Star Wars Rogue One [GAME OVER]

[mastina]

This game is boring. How dare you people make Star Wars boring!
Not really liking LUV, and I completely do not buy Drunken Piper's post restriction. It looks a LOT like something fabricated to excuse minimal content.
Drunken Piper, please discuss your restriction, or confirm that you're just dicking around.
VOTE: Drunken Piper
Pine

First instinct says this is scum Pine, will have to read to be sure.

[mastina]

Leader vote: Infinity

.
This works for now. Also,

Any posts of mine in particular giving you that gut feeling?

...This? Probably not town.

[mastina]

(Would definitely also leader-vote Drunken Piper. Probably would do the same for Heartless, but I need to make sure this isn't their scumgame.)

[mastina]

Hello mastina!

Hi there! I kinda think you're town. I'm also thinking Heartless is town. Infinity and Drunken Piper are also town.

I'm not really sold on anyone being scum right now (though I think the LUV slot and the Pine/Gin hydra might be), but then again I'm just reading from late page 18 onward right now, so I haven't read the game. If you want to influence me, now's the best time! Just tell me what's happened and what you think of what's happened, and we'll see how that works out.

[mastina]

VOTE: Pine

VOTE: Sircakes
Nooooooooooooooöoooooooooooooo

VOTE: SirCakez

Town.]

VOTE: infinity

Town?

First!
VOTE: Pine
I don't trust this guy.
~Think

I just saw this movie this morning. I should have a slight idea what's going on.

Scum?

[mastina]

Dead off the bat, not a good start for a large theme...

Scum.

VOTE: SirCakez.

[mastina]

Boring game is boring. Star Wars should not be boring. Moar Titus votes.

Fuckit.

VOTE: Pine.
When I get a chance to lynch a scum Pine.

Yer damn right I'm gonna take that chance to lynch his scummy ass.

[mastina]

Molla might be scum.

[mastina]

LUV is pinging me

Yeah this is "soft distancing: the game".

[mastina]

Unvote
Vote: Klingoncelt

I'd been meaning to unvote Pine-a-Tonics

While your vote wasn't horrible.

It was better on Pine.

[mastina]

Hmm. LUV

might

actually be town, here.

[mastina]

I am sorry, i am here, i have read up to page 11 but wanted to post to say that i am almost caught up but it appears that i have 3 hours left to pick up my prod. I am here.

Town.

[mastina]

Yo, Cakez wagon; you sure we can't do Kling? I could quote 389-394 but that would seem redundant since it's on the same page and all.

If I had no experience with Klingoncelt, then I would probably be okay with this.

Having experience with her, the very things you're pointing out to say she's scum make me think she's town.

Sorry.

[mastina]

(Also Nero may be town but it's a little too early to tell for sure there.)

[mastina]

How do you look at blank votes and pick what is town and what isn't town?

I use the force.

Or if you prefer, fuckin' voodoo shit.

[mastina]

Infinity
Drunken Piper
alban
Aeronaut
AJ the Epic
Indigo
Heartless
Desperado
Titus
Klingoncelt
LUV
Nero
Molla
The Thinker
SirCakez
Pine

Here we go.

[mastina]

Actually no, that answer means absolutely nothing. I'm still content with my question until I get a real answer.

It was a real answer!

I'm force-sensitive! I know things.

[mastina]

I've read a lot of your articles and wiki links and I expect you to follow your own advice in looking in the motivations behind the post and not at face value.

First rule of mastina: do as I say, not as I do.
Second rule of mastina: If it doesn't look like I am doing as I am saying, there's at least a 50% chance you're reading it wrong and I am in fact doing exactly as I say.

Granted, there's the 50% chance that I did in fact not follow my own advice, but this? Not one of those times.

Think about that for a moment.

[mastina]

Okay no, seriously. How did you judge RVS votes as town/scum?

I'm force-sensitive, I told you already. I used the force.

[mastina]

hey mastin im kind of sick and i might puke on you

I'm always up for some word-vomit if you'd like to, but otherwise I must decline: as the only one in my family who

hasn't

gotten sick, I'd rather not inherit it from you.

[mastina]

@ Mastina I don't buy the Cakez wagon as a righteous town wagon at all and I have no clue how you've arrived at that interpretation.

Well SirCakez is scum, so there's that. There maaaaaaaaaaaaaaay be bussing involved in the SirCakez wagon (would have to double-check who the voters there are), but that doesn't change the fact that he's scum. Lynching scum is lynching scum.

Which, speaking of, is why I am voting Pine.

[mastina]

could you do me a solid and go over cakez?

Given that, one, there is a wagon on SirCakez, and two, SirCakez is not my current vote?

...No. I'll give you something on someone who is scum and won't be lynched without me giving you said something, but if they're just gonna get lynched without me needing to, I'm not gonna spend my time there. It's a waste of effort.

[mastina]

Why do you have Aero and Indigo so high?

Because they're town, yo.

[mastina]

At least she's Town this game.

Yes I am! You, however, are your usual scumfuck self!

[mastina]

Huh? Why not vote the bigger wagon?

Because it's Pine.

[mastina]

mastin, what do you think about LUV replacing out then staying in?

I don't think it has any relevance. I don't see it as being tied to circumstances (the only thing which changed is that I joined the game, but LUV has no reason in particular to have me motivate them), and I don't see it as alignment-indicative one way or another, so I don't think it's important in any fashion.

[mastina]

Mastina has magikal powers. She freakin'

knows.

Can't deny that.

Indeed.
By those same powers, I do deduce that you are in fact town.

[mastina]

Ooh, that's a bad vote klingon.

Yes it was; no, that doesn't mean Klingoncelt is scum. Ironically enough, quite the opposite.

[mastina]

I don't like pine's reaction to the mastin vote. But scum!pine was more cold and analytical when I played with him

Have you considered the possibility that maybe, just maybe, Pine in a different game with a different playerlist especially when he is in a hydra might have chosen a different playstyle? Especially post-mastina replace-in.

[mastina]

Why do you have Aero and Indigo so high?

Because they're town, yo.

Help me see what you're seeing.

I mean I quoted their posts where I declared them town, so.

[mastina]

ok how about pine

Let me simplify: iso them.

...Do you see any actual

good

posts made by them?

[mastina]

unless the implication is that she can only fake a correct read on you immediately. is that it?

No, the implication is that Pine's scum, hoping to get on my good side.

[mastina]

Not all scum can do that convincingly though.

It's

Pine

.

[mastina]

It's from the other head, but how about 162?

You must see something I don't.

I see a lack of original thought, mostly just sheepishly following the more experienced head in a timid way, uncharacteristic of a player like Gin. Some empty questions which don't accomplish much are basically the highlight of the post, but...empty questions being empty, they did nothing.

[mastina]

@ Mastina I don't buy the Cakez wagon as a righteous town wagon at all and I have no clue how you've arrived at that interpretation.

Well SirCakez is scum, so there's that. There maaaaaaaaaaaaaaay be bussing involved in the SirCakez wagon (would have to double-check who the voters there are), but that doesn't change the fact that he's scum. Lynching scum is lynching scum. Which, speaking of, is why I am voting Pine.

????

What's there to not get? I don't care about the wagon composition on SirCakez (though looking at Desperado's list of the names, there's really none that are incredibly objectionable--the worst is LUV and even that's possibly from town), because SirCakez is scum. It doesn't matter if his whole team were bussing him. It doesn't change the fact that he's scum.

Pine is also scum. I prefer to vote Pine, in spite of SirCakez being scum, because lynching scum is lynching scum. The who or the why isn't as important as the act itself. Obviously I'll vote SirCakez if I can't lynch Pine. That goes without saying. But Pine is the scum I would prefer to lynch, because my scumread there is not only stronger, it is also on a firmer basis (I know Pine better), with better reasons, and also on someone who WILL slip away if you let him go.

SirCakez? I can lynch him any day. Literally, any day. As long as I'm alive. And even if I'm not alive, he could probably get lynched because there's enough support for his wagon that even postmortem my words would be advocating for his death.

Pine? Nah, if he escapes, short of a cop guilty on him, he'll wiggle out of whatever we try to throw at him especially after I'm the N1 nightkill.

So while I'll vote SirCakez if necessary, as far as I'm concerned, right now...it isn't necessary.

[mastina]

Let me word it to you this way:
I go where I feel I am needed.

I am needed on Pine.
I am not needed on SirCakez.

If it turns out that I can't lynch Pine, and it turns out that I am needed on SirCakez, I will switch to him.
But otherwise, I'd prefer to go on Pine, if for nothing else to make the statement that, yes. Pine is scum.

It's not that hard a concept to grasp.

[mastina]

This is a rare gift! I shan't squander it =D

You already have.

Mod: my Rogue Leader vote should be on Infinity.

[mastina]

Mastina, why do you want to make me cry?

Because crying is reserved for the losing side.

[mastina]

Thinker who is scum?

Apparently I am by virtue of Thinker most definitely surely actually truly being town. Clearly.

[mastina]

guess it's just me. proceed as you were.

For what it's worth, Molla's strong resistance to Infinity for rogue leader is having the opposite of his desired effect.

[mastina]

because, if not, your argument of "i don't like this entire pool of people" is probably going to get repeated over and over and over ad nauseum because when you have a sample size large enough there's a good chance you'll hit a point where you won't like a person or two in the mix
^this is why ongoing wagon analysis is mostly for the fucking birds btw^

(Basically this, with an added dose of: Molla as town should already know this and thus never have made the point in the first place.)

[mastina]

Why aren't you sheeping Nero on SC if you're claiming you two are reading the game the same way?

I'm fine with SC lynch but AJ is more obviously scum

Okay, this is a flat-out scumclaim, and I'll show you why with three quotes in conjunction with this one:

Scum-AJ is on heartless tho :/

Infinity 324 (6): Desperado, Drunken Piper, Lil Uzi Vert, The Thinker, Heartless, Mastina

this list of players hardly inspires my confidence. 2 of the players on this list aren't voting for scum. Out of 3 players not voting total. seems a bit odd dontcha think

Aj The Epic [2] SirCakez, BBmolla

Do I even need to say "spot the problem" here? Because, uh...yeah. This is pretty self-evident.

[mastina]

So, as scum, I think that calling a player town is kinda buddying or pocketing to use the new jargon. I think alot of players are stupidly OMGUSY so when a scum player calls another player town then its less of a chance they get voted and I think, atleast subliminally, when a player knows they are town and are being called town they kinda go "Oh hey X is reading me correctly so they must be town too!" This is my first time playing with Mastina but I've played several times with her on the Mastin2 account and I know that she has entered the game in a similar style in the past. Was she scum that game? Town? She likely does this regardless of alignment although she's fairly scummy here.

You've got the right conclusion, but the premise is backwards:
It's true enough that as town, I'll copy my scumgame's better elements to improve my comparatively-weaker towngame. So I understand the theory behind the idea of, "She does this as scum, and thinks it is good, and applies it as town".

...However, in this particular case, it's the other way around--there is actually a very, very, very, VERY strong, clear, obvious town motive behind my actions here and in every game I use this style. So much so, that me not doing it is basically a scumclaim. So in this particular case, my scumgame needed to incorporate these elements, because if I failed to do so, then people would have an actually-valid meta tell on me. Since I'm a pretty damn self-aware scum player, I wasn't going to let that happen, and so, once I realized it was a thing I did as town, I started doing it as scum. Meaning, ultimately, yes, you're right; I do in fact do this regardless of my alignment.

[mastina]

Sometimes neighborizer sure used for that, it's easier to pressure them and sort them I guess.

In case it hasn't been expressed explicitly enough already: bad idea to aim for anything other than town.

While I recognize the theoretical gain of information, realistically:
-If you invite scum in and they share the information they receive with their scumteam, their scumbuddies are if even remotely competent going to fake ignorance.
-If you invite all town in, then the scum will be ignorant, but so too will all of the town not invited.
-As a result of this, the only way you get useful info is if a scum player not invited shows information they shouldn't have, at which point it becomes clear that scum were invited. Otherwise, there's no discernible difference between the two.

As for why not use the neighborhood to hash out reads: one, neighborhoods are insanely easy for scum to manipulate.
Two, we want to deny the scum any information gained in said neighborhood. Now, given the premise above, we won't actually KNOW if we successfully denied them said info, but we want to at least TRY to deny them that info for as long as humanly possible.
Three, and most critically of all, by the post, it's possible that being in the unit offers potential powers to the neighborhood. There is NO situation in which handing a power to a scum member would be better than handing it to a town member. (Well, unless you're talking something like a suicide gun that allows a player to willingly kill themselves, e.g. treestump. But that's about it.)

For that reason and that reason ALONE you should aim for an all-town neighborhood.

[mastina]

I think she's one of the best players on MS.

In theory, sure.
In practice, fuck no. I'm probably in the top-10%, sure, but not the top-10. (Unless as scum. Then, maybe.) I'd elaborate more about this if I didn't suddenly and inexplicably have a kitten on one of my arms hindering my typing ability.

[mastina]

Thinker, I see posts, but mostly fluff.
figuring out who you think is scum is a bit rough.

And here's the thing that's really scary:
Aristophanes is the slot producing more content.

Aristophanes

is the head of the hydra who is doing more.
Aristophanes.
The lurksack.
Whose content consists of fluff and active lurking.

Is the more active of their heads.

What does that tell you about their alignment?

[mastina]

It always gets me paranoid when people talk about how good their scum game is...

Oh. Right. I sometimes forget that people always have to have a first game with mastina at some point in their career.

So, hi, Infinity! I'm mastina. I'll just drop a nifty flowchart for ya on how to read me. It's a little bit dated in some parts, but it's more accurate than not even to this very day!

Here, for your reading pleasure, might as well quote this.

I think everyone should make one of these. Especially mastin.

Actually...I have.

I've been meaning to post it, too. It's about a year out of date, though, but I started compiling a way around Mafia with the Quickness 2 called, "How to read Mastin: the flowchart".

Spoiler: Stuff about it

The flowchart, while half a year old in its latest version, still applies more than it doesn't, by the way.
I'll condense it down for you, though:
If Mastin is scum, accept the loss; she's going to win regardless of what you do. So treat her like town.
If Mastin is town, then she is town. Treat her as town. If she wants to be listened to, listen to her and trust her instincts. If she doesn't tell you to listen to her, take her words with a grain of salt; they're reads but not solid ones.
BAM.
You now know how to treat Mastin.
Will work out for you nearly every single game.

Summary. I think I realized my problem with Mastin. Her reads are changing very quickly and they're moving on a very, very wide scale.

Helpful hint, you have absolutely no reason to trust me on this right now, but this is a MASSIVE towntell for me. On the "how to read Mastin: the flowchart" I made (I need to track down the most up-to-date version), it's one of the primary items, in fact. The reason? Town Mastin doesn't have a clue what's going on. Her reads are in a state of constant flux, specifically because of that, and her own self-doubt, paranoia, and whatnot betrays her, as she constantly second-guesses herself and reevaluates, rethinks, and redoes stuff. In contrast, scuMastin has absolute control of the game. Whereas town-Mastin is defined by inconsistency, scuMastin is defined by consistent, solid, controlled, calculated play. She keeps the same reads as much as possible, because it serves to antagonize the least number of players. She is calm, collected, and cool. She is strategic. She is focused. Her thoughts are logical and precise, because she has a good handle on the game, and thus, her mind does not betray her.

Or in short, the difference between town and scum is the difference between chaos and order. Now, obviously, this isn't absolute. There have been towngames where I've felt in control, rare as they may be. There have been scumgames where I was chaotic, either by circumstances or in one or two cases me faking my town chaos convincingly. But it IS a fairly solid general guideline. I know what I'm doing as scum; I'm just taking my best guess and throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks as town.

I bet she has quite a few "playstyles" (and she knows, I think, why I'm saying this.)

Indeed I do. Fairly certain I said so already in this game, too, the reason why: because my play in games is fluid, thanks to situational awareness. While I might not know what's going on as town, I can generally feel out the game and have an idea for what will work best, adapting to have a playstyle specific to that game. It's mildly helpful, since it lets me hone in on scum better, but situational awareness mostly helps me as scum, because as scum, adapting my play to the game when I have more info than my town self does is

lethally

effective.

Though that does remind me, I need a point in there about focusing on scumhunting.

I find her posts coming from a mostly town point of view and she has a genuine interest in finding scum.

Right, that's another one I need to add in.

How To Read Mastin

:

Are you zMuffinman?

Yes-->Screw tells, you know mastin's alignment instantly.
No-->

Are you AngryPidgeon?

Yes-->Screw tells, you know mastin's alignment instantly.
No-->

Are you a player who has hydraed or has otherwise worked well with Mastin?

