Mini 1869- camn's revenge GAME OVER!

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

Yeah, sorry, was on the phone

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

Roommate is bringing me a shit ton of taco bell for the night

[Nachomamma8]

i had taco bell tonight!

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

FUCK YEAH, THIS WENT FROM LOWKEY TO HIGHKEY JAMMING REAL QUICK (FIGHT ME I KNOW IT'S A MILLENNIAL ASS SENTENCE)

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

And honestly, if I could've had both of you, it would've made me hard as a rock.

this makes me hard as a rock

conf.scum content attemping the WIFOM and failing so horribly - keep it coming pine!

the evidence will be undeniably glaring soon enough

From my very limited experience with him, he also seemed like the type that was far more genuine as scum; he didn't try to get himself townread through gimmicks and randomposting, he had far more of an approach of "let's do our best and kill this game!!". Again, this is just from one scum QT and one scum game, but the drealmer that I was partnered with that game certainly wasn't this one; if he's scum, he's banking on a town clear though shittalking Pine (which could be a Pine coach, but coaching can only go so far) and he's doing a pretty good job of it.

So, what your saying here is that you think as scum, Dreal is more inclined to to say things "cautiously," bad word to say but I think you'll understand, in that he wants to make sure people don't get annoyed with his slot, but actually like him.

[mastina]

For Secret Agent Jin, I know you said you were done there reads-wise, but I still feel it important to vocalize my thoughts there all the same.
We've faced the Aeronaut and drealmerz choices from Pine already. If he didn't pick either of them, as unlikely as that'd be. If all of Fate/Nacho/me/Aero/dreal were for some ungodly reason town, then Pine's picks seem kinda limited, don't they? I'd instantly put Secret Agent Jin as one of Pine's top picks in this case, because Jin has the recent game history with Pine. Jin is a player that Pine would love to help teach the ropes of being scum to, and also a player that Pine could see great potential in. Secret Agent Jin is thought by many to be a lowkey player: an easy target. And yet, by and large, we've not been paying attention to him this game. He hasn't gotten much focus. He fits the profile of lurksack scum better than literally any other player--he's only cast one vote this game (less than every other player), and it was on TheRealGin-N-Tonic back when Gin was getting wagoned. (I forget if Jin was the third or fourth vote, but it was up there numbers-wise.)

He's gone a solid week without posting--yes, he was V/LA. Yes, he's being prodded. But he's not actually done anything the whole game. His Gin vote? Because "Pine would likely pick Gin", which was reasoning that was plagiarized from me. His other stances? Nonexistent, essentially, with him being wishy-washy the whole game. He hasn't taken anything resembling a strong stance, and has been a nonentity the whole game.

The counter to this? Exactly the points you raised, Nacho: he could be disinterested town. (Well Gin brought that up, too.) His play doesn't look like he's actually been taught by Pine, because if Pine were coaching him, you'd expect him to have some sort of stronger presence than what he currently has given. But that's about it.


For BTD6_maker, we get a player who is also a lowkey player. This seems to be a recurring trend in the people we've POEd the game down to: players who aren't particularly well-known, aren't well-established, who Pine would have a chance to work with. His content has been slightly more than Secret Agent Jin, but he's second only to Jin in how narrow his scope has been. He focused on a fraction of my posts to paint me as scum, ignoring the other 90% of them. He focused exclusively on me, nobody else. Until I produced something he couldn't ignore (my claim), at which point he switches to Gin, a leading wagon, without much of a thought put in. It's narrow-minded beyond what would be reasonable. He's been thoroughly unoriginal: his vote on me was hopping onto the wagon, with not much in the way of original thought, as the third voter. His switch to Gin was even worse in that regard.

The main points I can think of in his defense boil down to three basics. One, he's a total unknown to Pine. Pine had no reason to pick him at all. Two, his narrow focus feels too narrow to actually be scum--why would he act this way when it would be thoroughly unproductive and he knew it would draw attention to himself? Three, and this one's admittedly dependent on another flip, why would a scumteam including both him and drealmerz so blatantly vote together in the way they have not once but twice? Especially the Gin wagon? I mean, I can understand voting together on me for the wifom factor; Pine loves to manipulate VCA. But if the scumteam was at real risk of being caught, real risk of being found out, why would they then go on to pull a stunt making it even more obvious? Hope beyond hope it went through? Hope beyond hope that a person like me would wifom it to be town? There's so many better actions for them.

