Scummies Ideas, Suggestions and Comments Thread
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I don't think Best Role Claim is likely to come back. It's such a specific award that focuses on one very narrow element of playing when we don't do the same for other actions that are equally as worthy, it doesn't get much nomination love, it's extreeeemly context specific (whether someone wins the award or not depends heavily upon game elements), and it may negatively influence game behavior (though I doubt this).
That said, we are looking into adding an award that captures some of what we like about Best Role Claim: namely that it recognizes good play in an individual thread that doesn't require being good year round. We're still discussing what the best way to implement this is, however.
Best Gambit has been suggested before, but it's just not a good award. While I don't really believe Best Role Claim causes bad behavior, Best Gambit may well do so.
I understand your concern with Smooth Operator. That's one of the reasons we've made a few changes to the award. First, we changed the name it's being called in the award to Excellent Moderation. This isn't a true change as it's always been its "official" name, but I think that puts a broader look at moderation policies. Second, we changed it to a body of work award. While doing good vote counts, etc. in any individual game isn't all that special, being a consistently good moderator who acts swiftly, fairly, etc. is something we should want to celebrate.
I don't think we'll do shared scummies except where it makes sense. This is an awards show, not a participation trophy.
I see why you suggest the body of work award that you do (sort of a best rounded player), but I don't think it's a practical idea, and I like that we recognize the very different functions that scum and town players do..-
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In post 5, chamber wrote:I was throwing around the idea of merit based achievements instead of the classical way scummies are handled with someone over aim the other day. The entire process for awarding them atm seems flawed because I think judges are rarely as invested as they'd need to be to make strong choices, and the nomination process requires you actually get nominated for a given award. Examples of achievements being something like winning > x% of your town games, winning > y% of your scum games, never getting mislynched as town, never getting lynched as mafia, being in a game where you were only on scum lynches. I'm sure you guys can think of more. The idea would be objective awards that could be handed out to any number of people.
Issues with this are the current method of display of scummies, and actually tracking it all, but hopefully that would be worked out on the backed of the site by next year (which if I understand correctly is what you are taking suggestions for?)
This would make our site into a very statistics based entity. It'd probably also mean we start to do things like ranked/unranked games (or else have conversations about whether we count normals differently than themes, etc), etc. That's not to totally dismiss the idea, but it's something that until now we as a community have resisted a great deal.
Frankly it's out of the pervue of the scummies steering committee as well. Personally, my reaction is extremely negative to it. But I don't feel that my position on the SSC gives me any more authority to judge the validity of this suggestion any more than any other individual community member.Last edited by zoraster on Thu May 03, 2012 5:47 am, edited 1 time in total..-
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I actually agree with Ice, chamber. Scummies are pretty far removed. While best Gambit might cause a player to gambit when he would not, instituting statistics and the like WOULD mean that people would start to make different choices in what games they play, who they play against, etc.
The entire history of ranked online gaming stands attests to this..-
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Maybe we should just bring people in on what the actual suggestion was than hint around at it. I do appreciate you guys not singling me out, but I'm okay:
\In post 156, zoraster wrote:I think quadz has a point in that something a little less serious might be a positive thing. Something to sort of document the lighter side of mafia. But Funniest Role Claim has been seriously played out. It was probably funny half a decade ago when someone claimed something krazy, but it's lost a lot of its zing.
So instead, why not something more general:
The That Funny Thing Happened Award
Given for an in game post or series of posts that tickle the participants and judges. Given to as many people as the judges feel the award justifies.
This way, we get what we really want: links to funny in game stuff. It could be a role claim, but it could also be something really funny like banter between two people or something.
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And how about replacing the Best Role Claim with aBest Individual Performance in a Single Game. First, this is not unprecedented. Until 2008, we had this award, essentially. Second, the way I'd like to see it implemented is that people nominate for Don Corleone and Paragon body of work awards, and while considering that the judges pull out some really notable performances. Most of the time, people are nominated for Don Corleone and Paragon for individual performances anyway. My worry is that if it's a direct nomination that we'll really weaken and water down the Paragon and Don Corleone award and vice versa.
I think this allows a spectacular performance, perhaps capped off by an amazing role claim, to shine through in a way that in a body of work award it does not necessarily. But it's far broader than just best role claim.
there's been a good deal of discussion since, but I see no reason you can't get the water straight from the hose at this point in time..-
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come up with 5 people you think potentially deserve a golden fedora. I think that might make it easier for me to think about the award. Because to me it's a lifetime achievement award, and thinking about the types of people that would be up might make it better.