Yes-->You likely don't need the chart, but because you're not that familiar with her, you should probably go through it anyway as a precaution.
No-->You REALLY need to go through the chart; proceed! But fair warning in advance that it's only about 90% accurate.

Is/Are zMuffinman/AP in the game?

Yes-->Sheep them on their read! Never doubt it.
No-->Think like them and continue on.

THE FLOWCHART:

Is it D1?
Yes-->...And you're suspicious of Mastin?!?
She's town.
No-->Is it D2? Yes-->She's prob-town.
No-->Is it D3 or later? Yes-->Proceed.

Does Mastin look town?

No-->She's town.
Yes-->Proceed to next step.

Trust her as town.

What does she do?

Get paranoid of you-->She's town.
Enthusiastically work with you-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
Nothing-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
Milk your townread and bully you-->Proceed.

Suddenly pressure her.

What does she do?

Freak out-->She's town.
Show concern, but subdued-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
Brush it off-->Proceed.

Is she posting up a storm?

Yes-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is she gloating how good her scumgame is?

Yes-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Does Mastin have delusions of grandeur?

Yes-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is she waffling...
...A lot?

Yes-->She's town.
Sorta?-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Does she look like she's trying to leave a legacy?

Yes-->She's town.
Maybe-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is she antagonizing everyone?

Yes-->She's town.
No-->Proceed.

Has Mastin rambled at all on MD theory?

Yes-->She's town.
No-->Proceed.

Is Mastin making a case for why she could be scum?
Yes-->She's town.
Kinda?-->Prob-town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is Mastin making very strong reasons why she's town?
No-->She's town.
Kinda-->Prob-town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
Yes-->Proceed.

If applicable, did she 'crumb her role and/or claim it openly and immediately?

Yes-->She's town.
Maybe-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Do the circumstances behind her play and/or claim look town?

Yes-->She's town.
Maybe-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is she irrational?

Yes-->She's town.
Maybe-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is she spewing random illogical theories?

Yes-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Does her posting look intentional?

No-->She's town.
Yes-->Proceed.

Is she spontaneous, random, and/or whimsical?

Yes-->She's town.
Maybe?-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is her tone flat?

No-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
Yes-->Proceed.

(BONUS:

If Mastin is behind, does she demonstrate knowledge of the

current

gamestate she could not reasonably have at her supposed point of reference?

No-->She's town.
It's hard to say...-->She probably does know, but not much, having likely skimmed offline, not logged in, and chose not to get the full context to spoiler her as probable-town.
Yes-->Proceed.)

And finally...

Is there minimal resistance to lynching her?

Yes-->She's town; defend her!
...Maybe?-->You've gotten this far and the best you've got is a "maybe"?!? You dummy, run through it again! (But she's probably town anyway.)-->All other factors equal, if you're having this much trouble reading Mastin, just freakin' assume she's town. (She likely is, anyway.)-->FOR THE LOVE OF GODS, SHE'S TOWN, DANG IT.
No-->She's probably scum...but you should run through the flowchart one more time just to be sure, as a precaution.

Is Mastin's posting wildly inconsistent?
Yes-->She's town.
Maybe?-->Probably town, but proceed anyway.
No-->Proceed.)

(Oh, and I think rambling in-thread's already there*, but if not, it should be.)
*Relies on scum having daychat. Scum have daychat, in-thread rambling = decent towntell. Scum don't have daychat, rambling = prob-null, maybe slight townlean. Scum daychat ambiguous, assume slight townlean.

(Oh, should be noted. Last scum, rambling in-thread gets upgraded to major towntell, since scuMastin typically keeps rambles to the scum QT about why she's screwed.)

Totally should just, in general, take this policy about me.
There's a flowchart that I plan to publish that will give better tells for reading me in general, some of which are timeless, others which are in contemporary site meta, but valuable all the same. Until it's actually published, though, the general policy I have on reading me is, increasingly, becoming:

Just assume I'm town until you have a REALLY solid reason not to. You'll be right the VAST majority of the time, by sheer probability alone.

(In fact, beyond probability. Probability says I should be scum a minimum of 25% of the time. 2014's been something like half that overall.)

It'll save you a BUNDLELOADS of headaches.

(Should be noted that my record was 34 games IN A ROW as town and my scumgame remains STILL below statistical probability in numbers.)

"If you're townreading Mastin, lynch her. She's scum, having successfully predicted your movements and is manipulating you. You fell into her trap, hook, line, and sinker.
If you're scumreading Mastin, she's town; save her from the lynch. She's probably either really onto something or really lost. In either case, she needs your help, either to sheep her or help her develop more accurate reads."

Some of them are out of date thanks to contextual meta shifts, but most of them still apply.

(Note of course that the flowchart is never 100% accurate. It's impossible, literally impossible, to display all of them in a single game since many of them are in fact slightly contradictory, but the point is to see as many as possible and if the majority matches town or scum. This chart has been in play for quite a while, now, and to this date, in spite of no active attempts to uphold it and some attempts as scum to subvert it, remains highly relevant to my play. It goes to prove my point, though: scuMastin always has this laser-like focus. Anything Goes in particular, until I faked having my confidence shattered, I was pushing for a specific lynch. In games like Resistance where I was the last living scum in lylo, I wove a narrative specific to one player being scum because I held focus. In my entire scumgame career, holding focus has done nothing but serve me well. Losing focus has done nothing but screw me over. Because guess what? People like focus. They like confidence. They love to see assurance in a read. They want to have a figure be charismatic and to follow. It's an inherent part of people's nature. That's why tunneling is so prevalent, because it works DAMN good and well to get a lynch. People hate doubt. When someone is calling everyone town/scum in rapid circles, AKA circlejerking, people think it's scum trying to mislynch anyone. They see desperation and attribute it to being scum. They don't see a town player desperately trying to figure out the game. They see a scum player that is trying to find options. So damn fucking straight. Maybe someday I'll flail as scum. It could in theory be this game. But in practice? Fuck no. As scum I'd push a lynch through; as town, here I am without a clue.)

(I really need to also add a section in there about explicitly blowing up.
I don't think I've ever thrown f-bombs around as scum freely, aside from some trolling in L4D when I literally claimed scum in-thread once I realized Molla had a guilty on me.
As town, you'll note, I go absolutely ballistic, and for damn fucking good reason. Lynching me has never done a town favors, ESPECIALLY not in the lategame.)

^That's how. ('Course, the flowchart was developed for single-ball games. I actually have no clue myself how well it does or doesn't hold up in multiball.)

(I just realized that an item not on the flowchart but which should be is how I explain my reads:
"Does she explain her reads in crystal clarity?
No-->Almost certainly town, though you can proceed as a precaution just in case.
...Maybe?-->Probably town, but proceed anyway.
Yes-->Proceed.")

Not included: "Is she doing anything?"
Yes-->Well, go read what she's doing, dummy!
No-->She's probably fighting a flake.

Doesn't tell you alignment, but is useful to have on there anyway.

It's a pleasure to meet ya. You'll get to know me better as the game progresses, especially since this playerlist is ripe full of people who know me reasonably well. Not quite to the extents of the AP and zMuffinmans listed above, but enough where they can generally give you a good idea of what is, and isn't, normal from me.

Now I

could

go telling you whether this is normal for me, but I'd prefer that not only you, but all of them, form their own conclusions on that field. Beyond me telling you of course being self-meta, there's some actually pragmatic reasons why I prefer others to do this rather than just handing them the answer. If you're looking for extra credit, you can try and figure out what said reasons are!

[mastina]

Maybe we both just suck. Did you ever think of that?

Oh, you sucking was never in question; it was a given.
The thing up for debate is whether it's town suck or scumfuck, and I'm casting my vote for the latter.

[mastina]

mastin always misreads me though, so that doesn't apply to her. she actually probably "townreads" me more as scum than as town.

I'm pretty sure my ability to correctly read you has gone up with time.

Same with Pine, really.

[mastina]

Thinker who is scum?

Apparently I am by virtue of Thinker most definitely surely actually truly being town. Clearly.

Thinker's posting continues to underwhelm. That meta defense was awful.

Yes, exactly my point.
I'm not sure how more obvious my sarcasm could've been in that post, and the fact that you're pretending to have not known it was sarcasm is one of the reasons you're scum.

[mastina]

Heartless, why are you being so mean

because i'm...

Spoiler:

Oh! Speaking of, I made this a couple days ago:

Spoiler: WARNING: Ginormous image

You can use/modify it however you like if you think it's a notable enough image.

[mastina]

@ Cakez wagon: who else will you guys lynch? It's stagnating and I don't see anyone trying to push it forward.

Aside from Pine-and-Gin, my current vote?

I'd vote The Thinker.
I've laid out my reasons for why Molla is scum.

I'm pretty sure that's our scumteam: SirCakez, Pine, The Thinker, and Molla, so I'd prefer not to vote outside of there.
MASSIVELY prefer not to vote outside of there.
Like, you could maybe talk me into spite-voting a more nullish read like LUV, but I'd vote there fully expecting a town flip rather than a scum one.

If you want to lynch scum, lynch Pine.
Else, lynch Cakez.
Else, Molla.
Else, TheThinker.

[mastina]

I don't know who I replaced

Hi Nacho! Let me summarize for ya: it doesn't matter whether you replaced alban or Gamma; you replaced town, I know you replaced town, so what I need to do is get you up to speed.

I'm town.
Heartless is town.
Desperado is town.
Other power players of note, let's see...Aeronaut and Titus are both town. Nero's a bit iffy, but I lean towards town. Pine, Molla, and SirCakez are all scum. The other notable thing you should know is that AJ the Epic is the counterwagon to a scum-SirCakez, yet AJ is town, too.

Also, we've got a special mechanic in this game to vote for a rogue leader, a neighborhood mechanic of sorts, and the person you should know about there is that Infinity is also town.

That about sums it up.

[mastina]

For TWIE, I can just point you to 925; what I say there is just as relevant to you, too.

[mastina]

Pine-A-Tonics [2] mastina, Klingoncelt
SirCakez [4] alban, Nero Cain, Lil Uzi Vert, Aj The Epic
mastina [2] Drunken Piper, The Thinker
Lil Uzi Vert [1] Pine-A-Tonics
Aj The Epic [4] SirCakez, BBmolla, Titus, Desperado
The Thinker [2] Infinity 324, Heartlesss
Not Voting - [2] Gamma Emerald, Aeronaut

Rogue Leader Vote:

Desperado (1) Infinity 324,
BBMolla (1): Titus
Infinity 324 (5): Desperado, Drunken Piper, Lil Uzi Vert, Heartless, Mastina
Nero Cain (2): BBmolla, Pine-A-Tonics
Heartless (3): Nero Cain, AJ The Epic, The Thinker, Klingoncelt

Like, this was our last-given VC and I think the votecount here kinda speaks for itself. The SirCakez wagon? Basically while there's the ever so slightest chance of Nero being scum bussing (I don't think so), or LUV being scum bussing (still don't think so), it's town.
Contrast the AJ the Epic wagon, which has SirCakez and Molla voting it back-to-back. Similarly, the Rogue Leader vote has Molla and Pine back-to-back on Nero. A fair sign Nero's probably not scum (I don't think scum would advocate strongly for a scumbuddy to be the Rogue Leader), but also a fair sign that they want to avoid giving it to Infinity, who is pretty damn solidly an all-town wagon.

[mastina]

mastina is this a "there's no way Antihero could fake this play as scum" kind of read or is it something else?

I'm quite aware that in the Heartless hydra, the quality of Antihero's scumgame improves exponentially. You might recall I almost got seriously burned by it before. (I ended up with a draw as a serial killer, but that's because the scum let me have the draw; it easily could have been a flat-out scum win.)

While it'd be a lie to say all of the people I named as town are in a 100%-town-never-lynch category, they're in the category more or less of, "town enough to be a part of my first townbloc", if that makes sense. In the particular case of Heartless: it's in their posts. The first thing of theirs I read was the readslist in 441. I looked at it and I went "oh, that's town".

And that was it, really. Like. Nothing else, that post alone. "Oh, that's town". First thought, immediately when I read that list. Instantly, it was town. Ironically enough, it's their (weaker) posting after that which is why they're

not

exactly 100%-never-ever-EVER-lynch, because in those posts I got twinges of paranoia, but I'm willing to bet on it being exactly that. I'm not sure how to better explain it than that.

[mastina]

force choke: nachomama

ITT Nero Cain claims Darth Vader and by extent, scum.

[mastina]

Infinity
Drunken Piper
Nacho
Aeronaut
AJ the Epic
TWIE

Heartless
Desperado
Titus
Klingoncelt

Nero
LUV

The Thinker
Molla
SirCakez
Pine

Thereabouts. Molla, SirCakez, and TheThinker are all pretty equal; LUV and Nero keep trading places; the lines in the town list are a bit arbitrary and I could place dividers between Drunken Piper-Nacho, Nacho-Aeronaut, Aeronaut-AJ, Heartless-Desperado, Desperado-Titus, and Titus-Klingoncelt; I cold remove the divider between Heartless and TWIE; I could keep the dividers exactly as they are and switch around almost any of the names in most sections; it's a really, really loose approximation.

[mastina]

Aren't you doing the same thing?

No. I quite explicitly APPROVE of the SirCakez wagon.
The reason I'm voting Pine is because it's Pine.

BBMolla, on the other hand, to be explicit as possible:

Why aren't you sheeping Nero on SC if you're claiming you two are reading the game the same way?

I'm fine with SC lynch

but AJ is more obviously scum

"I think SirCakez is scum, but I think AJ is also scum". Yes, this part is the same as my "I think SirCakez is scum, but I also think Pine is scum". But what makes it different?

Scum-AJ is on heartless tho :/

"I refuse to vote with my scumread".

Infinity 324 (6): Desperado, Drunken Piper, Lil Uzi Vert, The Thinker, Heartless, Mastina

this list of players hardly inspires my confidence. 2 of the players on this list aren't voting for scum. Out of 3 players not voting total. seems a bit odd dontcha think

"The names backing this wagon suck, so I won't back it".

Aj The Epic [2]

SirCakez

, BBmolla

...Yet he's backing the AJ wagon which SirCakez is on.

It's a hypocritical contradiction.
He says SC is scum, and AJ is scum.
He says he refuses to vote with scum.
Yet he is voting someone...who is being backed by someone he considers scum.

[mastina]

What does Pine have to do with your ability to read BBMolla?

Very little!

I was saying that I am better at reading Pine than I used to be; I am better at reading BBMolla than I used to be. The two are unrelated, but can be talked about together because it's the same subject at hand: my ability to read a player, and how it has improved.

[mastina]

Weren't you just saying Pine could read BBMolla? Now they're buddies?

No, I was saying I could read both Pine and Molla and both are scum.

[mastina]

Why is Aero so high and Heartless so low?

Because Aero is town and Heartless is still town but town that isn't quite as strong yet!

[mastina]

Why would scum pretend not to notice sarcasm?

Because pretending not to notice sarcasm can be convenient for them in lots of ways.

[mastina]

How often do you guess scumteams on d1?

Pretty damn often. Now I'm not saying those teams tend to be perfect--but they

are

usually around 50% accurate at

minimum

, so.

[mastina]

That, and TWIE

Because TWIE replaced Gamma who replaced Indigo who was town.

Also TWIE has towned the thread up just from his entrance alone (well, it's town if you know him anyway--the content he gave is not his scumgame and anyone who knows him, knows it isn't his scumgame), so.

[mastina]

I could also interpret a man saying "que pasa" as him saying "kay pasta." it's understandable but it's still stupid and wrong.

There's some sort of logical fallacy for this. I can't remember which one, or what it's called. But this...what would it be, misdirection? That doesn't seem like quite the word for it...is a blatant deflection from the valid point against Molla.

[mastina]

Why is Tina town?

Because I'm a Classically town mastina.

[mastina]

Stop giving non-answers.

Stop being so demanding of me.

[mastina]

what's his scumgame?

Not this.

REALLY not this.

But respectfully, I'd prefer not to disclose all of the specifics right now of why it's not this. Just trust me for now. If I need to explain it down the road, I will. I don't want to right now.

[mastina]

Heartless may actually be scum here.
But I'm going to pretend I never said that because I'd prefer treating them as town anyway.

[mastina]

i dunno what mastins talking about my scumgame and towngame are literally identical like theyre supposed to be.

...The fuck?

They couldn't possibly be more different.

This is the town-you. Through and through.

[mastina]

I would love to hear more about this as I have no clue how to read TWIE

Well this game, fortunately, you don't need to!

But for at least future game reference, I'll be sure to have tips in my posts for you when they're needed. Dead thread if need be, but I'd do it.

Now's not that time though.

Also not available for jamming given I work on Sunday and have family night Saturday; the main on-site presence I'll have is modding.

[mastina]

Sarcastic, with a hint of "fuck you I do what I want"

Kinda sorta, but it's not quite that simple.