Yet I know this defense is awfully weak.


For Monokuma, well, honestly, all I can say is: regardless of their alignment, I was expecting...more. Nahdia as scum would be utterly underwhelming this game. As town, I'd expect them to be something more than this. Their posting has felt a little fake, and there's also the bad VCA in which their votes aren't good and the wagon on them looked good and the counterwagon to them looked pretty shitty.

Basically, I'm not quite sure what to think here. Nahdia is an amazing scum player. Yet I'm not feeling this is an amazing scum game from them. If they're scum, it'd have to have been an off game. Their content feels fake. They don't look like they're actually doing much of anything. They have this horrible voting record. But it's actually for these reasons there's reason to doubt them to be scum, I guess. Nahdia as scum would have an amazing game, yet Nahdia as town becomes apathetic and has trouble dealing with the game. They know how to manipulate VCs as scum, so them being caught by basic rudimentary VCA seems unlikely.

So if I had to guess Monokuma's alignment, I suppose overall it'd be town, albeit only just. I don't see their play as being the strong scum it should be, if that makes sense.

[Nachomamma8]

I will likely direct efforts elsewhere since tunneling on you on D1 is about 100000x more likely to get me lynched more than you, but I'ma also keep laying it out there as needed as I see it, so, you're going to have to bear it as well. Unfortunately, this first attempt to shake off the pressure does not bode well for the bear. (I searched for an image I wanted to go with this for a while and couldn't find it, if I am able to get it at a future point, I will link it for you.)

I liked this post, like I talked about earlier. I like that he has the sense that he's outmatched and he's still going for it; I like that he talks about shifting elsewhere and then tunnels the hell out of her for years and years and years; as scum, this post makes sense to set up backing off and so not backing off as scum seems weird while not being able to find another scumread you feel good seems just about right to me.

[Nachomamma8]

Basically, I'm not quite sure what to think here. Nahdia is an amazing scum player. Yet I'm not feeling this is an amazing scum game from them. If they're scum, it'd have to have been an off game. Their content feels fake. They don't look like they're actually doing much of anything. They have this horrible voting record. But it's actually for these reasons there's reason to doubt them to be scum, I guess. Nahdia as scum would have an amazing game, yet Nahdia as town becomes apathetic and has trouble dealing with the game. They know how to manipulate VCs as scum, so them being caught by basic rudimentary VCA seems unlikely.

This is my problems with them to a T.
I think everything they've done look scummy.
Nahdia has a strong enough scum game where she'd have to be really really really really off for her to be playing this game as scum.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

Don't know if I posted this yet, but I have the strongest feeling that Pine picked the least likely choices as the best choices...because they are the least likely.

Everyone that we POE'd are people you generally forget about, sorry to the slot, but IT'S AMAZING as scum because if you're slow coasting the game, people just expect it.

Now I mean really, it's crazy how it happens BUT people HATE LURKER LYNCHES with a passion. So would it not make sense to fill a scum team of lurking/not so much lurking players who just are forgotten, while keeping the point I made early game:

I'm actually going to argue the fact that if both of you are steller scums, he'd make sure both are town purely for the fact that he'd know you'd be at each others throats.

Take a step back and realize that Pine can use emotional ties to make it seem impossible that he wouldn't pick either of you if ya'll were that close, ergo, he set up D1 and D2 mislynches in that respect.


Even if it doesn't end up being mislynches, there will be tonnes of noise created by you two arguing.


P-Edit: Pine is this the Mastin you told me about?

I think that Pine banked on the fact that there was NO POSSIBLE WAY that we would ever work together.

Sorry for the KainTepes posting styleish but hey, kinda works

[Nachomamma8]

because if Pine were coaching him, you'd expect him to have some sort of stronger presence than what he currently has given.

Pine couldn't talk to his picks before he picked them; counterpoint to this is that it's possible that Pine picked him expecting him to be hyped about a scum pick and instead just gets a burnt out player. Coaching can't fix apathy, no matter how excellent the apathy is.

