Open 665 - Friends and Enemies - Game Over! Town Victory!!!

[Antihuman]

I'd be ok with Hawk being a compromise lynch closer to the dl but not feeling that great about lynching hm right now. I mean yeah, he's not been very towny but from my experience lynching people just cause they're not very useful usually ends up as a ml. Part of the reason moz's a temp park on my side (I think).

[havingfitz]

lynching people just cause they're not very useful usually ends up as a ml. Part of the reason moz's a temp park on my side (I think).

Are you saying you feel the same way about your moz vote as you would voting Hawk?

[Antihuman]

Similar

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Antihuman, what you just said makes no sense.

Nobody is offering Hawk as a 'compromise lynch', we're lynching him because he is scum.

[Antihuman]

You misunderstood
I'm saying Hawk's a mediocre lynch atm and you're stuck in confbias if you think this is the optimal lynch right now

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm stuck in conf bias for someone who became my scum read ~3 hours ago? Mhm, sure.

Why are you suggesting that Hawk is not the optimal lynch? What is the optimal lynch and why?

[boring]

I think I could lynch Hawk today. In answer to Fitz's question, I wasn't voting yet because I wanted some more activity from missing players, and I wanted to narrow down my scum pool a little further before voting again. The Hawk vote has me feeling a little better about BBT (I admit, it could just be because he's saying some of what I was thinking).

Hawk is just being lurk-scum, and therefore less of a threat than an active scum. However, I think any scum lynch is a good one.

VOTE: Hawk

My reads ATM (subject to reshuffling, as I have 5 iso's left):
{Snarky}
{havingfitz, -Grey-, LUV, Alisae}
{ConMan, BBToffee, Mozamis }
{FancyPants, Antihuman}
{Empking, Hawk}

I know I'm going to get crap for putting Snarky as my strongest town read. So here goes: effort has nothing to do with alignment. If he was scum, his sparse posts would be different. He's not the lowest contributor in this thread, despite being the lowest poster (I haven't bothered to check if he is, in fact the lowest poster, I'm just assuming at this point).

[Antihuman]

BBT I've already said why I don't feel utterly comfortable about lynching him right now. Nothing you've said, however, has convinced me otherwise. And no, I don't know who's scum at this state of the game.
How can you be so sure about him being scum on the sole basis he's coasting but when I voted moz for the same exact reasons you said you didn't understand my case? If coasting and fluffing's a scumtell for you how come you're only mentioning this right now? I see a lack of consistency within your reasoning. Why is that?

[havingfitz]

You misunderstood
I'm saying Hawk's a mediocre lynch atm and you're stuck in confbias if you think this is the optimal lynch right now

The same thing applies to your moz vote apparently.

Why not vote someone you do feel good about voting?

P.p.p. edit.....ffs

[havingfitz]

{Snarky}

[Antihuman]

Hawk is just being lurk-scum, and therefore less of a threat than an active scum.

Why can't he be lurk-town?

If he was scum, his sparse posts would be different.

How different?

He's not the lowest contributor in this thread, despite being the lowest poster

If effort's not indicative of alignment, how come you townread SS on the account of him not contributing the least?

[boring]

[/youtube]

Hawk is just being lurk-scum, and therefore less of a threat than an active scum.

Why can't he be lurk-town?

Because he's being lurkscum, silly!
His contributions have added up to nothing, and his timing has been suspect.

Are you town-reading Hawk? If so, please let me know what I'm missing. If not, why are you soft-defending him? Do you still think Moz is the best lynch?

If he was scum, his sparse posts would be different.

How different?

Snarky has given us non-sheep reads. For example, BBT isn't exactly a heavy favorite for today's lynch. He feels confident enough to pop in, say he thinks BBT is scum, and then turn his back. It's a very bold move for scum. If he was scum, he'd more more likely to sheep and agree with the majority.

He's not the lowest contributor in this thread, despite being the lowest poster

If effort's not indicative of alignment, how come you townread SS on the account of him not contributing the least?

Quality. Contributed more quality, despite is apparent lack of effort. He's not posting walls and pestering people about details, but he's done enough to look town to me.

[havingfitz]

So here's an observation I'm curious about...

lynching people just cause they're not very useful usually ends up as a ml. Part of the reason moz's a temp park on my side (I think).

Are you saying you feel the same way about your moz vote as you would voting Hawk?

Similar

It doesn't seem like you are considering your moz vote the same way you are the current Hawk wagon.