[mastina]

but just... trust me ok?

I'm tempted to say some variant of "no", even "no ", though that'd make it clear I'm joking, just because I know your response would be humorous, but more seriously, yes.

[mastina]

No see the joke is that he wants to know how to town/scum read me and I responded by telling him what tone to read my posts in. Because I'm telling him how to read me but it doesn't help him at all because I'm being intentionally obtuse.

Yes, exactly!

[mastina]

If anything, rogue leader DP means that everyone's gotta talk in limericks all night.

If this is meant to be an argument against, it is doing an awfully poor job.

[mastina]

(Also, Aeronaut may actually be scum here.)

[mastina]

(why are you townreading someone for making a bad vote? even if it's in her meta to make bad votes, that definitely doesn't make her more town)

Debated whether or not to actually give a serious answer, but ultimately, decided:
Because.

[mastina]

Still want mastin to answer my questions in 1051, even if it isn't right now, at some point that'd be nice

Sure, some point. When I feel like it and you bring it up, I will. I don't feel like it now and don't think it's necessary to force myself to feel like it, so.

[mastina]

I read the flowchart and am now more suspicious of mastin.

To elaborate on this, mastin seems very calm and confident this game. She does seem to be lost, she's not changing reads a lot, she's not rambling, but she seems to have a good handle on it. Not everything in the flowchart pointed to her!scum, but more of it does than not.

Well honestly the reason I feel this calm and confident is because it still kinda feels like, "we're almost in the RVS", stage of the game. As in, yeah, we're out of it. We're past the RVS. But it feels like we're

just

past it. It feels like the game hasn't "really" begun, so to speak. So my reads aren't evolving as much as they would in a faster-paced game, because we're...not actually moving fast. At least it doesn't feel like we are.

The game feels stagnant. The game feels stale. The game itself feels like it's unmoving. Like very little is being done. And when the game itself feels that way...well, I have an empathetic viewpoint of the game. Regardless of my alignment (though I guess moreso as town than scum), I "become what the game deems needed". And right now, I don't really feel needed...anywhere. I don't feel like I actually need to do anything. So I'll sit back, give some commentary here and there, and mostly just note things I think may be important, commenting on what I feel like commenting on.

Which means I have to wonder where you got the idea I wasn't rambling, because that's basically the majority of what I've done? I know I certainly haven't given much game content. Well, there's been content, but not, "pushy casey" content. More, "raising points as I go, in the background" content, and even there, it's mostly, "...because?".

Butyeah. I know we've got 50 pages of game content here. But it feels like we're still in the same zone we were at the time I came in, on page 18. So in spite of there being 35 or so extra pages, the game hasn't actually changed, and as a result...neither have I. Not quite sure how to word this exactly. I just don't feel like there's been much of anything which was actually important happening. I kinda got excited, got hyped, when Nacho replaced in, but while he's posted stuff, he's clearly not yet in his stride (he's like...doing warmups in preparation for hitting his running form), and while TWIE is town, he's not exactly someone who contributes the most in townbloc discussions. Which mostly leaves Desperado and Heartless. Desperado's reads clash with mine and I don't think we have a common ground there, and Heartless is just...being weird. I've said I'll trust them. I've said I'll give them time to reaffirm they're town. But they're not the beacon of towniness I know they can be, which would allow me to easily trade off ideas with them in a back-and-forth.

Basically what I'm saying is that this game needs a jump of energy, I suppose. I don't know how to give it one. I could try and force it. But it'd feel unnatural. And it'd put me under a lot of stress which I'm not sure I can handle right now. And I'm not sure how much I could maintain it, especially during a time where I'm V/LA. Which is why I'm mostly just kinda...waiting for something to change.

[mastina]

They seem to be not super friendly and mainly I'm the one talking to her and not the other way around.

While you're my top townread, you're not someone I naturally ~feel~ the goodvibes with, the synergy. You're town, you're very town, you're someone I think is a good player, but I honestly don't know how I could go about working with you. I think you raise a lot of good points. I think you focus in a lot of the right areas. I think you're strong as an individual player, but I don't know how to collaborate with you. I don't know how to work along side with you. I just feel like. In this dynamic. If I contribute, I'll dominate, overwhelming you, pushing you, with you not being an equal. So instead, you're the one doing the most of the work.

There are players who I've never played with before that I can instantly feel synergy with. There are also players who I know well enough that even if we normally wouldn't, I can manage. And then there are players like Nacho who happen to be both, who I could work with even if I didn't know him, yet because I do it makes working with him all the easier.

Though even there, I'm not quite sure how to work with him here. Something just feels awkward. Not "off", that would imply something about his alignment, but more like...not as it normally would be. Not as naturally as it should be. I don't feel like this is an "off-game" for me. I don't feel like I'm playing like scum as town. (That being, accidentally somehow in my scum meta even as town, rather than deliberately taking elements from my scumgame as town.) I don't feel like I'm in neither my towngame nor my scumgame, either. But I do feel like it's hard to get a grasp on the exact specifics. There's difficulty, because in a sense I suppose I also haven't hit my stride. It doesn't feel natural, it doesn't feel right, it doesn't feel like I even SHOULD be giving my heart to you right now, so...I'm not, if that makes sense.

[mastina]

"There's a healthy bandwagon a cakez but just let me vote this vanity wagon" -Mastina 2017

Last I checked, there's like three or four other votes on Pine-a-Tonics.

That's not exactly what I'd call a vanity wagon, now, is it?

I was the first vote on Pine, yes. I knew I wouldn't be the only one.
Because, one, Pine had been scummy enough on his own,
And two, people would sheep me there.

Between those, it was--and still is--realistic to push a lynch through there, so.

[mastina]

I would expect a player with mastins charisma to push her strongest scumread all the time, no matter her alignment or how many votes are on that player.

^Pretty much this. One vote, ten votes, doesn't matter. I'll vote my largest scumread, unless I have damn good reason to go elsewhere.

And lynching Pine was, and still is, something I can do, and intend to do, so with them as my largest scumread, that's where my vote is.

[mastina]

Kling wagon is meh. Like I know that I said I'd be ok with her as a dl lynch but I kinda feel like her lack of doing anything and being useless is NAI. I mean it

IS

better than a no lynch but it seems like rotten low hanging fruit and there are much better lynches in Thinker or Mastin.

Almost my position, though it's more Klingoncelt is town so lynching her would be bad, the wagon is bad, and it is a pretty blatant counterwagon to Pine-A-Tonics and TheThinker, so.

And speaking of Thinker/Pine. I think Pines "don't lynch him until we can talk to him" is p bad. Like no one knows if he'll even be back before the deadline and I'm not really willing to trust his V'LA status since he's abused that as scum in Princess Bride.

You can always fix this by lynching them!

[mastina]

My paranoia of heartless is at least temporarily gone given TTH's recent posting

Basically, this. Wasn't gonna say it, butyeah.

[mastina]

{Nero Cain, Desperado, Heartless}
{Drunken Piper, Aeronaut, Titus, SirCakez, Nachomamma8, Aj the Epic}
Null: {Pine, TheWayItEnds}
{Klingoncelt, BBMolla, Lil uzi vert, mastina, The Thinker}

You realize you share half of my scumreads, right? (Molla, Thinker.) And have a third of my scumreads in your null pile (Pine), while having one of MY nulls in your scum pile (LUV)?

And for that matter, aside from SirCakez and maybe Aeronaut, your townreads are literally identical to mine?

This is what I was talking about.
You have good reads. You and I are thinking many of the same things.
Yet you and I don't seem to have the capability to actually work together.

I don't know how to fix that.

[mastina]

Klingon [5] Inf, desp,

cakez, pine

, titus
mastin [1] nero
Pine-A-Tonics [4] mastina, Klingoncelt, Nachomamma8, piper
SirCakez [1] Aj The Epic
Lil Uzi Vert [1] heartless
Aj The Epic [1]

BBmolla

The Thinker [2] TheWayItEnds, Lil Uzi Vert

Not Voting - [2]

Aeronaut

,

The Thinker

Basically, the whole Pine wagon is town.
The Klingoncelt wagon has two scum on it.
The Thinker wagon was strongly town, but has weakened. The SirCakez wagon was also town, but has disintegrated.
There's scum in the remnants of the AJ wagon (Molla), and scum not taking a stance anywhere. (The Thinker/Aero, stronger on TheThinker.)

[mastina]

^ that is what I mean by rambling

Well yes it was a ramble, but that's far from my first in the game. I've done plenty of it. That post was a classical ramble which could be viewed as nothing but a ramble. Unambiguously, with no other thing, that was a ramble, yet I've done other rambles in the game prior to that point, just less obviously so. Less words, but still rambles.

Things which were off-topic, and sometimes incoherent. That's what I basically mean when I mean ramble: something which tries to make a point, but can't make it effectively. The art of translating concepts into language. My first language isn't English; it's concepts. I think in concepts. I then have to translate said concept into English, and often the meaning I'm aiming for is lost. I've gotten at least okay at explaining this, mainly by repetition, but that's more or less the way my mind works, especially as town, and what I mean when I say that I ramble. I try to say something, I try to talk, with intention of it being something, but what that something is, it's not always exactly the clearest.

I have intent. Always, intent. There's always a plan. There's always some sort of goal I want to achieve, it's just a matter of whether I actually come close to accomplishing it.

[mastina]

Especially the buddying at the beginning

You were expecting?
You're my strongest townread.
And I think most of your reads are good.
So no fucking duh, I'm buddying you?

You'd frankly have a point if I

wasn't

buddying you given those two factors.

[mastina]

I hope my desire to correctly identify a strong player as scum is not coloring my read on you mastin
But I really do want you to be town

If you want to correctly identify a strong player as scum, you could always drop Pine from null to scum, and then bam. There ya go! Correct scumread on a strong player.

[mastina]

In terms of working together mastin, just answer the questions I ask you, and then ask me questions back. It doesn't seem that difficult to me, but maybe I'm just not understanding the situation properly.

I don't know how to answer the questions.

I know that sounds like bullshit, for something which sounds like such a simple task, but I don't know how to. It doesn't feel natural. I act as I feel like acting. I act as I feel is appropriate. I act as I feel like what needs to be done, and needs to be said. And I just...none of the questions I've refused to answer felt natural to answer. So I responded with nonanswers, if that. Some things just feel easier to do than others. Some questions feel like they're easy to answer, but are of questionable validity on whether I SHOULD answer. (For instance, why I'm townreading TWIE--I could say it, but it doesn't feel like I should.) Other questions, which I do answer, are easy enough.

My answers might be thorough, or they might be annoyingly brief. For instance, "why's Pine scum?", "because I can read him, and he's scum". Or, "because this is his scum meta". Or, "because he hasn't been town". Or similar. Those I've done and can do because they're easy enough and to me, to my eyes, it's the appropriate answer. It's not a nonanswer, because it's giving all that it feels needs to be said. That nothing extra needs to be given, what I give being enough to convey the point, to convey what's important.

Yet it feels like you want me to always, no matter what, be giving the thorough answers, and that I just can't do.

[mastina]

I mean there was a 5 man wagon on SC. She came in and was all like "lets vote Pine!" Essentially all wagons do start out as vanity wagons. She's saying that her vote on Pine was

NOT

a vanity vote since she's now being sheeped and I'm just not the biggest fan of the explanation.

Well it wasn't.

I voted Pine expected to be followed.

Do you, realistically speaking, expect to be followed with your vote on me?

Because I did feel like I'd be followed when voting Pine. I figured I might need to provide some basis for it to justify to vote. So when people asked, I gave it. And my answers were apparently satisfactory enough where people started voting Pine after I did. Meaning my vote wasn't vane. It was with purpose: lynching Pine, and lynching Pine first.

I already explained this to you before.

If the Pine wagon didn't take off, I'd have pushed it harder. Given more reasons. Given stronger basis. And tried to get it to go through.
If that still failed (it didn't), if after all of that, nobody would vote Pine? I'd leave it there for as long as possible AS vanity, as a statement, but not to the detriment of the town. If SirCakez as scum was lynched without me, so be it. I feel no need for towncred. I have him as a scumread, so it doesn't mean I need to vote him when everyone else was. If SirCakez as scum looked like he was going to live, then if there were no other wagons on scum, I would intervene. I would hop right back onto SirCakez and drive that wagon through, because lynching scum > lynching town.

Yet that never became necessary, because Pine became a wagon. And as a result? Pine lynch > SirCakez lynch > other scum lynch > town lynch. I don't see what's so hard to grasp about this concept. Not all scum lynches are created equal. Some hold priority over others. Lynching Pine is a top priority. Failing that, lynching the largest wagon on scum. (Which at the time was SirCakez, but now is TheThinker.) Don't allow town to be lynched. Push for the scum to be lynched. If a lesser scum is lynched without me on it, so be it. If a lesser scum needs me to be there, I will go there, otherwise I won't. I'll stay on the greater scum. Especially since lynching the greater scum is a realistic possibility. Lynching Pine is an obtainable goal...so why would I settle for SirCakez? Just because he's also scum? Just because I'd want towncred for being on the lynch of scum? Fuck no. If you feel the need to be on the lynch wagon of every scum player, you're playing the game for the wrong reasons. Being accurate, and being where you are needed most, are more important skills to have. And I'm needed most on the Pine wagon.

It's really that simple.

[mastina]

If all I needed was a brief answer, I wouldn't be asking the question. So answer thoroughly what you can, and if you don't answer I'll know why.

Reask what you need to.

[mastina]

Phoneposting. Internet down. Really really badly down. As in, may not be fixed today, down. Maybe not even tomorrow. Can't post like this continuously. Burns too much data. Also not practical to quote stuff. Mad props to those who can do this, but I can't. V/

[mastina]

V/LA until this is fixed.

[mastina]

Mastin is still probably scum, she definitely needs to explain why she townreads klingon.

Experience.
Wait a couple of weeks and I'll probably be able to tell you more about it. If you want me to talk now, I have to keep it vague and generic and unspecific as possible, which...I basically already have done?

Also, that TheThinker wagon was town as fuck with two obvious, glaring exceptions:

VOTE: Pine-A-Tonics.
(The other is SirCakez.)
Aeronaut has moved into full-blown scumread territory. LUV's push on me makes me think that, short of Pine coaching them to do exactly that (not impossible, mind you), they are probably town. The fourth remains Molla.

Half-on, half-off.

[mastina]

Ok. So heartless, desp, me, and nacho were in the rogue crew last night, and then pine joined the crew in the middle. This creeped all of us out, but gin made some towny posts in the pt so yeah.

Okay, so that's pretty blatantly a scumclaim.
Heartless, you, Desperado, and Nacho are all clearly town. That's an all-town rogue crew if ever I've seen one. (So, joining had some clear scum motivation.) Further exemplified by Nacho's death during the night. And then, you're telling me Gin made good points in the PT?

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I basically taught TheRealGin-N-Tonic how to town it up behind closed doors. (Not directly, but indirectly, via my theory work. Most recently seen here, but elsewhere too.) Because, uh. Yeah. They're closed fucking doors. We can't see them. It's easier to manipulate two or three town players than it is the entire town.

[mastina]

I want you to talk about this when you get the chance as well, because I am very confused about what happened to your aero read. You townread him for what seemed like very little at the time then continuously moved him down giving no explanation when to me he even got townier. What?

Bit busy at the moment and should probably eat breakfast (my hands are a little bit shaky because my body is lacking in nutrients at the moment because I went to play mafia before eating anything), but the short version is, more or less:

I liked Aeronaut's entrance into the game. Really liked it. I tend to have reasonably decent earlygame reads, and have gotten good at reading content others dismiss as useless RVS stuff. Going into theory a bit, I prefer to keep my exact process hidden (it's my exact process), both for a combination of strategic reasons and because I fucking suck at explaining the concept which my brain processes this stuff as, but basically, in essence, the scum in a game tend to stick out during the RVS because they don't yet know how to blend in. When I call people scum, I'm noting people who don't blend in; when I call people town, I'm essentially noting those that did. And Aeronaut felt like he had. This is a MASSIVE oversimplification and undersells the importance of my process, but I'm in a rush to get food in me so I might give you a better explanation later.

This is why Aeronaut was an early strong townread; I felt he was not scum with the way he came into the game.
Then, he disappeared. I still defended him, but the defense felt wrong. Therein entering the doubt. I didn't share with everyone that I was feeling said doubt, but I was. I tried to write it off--I knew he was experiencing some sort of V/LA, so surely it was that.
And then, he posted his content.

And none of it was good.

None of it was even remotely what I was expecting from him as town. The very thing making you townread him is what makes me scumread him.

[mastina]

Further exemplified by Nacho's death during the night.

funny, i thought the same thing about you mastin
(though, breaking into the crew WAS jarringly godawful)

What I'm getting at, is that the scum broke into the rogue crew (Pine), and then killed someone from it (Nacho).