Will Vi nominate Tar? Tune in next week!
I like the most memorable moments thing. probably time to refer it to the SCC..-
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In post 105, Mr. Flay wrote:In post 102, zoraster wrote:i don't mean to downplay what they do, but if we just give awards to the admins, we might as well not give them at all.
I don't necessarily think we deserve one, certainly not just for being admins.
BUT to be fair, people who aren't admins tend to get the "Name should be inOrangeLights" award nominations. It's kind of a tautology...
Absolutely. I don't necessarily have a problem with giving admins awards, though I think that tends to make the judges jobs interesting if you allow it for essentially being an admin. But I guess I had a knee-jerk reaction to any award that's set up primarily to be given to three people. I know Amrun obviously didn't mean just those people, but if the three suggested possibilities are all admins, my pattern recognition gland goes beep beep beep.
And if it IS something we only want to give to admins, why not just have an "admin service" medal that's put under each admin's names with a star for each year of completed service.
MeMe, for what it's worth, got hers as a sort of retirement thing..-
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Yeah. Unless we go chamber's route of statistics and badges and stuff and a leaderboard, it's going to be difficult to do with any level of objectivity.
I mean, look at what I had to do to get some level of objectivity in my team mafia games (I'm actually kind of proud of that system this year). A long time ago I tried to put together sort of a modified ELO system that was interesting, but probably a bad idea to do universally and far too much work to get anything approaching a decent sample size.
I just think the game itself is pretty subjective. What's good or bad play is often in the eye of the beholder. And that's ESPECIALLY true if you're doing an overall award..-
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The other thing is that we're not epicmafia or some other site where people can get through 20, 50, 100, etc. games in a month. If we were, we might be able to do some interesting things with statistics and have a good enough sample size to make some sort of thing about it. But the average person probably doesn't play more than 20 games in a year on MS. Let's say you're trying to find the best scum player in the game for the previous year. At 20 games a year, he'll average 4.6 games as scum (at the 3:10 ratio) in that year. Those 4 or 5 games are a ton of evidence to consider when you're doing it subjectively. But no matter how many elements you can figure to pull out of each game for scum, 4 or 5 games is not really enough to make an objective claim..-
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Smooth Operator is actually the nickname for the Excellent Moderation scummy, but the nickname kind of gave the award a life of its own. I like Reck's suggestion, but I still think there's a place for recognizing those moderators that run the bread and butter good games, even if those are fairly difficult to distinguish. What I might suggest doing is splitting Excellent Moderation/Best Moderator Body of Work award and the Smooth Operator awards. My problem with simply eliminating smooth operator is that our scummies already skew heavily toward those that run Large Themes even though those are only a fraction of our total games played, and I'd like some recognition for people who simply run smooth games..-
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it's one of those crazy contraptions where a set of dominos sets off a toaster which burns a magazine which's smoke sets off a smoke detector which scares a bird which jangles its cage which sets a ball rolling down a ramp that flips a switch on an electric kettle, which brews the tea that you're after..-
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I still would like to recognize those that do not do complicated games with recognition. Having someone who is "best in class" among those, even if their work is not as impressive because it is "easier," I still want them recognized for that. I think it sends a good message. Yes, maybe at some point it becomes a thing of the past when automatic vote counts come in, but we can change it then. Anyway, I'm not holding my breath on those, but I would love to be suprrised..-
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Well, for a moment let's assume you're right about biases, friends, etc., which I think is mostly but not entirely unfair.
Do you really think that an overall award that would likely be seen at least as high on the scummy hierarchy as Paragon and Don Corleone if not higher would really make it so that those things aren't problems?
It's possible that such an award benefits you because you're really good at both sides of the game, but it does not do so because it isn't subject to the whims of judges while the others are..-
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I don't mind a grace period that is up to the nomination deadline with the provision that if your game doesn't get nominated because there wasn't enough time, you'll have to wait until next year. And also if your game gets nominated in one year, it cannot the next.
But really, that kind of just shifts the problem from (in this year's case) January 1st to January 11th. A line has to be drawn at some point, and someone is going to have to wait like 18 months to see if they won..-
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Well, here's what I'd say about Smooth Operator
Get rid of it or at least make it "Best Moderation" and make that award about the general body of work. Really make it about who is the best mod over the past year, and stop focusing on just vote counts and stuff. That can be a piece of it, but it should also focus on how fun the games were that he ran, how many, and so forth.
Then the "Best Theme Design" becomes the single game award.
