Open 665 - Friends and Enemies - Game Over! Town Victory!!!

[-Grey-]

That quote you quoted was lobbed at FancyPants, by the way.

Are you suggesting that your treatment of non-replacement catch-ups depends on the person rereading the game? Because that's not the way your post originally read.

I'm not sure what you're saying I'm saying.

I was saying that I've never seen town summarize a game they're already in unless prompted by request. I've definitely seen scum do it, though. From a scum buddy, I've had it explained that it makes you look like you're trying to solve the game.

So, why does it make any difference who you were directing that comment to, then?

[boring]

Can we just lynch King already?

No. I am sick of these rushed lynches, they ALWAYS end up in a mislynch. Why are you in such a rush anyway?
Maybe his vote on Ali was opportunistic. But I want to hear more from him before we just quick lynch him.

You've actually got a point. the "can we lynch this already?" line is something lazy town and scum use a lot to look like they're pushing. Right or wrong, pushes give town-cred, right?

So what do you think are the chances that LUV and Emp are TvT, SvS, or either combo of SvT given the sheep and stall of his wagon?

[mozamis]

Doesn't change the fact that you're scum.

You seem really definite about this. How confident are you? I can see him being a bit suspect maybe. But you seemed to have gone onto overdrive on him.

[-Grey-]

Speaking of FancyPants...

@mod

: please prod

[mozamis]

You're lying.

So do you think Uzi is scum?

[boring]

That quote you quoted was lobbed at FancyPants, by the way.

Are you suggesting that your treatment of non-replacement catch-ups depends on the person rereading the game? Because that's not the way your post originally read.

I'm not sure what you're saying I'm saying.

I was saying that I've never seen town summarize a game they're already in unless prompted by request. I've definitely seen scum do it, though. From a scum buddy, I've had it explained that it makes you look like you're trying to solve the game.

So, why does it make any difference who you were directing that comment to, then?

I guess it doesn't. I had him in mind when I said it, so in my head, it was directed at him. It's curious that you took it to heart as being about you *queue Carly Simon*.

So is this a tunnel? I feel like you're not asking really productive questions. I mean, sure, we're interacting, but it just seems like you're asking the wrong questions for someone trying to get a read. It's more like you're trying to find chinks in my armor. As if I'm some huge townread that you need to knock down a little.

You never chimed in about BBT, by the way.

[mozamis]

Why? You don't strike me as the type to handle scumspects with kid gloves, so your behavior isn't matching up with this post.

What are insinuating with this? Do you seriously suspect her as scum?

[boring]

@Empking, I hope I answered your question largely by proxy. I didn't have any town vibes from you, and I wanted to see what would happen if I sheeped. It clearly made other people feel comfortable sheeping, and then the wagon stalled. I guess no one else finds you that scummy (or you're scum).

[-Grey-]

I guess it doesn't. I had him in mind when I said it, so in my head, it was directed at him. It's curious that you took it to heart as being about you *queue Carly Simon*.

That's a misrepresentation of my posts. I never "took it to heart as being about" me. I was asking why you had behavior that is inconsistent with your stated belief.

A question you've never really answered, btw.

[-Grey-]

So is this a tunnel? I feel like you're not asking really productive questions. I mean, sure, we're interacting, but it just seems like you're asking the wrong questions for someone trying to get a read. It's more like you're trying to find chinks in my armor. As if I'm some huge townread that you need to knock down a little.

It's not a tunnel. It's an examination.

I townread you quickly on my initial read through because of a theory. That theory was undermined after my reread which suggested a different, conflicting theory that makes it impossible for both theories to be true.

So, I have to figure out not only which theory is more likely to be true, but what that means about the players involved in the faulty theory.

[boring]

I guess it doesn't. I had him in mind when I said it, so in my head, it was directed at him. It's curious that you took it to heart as being about you *queue Carly Simon*.

That's a misrepresentation of my posts. I never "took it to heart as being about" me. I was asking why you had behavior that is inconsistent with your stated belief.

A question you've never really answered, btw.

Okay, You're driving at something, and I'm clearly missing what it is, because I feel like I've answered in so much detail that it's practically derailed the game. Please rephrase your question. You don't have to quote if you can't, being that you're phone-posting, but express your question clearly. Specifically, I need you to define the "behavior" and the "stated belief" for me.

[mozamis]

So, he's obvious as scum, but he's also "cleverer than he gets credit for".

