Open 665 - Friends and Enemies - Game Over! Town Victory!!!

[Antihuman]

Hi

Spoiler:

On the topic of fitz vs BBT (p9):
I understand fitz's logic and I can see why BBT dislikes it. This argument looks TvT.

I dislike Alisae's jump back onto the Grey wagon in #201. She was supposed to re-evaluate her reads but instead saw the Grey wagon was getting traction again and jumped with low effort. The reason for her vote being a meta read so I don't see why she unvoted at all. Not enough to scumread her yet though.

mozamis, don't think I will let you slide on not taking a stance on the Ali vs. Grey 1v1.

Hang on, still catching up! Gut is telling me town on town. Most epic in thread fights always seem to be.

This post's terrible. There's like 3 different stances you've just presented at once:
1. I still haven't decided
2. I've personally judged it looks TvT
3. I'm using a meta tell

Seems fabricated.

Need more from a lot of people, but since he has given out "nervous scum" vibes, AND he is lurking:

VOTE CONMAN MICK

Where does he come off as nervous? I had the exact opposite feeling.

Not sure how I feel about Ali, let me read again

We're on page 10. I don't get the catchup posts. It'll take you what, 10 minutes to re-read the game? That's assuming you read as slowly as I.

Guess how long it has taken me to read properly when I replaced in (there were roughly 6 pages). Spoiler: 2 hours.

Ugh and now Alisae has given up her strongest scumread (#251). Not sure how I should read that, especially followed by that atrocious SS vote. Is he a tunnelling townie who's finally noticed he's wrong or is he scum acknowledging his push has lost its meaning?
Alisae explains his SS vote was purely for pressure but what good is it when you've openly admitted it?
Not sure if all this can be called a playstyle thing.

Not a fan of Hawk's #283-#284. Looks like insecure scum buddying.

Alisae's jump on Empking (#290) makes me think that's just his playstyle (inexperienced townie going for low-hanging fruit). Grey, can you confirm that since you know him?

Ok now the King wagon is getting a little bit ridiculous. 4 bare pressure votes, how is that supposed to work?

Join me on King.

Sure, Empking hasn't done anything to leave the bottom half of my nebulous read cloud yet.

VOTE: Empking

Why are we voting him in particular? I saw you mention the jump on Alisae and shade-throwing. It's kind of meh. I suppose those are things that happened, but surely, other people have been scummy too. Who's your second highest read?

I wanna sheep this shit as well. I also don't particularly townread them for fosing people who aren't voting when we're less then 10 pages in. Seems like kinda a shit reason to fos a group of people to me.
VOTE: Empking

Don't you scum lean him for that then?

Honestly I still don't have the best reads but I wouldn't mind hearing more from Emp.

VOTE: EmpKing

This is the epitome of opportunism

Hey Grey, if I said BBT was scum, would you buy it at all?

I wouldn't (for now)

Naked voting without a follow up isn't pressure.

Ok then please enlighten me how is this:

Join me on King.

Sure, Empking hasn't done anything to leave the bottom half of my nebulous read cloud yet.

VOTE: Empking

Why are we voting him in particular? I saw you mention the jump on Alisae and shade-throwing. It's kind of meh. I suppose those are things that happened, but surely, other people have been scummy too. Who's your second highest read?

Join me on King.

Sure, Empking hasn't done anything to leave the bottom half of my nebulous read cloud yet.

VOTE: Empking

Why are we voting him in particular? I saw you mention the jump on Alisae and shade-throwing. It's kind of meh. I suppose those are things that happened, but surely, other people have been scummy too. Who's your second highest read?

I wanna sheep this shit as well. I also don't particularly townread them for fosing people who aren't voting when we're less then 10 pages in. Seems like kinda a shit reason to fos a group of people to me.
VOTE: Empking

Don't you scum lean him for that then?

Honestly I still don't have the best reads but I wouldn't mind hearing more from Emp.

VOTE: EmpKing

Any different from King's vote on Alisae?