[mastina]

Taking Nacho's feedback into consideration, I'd probably have reads something like this:
TheRealGin-N-Tonic
Prism
Fate
Nachomamma8
-
Vaxkiller
SirCakez
-
drealmerz
Monokuma
Aeronaut
-
Aristophanes
BTD6_maker
Secret Agent Jin

[mastina]

I've given my feedback; I'll still be around if you post something I feel the need to comment on, but otherwise if you want me to comment on something, just to be sure, indicate to me that you want me to, because right now I'm in the stage where "I've got nothing more to say proactively", so right now anything I say will be reactively.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

Nacho, my feelings about dreal as scum ping a lot here. Tell me your thoughts because it doesn't fit with my conception that he will just yell at me saying I'm scum. It's more of a sympathetic vibe.

I honestly don't feel like it :\

you've been scumpinging me since the beginning, it's all a haze now

if I'm wrong, well, whoops

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

@Mastina

Don't know if I posted this yet, but I have the strongest feeling that Pine picked the least likely choices as the best choices...because they are the least likely.

Everyone that we POE'd are people you generally forget about, sorry to the slot, but IT'S AMAZING as scum because if you're slow coasting the game, people just expect it.

Now I mean really, it's crazy how it happens BUT people HATE LURKER LYNCHES with a passion. So would it not make sense to fill a scum team of lurking/not so much lurking players who just are forgotten, while keeping the point I made early game:

I'm actually going to argue the fact that if both of you are steller scums, he'd make sure both are town purely for the fact that he'd know you'd be at each others throats.

Take a step back and realize that Pine can use emotional ties to make it seem impossible that he wouldn't pick either of you if ya'll were that close, ergo, he set up D1 and D2 mislynches in that respect.


Even if it doesn't end up being mislynches, there will be tonnes of noise created by you two arguing.


P-Edit: Pine is this the Mastin you told me about?

I think that Pine banked on the fact that there was NO POSSIBLE WAY that we would ever work together.

Sorry for the KainTepes posting styleish but hey, kinda works

[Aristophanes]

Mastina, you noted people voting in blocks in your VCA stuff.
Why would scum vote together so often and so obviously? It doesn't make sense from a theory standpoint.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

Mastina, you noted people voting in blocks in your VCA stuff.
Why would scum vote together so often and so obviously? It doesn't make sense from a theory standpoint.

Vote Count Manipulation. Pine and I loved to fuck with Vote Count Analysis in the Hunger Games. It singlehandedly made my favorite post.

Sooo, Pine/Bulba/Blawb?

thats all you got left.

LOL.
I will eat my fucking hat if that is the scum group.

but for giggles, work me through why BlawbScum would claim a scum result on you and then BulbaScum vote Blawb?

That was the scum team (myself being blawb)

and we literally won because there was on way people saw Bulba as scum and I together.

[mastina]

Scratch that, I have one more thing to say:
Nacho, I don't think your vote on Monokuma's going to do any good.

That's not to say you need to switch to Secret Agent Jin.
I'm thinking that we've got a choice here, probably between Secret Agent Jin and Aristophanes, to be realistic. (Even I'm not sure we should lynch BTD6_maker.)
But while Monokuma's among the six, they're...honestly not someone I want to lynch. I just don't think it's the best of ideas, overall. I really do think that we've got that choice in two lynches, of Secret Agent Jin or Aristophanes. Everyone else just seems like...not a good idea.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

If Pine!scum EXPECT VCA is what I'm saying.

[Monokuma]

I loathe to respond to things specifically aimed at a particular head because it goes against how I think hydras are best played. But when pretty much the entire table is acting as if I signed up for this solo and making statements about my meta, I'm pretty much left without a choice. This is going to be the only post of the game I sign, and all I'll say is thus. mastina, it's surprising that you would expect more of me given my very recent game history which you're aware of.
-Nahdia

[mastina]

@Mastina

What you're saying there is certainly possible and more or less lines up with my thoughts on the game at the least--that might not necessarily mean you're right, but it's certainly something worth trying to go off of.

Mastina, you noted people voting in blocks in your VCA stuff. Why would scum vote together so often and so obviously? It doesn't make sense from a theory standpoint.

Doesn't make sense from a theory standpoint, says who?

Says site meta?

...Yeah. That's not going to hold. While Pine being Pine means you take a metric fuckton of salt to his words, he did in fact say he told the scum to vote together. This is an instance of him saying something that could be technically true, even if misleading--in other words, not something to discard. It's worth keeping track of, at the very least. While perhaps nothing comes of it. Perhaps the scum never were together and were spread out the whole game, as is typical. Keeping track of players voting together is still something worth doing, to track patterns, to see if any feel artificial, to see if anything done feels like deliberate scum manipulation.