Kinda hard for that to apply to me.

[mastina]

What I dont get is why she lied.

Aside from it not being a lie, this is the part which makes Pine-A-Tonics scum.

[mastina]

Klingoncelt [4] Infinity 324, Desperado, AJ the Epic, SirCakez

One of these votes is not like the others.

[mastina]

me and anti talked about mastin.

Don't believe Antihero's lies.

Between the two of us, I am the

much

better comedian.

[mastina]

The stalling signifies to me that scum were happy with the game state and weren't being wagoned until klingon got traction. Or: none of the wagons were scum and we were just able to lynch thinker at the end due to compromise. But the wagons on pine, AJ, and cakez stood long enough with little enough opposition that I'm comfortable calling them town.

Alternatively: the wagon on SirCakez was on scum, and morphed into the wagon on Pine, also on scum. Scum used deadline and players' suspicions on TheThinker to rush through a quicklynch on town, rather than on scum.

I still maintain that the majority of that wagon is town, but the Pine and SirCakez votes are egregious.

[mastina]

I would also ask, the same group you keep.
have a feeling it was town(ish), and in scum tried to seep.

Indeed, though it makes me wonder why you're voting Desperado when the rogue leader would default to Heartless by my understanding. (I suppose it stops scum from making a last-minute vote for rogue leader that is someone we don't want, but otherwise not much point.) The rogue leader was Heartless yesterday, so the best way to 100% guarantee the picks are the same is to elect Heartless again (which happens by default). Desperado was on the crew, and as far as we know would go along with the same picks plan, but it's not quite the same level of certainty.

With Heartless, it's 99% certain; with Desperado, more like 95%. That's not a stark enough difference in percentages where I'm gonna bother fighting (Desp is probably town and probably will pick the same people), but it's still something worth noting.

[mastina]

All of your posts are whining about being wagoned/scumread and not actually scumhunting.

Pot, kettle, black.

[mastina]

Nacho wasn't universally townread in the crew either.

First, going off on a tangent: this would be one of the reasons I so adamantly hate with a passion neighborhoods where the neighbors insist on hiding the nature of their discussions. Hide roles! Hide mechanics! That's what you hide in a neighborhood: you claim them there, but not in-thread.
Hash out reads! Use the time to discuss! Talk things out as much as you want, especially during the night when the thread is locked! These, too, you can and should be doing in a neighborhood.

...But by god, when you discuss reads in your neighborhood,

you better the fuck bring that info out

, because NOBODY gains anything except ten levels of frustration at "lol, u so out of loop" responses from those within.

Second. Now that we have established Nacho was not a universal townread within the crew (something I didn't know), that would only be evidence to strengthen my posit: Nacho not being universally townread within the crew is a GREAT way for the scum to get away with killing him. Less likely to be protected, and less likely to be, saaaaay, watched. So, killing a strong player who the town wasn't trusting yet before said player could be fully trusted--that sounds an awful lot like Pine's modus operandi as scum. (Admittedly yes it'd be mine as well, but he and I picked up the trick at loosely the same time. Him, probably a bit before me if I'm fully honest, given games like Mirror Mafia among others.)

[mastina]

I also don't understand why scum-Pine even uses what is apparently such an obvious scum power.

...Because it's a scum power and Pine knows the power of the wifom game? So he might as well...you know. Use it.

[mastina]

My hypothesis is that Mastina is so daftly afraid of Nacho being able to call her shit out that he held priority over everyone else.

Counterpoint: Nacho

wasn't

calling my 'shit' out.

While he would, in fact, be a high-priority kill, no question, no doubt, about that, there would be other players who would give me a more beneficial return. Nacho is not on the flowchart for good reason. He's not someone I hold in absolute fear. Now! I haven't actually beaten him in a fair fight. Brawl-to-brawl, he has won every time we've actually engaged. Him as scum and me as town; him as town and me as scum. (There's never a time where we're both town and go at each other though.) But he's not someone I feel the need to eliminate above all else. (I mean, if I were scum, who the fuck do I kill? You've got Heartless, you've got Nacho, you've got BBMolla, you've got Desperado, you've got TheWayItEnds, you've got Pine-A-Tonics, and probably more. Some could be scumbuddies, sure. But not all of them. Meaning that as scum, I'd have a choice of high-profile players to pick. Nacho isn't important enough where he'd be #1 100% of the time. The only two players with that honor are zMuffinman and AngryPidgeon. Them absent, as scum, my kill this game would...probably have been Heartless. Sure, Nacho would likely be a high pick, maybe even second, but I think I'd kill Heartless before killing Nacho.)

PINE, on the other hand......

[mastina]

the "other thing" i was thinking of was "kill someone low profile to evade a protective"
last i knew mastin is a "screw the protectives, kill who you want" type of scumbag, i kind of didn't expect this answer from her :\ i sort of expected a spiel about who she would kill if she were scum.

Yes, which is why I would've killed you if I were scum, not Nacho.

The scum's modus operandi is

close

to my own.
CLOSE.
The Nacho kill is CLOSE to something I would make, if I was going for the "fuck PRs, I'll kill who I want".

But it's not exactly that. You would be. As the Rogue Leader, you'd be the player that would be protected by PRs, and yet I'd want you dead as scum more than any other player here. If for no other reason, than to force the town to select another rogue leader, one who could potentially actually be scum. So if I was scum, I would be killing you.

But I'm not scum. This is CLOSE to how I work. The Nacho kill is within what I would normally do. But for

this specific game

, given THESE SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES, fuck no. I kill you first, and kill Nacho when I fear he's about to scumread me. And let me tell you: if Nacho actually was scumreading me, he would have told you in the neighborhood. He might not have said it in the game thread, where *I* could read it. But behind closed doors in an all-town crew (until Pine joined at least), if he was scumreading me, you can bet your ass he'd let it be known. Even so much as a semblance of a reason would be enough.

And yet, by Gin's own word, Nacho only had one post in there, and hadn't answered the question on whether he trusted me--a lack of an answer is not a negative answer; it's just a lack of an answer. So he didn't have a scumread on me, and therefore I had no incentive at all to kill him N1. MAYBE he'd be my N2 nightkill. He DEFINITELY would have to go by N3. But N1? While in another game with lesser players, sure! If this was basically a newbie, Nacho would go N1. Yet in this game, full of power players?

Fuck no.

The Nacho kill came from Pine. Not from me. Guarantee it.

[mastina]

You're going to have to justify this a lot better because the narrative that a wagon on scum just sat there unopposed for a while, then turned into another wagon on scum which also sat there unopposed, is questionable at best.

No, it's not?

The thing about wagons on scum is that they're gradual things which grow organically, and fall suddenly.
The SirCakez wagon grew gradually, but fell suddenly.
The Pine wagon grew slowly, but fell suddenly.

The TheThinker wagon grew quickly, and didn't fall--thus, why it was a mislynch.

That's how wagons work.

It doesn't matter if there wasn't opposition. It wouldn't matter if there was. You can wagon two scum on a day. You can wagon two town on a day. You have to look not at whether there's counterwagons, but at the TYPE of wagon those wagons were. And in this case, it was two scum wagons and a town wagon. The town wagon was a counterwagon to both of the scum wagons.

[mastina]

I'm glad we've established that nacho was a good kill choice and that one of you and pine is scum.

So fucking vote for Pine-A-Tonics rather than waste your vote on...whoever the fuck you're wasting it on.

[mastina]

VOTE: mastin

No.
Just no.

[mastina]

You didn't give him the CHANCE to engage.

Let me make this perfectly clear:
If Nacho was ever going to get a scumread on me.
He would have already have had a scumread on me.

That's just the dynamic there.

He's not going to need to draw attention to me. He's not going to need to have a drawn-out interaction with me. He doesn't need to engage me for hours upon hours. He needs one or two posts. That's it. If he's going to call me scum, he will call me scum, off of that amount alone. His accuracy isn't as high as zMuffinman or AngryPidgeon. However, his speed isn't lower than theirs in obtaining a read. In fact, I'm his number one priority. His first concern. He scumreads me, he needs to make sure I get lynched pronto. He knows the consequences if he doesn't.

Nacho had plenty of time to engage me. He chose not to. You know why he chose not to? Because he didn't need to. He knew I was town.
And when I say 'engage'. I don't mean necessarily talking to me. He could be asking others about me. He could ask stuff to me, sure. But mostly, he would be talking about me. And in a fight, on why I was scum. He did not. Because he wasn't scumreading me. And as a result, he wasn't a threat to me.

So as a result, he wasn't someone I would have killed. That'd have been Heartless. Who WAS scumreading me. Maybe not anymore, they've been a bit ambiguous there, think there may be some hydra dissonance going on of some sort, but at the very least they WERE scumreading me. If I were scum, that scumread could easily come back at any point. So if I were scum, I'd just say, "they scumread my slot once, who's to say they won't again?" and just kill them.

The Nacho kill, on the other hand...I'd say both heads of your hydra have reason for it. Aeronaut might as well, and Molla certainly does. Fuck, wouldn't surprise me if SirCakez has experience with Nacho warranting his NK. The simple fact is, I had no reason to kill Nacho; you had

every

reason to kill Nacho.

Similar styles. VERY similar. But not quite identical. This is your scum show, not mine. Your modus operandi, not mine. Because this is your scumteam. Not mine.

[mastina]

I don't claim to know more mafia theory than you do, but I'd be surprised if there was any relatively active scumteam who would let 2 of their scumpartners get wagoned and stay that way without getting jittery.

Laughing so hard now because I can one-up you.

You ask me for two?

I'll give you three.
Guess who the scumteam of that game was?
(Hint: they were all being voted.)

It happens. It's a thing.
It's less common than the inverse: two dueling town wagons. (That happens all the time.)
But it happens often enough, especially with the inverse, that yes. Fuck "but that was a counterwagon!" logic.
Use "how the wagon formed" logic.

The wagons on SirCakez and Pine formed similarly.
The wagon on TheThinker formed differently from SirCakez and Pine.
The wagon on Klingoncelt for that matter is pretty similar to TheThinker's wagon.

It's not that hard.

[mastina]

Are we still "almost in RVS", mastin? Cause your play hasn't changed much from yesterday

What game are

you

reading?

Sure the fuck isn't this one because I'm going absolutely

ballistic

to try and get you to lynch Pine-a-Tonics.

There are some things I am avoiding--quite deliberately in some cases. I have reasons for that, not all of which I can elaborate on.

But what are you asking for?

I'm telling you exactly why Pine is scum.
I'm telling you why Gin's head is still scum.
I'm laying out their actions.

I'm pointing out why SirCakez is scum.
Molla hasn't even posted much of anything so there's nothing to point out as scum aside from that he hasn't posted much of anything.
And Aeronaut was prodded meaning he hasn't actually posted much of anything. They're not posting, so obviously I can't point out why they're scum if they're not showing it, now can I?

But for Pine, who IS posting?

I

have

been.

What do you want that I haven't given? I've given you the VCA. NKA. I've given you the mindset. The motive. The interactions, the tone, the content of the posts. They're scum. I guarantee you.

[mastina]

I don't see a reason for town!mastin to go on and on about who she would've killed as scum

Because the way I kill is similar to the way Pine kills. I'm describing my process, and then going into how Pine's process differs from mine, and how his kill pattern--while similar to mine--isn't identical, and why this is HIS kill pattern, not mine.

I'm doing it to lynch Pine.

[mastina]

Usually when I catch scum succesfully, I'm able to continue to find more and more reasons why they're scum. Not in a confirmation bias way where I'm forcing it, just in a natural way. That's what's happening with mastin right now.

Pot, kettle, black.

What the fuck do you think my posting towards Pine is?

Flailing?

Fuck no.

They are scumposting.
I am finding more and more evidence for why they are scum.
And I keep on pointing it out, yet you're seemingly blind to it.

[mastina]

It's confident and controlled instead of unsure and waffly. On d1 you explained that by saying it was almost RVS, yet it still hasn't changed.

It has, though?

There's a little bit of an outside factor contributing to this--not one I can talk about here. But existing all the same. That outside factor does in fact mean my play's a little bit...well, different from my preference. For instance, I'm being FAR more emotional here than I'd like to be. (I really hate it when I have palatable frustration. It might technically be a towntell, and not one I can fake, but it's REALLY not healthy for me. Not for me, personally, and not for the gamestate. And yet, fallout from the outside factor means that I am in fact feeling it here.) But the changes are tangible. I don't see how they aren't.

That being said. Should probably mention this: I'm not going on a sitewide V/LA, but this game's got reduced priority for me for a while. Not sure exactly how long, but...for a while. I'll be reading, I'll be commenting, but I simply don't have the time and energy to devote to this game. I'm getting too burned out as it is. Kinda overextended myself a little bit. Apologies.

[mastina]

Mastin, you really haven't given that much wrt pine. Essentially your reasoning throughout d1 was "because I said so" and now you're giving some wagon analysis that I don't totally agree with, them breaking into the crew, and NKA. That's it.

And what more are you asking for?

Because that? That's plenty. That's me posting content. That's me bringing up points.

I don't work in making long wallpost cases. That's not me. Never has been, never will be. I bring up specific points. I bring up highlights. And I have done so. I've given you what I've got there. I don't really know what more I have to offer.

[mastina]

Probably aeronaut

Pretty sure it's LUV.

Also, by the way: I've got thoughts on the guilty claim.
I'm not going to share them.
I want to wait.

Conveniently enough, there's not a risk of this information being lost--if I'm nightkilled, there's this nice little mechanic called a "Last Will" which will allow me to share my thoughts.

But I don't want to share what said info would be.

I'll tell you this: Pine's still a scumfuck.
Drunken Piper is town and does have a guilty.
The nature of the thoughts I have is not doubting either of those. It's about something else in regards to the guilty claim. If I told you, the value would be lost, but I'll share when I feel the time is right. Or when the scum kill me, since I intend to write the information down in my last will.

[mastina]

Whoops.
Sorry 'bout that.
Was busy over the weekend for the most part, and yesterday I was mostly modding and then stuff happened, I got distracted, I had this game in mind knowing it had begun but I kept putting it off saying "Eh, I'll get to it later", and then...well, didn't, but oh well. Here now.

[mastina]

I need to reevaluate townreads since I was wrong about Pine and Klingon. I feel safe with this vote though.
VOTE: AJ

"I swear I'm going to reevaluate my reads, but here have a vote which...is not me reevaluating my reads".

[mastina]

(Btw, will be giving my thoughts on players in a bit.
First, I have to catch up in this game. Then, I've got to do other stuff. Like, stuff which needs to be done before midnight, when it's already 10:15 PM and these things are not quick tasks, stuff. I want to go in-depth right now, but I'm honestly a bit swamped at the moment.)

[mastina]

The problem is that no one has really done anything scummy

Try looking at players like Aeronaut and SirCakez for a start.

There's others I have in mind, but that'll require me to effort on rereading and pointing out sections--something I hope to do tonight anyway, but certainly not before I first get caught up on the game.

[mastina]

Oh, right. That reminds me.
VOTE: Aeronaut.
I wasn't actually voting. New day, Pine's dead, and all that.

[mastina]

do EITHER of those sound like the way scum would treat a scumbuddy to you?

Especially knowing Pine, and ESPECIALLY knowing Pine's game history with me, the answer you're looking for here is "FUCK no".

If Pine and I were scum together, it'd be the time of our lives. We'd be buddy-buddy, bouncing ideas off of each other in-thread, and we'd easily synchronize together. Maybe not perfectly. We might have public disagreements on some issues. But we'd be more united than not. And we'd have each other as number one townreads.

But, no. Pine treated me the way they did this game because they knew I was town and they were scum and that I

knew

they were scum.

[mastina]

mastin planted her vote on pine and didn't move

Well, technically speaking, I moved around a bit before going to Pine. I voted SirCakez, may have voted someone else, don't remember, but my final Pine vote was my second, third, or maybe even fourth vote. Would have to go and check to see which, but it wasn't an instavote the moment I entered the game.

Just...a vote, almost immediately after I entered the game.

[mastina]

Given that Pine's role basically confirmed him as scum it would make plenty of sense as a bus.

Question.
What kind of scum power are you expecting in this game?
Godfather-Strongman-Ninja?
Godfather-Strongman-Rolecop?
Godfather-Strongman-Roleblocker?
Godfather-Ninja-Rolecop?
Godfather-Ninja-Roleblocker?
Strongman-Ninja-Rolecop?
Strongman-Ninja-Roleblocker?
Ninja-Rolecop-Roleblocker?

Because that's the ballpark we're talking about power-wise for Pine to be worth bussing with a role that strong.

[mastina]

K-2SO, JOAT
1- shot Deflect, 1-shot Redirect, 1-shot Rolestop

Okay.
Fuck the vanillaized claim.
VOTE: BBMolla.
BBMolla was a scumread of mine D1, and this is a scum role full-stop.