Do you really want me to say it?

I know what you're hinting at and if so, you're wrong. I would've mentioned her by now.

Do you want me to say it, yes or no?

Just say it

Okay.
You, BBT, and boring are masons.

Unless this was reaction test, it was awful. I'm gonna classify you as derptown for now.

King, I didn't say you were suspicious, I said your vote for Ali was. I found it suspicious because you had FoS'd everyone who wasn't voting before you casted your vote without giving them a reason to engage with you or the game itself. It looked like you did a quick skim of those same people and picked Ali because you thought he was low-hanging fruit and you wouldn't get too much flak for jumping on his wagon.

Ok this actually looks plausible. But this:

You even tried to justify it by siting your meta when no one had asked you why you were joining his wagon.

Isn't since it was me who asked King about his wagon tendencies:

He's just said he'll post some insight tomorrow though.

UnFOS: Blue, Anti

Unvote
Vote: Alis

Do you usually prefer to join existing wagons or create them?

But it seems he's ignored my other questions, unless I missed it.

Yeah the last two pages are really making me concerned about Ali but you just can't tell with him. It would've been nice if we had a cop in this setup.

Relying on prs to solve the game is weak.

Grey still looks town, maybe even more so.

[boring]

It took you long enough.

And no. In fact, I've yet to find any confident townread at this point. It's kind of a problem.

If that's true,

Lazy would be sheeping LUV. Like we're doing.

That makes no sense.

Why would you actively sheep someone that you aren't confident is town?

You have what I said at the time of my sheep vote (something like, sure Empking isn't great, with the follow up for second read), and I wanted to see what would happen. Two more sheep votes and a stall with almost no one addressing it (except Empking). I'm still not sure what to do with this information, but it's got to mean something.

I've never played with Alisae. My first instinct was that his entrance was a clever way to expose some knee-jerk cc from a derpy player with a Mason roll while pretending to be early scumhunting. At least that sounds like something I'd do as scum.

This indicates a scumlean on Alisae, but

I don't see what was scummy about Grey before, but that reaction was interesting.

VOTE: -Grey-

15 posts later, this happened.

Tell me, are you entertaining the notion of scum theater here, or do you think Ali is town here?

I'm pretty sure I explained my vote on you in detail.

If Alisae's opening behavior is normal, it suggests that he likes to actively scumhunt.

What did Alisae post to make you abandon your theory from post 65?

I believe I was also clear in backing off of Alisae on Hawk's word that this was normal town behavior for Alisae. I didn't dig for myself and made it clear that I didn't. Hawk stuck his neck out, and I think that might be significant later.

I'm not entirely sure what to make of either of you, which I've also said.

@LUV, the last time I played with you, your reads won the game for us. I'm interested in your ongoing opinion of the gamestate. (by the way, I know you're V/LA now, but you have a habit of "forgetting" you're in games. Please don't forget about us.)

This looks to me like you are talking to a townread.

Talk to me about the progression of your read on LUV.

I'm seeing something new from LUV, and I don't know yet whether I trust it. When we were scum together, he was obvious scum. So was I. He made summary posts, and followed moon logic. I've seen him play vig where he hung back, and killed the scum for us. Now, he's acting really towny. He's making pushes, he's confident, he's arguing, and he's participating. I want to say "LUV is def. town", but I also know he's clever. Cleverer than he seems to get credit for. He's been reading games, and it's possible that he's scum with a great learning curve. It's a meta WIFOM that I want to ignore, but can't entirely.

@Toffee, I don't like summary posts from people who aren't sub-ins. It creates an illusion of participation, and it's pretty close to solidifying as a scumtell for me. So is an immediate "yup, you're town" when you voice concern about that player. It seems aimed to appease.

You sure lobbed some softballs at me after my reread and flipped opinion of Alisae, if this is true.

Why? You don't strike me as the type to handle scumspects with kid gloves, so your behavior isn't matching up with this post.