Mixed feelings about mozamis, LUV and FP, will need more time to sort them out.
I'm not too keen on elaborating at this stage cause it makes it easy for scum to tailor their play. But I'm keeping a spreadsheet so if you think you can call me out on empty reads, I can prove your wrong anytime

VOTE: mozamis

Very little substance in his posting, looks like coasting scum

I'd still prefer people switched onto mozamis for now.

Difference being you encouraging people to join you on moz while showing pessimism towards the Hawk wagon.

[Antihuman]

.

Are you town-reading Hawk? If so, please let me know what I'm missing. If not, why are you soft-defending him? Do you still think Moz is the best lynch?

I'm not townreading him but I feel like his lynch's just "too easy". I can't recall the last time I lynched somebody for 'not being towny enough' and they actually flipped scum. Which is also why I'm not too happy about my prolonged stay on moz's wagon

.

Snarky has given us non-sheep reads. For example, BBT isn't exactly a heavy favorite for today's lynch. He feels confident enough to pop in, say he thinks BBT is scum, and then turn his back. It's a very bold move for scum. If he was scum, he'd more more likely to sheep and agree with the majority.

I can see your reasoning but I don't think this is necessarily a rule. However, I don't see him as scum too.

[Antihuman]

@fitz I've literally admitted my moz vote was subpar in retrospect

[mozamis]

catching up

[Hawk]

Fancypants I liked his post 20 and post 89. Reading that as not pro-town says he possibly wasn't super aware of the player list or at least didn't want to draw attention to that reaction test obviously like Uzi did. Not sure if this means he's town or not but at least he's not reacting too quickly.

Man, I cant disagree with this part of the post any more than I do. Scum wouldn't want to draw attention to a reaction test (in the hopes that a Mason outs themselves) and they also wouldn't want to react too quickly (scum usually let town react first to try and gauge the flow of the thread). Your town read on FP makes no sense to me at all.

89 I like cause taking a stab at early reads when RVS is kinda naturally winding down is good for generating discussion even with soft reads. This is town to me.

He took a stab at early reads....after scum reading someone for stating an early town read. You don't have a problem with that?

Fritz seems to genuinely trying to ScumHunt so I do like that.

Second time I have seen this - where is fitz 'genuinely' scum hunting?

Hi Hawk, I see you posted on page 11 but did not respond to my questions for you.

So I have reposted them to give you a second chance.

Sorry guys I will respond and get a full reads list after this.

Question 1: FP seemed town to me I haven’t had a chance to play catch up so this isn’t necessarily how I feel now. Your argument here by the way is WIFOM. Saying Scum wouldn’t want to draw attention to a reaction test is as easy to say as Scum would want to draw attention to reaction test. One type of scum is LAMIST the other is opportunistic.

Question 2: Nope not really, it’s still well within RVS when this post was made. Gut reading a strong early town read as a scumslip is fine nothing out of the ordinary depending on playstyle. At this point I don’t think anything has been said well enough for him to have anything but gut impressions or soft reads, but the action and motivation behind making an early list, sticking his neck out there and then if we had pressured him had him defend those early reads is town to me.

Question 3: Fitz post immediate before the one you quoted his 138 influenced that comment the most. I think the vote plus the questions leading up to it in posts 16, 23, and 33 all led fairly nicely towards trying to find motivation from Alisae and then pressure him when he didn’t like his response. In hindsight it was probably a bit of a stretchy statement to call it scum hunting but I said it so it was how I was feeling at the time considering the information I had.

[

VOTE: Snowman

Why Snowman?

I vote here because at the time Snowman literally had 3 posts, only two if including the double post and I wanted more content from him. At the time this vote was just trying to draw someone who wasn’t posting to post.

[

Honestly I still don't have the best reads but I wouldn't mind hearing more from Emp.

VOTE: EmpKing

This vote is disgustingly opportunistic.

Possibly, I wasn’t looking for a lynch from it I was just trying to get responses and reactions and people talking since at the time the game felt ridiculously stagnant. As well this particular vote EMP hadn’t posted much content. Just a small hint at Alisae and a shot about masons.

Sorry if the formatting is weird to look at I wasn't sure where to make the breaks for that first part of the post so I just quoted and broke up my response.

[Hawk]

His ISO is short enough to do a post by post:

ISO 3- Mentions his vote is RVS but he ses no reason to unvote. [I can think of a reason...Grey is at L-3 for no stated reason] Town reading Ali, FP and boring..