Molla's claim to be vanillaized is almost assuredly a gambit.
And, yes. That sort of wifom claim is something

exactly

up Pine's alley.
It's his modus operandi, even. He SPECIALIZES, absolutely SPECIALIZES. More than any fucking player in the game. SPECIALIZES in wifom gambits. And it was his role they gambited on.

Now, not sure whether they actually used a vanillaize shot on Molla. Could work either way. Lying allows Molla to get away with using these abilities and also has the side-effect of making people never want to target Molla. (They assume, "Oh, Molla was vanillaized, he must be town and thus not worthy of being looked at".) Using it truthfully allows for stronger wifom and the possibility that if Molla was, say, watched, then nobody would call him out on the bullshit.

Both have the ups and the downs.
But this claim?

This was a scum role. Through-and-through. There's ZERO town use in those abilities, outside of specific situations.
The scum use of those abilities is obvious:
Redirection, need not be said. Basically one of the strongest possible scum abilities and was blacklisted from Normals for damn good reason.
Deflection, much the same: protects a scumbuddy from harm.
And rolestop?

We just learned that the Rogue Crew had a vig kill.
We also know that TheThinker was a 2x-vig.
What do you think that rolestop shot was meant to be used for?

It's a scum role. Simple as that.
Molla's play is scum (I'll show that in a bit), Molla's claim is scum, he's just scum.

Trust me on this.

[mastina]

Why claim Vanillaized and then defend the shit out of Pine, that seems ineffective if the goal is to make myself seem town on a Pine flip

Because you weren't planning on Pine being lynched.

A claim of being vanillaized, without Pine flipping, would still be seen as town because vanillaizer is not a town role so you can claim to be vanillaized and get free, cheap, easy towncred for it because nobody would stop to think, "huh, maybe this isn't real!".

In fact, half the game didn't even want you to claim your abilities.
That, alone, is proof enough of the weight behind claiming to be vanillaized.

Molla. is. scum.

[mastina]

VOTE: AJ
OR TWIE if we wanna go that route

lol

If you feel like loling at BBMolla, it's because he's scum.

When he's town, he's not someone you lol at.
But when he's scum, he hides behind saying a lot of things which make people go lol.

This is his scumgame, through and through.

His one saving grace was the vanillaized claim, and even that is sketchy-as-fuck.

[mastina]

I want to discuss WHAT made her realize Pine was scum from that.

Okay, I'll be honest.

Games kinda blend together here, so I'm not sure if I explained this in this game.

I know I've said it elsewhere, but in this game, have I mentioned yet how Pine was my first rival, before even AngryPidgeon? (AP actually went on to replace Pine right at the time Pine siteflaked the first time. As in, literally my first game with AP was my last game with Pine pre-flake. Which by the way, was the game where I nailed his slot as scum, and even his entire fucking scumteam, correctly protected the scum nightkill, correctly pointed out AP's hider crumbs and who he hid behind and why he hid behind scum, and STILL got mislynched in fucking mylo anyway because the idiotic town wouldn't listen to me even though I was 100% absolutely entirely correct every step of the way. /bitter.)

While Pine would like to tell you how he initially was someone I couldn't read worth a damn, the thing is: I got better. Duck Tales. The above game, a mini normal modded by MattP. Various others, would have to search them out. I got better at reading Pine correctly. Pine is just someone I

know

. I know him. I can read him. He still insists, thanks to our early encounters, that I can't. But I understand him. I know him when he's town. I know him when he's scum. For LQ's mini normal, I took ONE look at his posting, his absolute first post on D2, and went, "Yep. Pine's scum this game", and sure enough, there he was as scum that game.

Pine can't hide from me. I can, to borrow a term from someone else, "soul-read" Pine.

You ask me how I could read Pine?

I ask you: how could I NOT fucking read Pine?
It'd have been an utter, abysmal FAILURE on my part to have not correctly scumread him.
So damn straight I knew he was scum.

[mastina]

ignore this game more Mastin.

I'll have you know that at the timestamp of your post, I was logged into mastin2.

I had not logged into mastina, this account, the account I am playing this game on, and also the game that I receive PMs from, since yesterday, when I was modding. And while I could be mistaken, I BELIEVE the last time I logged into mastina yesterday was in fact for modding purposes! I was busy modding yesterday, and I didn't check this account until just now.

So no. Not ignoring.

Preoccupied.

And you know JUST as well as I do that I cannot discuss the details beyond that so fuck off.

Speaking of which, though. I said this game wasn't my top priority. I mean it. Give me a little over a week. (About 8 days, to be more precise.) THEN this game will be my top priority game-wise. (Aside from modding, that is.) I'll be playing during that time, yes. But not at full, 100% capacity because I'm a little bit busy, swamped even, elsewhere. And I will say no more on the subject.

And neither should you.

[mastina]

Then you also have players like Mastina/Titus who'd just as soon let their buddies die and solo carry than stick their neck out and save them.

This couldn't be further from the truth.

And it's not just me.

Titus is the anti-bussing queen even more than I am.

[mastina]

Like did you really think that everyone would just sheep you d1 when you weren't giving any reasoning?

Yeah.
Did you?

Because you've not once explained your scumread on me, so.

You're really the pot calling the kettle black here.

My whole point is that as soon as he used his power he'd be lynched

...Assuming he got caught using it, which last I checked, scum try not to do.

[mastina]

Pine would only make sense as a bus if scum are powerful!

, she yells. Which ignores the whole point that Pine would get a major assload of heat as soon as he joined the RK without getting invited. B/c why the fuck would

TOWN

do that? Woman please.

Okay.
I 'bussed' Pine D1.
Pine entered the crew N1.

How does that work on your timeline?

It doesn't.
What's to stop Pine from having been a part of the crew?
What's to stop scum other than Pine from having been a part of the crew?

With the benefit of hindsight, that is, knowing who the crew picked was, you can safely assume the picked crew T1 was all town, yes.
But that's only with the benefit of hindsight, knowing Pine forcefully joined the crew N1.

In other words: saying I knew Pine would join the crew N1 and thus bussed him D1 doesn't work as an explanation, because on D1 I would have no way of knowing that action would be needed.

Basically, you've got a chronology problem on hand.
It wasn't: The crew was picked-->No scum were on the screw, thus Pine joined-->This made Pine suspicious, so I bussed.
It was: I went after Pine-->the crew was picked-->no scum were on the crew, thus Pine joined-->I continued pushing Pine, following through from D1 with new information strengthening a read that already existed.

[mastina]

I could dig a Molla/Mastin/Titus team.

So help me bus Molla by voting him!

[mastina]

In fact, half the game didn't even want you to claim your abilities.

is this a fact or an alternative fact?

I don't think the whole game weighed in, but I did approximate off of what was there.

I wouldn't have wanted Molla to claim the abilities (though I'm glad he did), Titus didn't want that, two of the strongest personalities didn't want it, so it's therefore a fair bet that about half of the game didn't want it. How many requests for Molla to claim were there? Three? There's about as much data saying people wanted him to claim as there is people wanting him to not claim, ergo, half.

[mastina]

If it's such an obvious scum role, WHY THE FUCK would molla claim it AFTER being vanillaized?

"If it's such an obvious scum ability, why the FUCK would Pine use it?"

...

...Yeah. I rest my case.

[mastina]

Why did nacho die after implying he'd defend molla?

You're reading too much into that one aspect of Nacho's iso.

Simple as that.

Nacho being killed isn't a holy bible where suddenly everything he said is the gospel.

Nacho being killed is the product of a Pine-led scumteam. (For what it's worth, the Desperado kill wasn't really a Pine-type kill, so that wasn't something Pine orchestrated in advance. Might mean scum lack daychat, because if Pine were able to tell his scumteam who to kill, he probably would, and I'm saying Desperado is not who he'd pick, so there was an obvious change in leadership. Too early to tell who led off of just the one kill, though.)

Nothing more, and nothing less.

Nacho could have named the entire scumteam.
Nacho could have called the entire scumteam town.
Nacho could have mentioned absolutely nothing about any member of the scumteam.

Pine would've still killed Nacho no matter what. Nacho, with Pine as scum, was dead N1,

period

. So fuck your flawed speculation of an idea which would never cross Pine's mind. He wouldn't care about that. It wouldn't factor in. At all. Zero percent.

If you want to go call Molla town for some other flawed reasoning, be my guest, but he's scum.

[mastina]

Talk to me about Titus, Mastin?

I see nothing which makes her scum, I like what others are saying about her being town, I had her as a townread though admittedly I don't recall the reasons, and I have around the right number of scumreads without her, so between all those factors, I'd say she's got a fairly high chance of being town.

She's in the lower percentile of town though. While I see nothing from her that's scum, there's only bits and pieces which I'd call truly town.

[mastina]

I've been extremely vocal about my stance that I think its entirely possible that you were bussing Pine as well as other things such as going after low hanging fruit Aero so no.

Yeah. And I was extremely vocal about my stance that I thought Pine was scum as well as other things such as his ability among others.

We could continue comparing egos all game if you'd like, or you can acknowledge that my approach to scumreads has been basically identical to your own, and instead focus on actually lynching scum. Like a common scumread. You know. Like BBMolla.

wait really?

I was referring to Pine's vanillaize power.
Joining the crew might've been egregious, but they had successfully managed to talk out of it prior to Drunken Piper's guilty claim. They had virtually no wagon on them. So I'd say, yes. They intended to not get caught. They used a scummy power, but they almost got AWAY with using said scummy power. A vanillaize would be...a bit harder to justify.

[mastina]

scum push thier buddies all the damn time. You aren't new Mastin so please stop pretending like you are.

And if you legit, seriously think that I, of all people.
Playing with fucking PINE. Of all people.
Choose to bus him.

You can go fuck yourself.

It'd never happen.

EVER.

You know how strongly I am against bussing.
You also know my player relationship with Pine. How close we are. How he was my first frenemy. How we love playing with each other and would love to be together.

So seriously.

Fuck. off.

[mastina]

scum needed the information of what the Crew was doing.

Yes, I know.
I said this yesterday.
Were you reading my posts?
In fact, were you reading the post you quoted? Because that was my fucking point.

Yesterday, there was a strong movement of people who were writing off Pine using the ability, because surely, it was an ability SO scummy that no scum would actually use.

I laid out explicitly EXACTLY why they would use it.

It's right there in my fucking posts, and you're acting like I never said a word of it.

[mastina]

So...you think Molla is scum but you don't think Titus is a possible scumbuddy when she was against him claiming. ok why?

Because if Titus were scum, then she would have had last night (N2) if not N1 to tell Molla NOT to claim, for a start. (Assuming no daychat here. If there's daychat, it becomes painfully simple: Titus would just tell Molla in the scum PT NOT to claim, and that would be that. Nothing more to it. This is really self-explanatory, and I don't understand how you WOULDN'T get this.)

[mastina]

i think his point was that the claim doesn't look like it's calculated to get towncred

The roleclaim itself, sure, not for towncred.

The claim to be vanillaized, on the other hand...

[mastina]

if I was scum the most beneficial thing to claim today would have been VT

Yeah bullshit.

Can't exactly claim to be vanillaized ad a VT, now, can you?

And you can't exactly lie about your powers for risk of those powers actually being in the game in the hands of an actual town player, now, can you?

The only move was to claim the original role, and work off of the assumption that the claim of being vanillaized would raise you to conftown status. (Which it almost did.)

[mastina]

Mastin, you think Titus is one of the bigger personalities in this game. What do you think of her being so low key?

I don't see any low-keyness from her? She's in the game. Doing the same stuff she always does. At about the same frequency as normal. And providing around what I would expect of her. What's there to see?

[mastina]

I mean idk it's all hypothetical, my play is much more calculated as scum and you've seen that mastin. as town I just kind of fumble

Yes I have seen your play be calculated as scum and yes I have seen you fumble as town.

And that's the thing.

I don't see any evidence whatsoever of you fumbling this game.

I see calculated play from you every step of the way this game.

[mastina]

Thing is, if Molla doesn't claim its putting a huge amount of pressure on him.

[citation needed]

[mastina]

ok mastin, let's play a game
3-4 scum
1 scum 2-shot vanillaizer
1 scum redirecting joat/rolestop
???????

13-14 town
1 2-shot vig
3 VT
???????
you're reviewing this setup. in general terms, what has to go into the ?????? to make this balanced?

Oh, I dunno.
How about every player this game having a role, even the VTs?
How about a Rogue Crew mechanic which has some sort of power in it and which at minimum acts as a neighborhood?
How about Drunken Piper's softclaimed role we haven't had a hardclaim of?
How about any number of unflipped PRs who have the common fucking sense to not be claiming on D3 with one scum dead yesterday?

This shit's not rocket science. (There, you have the edge on me. )
This is just common sense. We know one flipped role.
We know one softclaimed role.
We know one mechanical boost in play.
We know every VT has a power.
We don't know what other power roles are in play.

And on D3, that's a VERY GOOD THING to be said.

Now, I can't speculate on what the unflipped/claimed roles are and even if I could, I shouldn't.

But what I CAN do is tell you off of KNOWN ROLES why BBMolla's role is a scum role.
We have the rogue crew with a kill ability.
We have a 2-shot vigilante.
Deflect? The town killer commits suicide, giving the scum a free kill on a player who was probably conftown.
Redirect? The town killer ends up killing a player scum want dead--sure, the town killer knows they were probably redirected, but it's still giving the scum a second kill.
Rolestop? Puts a stop to the kill, saving the life of a scumbuddy.
Alternatively, the rolestop stops, saaaaaaaaaaaay, Drunken Piper's role from getting a guilty in the first place! The deflect/redirect similarly allow the investigation to fail, or depending on Firebringer's wording (if Firebringer uses "Your target" rather than "Playername"), provide a false innocent/guilty.

Literally every one of those abilities, off of JUST THE KNOWN POWER IN THE GAME, is useful for the scum.

In contrast, what does the role offer for town?
Causing Pine to vanillaize themselves? Causing Pine to vanillaize a player BBMolla specified? A one-shot doctor protection?

It's a scum role.

Through-and-through. Simple. as. that.

[mastina]

Pine had a role that publicly outted him as using an anti-town ability. As soon as he used it he was going to be under intense pressure. I think its very very very likely that you'd bus him to salvage some usefulness out of his sacrifice.

Again. Chronology. I was going after Pine D1.
The ability was used N1.
The ability would not have been used N1 if there were scum on the crew--there would be no need to have scum infiltrate the crew if scum were already on it.
There was no way of knowing prior to N1 that there were no scum on the crew.
As a result, there is no way of knowing prior to N1 that Pine would use the ability.
As a result, there is no incentive for me to go after Pine...except. You know. That I am town and KNEW HE WAS SCUM.

Stop fucking doubting my legitimacy and realize I know what the fuck I'm talking about here in regards to Pine, and now BBMolla. These are players that I KNOW. So I KNOW they are scum.

[mastina]

Titus is doing next to fucking nothing.

I'd argue Titus has done more than you. (And yes by proxy I realize that's saying Titus has done more than me. Statement stands.)

So no.

[mastina]

Molla literally could've claimed any role he wanted. Any role. That he claimed the particular role he claimed is completely NAI.

No, he couldn't.

If BBMolla claimed a role which was already in the game, he would be counterclaimed.

And then he'd be lynched, because the CCer would be town.

Molla had no choice but to claim his actual role when roleclaiming.

This is common fucking sense.

If you're not a cop, as scum, do you claim cop? Not unless you're specifically looking to be counterclaimed. The risk of the role being in the game would simply be too high. Now, granted. In select conditions, this may not apply. But in a theme game which is role-heavy, fuck yes it means you claim your real role 95% of the time because claiming anything else gets you lynched almost every time. (Within reason. Goon-->Vanilla; Godfather-->still Vanilla; Ninja-->stiiiiiill Vanilla; Strongman-->Yep, still claiming Vanilla. Roleblocker-->RB or maybe if you're feeling ambitious JK. VT is possible, of course. Rolecop-->Rolecop, Vanilla cop, if you're feeling ambitious Neapolitan, or maybe VT if you're a coward.)

[mastina]

I mean, I assume scum got fakeclaims.

Yes. And presumably, they are fakeclaims of their real fucking role.

You don't get mods who make a scum roleblocker and give them a fakeclaim of vigilante.
(Okay. Maybe you DO, but those mods are absolutely shitty mods.)

You get mods who make a scum roleblocker and give them a fakeclaim of either roleblocker or jailkeeper or some variant role thereof.

Not that hard.

[mastina]

Pine would've still killed Nacho no matter what.

Remind me why?

NOT in the mood to go into detail about this again.

I've been here in this game for over two hours.

I meant to be here for five minutes.