You're right. When I'm confident, I push harder. In the meantime, I'm poking and prodding where the wind takes me. I think I'm near a breakthrough on a proper hard scumread, so give me a little more time. That quote you quoted was lobbed at FancyPants, by the way.

I saw something that made me believe that Alisae is town that I had written off on the initial read through.

Seems pretty obvious.

And that something shuffled him from top scum read to top town read that quickly? It must have been one incredible something. I suppose that means

we can look to you to help defend Alisae

, should he find himself under serious fire any time soon.

After all the questioning you've done of Alisae, the bolded doesn't fit.

I'm not sure what's not to understand. I want to lock you into your statement.

[-Grey-]

There's a reason I didn't wall post, boring. My phone can't handle them. The browser freezes up for some weird reason.

If you want me to address something, give it its own post, please.

[-Grey-]

I'm pretty sure I explained my vote on you in detail.

That's an evasion. I was addressing your behavior in regards to Alisae.

[-Grey-]

I'm seeing something new from LUV, and I don't know yet whether I trust it. When we were scum together, he was obvious scum. So was I. He made summary posts, and followed moon logic. I've seen him play vig where he hung back, and killed the scum for us. Now, he's acting really towny. He's making pushes, he's confident, he's arguing, and he's participating. I want to say "LUV is def. town", but I also know he's clever. Cleverer than he seems to get credit for. He's been reading games, and it's possible that he's scum with a great learning curve. It's a meta WIFOM that I want to ignore, but can't entirely.

So, he's obvious as scum, but he's also "cleverer than he gets credit for".

Yeah. That's not contradictory

at all

.

[boring]

I'm pretty sure I explained my vote on you in detail.

That's an evasion. I was addressing your behavior in regards to Alisae.

That's baseless shade. I will expand so you can understand better.

I voted you for your reaction, which was independent of my read on Alisae and my opinion of his reasoning. I voted you because you seemed jumpy. You had no reason to be jumpy as town.

I don't have a solid read on Alisae, and I didn't then either. By all accounts, he's acted incredibly scummy, but why would scum be so painfully obvious? His reasoning has been simultaneously stiff and moony, which tells me it's just him (regardless of alignment). So clumsy scum or derpy town? You tell me.

[boring]

I'm seeing something new from LUV, and I don't know yet whether I trust it. When we were scum together, he was obvious scum. So was I. He made summary posts, and followed moon logic. I've seen him play vig where he hung back, and killed the scum for us. Now, he's acting really towny. He's making pushes, he's confident, he's arguing, and he's participating. I want to say "LUV is def. town", but I also know he's clever. Cleverer than he seems to get credit for. He's been reading games,

and it's possible that he's scum with a great learning curve

. It's a meta WIFOM that I want to ignore, but can't entirely.

So, he's obvious as scum, but he's also "cleverer than he gets credit for".

Yeah. That's not contradictory

at all

.

[boring]

What are people thinking about BlueBloodedToffee?

[SnarkySnowman]

What are people thinking about BlueBloodedToffee?

Possible scum. He spent a lot of time saying a lot of meaningless things in long form, imo to seem like he was contributing a lot. tbh I think he's smarter than a lot of the points he made though.

[mozamis]

What are people thinking about BlueBloodedToffee?

catching up. early on i thought he looked town.

[boring]

What are people thinking about BlueBloodedToffee?

Possible scum. He spent a lot of time saying a lot of meaningless things in long form, imo to seem like he was contributing a lot. tbh I think he's smarter than a lot of the points he made though.

Can you expand on that a bit? I'm seeing some "town read me" fluff, and I can't follow his jumps, but I get the impression that he would be a capable town player. I don't see helpful reason for it.

p-edit: mozamis, why did he look town to you?

[-Grey-]

By all accounts, he's acted incredibly scummy, but why would scum be so painfully obvious? His reasoning has been simultaneously stiff and moony, which tells me it's just him (regardless of alignment). So clumsy scum or derpy town? You tell me.

He always strikes me as scum, especially so on d1.