Yeah. That's not contradictory at all.

No, you've misunderstood i think. She said he was obvious as scum in his FIRST game as scum. But in GENERAL is clever. Implying over time he could develop into a decent scum player. That's what I got from it, anyway.

[-Grey-]

@Toffee, I don't like summary posts from people who aren't sub-ins. It creates an illusion of participation, and it's pretty close to solidifying as a scumtell for me. So is an immediate "yup, you're town" when you voice concern about that player. It seems aimed to appease.

If this is true, I don't see why you'd keep such a non-committal vote on Empking after I, a player you were already suspicious is, not only reread the game but came back from that reread with a totally different read on my former top scumspect.

If post 194 was true, I'd have expected more than a couple half-hearted questions.

Ergo, your actions are not in sync with your stated beliefs.

[-Grey-]

Spoiler: The interaction in question

Reads as of reread up to page 8:

{boring,

Alisae

}
{BBT}
{FancyPants, havingfitz, Hawk}
{SnarkySnowman, Antihuman, Empking}
{mozamis, ConManMick}
{LilUziVert}

What the fuddruck happened here? I'm going to need you to walk me through your process going from this:

Grey, I'm flipping Green.
I was also town in that game.

My point is that YOU KNEW BEFORE THIS BULLSHIT PUSH that it was bullshit

And THAT is why Alisae is scum.

to Alisae being your top town read

as of page 8

.

This just isn't cutting it:

Grey, I'm flipping Green.

I believe you. That push is embarrassing.

I saw something that made me believe that Alisae is town that I had written off on the initial read through.

Seems pretty obvious.

I saw something that made me believe that Alisae is town that I had written off on the initial read through.

Seems pretty obvious.

And that something shuffled him from top scum read to top town read that quickly? It must have been one incredible something. I suppose that means we can look to you to help defend Alisae, should he find himself under serious fire any time soon.

I saw something that made me believe that Alisae is town that I had written off on the initial read through.

Seems pretty obvious.

And that something shuffled him from top scum read to top town read that quickly? It must have been one incredible something. I suppose that means we can look to you to help defend Alisae, should he find himself under serious fire any time soon.

Pretty much.

[mozamis]

@ boring - check out BBT's p188

Notice the way he doesnt sheep Hawk for town reading Fitz - to me, he gives the impression of someone who is thinking for himself, making his own judgements. Scum i think would be much more inclined just to sheep here i think.

[SnarkySnowman]

Hey Grey, if I said BBT was scum, would you buy it at all?

Curious for other people's opinions too.

[-Grey-]

Hey Grey, if I said BBT was scum, would you buy it at all?

Curious for other people's opinions too.

Curious for your answer to my question

[boring]

Okay, Grey, I think I finally understand your question. You want to know why I've been so easy on you when I've clearly noticed issues with your play, and have clearly scumread you at some points. Because I'm getting a feel for you. I've also been doing a lot of fishing for things I can use as anchors later.

I've not hard pushed anyone yet, and I haven't seen anyone I've been really ready to lynch. You included. There's no inconsistency between my stated beliefs and my behaviors when you consider that I'm still investigating. I never said, "come on everyone, I've caught scum here, let's light this mo'fo' up like it's Walmart". I've just bumbled along.

For example, I pointed out that your activity at the moment was more likely to be scum-motivated than Snarky's absence. I was looking to see what kind of response I'd get from the player voting Snarky for that reason. I was ignored. That's data. I'm throwing things out there, and trying to produce/gather as much info as I can, so I/we can use it to pin down scum. Committing you to either discuss or stick to your read on Alisae is far more important in the long run than harassing you in the moment. Especially when I'm still working to solidify reads. Honestly, if it wasn't for the benefit of voting for reactions, I'd not have placed a vote yet.

My very first game of mafia, this point was driven home for me: "behavior isn't alignment indicative, only motivation". While that infuriated me at the time, being stuck as scum my very first game, it's incredibly useful to remember while scum hunting.

So you next question might be, "where's the follow up, then?" To which I've already replied in a previous post, "give me time."

p-edit: Snarky, I've entertained the thought.

[boring]

@ boring - check out BBT's p188

Notice the way he doesnt sheep Hawk for town reading Fitz - to me, he gives the impression of someone who is thinking for himself, making his own judgements. Scum i think would be much more inclined just to sheep here i think.