Those tasks which were supposed to be done before midnight, which I said I'd do after getting caught up here?

Yeah well guess what, it's now 12:30 because I've been fucking debating here with you rather than doing those things and now they're past their deadline. (Know how I said I'd be going back and explaining stuff? Fuck that shit. This game's drained too much of my energy for today. I don't have it in me anymore.)

But basically: Pine has the history level with Nacho basically on par with me. Pine thinks very very VERY similarly to me. Pine honestly might be more afraid of Nacho than he is of me. I know, 100% absolutely beyond any shadow of a fact KNOW, that Pine considers both of us to be among the top players in this playerlist. As in, hands-down, he would see us as the largest threats to him. He can't kill us both. But he could kill Nacho first, something he'd likely do anyway as I know Pine prefers Nacho kills over mastina kills.

As a result? I know that Pine would kill Nacho no matter what because it's almost the kill I would make. It's similar to my own methodology. And the reason Pine killed Nacho is because Pine was afraid of Nacho. Not the Nacho in the game. The Nacho who COULD be in the game, at any moment. That's why Nacho died.

Not some shitty Nacho's-reads-were-accurate newbie thinking. Nacho is a scary player. When he dies, he can die off of his reputation alone. He sometimes has earned it, yes. He can be accurate. But being accurate isn't why Nacho dies. The FEAR of Nacho potentially being accurate is why Nacho dies.

[mastina]

The roleclaim itself, sure, not for towncred.

Then why'd he do it

As town: because, vanillaized, there's no reason not to.
As scum: because, claiming vanillaized, there's no reason not to. He'd also need to claim his original role

eventually

, so it might as well be today.
The roleclaim itself was not for towncred. The roleclaim itself was null.
The role is a scum role.
And the claim to be vanillaized is a scum gambit.

He could've claimed fucking 6-shot desperado 3-shot weak rolecop if he wanted to.

Again.
One, this is a flavored game--he claims something, he needs to justify the flavor. So it needs to fit.
Two, this means he's got a fakeclaim--he diverges from it, he risks being instalynched.
Three, if the role he claims is in the game, he gets counterclaimed and therefore speedlynched.
Four, if the role he claims is utterly unbelievable, he gets lynched.

So, BBMolla is going to claim his actual role, because it will be his actual role, just with a town flavor, because that's what the mod would give him as a fakeclaim: the town version of his role. (Because, again. Any moderator who gives a scum a fakeclaim they cannot prove is a shitty moderator.)

[mastina]

Quick question, Mastina. By your logic, everyone in the D1 rogue crew was town, right?

Yes.

[mastina]

And you can't exactly lie about your powers for risk of those powers actually being in the game in the hands of an actual town player, now, can you?

Fakeclaims. They probably exist.

MY FUCKING POINT EXACTLY.

Again.

A moderator will NOT give a scum a fakeclaim they cannot provide evidence of. Would you give scum whose power is roleblocker, say, a fakeclaim of 2-shot vigilante?

FUCK no. At least, god I hope you wouldn't!

A moderator is going to have fakeclaims match their given role.
Meaning, BBMolla's fakeclaim is: K2-SO, Town JOAT, with the powers of Deflect, Redirect, and Rolestop.

BBMolla's real role is: whatever the fuck Molla's scum role is, Scum JOAT, with the powers of Deflect, Redirect, and Rolestop.

This isn't that hard to understand.

[mastina]

Is this really a thing? I haven't looked at a ton of scum fakeclaims in themes/been scum in themes but how can you be so confident fire wouldn't just...save certain town roles for scum fakeclaims and not give them to town?

Again.
One, experience.
Two, because I know what's shitty.

And giving scum a fakeclaim of something they can be proven to not have?
That's shitty.

[mastina]

There's no reason to believe scum!molla was forced to claim his real role.

Aside from how that's not true, it's sidestepping the issue:
There's no reason a scuMolla wouldn't claim his role.

The role is a scum role--it could exist in the game for town, sure, but this is really like seeing a setup with a town cop, a town doctor, and then seeing a claim of town roleblocker (or maybe jailkeeper). Yeah, the roleblocker COULD be a town roleblocker, but it's probably just a fucking scum roleblocker.

The gambit of being vanillaized is a gambit.
Nothing more, nothing less.

[mastina]

Mastin, are you sure we can't just lynch this guy instead? That post was a bunch of empty analysis and busy questions

Remember how SirCakez was my fallback option D1 if I couldn't get Pine?

zefiend is the same way, just for BBMolla.

If I can't lynch BBMolla, I'll go for zefiend. Aeronaut was scum, and zefiend has done nothing to make me think otherwise.

But if I don't pursue Molla now, he'll get away.

[mastina]

The question directed at cakez also feels quite fake
VOTE: zefiend

(That's because they're scumbuddies.)

[mastina]

claiming your role as scum works maybe 10% of the time

Unless it's a moderator-given safeclaim (which happens to be a town version of your role), in which case it works a good 80-90% of the time because that's what the purpose of a fucking safeclaim is: to actually be safe.

Which.
You know.

Is just what I've been saying.

I fully believe you have a PM from Firebringer outlining a role which would be "K2-SO, Town JOAT".
I just believe said PM would be detailing it as your mod-given fakeclaim.

[mastina]

I have been very busy in the afternoons recently so I haven't been able to reread yet. Titus looks like scum on hiding so ya not changing my vote.
zefiend - given that Pine is our only flipped scum, thought it would be worthwhile for you to pay extra attention there. There wasn't really a special motive for it.

I mean, I don't really think I need to say why I would lynch ^this as well, but.
I would lynch that as well.

I still think BBMolla is the best lynch though.

[mastina]

My biggest issue with your claim is the point in time you came up with your Pine scumread (post 512).

To understand what happened, you need to know the events which transpired: I started reading from about page 18 (that was the spot I noticed that there was a slot up for replacement), until I was caught up to the latest post. (The spot I actually began posting.)

This got me some initial reads, like Drunken Piper and Heartless as town and I believe Pine/SirCakez both as scum. I lacked a lot of game context though.

Then, I went back to the beginning of the game, both for the value of the RVS and to fix that issue.
And started reading chronologically.

And there, you can track which page I was on with my thoughts by the quotes before, after, and during statements. For instance, Molla became a scumread on some page--I didn't quote it, but he did a series of postings around one page in particular which made me think, "This looks like Molla as scum". You conveniently put quotes here, and from memory I believe it came in that 236 - 254 range.

Meanwhile, Pine tries to open dialogue with you in 517, never before talking to you or mentioning your name.

No fucking shit?
I wasn't in the game, PeregrineV.
I'm a replacement.

It's a little fucking hard to talk about a player who's not in the game yet, now, isn't it?

Pine started talking to me the moment I actually entered the game. My SLOT is mentioned in their iso, though. Admittedly, only once, in 280, but it's there.

Meanwhile, neither head of the hydra tries really hard to break you from your read, nor do they try to engage you that I can see.

What the fuck are you reading?
Pine was constantly. CONSTANTLY. Saying, "Oh, lol, mastina's wrong again". Gin engaged me multiple times and said, "mastina is wrong". You want to get into this quote war, you WILL FUCKING LOSE because yes while I may not have been QUOTING many of Pine's posts, I sure as fuck wasn't blind to them and was reading each and every one of them remembering them QUITE well so I know

damn

good and well you're spewing bullshit here.

If your sure Pine is scum based on his 5 posts, yet the Gin side does nothign to affect your read?

Why would it?

Gin's posts were null-at-best to me. Some of what Gin said was scummy, some of it was null, none of it was really town.

Whereas Pine. You know. The head I have the game history with. Was scumposting at every step of the way and I KNEW it was his scumposting. I had the game experience to call it what it was.

[mastina]

No scum would fake being vanillaized before DP revealed his guilty.

This is akin to saying no scum would fakeclaim miller after a cop claimed an investigation.

Scum gambit.
Often in advance.
These gambits have a defined benefit.
Something that is, ideally, high reward and low risk.

BBMolla's claim to be vanillaized is low-risk. He loses virtually nothing from claiming it.
BBMolla's claim to be vanillaized is GAME WINNING LEVELS of high-reward. He gains conftown status from it.

What does Molla loses from claiming? Nothing.
What does Molla gain from claiming? Everything.

Right there is your motive. Right there is your explanation. And as Molla himself points out, it's something he would do, ESPECIALLY when coordinating with Pine. Pine, one of the best wifom scum players in existence. Pine, who there's a whole fucking game being run about that boils down to Pine wifom. (I think I can reference it existing as it was advertised?) I can catch Pine off of his play. And I can recognize Pine's night action pattern. This is his. The idea just FITS. It fits so ridiculously well.

Molla is scum.

It's that simple.

[mastina]

SirCake into the scumpile also.

Yes, he is, and I'd be happy to bus him if you'd vote with me there! Push come to shove, if nothing else.

[mastina]

Like Pine had a role that publicly outs his action.

Yes. Which...he would only need to use if there were no scum on the rogue crew.
If there was a scum on the rogue crew, suddenly, Pine doesn't need to use his power at all.
And then, all of a sudden, Pine never gets the suspicion on them.

That. simple.

Heartless

DID

state who she wanted in the crew.

Heartless wasn't the only candidate for Rogue Leader. Infinity and I believe Desperado were also D1 candidates. Notably, I was voting for Infinity as Rogue Leader--NOT Heartless.

infinity if you were rogue leader would you put pine on the rogue team?

Probably not.

I'd probably do me mastin desp or me desp and a scummish/null player

.

^This, and this alone, would be incentive enough to NOT assume Pine would use the ability.

Infinity, at the time of 780, was the vote leader for rogue leader. I was voting him. And he was interested in placing me in the rogue crew.
By that point, I had already made it clear I had a hard-on for a Pine lynch.

So again.
Fuck you.

My point about chronology stands.

As long winded as she is she could have done so and I don't think she ever did wich I think is sketchy as fuck.

Fuck your inaccurate definition of my style.

YOU OF ALL PEOPLE.

Know that while I am a verbose person.

I am not actually the wallposter I have the reputation of being.

You KNOW.
You KNOW better than this bullshit.

I'm closer to a spamposter than a wallposter. I get literally hundreds of posts in a game. HUNDREDS. And guess what? I spent the majority of my iso on Pine! I spent the majority of my time advocating for his death. Nobody else's. I spent some time on other reads, yes. Outlining townreads. Outlining other scumreads. Saying places I'd lynch. But I was adamant Pine die, and I made no secret as to why. I was about as clear as I could be: Pine was scum. I knew he was scum. I pointed out the things which made him scum.

[mastina]

I can't for the life of me think of any role that rhymes with aids. I'm gonna take your earlier post that BBmolla isn't confirmed at face value.

I can think of something rhyming with aids, and if so, I would be crying tears of laughter and joy.

I should say no more for obvious reasons.
And it's like 90% I'm wrong anyway.
But I thought of something which if true would put a gigantic smile on my face and make me wish that was me.

[mastina]

Do you think Mastin wouldn't bus/distance from a scum buddy or something?

I can think of a few reasons for why I would form a stance in which I avoid it.

That, not even going into how.
Oh, you know.

It's fucking PINE you're talking about as who my scumbuddy would be.
PINE.
My first frenemy, and you think, honestly, in our first game together in

over two years

(my proxy's having trouble so I can't look up the exact timeline, but Duck Tales mafia along with that one SC multiball game in which you were the serial killer were my last games with him), instead of working with him, instead of buddying up to him, instead of using this as a chance to reunite and reconcile, I instead go "lolbus"?

Go fuck yourself.

[mastina]

Oh and if you think that years-old meta isn't valid, let's try my last scumgame where bussing was actually a possible thing.
Inorganic Chemistry had me adamantly resist the Aristophanes wagon.
The ika bus was basically done out of frustration with a side of need--he had a very clear, unambiguous scumtell. All he had to do was show up in-thread and then his wagon would have collapsed. He did not. And I did it knowing that it would give no town credit: EVERYONE in the game knew that ika was double-bussed. Literally everyone, because every name off of the wagon (save PV) was conftown by the next day. So that wasn't a bus for towncred.

[mastina]

As to your second point, I will admit that my initial read of the game placed mastina as Town because I didn't think her tone was being faked; that it would come from a bus. I gave her the benefit of the doubt. But if you and other vets in the game are saying this is within scum!mastina's range, I will also give you the benefit of the doubt. I absolutely hate being tricked by tone and my gut feeling is that mastina's was Town who just had a really good tell on Pine. If enough people tell me that my gut is being stupid, I'll stop relying on it.

Okay. zefiend's previous posting was null enough: it wasn't town, but it wasn't something I felt was a strong indicator of being scum.

This?

This, though? Pure scumposting.

[mastina]

but holding a vanillize shot is a huge drawback.

It's two-shot.
You really think scum are going to waste a two-shot role N1, in a large theme?

That's like scum blindly using a 1-shot strongman in a mini theme, blindly, on a player who hasn't roleclaimed.

Sure it COULD happen but it'd be absolutely moronic to do. You save the shots until you have actual threats to remove.

[mastina]

@Nero
Interesting. You know, from an outsider perspective, the whole You (Nero)-Titus-Infinity triangle is perplexing. You keep hinting at lynching or flipping Infinity or possibly even that he's scum. You do know that that's Titus's top push?
Or is Infinity more like a "wait til more flips to reassess" type of lynch?

Did I say zefiend's last post was pure scumposting?
I take it back.
zefiend's last post is fucking SAINTLY compared to this.

THIS is essence le scum.

[mastina]

I'm going to just full on claim JailKeeper right here.

Yeah.
I don't need any more than this.

If you think we have a jailkeeper.
AND, on top of the jailkeeper, have a 1x rolestop.
YET ALONE, a JOAT with the 1x rolestop and two other potentially useful abilities.

You're an absolutely shitty balancer.

That's NOT a combination a sane moderator would make.

NOW, on the other hand...a rolestopper/redirector/deflector for scum, with the jailkeeper as town?

That makes a metric fuckton of sense.

So again.

Lynch. Molla.

[mastina]

Pine & Mastin interaction was zero.

Oh, really?

Let's dance.

Because damn fucking straight I knew Pine was scum.
But damn fucking straight they fought back.

I replaced in at 510.
The first post I read was 441. The second post I read? 442, a Pine post. I said scum.
For a similar demonstration of this, I can point you to this: Subject: LicketyQuickety's Mini Normal - 1847

Ugh, this game.

Moving on. I'm inclined to look at the latter part of Josh's wagon to try and identify opportunistic scum smelling blood in the water and going for the kill. Looking at the votes, that suggests to me {Drealmerz, ThinkBig, and LUV}, the 4th, 5th, and 6th votes on him, respectively. The merit of this approach is immediately evident, as Drealmerz scummed right onto the wagon. Regrettably, I spotted that a little too late D1 to save Josh. Fortunately, Vig/SK saw it too and we don't have to spend a lynch on him. That leaves me to look at ThinkBig and LUV. Of the two, LUV seems to not really grok what's going on in this game, and it comes off as a bit unfeigned. I'm inclined to think the sheep onto the Josh wagon was a genuine sheep off of a well-presented (albeit incorrect) case.

That leaves ThinkBig. Drealmerz and TB both went for Josh in rapid succession, elevating that wagon from an early exploration and pressure to L-2. It's hardly a wonder that newbieTown panicked, felt ostracized, and suicided. Taken as a whole, TB's behavior strikes me as opportunistic, as does his daystart congratulating the Vig. He's a bit new too, so it's hardly inconceivable that he just wouldn't know that that sort of thing is a common overcompensating behavior of disappointed scum, on par with betting too big on a bluff in order to cover the fact that you've got nothing. Attack on Flubber in 210 fits with this theory, as it serves to suppress or discredit new perspectives before they appear.

Vote ThinkBig

I'd have to switch accounts to prove it, because I don't think LicketyQuickety released the mod PT in which I stated this, but immediately after that post, I came in and said, "Pine's scum." From that ONE post alone, I read Pine as scum.

The similarity between Pine's 442 this game, and the above post, were uncanny. Because no fucking shit, Pine was scum in both games. So no fucking shit, I'm going to read him the same way for making the same fucking post.