It makes no sense, though, that you'd be thinking he was Scum AND voting on the same wagon he was.

[mozamis]

bit of a vague memory now, but he seemed questioning and engaged in the game.

[-Grey-]

That quote you quoted was lobbed at FancyPants, by the way.

Are you suggesting that your treatment of non-replacement catch-ups depends on the person rereading the game? Because that's not the way your post originally read.

[SnarkySnowman]

He looks like he's genuinely scumhunting.

What does 'genuine' scum hunting look like? And how would you differentiate that from 'fake' scum hunting?

Nonsense question asked a lot in a lot of games, and I've never really seen an answer that doesn't boil down to "gut" or "tone".

OK well not much to go on thus far. Let's take a stab then.
Alisae, Havingfitz, Empking, Grey, Hawk all seem to have some vague interest in figuring out this game at least.

ConManMick and boring haven't done much. LUV I'm not sure about.
Mozamis making some really early town reads, makes me suspect he

knows

who town are. Surety is scummy.

Therefore I'm happy with my vote. As I said earlier wagon ho.

This is a bad post. What you have basically just done is said that you have a town feel for 5 players and yet you're voting someone for saying they're reading one person as town somewhat strongly. I find this awfully hypocritical to vote for someone who has given out one town read when you have five and this looks like one of those posts where scum be like 'Hey, look at me having lots of reads on people and engaging with the game' when actually you're not saying a whole lot. It's also ;pinging that you clearly opted to avoid using the word 'town' when referring to those 5 people and instead went with 'figuring the game out'.

This strikes me as empty given how early in the game it is. "town feel for 5 players" =/= "vague interest in figuring out the game". imo seems like a decent way to start attacking the game for FP. Going from that to "awfully hypocritical" to vote someone for having a strong early townread. Like you're reading into it way too much or you're bullshitting man, come on there.

I'm finding FancyPants interesting too.

What does interesting mean? Scummy? Towny? What?

Another empty question. "Hey guys I'm doing something without giving an opinion"

And a lot of posts are empty questions like that. That's the sort of thing I do when I want to make it look like I'm active but am prod dodging in reality.

So many interesting players, this is gonna be exciting.
After an initial readup I got many townreads but some of them are slight.
Strong townreads are fitz and boring.
Townleans on Grey and Alisae.
Mixed feelings about mozamis, LUV and FP, will need more time to sort them out.

VOTE: mozamis

Very little substance in his posting, looks like coasting scum

Talk about your reads on Grey and fitz please? I'm super surprised that out of those 3 people you chose to vote for Moz. Why does scum!Moz go against the thread and start defending Alisae based on nothing?

OK, this game feels really weird and I agree with FP that I think scum are laying low.

There are so many people not scum hunting/contributing to the game that it's very difficult to form town reads.

VOTE: Grey

This game needs a serious wagon.

And this doesn't really follow, given where your attention seems to have been. Plus, as far as I can see, you're doing the same thing you criticized FP for.

Tl;dr

Lots of noise, not a lot of signal, scumlean.

[SnarkySnowman]

He looks like he's genuinely scumhunting.

What does 'genuine' scum hunting look like? And how would you differentiate that from 'fake' scum hunting?

Nonsense question asked a lot in a lot of games, and I've never really seen an answer that doesn't boil down to "gut" or "tone".

OK well not much to go on thus far. Let's take a stab then.
Alisae, Havingfitz, Empking, Grey, Hawk all seem to have some vague interest in figuring out this game at least.

ConManMick and boring haven't done much. LUV I'm not sure about.
Mozamis making some really early town reads, makes me suspect he

knows

who town are. Surety is scummy.

Therefore I'm happy with my vote. As I said earlier wagon ho.