Maybe, but I feel like that's a bit of a stretch, if you're defending BBT as town.

[-Grey-]

I saw something that made me believe that Alisae is town that I had written off on the initial read through.

Seems pretty obvious.

And that something shuffled him from top scum read to top town read that quickly? It must have been one incredible something. I suppose that means

we can look to you to help defend Alisae

, should he find himself under serious fire any time soon.

After all the questioning you've done of Alisae, the bolded doesn't fit.

I'm not sure what's not to understand. I want to lock you into your statement.

Sweet, I managed to cut the wall before my browser froze.

I'm not getting your use of the collective "we" because according to my understanding of the game, there is no "we" between you and Alisae and I don't get why you'd use that term in that situation otherwise.

[boring]

It's just the way I speak when I'm being a touch condescending, I suppose. Like "are we feeling well?" and "we're going to need you to sit down, now, sweetie." I think it's pretty normal for old ladies like me.

[-Grey-]

It's just the way I speak when I'm being a touch condescending, I suppose. Like "are we feeling well?" and "we're going to need you to sit down, now, sweetie." I think it's pretty normal for old ladies like me.

Maybe

, except... why would you look to me to help defend someone you've been questioning?

Why do you assume that I would defend someone simply because I townread them? What gives you the basis for that belief?

[Empking]

He's just said he'll post some insight tomorrow though.

UnFOS: Blue, Anti

Unvote
Vote: Alis

Is the basis for your vote her not voting?
If so, why did you choose her and not LUV?
If not, what are the other reasons?
Do you usually prefer to join existing wagons or create them?

NV (5) - BlueBloodedToffee, Alisae, Antihuman, SnarkySnowman, Lil Uzi Vert

FOS: Everyone n this list

Why?
I unvoted so that I could reread and re-evaluate the game.

That's no excuse. Throwing away pressure is only pro-scum.

Why Al over LUV? Gut or arbitrariness, it could have gone either way but I leant a little to Al. I didn't even notice the wagon, as hard as that is to believe, as the huge numbers of not voters stood out to me and I immediately reacted.

I usually prefer joining wagons - all else be equal - but my priority with two weeks to go is my biggest scum read.

- Right here, you tried. No one asked you why you were voting for him, you were asked why you FoS'd everyone who wasn't voting.

- Now you're voting Ali for mason hunting? Bullshit, he wasn't accused of that earlier.

This is another lie. I have never said that my vote was put on Ali for mason-hunting. You've just quoted my explanation for her obver LUV. owever, with your constant lying, then you're still getting beaten by Ali for Mason-hunting.

- That's not even the original question you asked. You asked what was wrong with your jump on Ali and I said it was suspicious. I didn't state anything wrong with your jump beforehand so I never even repeated myself. Regardless, it's me explaining why I voted you for your jump on Ali. Your dislike of it doesn't mean it isn't valid.

This is arguing semantics. "You didn't say scummy, you said wrong-with"!

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Hi

Spoiler:

On the topic of fitz vs BBT (p9):
I understand fitz's logic and I can see why BBT dislikes it. This argument looks TvT.

I dislike Alisae's jump back onto the Grey wagon in #201. She was supposed to re-evaluate her reads but instead saw the Grey wagon was getting traction again and jumped with low effort. The reason for her vote being a meta read so I don't see why she unvoted at all. Not enough to scumread her yet though.

mozamis, don't think I will let you slide on not taking a stance on the Ali vs. Grey 1v1.

Hang on, still catching up! Gut is telling me town on town. Most epic in thread fights always seem to be.

This post's terrible. There's like 3 different stances you've just presented at once:
1. I still haven't decided
2. I've personally judged it looks TvT
3. I'm using a meta tell

Seems fabricated.

Need more from a lot of people, but since he has given out "nervous scum" vibes, AND he is lurking:

VOTE CONMAN MICK

Where does he come off as nervous? I had the exact opposite feeling.

Not sure how I feel about Ali, let me read again

We're on page 10. I don't get the catchup posts. It'll take you what, 10 minutes to re-read the game? That's assuming you read as slowly as I.

Guess how long it has taken me to read properly when I replaced in (there were roughly 6 pages). Spoiler: 2 hours.

Ugh and now Alisae has given up her strongest scumread (#251). Not sure how I should read that, especially followed by that atrocious SS vote. Is he a tunnelling townie who's finally noticed he's wrong or is he scum acknowledging his push has lost its meaning?
Alisae explains his SS vote was purely for pressure but what good is it when you've openly admitted it?
Not sure if all this can be called a playstyle thing.

