dead?

Jesus Christ, I have been playing since late October and it is February... I vaguely remember the times of the N-clan vs McMenno like it was a childhood dream and now I am in MYLO in a mental stalemate.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

The timing of Maxous' lynch was one of the worst things to happen to the then still unformed Gaster's Followers faction. Seriously, he was lynched at the worst possible moment.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Finally, I have some time to comment on the game.

And I did come to the conclusion you were town with Math's flip. I was hoping saying I was scumreading you still would stop you being killed. It was silly of me, sorry :c

Ironically, the reason I nightkilled Nahdia was because you said you scumread them. If you hadn't said anything and left me under the impression that only Almost50 scumread them, there wasa chance I would have chosen someone else.

Regarding the cultification message, I am just gonna say that Yoshi was chosen because he was the one most likely to act as intended out of all the possible candidates. He was/seemed to be:

1) The most gullible of the "Gutblock", so I figured he would be the one most likely to believe himself culted.
2) The calmer and more sheepish out of the same block; he had a distinct flaw in the way he was playing which I hoped to be reinforced if he believed he was culted.
3) The one less likely to troll during twilight in case he was lynched. I wanted someone who would say "nah, gg you caught me", instead of trolling out of spite.

As far as I remember, after the "cultification" night ended he immediately went V/LA and then started sheeping more than before. I don't know if this was because of the cultification or because he genuinely didn't had time, however.

Town collectively played atrocious after Maxous' lynch. Like, literally, every major decision save for SirCakez's lynch was bad, culminating to Mathblade's lynch which was absolutely the worst, for many reasons. It was his lynch that gave me hope that the crazy plan I had in mind could work. I think JaeReed (or someone else) said it better: You were trying to interpret the evidence in a way that matches your point of view, rather than adjusting your point of view in a way that matches the evidence and when a new batch of evidence still didn't match your point of view, you got disheartened and abandoned the game.

MVP metal is shared between CallforJudgment and pre-Maxous-flip Mathblade, for me. The former almost solved the game and sent any planning I had done down the drain by finding and lynching SirCakez before me and the latter actually pierced the scattered evidence together and advanced the gamestate. I firmly believe, however, that the real Mathblade was abducted by aliens during the cultification night and then were promptly replaced by a sentient gelatinous cube for the rest of their run this game.

Anyway, this was quite some game. I am an analytical player and playing as scum here was one of the most skill intensive experiences I have ever had mafia-wise when it comes to analysis. The last three game days, where I was seeing my plan slowly coming together is probably my favorite bit of mafia ever. Also, by god, this must be the only time I have actually

felt

the burden of knowledge weighting me down.

Nonetheless, it's been a privilege playing with you guys. I don't think I will play again in something as big as this, as four+ months of commitment is too much for me, but I hope to see you again in something smaller. I also hope my lurkiness wasn't too annoying.

Skullduggery, thanks for giving me the chance to play. It was an awesome experience.

[Giovanni il Pellegrino]

Regarding the cultification message, I am just gonna say that Yoshi was chosen because he was the one most likely to act as intended out of all the possible candidates. He was/seemed to be:

1) The most gullible of the "Gutblock", so I figured he would be the one most likely to believe himself culted.
2) The calmer and more sheepish out of the same block;

he had a distinct flaw in the way he was playing which I hoped to be reinforced if he believed he was culted.

3) The one less likely to troll during twilight in case he was lynched. I wanted someone who would say "nah, gg you caught me", instead of trolling out of spite.

This, I presume? (In regards to my read on MathBlade?)

You were trying to interpret the evidence in a way that matches your point of view

, rather than adjusting your point of view in a way that matches the evidence and when a new batch of evidence still didn't match your point of view, you got disheartened and abandoned the game.

No, this was a comment on the game generally. Your distinct flaw was your tendency to sheep.