This is a bad post. What you have basically just done is said that you have a town feel for 5 players and yet you're voting someone for saying they're reading one person as town somewhat strongly. I find this awfully hypocritical to vote for someone who has given out one town read when you have five and this looks like one of those posts where scum be like 'Hey, look at me having lots of reads on people and engaging with the game' when actually you're not saying a whole lot. It's also ;pinging that you clearly opted to avoid using the word 'town' when referring to those 5 people and instead went with 'figuring the game out'.

This strikes me as empty given how early in the game it is. "town feel for 5 players" =/= "vague interest in figuring out the game". imo seems like a decent way to start attacking the game for FP. Going from that to "awfully hypocritical" to vote someone for having a strong early townread. Like you're reading into it way too much or you're bullshitting man, come on there.

I'm finding FancyPants interesting too.

What does interesting mean? Scummy? Towny? What?

Another empty question. "Hey guys I'm doing something without giving an opinion"

And a lot of posts are empty questions like that. That's the sort of thing I do when I want to make it look like I'm active but am prod dodging in reality.

So many interesting players, this is gonna be exciting.
After an initial readup I got many townreads but some of them are slight.
Strong townreads are fitz and boring.
Townleans on Grey and Alisae.
Mixed feelings about mozamis, LUV and FP, will need more time to sort them out.

VOTE: mozamis

Very little substance in his posting, looks like coasting scum

Talk about your reads on Grey and fitz please? I'm super surprised that out of those 3 people you chose to vote for Moz. Why does scum!Moz go against the thread and start defending Alisae based on nothing?

OK, this game feels really weird and I agree with FP that I think scum are laying low.

There are so many people not scum hunting/contributing to the game that it's very difficult to form town reads.

VOTE: Grey

This game needs a serious wagon.

And this doesn't really follow, given where your attention seems to have been. Plus, as far as I can see, you're doing the same thing you criticized FP for.

Tl;dr

Lots of noise, not a lot of signal, scumlean.

[mozamis]

Can we just lynch King already?

No. I am sick of these rushed lynches, they ALWAYS end up in a mislynch. Why are you in such a rush anyway?
Maybe his vote on Ali was opportunistic. But I want to hear more from him before we just quick lynch him.

[boring]

By all accounts, he's acted incredibly scummy, but why would scum be so painfully obvious? His reasoning has been simultaneously stiff and moony, which tells me it's just him (regardless of alignment). So clumsy scum or derpy town? You tell me.

He always strikes me as scum, especially so on d1.

It makes no sense, though, that you'd be thinking he was Scum AND voting on the same wagon he was.

Cool beans. I'm glad we've cleared that up.

[-Grey-]

By all accounts, he's acted incredibly scummy, but why would scum be so painfully obvious? His reasoning has been simultaneously stiff and moony, which tells me it's just him (regardless of alignment). So clumsy scum or derpy town? You tell me.

He always strikes me as scum, especially so on d1.

It makes no sense, though, that you'd be thinking he was Scum AND voting on the same wagon he was.

Cool beans. I'm glad we've cleared that up.

Not really?

[boring]

bit of a vague memory now, but he seemed questioning and engaged in the game.

Can you follow up after you've caught up to the present?

[mozamis]

@ Ali - why are you talking about the masons? I don't think it's a great idea.

[mozamis]

bit of a vague memory now, but he seemed questioning and engaged in the game.

Can you follow up after you've caught up to the present?

Got sidetracked earlier by coffee and music

[boring]

That quote you quoted was lobbed at FancyPants, by the way.

Are you suggesting that your treatment of non-replacement catch-ups depends on the person rereading the game? Because that's not the way your post originally read.

I'm not sure what you're saying I'm saying.

I was saying that I've never seen town summarize a game they're already in unless prompted by request. I've definitely seen scum do it, though. From a scum buddy, I've had it explained that it makes you look like you're trying to solve the game.

[boring]

@snarkysnowman, if you were to place a vote at some point, would it be on BBT, or is someone else worse to you?

[Alisae]

@ Ali - why are you talking about the masons? I don't think it's a great idea.

I was bring too much attention to it, so I figured it would be a better idea to out the theory instead of keeping the information hidden from town.