Not a fan of Hawk's #283-#284. Looks like insecure scum buddying.

Alisae's jump on Empking (#290) makes me think that's just his playstyle (inexperienced townie going for low-hanging fruit). Grey, can you confirm that since you know him?

Ok now the King wagon is getting a little bit ridiculous. 4 bare pressure votes, how is that supposed to work?

Join me on King.

Sure, Empking hasn't done anything to leave the bottom half of my nebulous read cloud yet.

VOTE: Empking

Why are we voting him in particular? I saw you mention the jump on Alisae and shade-throwing. It's kind of meh. I suppose those are things that happened, but surely, other people have been scummy too. Who's your second highest read?

I wanna sheep this shit as well. I also don't particularly townread them for fosing people who aren't voting when we're less then 10 pages in. Seems like kinda a shit reason to fos a group of people to me.
VOTE: Empking

Don't you scum lean him for that then?

Honestly I still don't have the best reads but I wouldn't mind hearing more from Emp.

VOTE: EmpKing

This is the epitome of opportunism

Hey Grey, if I said BBT was scum, would you buy it at all?

I wouldn't (for now)

Naked voting without a follow up isn't pressure.

Ok then please enlighten me how is this:

Join me on King.

Sure, Empking hasn't done anything to leave the bottom half of my nebulous read cloud yet.

VOTE: Empking

Why are we voting him in particular? I saw you mention the jump on Alisae and shade-throwing. It's kind of meh. I suppose those are things that happened, but surely, other people have been scummy too. Who's your second highest read?

Join me on King.

Sure, Empking hasn't done anything to leave the bottom half of my nebulous read cloud yet.

VOTE: Empking

Why are we voting him in particular? I saw you mention the jump on Alisae and shade-throwing. It's kind of meh. I suppose those are things that happened, but surely, other people have been scummy too. Who's your second highest read?

I wanna sheep this shit as well. I also don't particularly townread them for fosing people who aren't voting when we're less then 10 pages in. Seems like kinda a shit reason to fos a group of people to me.
VOTE: Empking

Don't you scum lean him for that then?

Honestly I still don't have the best reads but I wouldn't mind hearing more from Emp.

VOTE: EmpKing

Any different from King's vote on Alisae?

Do you really want me to say it?

I know what you're hinting at and if so, you're wrong. I would've mentioned her by now.

Do you want me to say it, yes or no?

Just say it

Okay.
You, BBT, and boring are masons.

Unless this was reaction test, it was awful. I'm gonna classify you as derptown for now.

King, I didn't say you were suspicious, I said your vote for Ali was. I found it suspicious because you had FoS'd everyone who wasn't voting before you casted your vote without giving them a reason to engage with you or the game itself. It looked like you did a quick skim of those same people and picked Ali because you thought he was low-hanging fruit and you wouldn't get too much flak for jumping on his wagon.

Ok this actually looks plausible. But this:

You even tried to justify it by siting your meta when no one had asked you why you were joining his wagon.

Isn't since it was me who asked King about his wagon tendencies:

He's just said he'll post some insight tomorrow though.

UnFOS: Blue, Anti

Unvote
Vote: Alis

Do you usually prefer to join existing wagons or create them?

But it seems he's ignored my other questions, unless I missed it.

Yeah the last two pages are really making me concerned about Ali but you just can't tell with him. It would've been nice if we had a cop in this setup.

Relying on prs to solve the game is weak.

Grey still looks town, maybe even more so.

Well first off, boring's vote on King wasn't naked. Second, while she didn't follow up with questions for him, she did try to understand all of my points and even asked for an alternative which I assume was incase she wasn't satisfied with my answer. Her vote for him may not scream town but it sure doesn't feel scummy to me.

I missed a few of your questions toward him and for that I apologize.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

What are people thinking about BlueBloodedToffee?

Null. I think he has good intentions with his questions but his call for a Fitz lynch doesn't sit well with me.

Can we just lynch King already?

No. I am sick of these rushed lynches, they ALWAYS end up in a mislynch. Why are you in such a rush anyway?
Maybe his vote on Ali was opportunistic. But I want to hear more from him before we just quick lynch him.

I'm not in a rush. I just hate long days, especially when I strongly feel like I've caught scum.