Responding to all the ones that matter. Yep unvoting when you have no vote to place otherwise feels really lax to me and not something I try to do very often unless we're being close to a hammer or if I have a new vote I just am not sure where to place it.

ISO 4- Says he is townreading Ali for gut and prior experience. Which = 3 games of which only one is done for Ali. Gives meh rationales for town reading the three above. More defense of Ali. Offers a no read on Emp (who he votes ~100 posts later). Wishy washy comments on LUV. Likes my scumhunting..

Didn't have a strong read on EMP, still didn't when I voted 100 posts later for pressure. Wishy Washy??

ISO 5- Unvotes Grey. Not voting Ali yet because doesn't feel he is scummy. [So why say yet?]. Says meta and aggression are NAI...[so why go on and on about how Ali always starts games this way? i.e. meta] Makes comments that seem to be shading mason talk for which Ali is mostly responsible for..

I say yet because exactly the feeling I was having about the Mason talk. Hindsight should have followed my gut and voted Alisae after instead of doing what I do here.... this post is awfully uncharacteristic of me to be honest. However Meta and Aggression are NAI. Not everyone else believes that though, so when people were immediately drawing attention to Alisae I made the comment I did because it seems to me like that's how he starts and whether its Alignment indicative or not you should know that its a thing. When I say I will dig deeper its because I honestly feel like maybe if it helps other people draw conclusions about a player its helpful to find that information. Not that I can read it one way or the other just that's how Alisae plays. Being able to be Aggressive or Passive as regardless of Alignment is what most players should try and do this is why I think that most of that is NAI, because good players don't let their habits create tells.

ISO 6- Explains prior mason comment about mislynches being easier if masons agree. meh. Get's where Grey is coming from. So friends now?.

No, just because I agreed with his theory doesn't mean we're friends or that I was townleaning him. You're drawing a lot of conclusions from theory posts.

ISO 10- Doesn't have the best reads....wants to hear more from Emp so follows Ali and boring onto Emp wagon. Puts Emp at L-3. [So doesn't seem to have any problem putting people at L-3 for little of no solid reasoning. With two groups of three {masons and mafia} that he is concerned could make mislynches easier putting people at L-3 for not much to go on seems careless]..

Honestly this is probably an error on my part. I wasn't treating the game as a Mason game and probably was unaware of the idea that a coordinated lynch from L-3 could be a Mason Lynch. Because typically it doesn't hurt to put people there if it would be all three mafia coordinated to lynch a ML. My bad for being careless.

ISO 12- Begs off pressure from Grey (wrt the snowman vote) and says he will find a better place for his vote {though he is not on Snowman anymore...he is voting Emp].
.

Honestly I'm going through a lot of personal stuff right now so chances are this post I had honestly forgotten I was voting EMP and thought I was still on Snowman.

[mozamis]

@ BBT - I agree that Hawk doesnt look "super-town". But where are you getting this "Hawk def. scum" stuff from?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I like to push hard when I think I'm right.

The fact that Hawk mostly just responded talking about theory makes me feel even more confident that Hawk is scum.

[Hawk]

I like to push hard when I think I'm right.

The fact that Hawk mostly just responded talking about theory makes me feel even more confident that Hawk is scum.

I'm literally at work trying to form a reads list and responded to all your call outs for early game shit. Lynch me if you want but when I flip green you'll be no closer to winning if you really are town. Which I don't think you are.

[boring]

Hawk, are you pretty sure BBT is scum? Are you planning to vote him?

[Hawk]

Hawk, are you pretty sure BBT is scum? Are you planning to vote him?

Honestly let me finish reading all the ISO's but from skimming his yeah I scum lean him. Don't like his questioning feels really busy. Naked votes with little content or reasoning around them. I'm still at work sorry if these posts are a bit lacking.

[havingfitz]

I like to push hard when I think I'm right.

The fact that Hawk mostly just responded talking about theory makes me feel even more confident that Hawk is scum.

I'm literally at work trying to form a reads list and responded to all your call outs for early game shit. Lynch me if you want but when I flip green you'll be no closer to winning if you really are town. Which I don't think you are.

Was there any suspicions towards BBT prior to him voting/pushing you? I don't recall from the ISO I did on you.

[Hawk]

Not that I posted. To be honest I don't recall BBT being very involved in the game the last time I really was caught up and got to post. something that wasn't an I promise I'll catch up shortly. I mean the last serious post I made before today I had forgotten who my vote was on. Sorry my IRL things have made me have to take a very backseat approach to my games and I haven't had a chance to dig into this game yet and post a catchup since I'm behind.