This, I made abundantly clear in 512, my first post in the game.
515, I was finishing my read from page 18 to the current gamestate, before going back.
516, while not mentioning Pine, marked my readthrough.
517, Gin head, questions my accuracy/competency: mudslinging onto my slot. Trying to slow me down. Trying to put me down. Lessen the importance of my reads.
520, I point out Pine's 153 as damning evidence Pine is scum.
523, I tell Desperado to go back onto Pine.
528, I engage with Gin by using my usual strategy--by refusing to actually engage him.
529, Pine is my largest scumread.
530, Gin tries to get an answer from me in spite of my prior refusal. In said post, he continues to discredit me by saying I was putting it in at "surface level". When my town/scum callouts are anything but. It's a science, not an art.
532, he asks for a real answer.
533, I continue to intentionally not give him that info.
534, I give a semi-serious, semi-joke response, still not fully addressing them.
536, Gin throws an insult at me.
537, Gin continues to throw my competency into question.
540, empty question by Gin about me addressed to SirCakez. (Which, by the way, is one reason why SirCakez is scum.)
562, Pine goes "mastina is misreading me", and he throws shit on me for it, pretending I'm worse at reading him than I am.
575, I continue to deliberately not answer Gin's question.
577, I state my strong preference for lynching Pine, because he was scum and a stronger scumread and also the larger scum threat. (SirCakez we can lynch any day. Pine, you cannot.)
584, I call Pine scum, in part because he was townreading me: a Pine who is actually town is just as shitty at reading me as he PRETENDS that I am at reading him. Case and point?
606, where AGAIN, Pine insists that I cannot read him worth a damn, something he KNOWS to be false but was insisting on shoving down the town's throat anyway.
628 was bullshit and I called him out for it at the time: yes we have the game experience he mentions, but no he doesn't have the accuracy reading me whereas YES I do have the accuracy in reading him.
630, I make it clear the reason I'm voting Pine is that I'm making sure he doesn't escape: I wanted him as the DAY ONE LYNCH.
634, I continue to tell Infinity, "Dude, Pine's not town. He's scum".
636, I say the problem with Pine can be summed up as: they haven't once said anything good. Can you argue with that fact? Especially using posts prior to 636? What had they posted which was good? Because if nothing, my point I raised there was A REALLY FUCKING STRONG ONE.
637, I call Pine out on his bullshit buddying to me.
650, I again tell Infinity that Pine is capable of playing this way as scum.
652, I call Gin's 162 as utterly lacking original thought, and being uncharacteristic of what I know of Gin's towngame.
657, my stance on Pine is made clearer: he is my top priority for lynching. All other players secondary. (Sure enough, unless he had that guilty, he was probably escaping!)
658, I explain why I am pushing Pine.
The Gin head did posting, but I ignored it because nothing that was said there was really evidence to me of Gin being town. In this area, I said nothing about them being scum in my iso, so no shit they're not going to respond to me during that time.
916, I reaffirm that my ability to read Pine is not as shitty as Pine says it is.
923, my tone there should've made it clear I absolutely was aiming for a Pine lynch D1.
925, a restatement of the scumteam as I saw it then.
931, where I basically assume Pine is scum for the VCA.
949, refined readslist, where Pine remains firmly at the bottom and I explain my reads in more detail.
954, while I explain my Molla and SirCakez stances, I'm still focused on Pine first and foremost.
1043, I clarify my Pine stance even further.
1044, more of the same.
This is the next period where Gin posted. Gin tried to buddy up to Nacho and me. There was good reason he chose us in 1104. And yes, he wanted me there too. He didn't mention me by name, but while YOU lack the context, I happen to KNOW he wanted me there. (Sadly, the only player who would be able to confirm this is SirCakez and he's scum, so.)
This is why I said in 1113 I wouldn't be available.
Gin might not have been addressing me, but Gin wasn't addressing most of the players in the game. In fact, really any of them. And again, at the time Gin was active, my attention was elsewhere so I wasn't really pointing things out about him when he was around.

Gin posted up a storm, but I don't post again until 1284. Gin's posting is done a lot in "real time". That is, he'll post about things as they are happening. But he won't go post about past events so much. So he wouldn't have had any reason TO interact with me, because I wasn't fucking around at the time.

1306, I say that Pine is still my preferred lynch and point out it's viable.
1308, further clarification of my stance.
1312, I try to get Nero to lynch Pine.
1319, I call the whole Pine wagon town. (And would you look at that? It was! Gee, I wonder why?)
1336, more clarification on exactly why my vote was on Pine.

Thus the day ended.

1520, first post of mine D2, I voted Pine.
1522, I insist Pine's usage of the power was a scumclaim. Clear note?

Infinity was townreading Gin

. I told him that was a mistake. I told him that Gin, as scum, could town it up behind closed doors.

Gin was getting away with it

. I said not to let that shit go.
1558, 1561, 1562, 1563, 1564, Gin all tries to discredit me on the above, insisting it to not be true.
1618, I further describe my Pine scumread.
1619, I point out Gin's "she lied! But I don't get why..." as cognitive dissonance and evidence he was scum.
1624, I posit wagon theory for why Pine is scum, among others.
1630, focus on why the Nacho kill came from Pine.
1644 was basically "Discredit mastina: the post", as EVERYTHING in there was focused on dismantling what I said. Gin suddenly also has an OMGUSy scumread on me.
1663, I explain that Pine as scum would play the wifom game and use a power meant to be used.
1665, I call Gin out on his bullshit and lay out exactly why Gin was scum.
1667, Gin made an accusation against me.
1668 I lay out Pine's mindset as a player, and why this was a scumteam led by him.
1669, more on wagon theory.
1670, I ask Infinity to vote for Pine.
1674, I counter more of Gin's bullshit towards me, and turn it around for why Pine was scum.
1676, more wagon theory, for why Pine is scum.
1678, I flip out at Infinity for not going along with me on Pine.
1679, I make in more detail an explanation for why Pine's kill pattern is what it is.
1680, I basically am pointing out every new post and why it's a sign of Pine being scum.

That's the summary of the Pine-mastina interactions pre-guilty.

That's ANYTHING but "nothing".

Literally over half of my posts were devoted to Pine.
Literally a third of Pine's posting was devoted to me.

[mastina]

Why is it impossible for Mastina to bus Pine?

One: I hate bussing.
Two: Pine had a strong scum role.
Three: Pine is a good friend of mine and someone I would love to play with; bussing him would be counterproductive to that.
Four: I fucking hate bussing.
Five: bussing offers zero strategic value here. What towncred is there to be gained for bussing someone who is going to, BY YOUR OWN FUCKING WORDS, be "confirmed as scum"? Zero. There's zero fucking towncred to be had in calling a doomed scumbuddy scum, and assuming I am an amateurish enough scum player to do that is downright insulting.

Counterpoint:
Why is it impossible for me to just be town who HAS AN ESTABLISHED GAME RECORD WITH PINE, and OFF OF THAT FUCKING GAME HISTORY WITH PINE, was able to determine he was scum?

[mastina]

What the fuck are you talking about?

I read the thread and gave my initial read on mastina. Since then, two people with more tenure have engaged me and I'm trying to walk through their perspective with them. Where did I ever say my read on mastina is now scum or I would consider lynching them?? I said that my position on town-reading mastina based on tone/unlikely to bus Pine was flexible with the proper input.

At this point your are being glaringly dense or scum grasping for straws. There is no way a town mindset concocts some sort of interpretation where my read of mastina flips 180 because of a brief conversation with two players.

And this is more scum posting in case there was any doubt to be had.

[mastina]

Why would Pine avoid her when he could fight her to push a mislynch on her?

Recent game experience which I can't go into--Pine would have damn good reason to believe it would be a Very Bad Idea to push me, and maybe would fear history repeating itself.

(Which incidentally, again, justifies the Nacho nightkill.)

Plus, Pine is a cruel evil bastard. He doesn't want me mislynched. He doesn't want me nightkilled, either, if he can help it. Pine's preference for me is for me to be alive, and to be endgamed in lylo. He'll deviate from that as necessary, but otherwise he prefers that. See also: literally every Pine scumgame with mastina as town. Except Duck Tales, where I pushed through a Pine lynch D1. (And thus, he couldn't influence his team.) And I do mean. Literally EVERY Pine scumgame with me as town. He kept me alive for as long as humanly possible, killing me only when convenient.

[mastina]

Pine ignored Mastin.

Pine ignored the fucking game.

You can maybe count the number of Pine posts this game on a single hand post-mastina replace in.

Half of which...
OH YEAH.

Were throwing shit onto me.

Anything but ignoring me.

[mastina]

Mastin has the same read on Cake- as Pine.

Not the same.
Almost the same.
My read on Pine was stronger. I not only have the game experience with Pine, I have the much stronger evidence from Pine/Gin's posting.

Thus, why my vote was...you know. On Pine, rather than SirCakez. (Who I did briefly vote.) I'm not a double-voter, so I couldn't vote both of them. Or them plus Molla for that matter.

And if you think I'm scum with SirCakez.

Again.
I'll happily help 'bus' SirCakez!

The shit you pointed out by him isn't proof that I'm his scumbuddy. What it IS, though, is proof that HE is scum.

[mastina]

Why is no one asking me anything
I feel objectified

Hmm, this attitude seems familiar.

I wonder what other player has taken this stance in the game?

Perhaps a flipped player?

[mastina]

I expect better from Mastina.

That's funny, because this is me almost in top form!

I could maybe be a little bit better. More active, more aggressive, more strong in my pushes. Like, giving more on them, pleading with players stronger to follow me, insisting I am right more, maybe things like that. There's a few reasons that I'm not (this game is physically, mentally, and most of all, emotionally exhausting on me, among others), but basically...

...I have a fire lit under me right now. It's almost never that I get this confident in my reads.
Yeah, I've PMed the mod a few occasional thoughts here and there which I haven't shared, but by and large I've been out here. In the thread. And feeling like I'm in the zone. The magical zone of just...being right. Of being on the mark. Of having the game locked down. And I am NOT letting go of that.

[mastina]

As soon as he used his ability he was very likely to get lynched and scum would have known this day 1.

One, factually false: he used his ability, and almost got away with it. Drunken Piper claimed a guilty to lynch him, but without that guilty the lynch wasn't materializing.
Two, there was no way of knowing that it would be used N1 during D1. As stated, there were multiple candidates for Rogue Leader. Said candidates had different teams in mind, at different points in the game. Including Infinity, who had me as a potential pick.
This, WELL before the end of D1.
Three, by your own fucking words: if scum are going to be confscum, then BY DEFINITION, there can be no early town credit in bussing them.
BY DEFINITION.

That's like saying scum voting scum who have a cop guilty on them are doing so for the towncred.

It's egregious to the highest level.

There was no towncred to be had in bussing Pine. There's no timeline which makes it make sense. On any level.

Your argument is literally the furthest thing possible from the truth and if you were ANY OTHER FUCKING PLAYER, your insistence on this being true AGAINST ALL LOGIC, against all semblance of reason, would make me think you're scum, but no.
You're just fucking Nero Cain.
The worst tunneler on the site who is good when he tunnels on scum but absolutely worth jackshit when he wastes time and effort tunneling on town.

You could be voting scum right now.
All it'd take is for you to follow through on what you apparently believe anyway and vote BBMolla!
But you won't because you're too stuck up in your ass to realize that you. are.

wrong

.

I am town. Period.
BBMolla is scum.
Your Molla scumread is good.
Your mastina scumread is not.

That simple.

[mastina]

Again, doctor, hider, BP, and cop are all fakeclaims that can't be proven false except sometimes by a tracker or by a follower.

Doctor is easily proven false.
Hider, similarly so.
BP, also easy.
And cop is suicidal.

And again.

You're saying this with HOW MANY theme games, ON THIS SITE, worth of experience?

I say, with LITERALLY DOZENS OF THEME GAMES ON THIS SITE, worth of experience.
Like, 200+ total games on site (not including marathons) with half of them being themes.
That mods give scum safeclaims of their actual role, nine times out of ten.
Maybe they change details. Maybe they omit details. Scum have an ability only scum would ever have? That might be absent from the town version of their claim. But they keep it as close to the theme material as possible. They match safeclaims as closely to the original as possible.
Don't believe me?

Okay, how about This nifty little guide by Vi?

B. Safeclaims
This is a tangential subject to massclaims. If a role's alignment is as expected in canon - regardless of whether you are applying the precautions from the previous minisection - your scum players will need safeclaims.
The first rule of a safeclaim is that it has to be believable. The previous discussion has already touched on scum getting easily caught after claiming characters so minor that they are unlikely to be in the game when all the main characters are present. Precaution 2 from the massclaim section is the conscious and deliberately planned way to deal with this; you can do the same thing to a lesser extent in any game provided you ensure that the safeclaims you give the scum are not as obscure as a significant number of the actual Town roles.

The second rule of a safeclaim is that it has to fit the abilities the original role has.

Safeclaims that don't fit the roles the scum are likely to claim are useless. Ideally, a scum player should be able to fullclaim each of its nonfactional abilities with different flavor names and be able to pass a spot check for flavor. This requires you to think about which Town roles would have equivalent abilities to your scum roles, and match them together in safeclaims.

Fuck just read many of the completed Theme Games here!
Hunger Games, modded by Firebringer is a relevant one.

Spoiler: Scum Lover Creature

Welcome! You were sent as Tribute by Nexus, and are

Victor Creature from Little Italy

, a

Lover

. You are aligned with the

Queue Agents

.

Life was great in Victor's Village back in Little Italy. You were happy there. You had friends, you had family, you had even fallen in love with a fellow Victor. Upon hearing of the Quarter Quell's twist, you immediately started to worry about your love, and how you were both going to survive. You had even both concocted a plan with other Tributes to sabotage the games. Unfortunately for you, the Queue expected something like this would happen so they injected you with tracker jacker venom and reprogrammed your thoughts. You are now working for the Queue to stop the Rebels. Deep down inside though, your love for Sickofit1138 remains and you've vowed to end your life if you can't save them as you know you won't be able to live without them anyway.

Abilities:

Lover - Your love for Sickofit1138 is strong, and if they are to die, so will you.

Agent kill - You share a factional kill with the other Agents.

Secret Hideout - You and the rest of the Agents can meet here to discuss your plans out of earshot of the Rebels.

Vote - You can vote during the day.

Win Condition:

You win when the Rebels have been eliminated or nothing can stop this from happening and at least one Queue Agent is alive.

[/center]

Spoiler: Scum 1 Shot Strongman BulbaFenix

Welcome! You were sent as Tribute by Radja and are

Victor Bulbafenix from Mayfair Club

, a

1 Shot Strongman

. You are aligned with the

Queue Agents

.

You came to these Games just like the other Victors; pissed off and looking for revenge. You were with them in their plans to sabotage the Games and stick it to the President, and you were starting to look forward to it. Unfortunately, the Game Makers got wind of rebellion and started to plan a counter attack. As one of the strongest competitors they saw you as a threat. They took you in the middle of the night to a lab and injected you with tracker jacker venom to reprogram your brain to do their bidding. Now you're one of their Agents, trying to stop the Rebels from succeeding.

Abilities:

Strongman - Once during the game, you may use your strength to surpass another Victor's protection to kill them.

Agent kill - You share a factional kill with the other Agents.

Secret Hideout - You and the rest of the Agents can meet here to discuss your plans out of earshot of the Rebels.

Vote - You can vote during the day.

Win Condition:

You win when the Rebels have been eliminated or nothing can stop this from happening and at least one Queue Agent is alive.

[/center]

Spoiler: Goon Blawb

Welcome! You were sent as Tribute by T-Bone and are

Victor Blawb from Coney Island

, a

Goon

. You are aligned with the

Queue Agents

.

As one of the oldest Victors, you are far too out of shape to physically compete in these games. Luckily, you were always known more for your brain and these younger Victors both fear and respect you. This made you perfect for the Queue's mission to squash the Rebel Victors. You were taken and injected with tracker jacker venom then brainwashed. You have been tasked with stopping the Rebellion and the rumored sabotage of the Games.

Abilities:

Agent kill - You share a factional kill with the other Agents.

Secret Hideout - You and the rest of the Agents can meet here to discuss your plans out of earshot of the Rebels.

Vote - You can vote during the day.

Win Condition:

You win when the Rebels have been eliminated or nothing can stop this from happening and at least one Queue Agent is alive.

[/center]

Spoiler: Goon Farside22

Welcome! You were sent as Tribute by Untrod Tripod, and are

Victor farside22 from the Theme Park

, a

Goon

. You are aligned with the

Queue Agents

.

You went down in history as one of the most ruthless Tributes ever. You never thought twice about doing what you had to do to survive, which contributed to one of the biggest blood baths in Games history. You had come back intending on turning the tides and helping the Rebellion, but the Queue had other plans. You were sedated and taken against your will to be injected with tracker jacker venom. The Gamer Makers have brainwashed you into thinking that the Rebels are the enemy and now have you working as one of their Agents.

Abilities:

Agent kill - You share a factional kill with the other Agents.

Secret Hideout - You and the rest of the Agents can meet here to discuss your plans out of earshot of the Rebels.

Vote - You can vote during the day.

Win Condition:

You win when the Rebels have been eliminated or nothing can stop this from happening and at least one Queue Agent is alive.