These become easier to track as the game progresses. Best answer right now is: maybe they did, maybe they didn't, we're brainstorming that with our POE pool which would actually help.

[Nachomamma8]

I think that Pine banked on the fact that there was NO POSSIBLE WAY that we would ever work together.

If I were Pine, I'd pick whichever one of Mastin/Fate (strong mastin preference) weren't drafted in the first round, then I'd pick Monokuma/Prism.
And then I'd win the game.

Camn's drafting job is easy because all she has to do is pick strong town players she has to find each other.
Pine's job is trickier; he needs to pick players that 1) we aren't expecting him to pick, and 2) players that will give him a strong return. The reason why Monokuma/Prism would be such good picks is because they hate hate hate losing as scum; they'd respond well to an environment with a lot of planning and a custom built team, and they'd be able to come through during clutch moments (extremely important scum skill - can you town it up when it is needed?). Those two would be the backbone of the scumteam, and those two would be the ones that would get the win. They probably wouldn't be camn's first choices; unless she's drafting defensively (which is silly strategy) they're relative unknowns and she'd probably be focused on drafting her knowns that work well together first. The reason why you need that third player is because 1) you're taking them away with the town: allowing players with good synergy to synergize is dumb, and 2) you're focusing camn's main power roles in fewer places (she's giving the vig to someone she can trust and narrowing that pool down to 2 instead of 3 helps you limit the power a hell of a lot better). However, you know that strong player you pick is going to be under decent suspicion for most of the game (it will be hard to town as hard the other two who are synergizing AND if they live longer it will only be more suspicion), and so you're looking for a player who can set their scumbuddies up well for the rest of the game; Fate is less equipped to deal damage like that and more equipped to make the deep run himself.

Now, I have no idea what Pine's thought process would be because I haven't played with him in god knows how long but I think that's how scum should be approaching the game - you want players with strong returns. Drafting the obvious players give good returns because you're taking them away from town but drafting multiple works not so great because it will be way harder for them to make a deep run and it's doubtful camn lets him get 2 of them anyways. Drafting lurkers without strong scumreads doesn't help so much because once the strong player dust settles they're in the weakest position to actually carry through the game.

[mastina]

mastina, it's surprising that you would expect more of me given my very recent game history which you're aware of.

I read Bloodborne, because I read Varsoon games whenever I have the free time. I saw you be awesome as scum there.
You were in Gistou, as town. I saw you be good there, but not nearly AS good as you were in Bloodborne. You did what you could to be sane, to hold the game together, but it was still a mess.

Thus, regardless of your alignment, you're performing worse than expected, but if you're scum you're performing WAY worse than expected. Way, WAY worse than expected.

[Nachomamma8]

I loathe to respond to things specifically aimed at a particular head because it goes against how I think hydras are best played. But when pretty much the entire table is acting as if I signed up for this solo and making statements about my meta, I'm pretty much left without a choice. This is going to be the only post of the game I sign, and all I'll say is thus. mastina, it's surprising that you would expect more of me given my very recent game history which you're aware of.
-Nahdia

It's very awkward playing with a hydra that pretends it's one player.
I don't know Road Kamelot at all and the hydra as a whole feels very... you? (whether that's correct or wrong as hell) so far even though hey, I don't really know you. I find that meta is useful because it helps me from falling into obvious pitfalls sometimes (and guides me into others often), and as I'm trying to get into your slot's head and go "would Monokuma do this as scum...?" it's impossible to disconnect the "would Nahdia do this as scum" parts completely.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, my feelings about dreal as scum ping a lot here. Tell me your thoughts because it doesn't fit with my conception that he will just yell at me saying I'm scum. It's more of a sympathetic vibe.

I honestly don't feel like it :\

you've been scumpinging me since the beginning, it's all a haze now

if I'm wrong, well, whoops

The other piece of drealmer is he gets bored quickly and complains when days aren't ending quickly enough.
It's part of the "burn out" aspect - he loves games when they're shiny and new but when that initial luster wears off it's incredibly hard to build that motivation up again.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

So it's monkey in the middle then nacho @ post1670