[/center]

Game Event:

Cornucopia

Anyone from your team can activate this event and will get to pick one shot ability from a select three.
1 shot strong man, 1 shot Jailkeeper, 1 shot Role cop.
You must select a player in your team to receive this.
The town will receive something from this also.
A town player will receive a 1 shot Tracker from activation from this.

Spoiler: Fake Claims

Welcome! You were sent as Tribute by Nexus and are

Victor Creature from New York

, a

Lover

. You are aligned with the

Rebels

.

Life was great in Victor's Village back in Little Italy. You were happy there. You had friends, you had family, you had even fallen in love with a fellow Victor. Upon hearing of the Quarter Quell's twist, you immediately started to worry about your love, and how you were both going to survive. You had even both concocted a plan with other Tributes to sabotage the games. You became determined that you would no matter what make sure your lover would win the games or die trying. Your past victory in the games taught you how to survive, and using that you have honed your skills to become a better fighter, survivalist, and even team player.

Abilities:

Lover- You are in love with Sickofit1138, you can't live without them. If they die, so will you.
Vote - You can vote during the day.

Win Condition:
You win when all of the Queue Agents have been eliminated.

[/center]

Welcome! You were sent as Tribute by Radja and are

Victor Bulbafenix from Mayfair Club

, a

Vanilla Townie

. You are aligned with the

Rebels

.

You came to these Games just like the other Victors, you won a past game and thought you paid your dues. Your games were filled more younger tributes than most. While the normal age of a tribute in the games is usually 16, your games age average was 13. Most of the ones you killed were younger than you, you having a younger sister couldn't help but feel that if the situations were slightly different these could have been your siblings. You continued on after the games. Now years later entering these games you can't help but feel you're are paying for your crimes in the previous game.

Abilities:

Vote - You can vote during the day.

Win Condition:
You win when all of the Queue Agents have been eliminated.

[/center]

Welcome! You were sent as Tribute by T-Bone and are

Victor Blawb from Coney Island

, a

Vanilla Townie

. You are aligned with the

Rebels

.

As one of the oldest Victors, you are far too out of shape to physically compete in these games. Luckily, you were always known more for your brain and these younger Victors both fear and respect you. In your previous game, you were known for being an unusual case. Normally careers group together in order to eliminate the weaker competition. While this did happen in your games, it proved ineffective for when you created a pack of your own that was just normal tributes. The careers were wiped out very early, with you eventually coming out on top in the end against your own pack when they betrayed you. Now coming back into the arena you hope to stay away from packs and just duck your head till all the threats just take care of themselves.

Abilities:

Vote - You can vote during the day.

Win Condition:
You win when all of the Queue Agents have been eliminated.

[/center]

Welcome! You were sent as Tribute by Untrod Tripod and are

Victor Farside22 from Theme Park

, a

Vanilla Townie

. You are aligned with the

Rebels

.

You went down in history as one of the most ruthless Tributes ever. You never thought twice about doing what you had to do to survive, which contributed to one of the biggest blood baths in Games history. You come in intending to make more peace than enemies. In your previous games you took no one as an ally, so you think because you never betrayed anyone you can be a more trustable person to work with in making a team. You intend to change your reputation from the most ruthless tribute to a decent human being. After years of being looked as a monster, maybe someone will look at you as a human who just had to abandon their humanity in the hopes to survive in a awful situation.

Abilities:

Vote - You can vote during the day.

Win Condition:
You win when all of the Queue Agents have been eliminated.

[/center]

Here's one from A Song of Ice and Fire (also half-Firebringer if I recall correctly):

Spoiler: Role PM

Welcome, you are a

DarkSpawn,

aligned with

DarkSpawn

Abilities:

Vote:

You can vote for whoever you want lynched during the day

Chat:

Your allies are [REDACTED] and you can talk to them at night here: Link

Warden Abilities:

Tracker:

You follow a player at night to see who they targeted.

Calling:

You can only use your powers two nights total in the game.

Win Condition:

You win when your faction controls 50% of the vote or nothing can stop you.

You are feigning to be this:

Welcome, you are a

Assassin Rogue

,

aligned with

Thedas

Abilities:

Vote:

You can vote for whoever you want lynched during the day

Warden Abilities:

Assassin:

You follow a player at night to see who they targeted.

Calling:

You can only use your powers two nights total in the game.

Win Condition:

You win when the darkspawn threat is gone.

EXACTLY identical.

My game, Gistou?
Also identical. (Not gonna even bother linking to it since, you know. I fucking modded it, I know what happened in it.)

Not all Theme games have fakeclaims as necessary.
But a fair amount--INCLUDING FIREBRINGER PAST GAMES--have fakeclaims identical to real role, aside from flavor.

[mastina]

I've seen stuff like doctor + joat w/1-shot roleblock in mini normals. In a large theme, there's really no reason why this is not possible.

Roleblocker != rolestop.
They're opposites.

And if you MEANT doctor + Joat with a rolestop, what did the scum have to counter that?

[mastina]

why the fuck are you ignoring me

One, I catch up chronologically.

Two, because nothing you're saying is stuff I'm responding to.

It's 4 AM, I've been at this shit since basically midnight, and I'm not going to be able to put this much effort in every fucking day, and yet here I am doing exactly that.

[mastina]

Town roleblocker and doctor are meant to serve the same purpose, to block kills...

The difference is, doctors are used defensively: it's not hard to predict who the scum are going to kill.

Roleblockers are used offensively: it is INCREDIBLY difficult to predict who the scum performing the nightkill would be, and it's impossible to clear town unless there's only one scum left. Plus, a roleblocker blocking a player isn't the most likely cause for a failed nightkill in most cases. Doctors, jailkeepers, and bulletproofs make up the backbone of failed scum NKs.

[mastina]

I guess my main issue with molla being scum is why he didn't just claim VT. He'd still know he'd been vanillaized if he really was a VT because of the special power.

Would he?

Like. Serious question.

How would he know?

Do WE even know?
All we have is HIS word on the subject.

[mastina]

Mastina, until you address the substance of my argument, I am not reading your word vomit.

Whatever your issue was, I'm like 90% certain I did in fact address it.

[mastina]

I guess my main issue with molla being scum is why he didn't just claim VT. He'd still know he'd been vanillaized if he really was a VT because of the special power.

Scum!molla doesn't necessarily know if a VT gets a message

I'm pretty sure he would. You would have to know if suddenly you couldn't use your special ability anymore...

It's not a matter of whether the VT gets a message or not.
It's a matter of whether the VT loses their special power or not.
Would he be aware of it one way or another?

I don't think he would be. Vanillaize just means 'turn vanilla'. But EVERY player this game, even vanilla players, has a role. So it could be read either way. How do we know that Molla would know the way the scum role worked?

[mastina]

Rhetoric. The fact that Infinity was up for RL at one point and wanted others has shit all to do with anything.

False. Timeline has everything to do with it.
Your whole point boils down to:
"Heartless was the Rogue Leader. Heartless made their picks known. None were scum, thus, scum knew they weren't being picked. Thus, they knew that Pine would use his role. And therefore, mastina knew Pine was going down and could bus them."
THAT'S YOUR FUCKING ARGUMENT.
BUT IT IGNORES.
HOW HEARTLESS WASN'T EVEN CLOSE TO BEING THE ROGUE LEADER AT THE TIME.
At the time, Infinity was the Rogue Leader vote.
And Infinity had me as a pick.
The chronology doesn't fit. So no. Not rhetoric. That'd be YOU, bringing up an irrelevant point.

[mastina]

So you haven't played with Pine in over two years and you just remember everything about his play?

Yes. I talked about this in EXTENSIVE detail. I don't remember if I talked about it in extensive detail in THIS game or not, but basically, it boils down to this:
Pine's play has not evolved in the six years he's been around. Mine has.
When we first met each other, Pine was basically as good as he is now. He used basically the same strategies he does now. He hasn't changed much if at all in all that time. Pine siteflaked from the site at some point, and then over a year later he came back. When he came back, though, I recognized his play. It was still the same as ever. Then he left again. And he's back now a third time. And once more, his play is virtually identical to what it was before.

When I first met Pine, he was able to fool me more than once, because I was in my infancy, and he was a strong player who was a blind spot. But then I deliberately went about trying to improve myself.

I got better

. He didn't. I've kept playing, ever since he joined. With maybe one or two brief breaks, I've been playing continuously these last six years, playing literally hundreds of games. I keep the mindset, consistently, constantly, that I could always do better. That I need to be better each game than I was in the last game. I'm not happy with my growth as a player. Consistently, constantly, I am left wishing I was better than I was, and so, I try my damnedest to do exactly that and improve.
I read my past games--including games Pine was in--almost constantly. There are players I can neglect playing for, for years, and still have vivid memories of them. You, for instance. PeregrineV would be another. And this is in part because in a sense, I never did stop playing with them. I kept myself reading our past games. And I kept reading some current games even if I wasn't in them.

And you know what? It worked. I improved. I went from someone atrociously bad to someone at least halfway decently respectable. I went from being someone nobody listened to and for good reason, to being someone that people listened to and with good reason, that reason being I knew what I was talking about. I've still got a long way to go yet. Still got a lot of growth to make as a player. But I am GOOD. And I know how to fucking read Pine.

So stop fucking disrespecting me by implying I don't. Pine is a player who I pay attention to more than any other player in the game. More than AngryPidgeon. More than zMuffinman. I pay attention to Pine first and foremost. And I get a read on him as a result. That. simple.

[mastina]

cake plz vote zefiend
mastin plz vote zefiend

I'm predicting SirCakez will refuse (or maybe he'll join briefly, but leave for some bullshit reason), because they are in fact scumbuddies.

The problem is, I can help you lynch either of them, yet you won't give me anything in return. You won't help me lynch BBMolla when they flip scum, and that's the only thing which can make me switch. If you're going to be pursuing town after you lynch scum, it's not worth it. It's only if you pursue scum after lynching scum that it's worth a vote.

I KNOW that if I lynch BBMolla, you will continue to go after zefiend, maybe considering SirCakez.
I know that if I lynch zefiend, you'll be quick to pursue some moronic mislynch.

Am I wrong?

Tell me that, when zefiend flips scum, you'd consider going after BBMolla. Tell that to me with a straight face, absolute 100% sincerity. Do that, and you'll get my vote there. Otherwise, I'm sorry. No matter how much zefiend may be scum, I simply cannot in good faith vote there.

[mastina]

Welcome toReck's Restrospecitve Rehash.
ChannelDeliBird busses Nexus in post 168. CDB rides that to win the game.

Yes we know the theory behind bussing. The theory behind bussing has been known for years. You don't need to tell me about how in one game, mafia managed to bus their scumbuddy and ride the bus to victory. Mafia have also claimed miller and rode that to victory. Town have fakeclaimed roles and caused scum to lose because of it, too. These are things that have happened. They are also utterly irrelevant because they are absolutely unrelated to me.
What would *I* do as a player?

What would *I* be giving a game as scum?

Sure as fuck wouldn't be this!

Welcome to NY172
I read a few of your posts, and felt it was your scum game. It was.

Oh you mean that game second to ONLY ONE OTHER GAME in history which I have disavowed as being a scumgame of mine?
You mean the game I almost replaced out of because I was too busy being mislynched and losing Tales of You?
You mean the game where I wasn't actually playing the fucking game?

And you think that is at all similar to this game?
Fuck off.

That game wasn't a scumgame. That game wasn't a game.
Fuck, let's play your game. Let's use that game as a baseline for reads. Iso me that game. Control-F "AP" (lots of false positives, but you'll get enough), then "Angry". AP was my second frenemy, after Pine. We had a similar dynamic. What was my read on him that game? Neutral to positive almost the entire time.
My other scumbuddies were Yates and ThAdmiral. Look at my opinion on Yates: hard-town. Look at my opinion on ThAd: hard-town.

I was hard-townreading my whole fucking team that game.
Because, oh yeah! Guess what?
I don't fucking bus.
I don't. Just don't. It's a stupid decision on every level. It gives me nothing and costs me dearly. I quite literally wrote the fucking book on NOT bussing, and saying I bussed Pine is again the ultimate insult to my ability to read Pine. By saying I am scum bussing Pine, you are saying that I could not be town who read Pine correctly. You are invalidating my strength as a player. One of the ONE fucking things I am good at. Is reading certain players. That I call my friends. Pine is among them.

[mastina]

Vote: SirCakez

I'm more willing to do this than zefiend, but it has much the same problem.
Would SirCakez flipping scum actually get you listening to me?
Also, I don't feel the need to establish myself as town by lynching yet another scum. That won't stop idiots from scumreading me, and it won't give people who

aren't

scumreading me any more proof than what they already have. In short, it won't change how people view me at all, because they'll make excuses or because they already knew and didn't need proof.

What I DO need to do is to lynch the scum who aren't getting lynched without me pushing there. zefiend is scum, who can be lynched today or any day. SirCakez is scum, who I feel can be lynched any day but there may be resistance, which is why he's a slightly better lynch than zefiend. But BBMolla? Molla, if left alive, won't be caught. He will get away with it. And that's why I'm not moving my vote unless I have no choice but to move my vote. Today we will lynch scum. I guarantee you that much. It's just a matter of which scum we lynch.

[mastina]

zefiend is scum. you see it. i see it. let's get this done.

It'll get done
-If there's nothing more to say, or
-If there's a possibility of a mislynch, or
-If deadline is encroaching, or
-If you give me your word that you will, sincerely, legitimately, consider BBMolla as being scum.
Under those circumstances, zefiend will be lynched.

I'll join without you needing to ask me given any of those conditions coming true.

At this time, none of them have. And so, at this time, I am going to continue pushing my strongest scumread.

The scumteam here is almost definitely zefiend/SirCakez/BBMolla. But my job here is to convince you to listen to me on the others. Not to end the day as fast as possible. zefiend will be lynched today in all likelihood. I'll fucking DEMAND it if there's so much of a CHANCE of a name outside these three being mislynched today. But right now, I want to focus on BBMolla. I want to focus on lynching the most dangerous scum. I want to focus on lynching the player who most likely is in charge of the scumteam right now. And that'd be BBMolla.

[mastina]

Basically, to give an idea of my thoughts right now, it's that there's a lynch order, just like before.
BBMolla > SirCakez > zefiend.

zefiend is caught scum. Easily caught scum. Everyone sane knows he's scum. We can nab him at any time, and on future days if he's alive he'll not be able to escape. He IS eating rope this game, no matter what.
SirCakez is scum, and a fair majority of us know he is. And yet, he is not without key players defending him. That could cause long-term interference. He's not someone I think will make it to endgame as scum. He's someone I THINK will be getting lynched no matter what. But I don't actually KNOW it. It's possible he will escape. So, not the best candidate, but not the worst.

BBMolla is scum, but everyone is resisting the idea he is. Most of the key players this game insist he is town. This is an incredible danger, ESPECIALLY given his claimed role--if he actually has it and isn't vanillaized, he has the potential to absolutely DEVASTATE the town's PR usage. He is also likely the one in charge of the scum's NK after Pine died, so I see him as the greatest threat, and thus the best lynch.

I will compromise on SirCakez if I can't get BBMolla.
I will compromise on zefiend if I can't get either SirCakez or BBMolla.
But I still have that as my preferred lynch order, because I still hold true to Molla being the largest risk factor here.

[mastina]

We need wagons to make this game go forward because right now it's stuck.

I agree with the sentiment of us needing wagonS, plural!

Everyone hopping onto zefiend isn't that!

Like.

I'm calling bullshit here on the idea of the game being stuck.

*I* felt the game was stuck on D1, yes.
But then I got a read affirmation. Actually, I've gotten four. I misread TheThinker, and recalibrated my reads given that. Yet I was right on Nacho, Pine, Desperado, AND Klingoncelt, and I used the information from their flips, and the given situation, and how things developed, to further my reads. That got my momentum going. Now, I am HARD pushing three players, all as scum. zefiend is among them, yes.

But I think the game would benefit most from having more than one wagon on scum today. Everyone piling onto zefiend makes VCA for today worthless: scum would know zefiend was going down and be able to position themselves, and town know zefiend is scum and thus would vote him, rendering the votes largely a race against time/patience/others as to who could be on the wagon first. Any VCA done would be entirely arbitrary. Would there be a difference between you being the first or final vote? How about me? Nero? Heartless? You'll gain virtually nothing if there is no opposition to zefiend.

I know this from experience. (I can't really talk about it yet, give me about a week.) You gain information by having a divided town. You gain information by having diverging opinions. You gain information by having multiple wagons, especially if they are all on scum. If for no other reason than that, that is enough for me to not be on zefiend at this time.

I will vote zefiend if we need a lynch.
I will vote zefiend if the alternative is a mislynch.
I will vote zefiend if I have reason to believe the town has all the information it needs.

But because none of those are currently true, my vote will remain on BBMolla because I want attention there. I want pressure there. I want people to realize why he's scum.