I actually think Best Normal/Open will go to Open game design more than Normal. In that case, it goes not to the mod but to the designer..-
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In post 388, Kublai Khan wrote:Nominees should not be allowed to judge the categories that they are nominated for anymore.
They weren't this year either. There was too much nominee chatter though. My suggested policy for next year is to say that if you post in a category's thread, you're disqualified from winning it. That's good because it'll let people who are nominated but don't think they have any chance of winning to still say something, but with the knowledge it makes it a certainty. Generally speaking, it's not that hard to narrow nominees down to 2 or 3 even in the biggest categories.Last edited by zoraster on Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:54 am, edited 2 times in total..-
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first, sorry i wasn't more help with organizing things this year. Things have been kind of hectic and I've had a few other things on my plate MS side.
yeah. Bork should have won the Smooth Operator award. That he didn't was a failing of something. Equinox was an okay substitute for him, but the fact that there were arguments for Magua, who only moderated two games the entire year, only one of which was particularly notable (and the third in a series using similar mechanics even), was being seriously considered was not great. Not because I don't love Magua's mod style -- I certainly do. But because a body of work award where two of the selections have moderated 8 or so successful games and another who did 2 shouldn't really be in question.
I think maybe we should step back and rethink what are the things we want to recognize and what are the things that we can actually differentiate? In other words, clearing our minds about award categories, what are realistic things we can target that make our site better or show off a player's ability, etc.
For example here are some things that may be worthy of recognition without regard to differentiating them:
Player Side
The person who is toughest to catch as scum
The person who finds scum the best
The person who can control the town to get the lynches he wants to best (probably in some combination of either of the two above)
The person who makes games more fun to play in, not just funny or nice or whatever but people that make the game better by their presence.
The person who pulled victory from the mouth of defeat
The person who helped new players get better (IC or otherwise)
The person who players think of as the best overall player, regardless of their side.
The person who has shown the most improvement over the past year and is now one of the best players on the site
Moderator Side
The moderator who comes up with the most original ideas
The moderator who executes and refines an idea the best
The moderator who creates the most fun environment
The moderator who provided the best games over the past year
The moderator who did the nitty-gritty of moderating the best
Games
The game that's the most entertaining to read for an outsider
The game that shows off a town's teamwork best
The game that shows off a scum's teamwork best
The game that was most closely fought
The game that had the most original idea behind it
The game that used power roles the most effectively
Community Side
The poster who was the most thoughtful about mafia
The reviewer who helped games the most
The listmod who surveyed the most people in Large Theme Games
The person who makes the site a better place just by posting
The funniest poster
The most intelligent poster
Anyway that's a start. Feel free to add more things to that list. Of course not all of these can be made into an award. Some things are just too vague to really determine. Other things just don't provide enough of a handhold to differentiate between nominated categories. Others can and should be combined..-
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1. To those saying the things I said were similar, yeah. But as I said, the point was to brainstorm the things I think would be nice if we could recognize and then from there decide one what actually works as an award category. It wasn't "all these should be separate categories."
2. Is there any way we can get at the difference between "Best Mutation" and "Best Setup." I think in our heads we can understand how they differ, but when it comes to actually judging they're often hard to separate. I know this might be controversial, but because the Best Mutation/Mechanic is so often a large theme (only once has it been awarded to a Mini, Magua's original Marketplace Mafia), maybe just explicitly say that Best Setup should go to a Mini, Micro, Open, Newbie (if someone designs a better newbie setup, for example) or Large Normal game? This would cut down on overlap a lot.
Right now, my focus is kind of on trying to find better demarcations between awards. Trying to make it so that fewer times do we go "well. It's okay as a ______ but it also would work as a _______" The Best Mutation category is a good start. I don't mind if a game or player wins multiple awards, but I'd like to be able to look at the person or game in question and say, "yeah they did both these distinct things so well they deserved the award" rather than "this idea was so cool that it bled over into two categories where it dominated".-
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i wasn't discounting mini themes from the best setup, just large themes. Even flavored theme games are difficult to analyze from a setup perspective when they're large. There's just so much that can go on. But Mini Themes are often indistinguishable from Mini Normals except they have some flavor attached and they're run by somewhat more experienced moderators. I think it'll be a lot easier to make apples to apples comparisons if large themes are excluded.
How about two categories:
1. Best Setup and/or Mutation - Theme Category
2. Best Setup - Non-Theme Category
This way, there's no argument that something is a mechanic and isn't really the setup or whatever because that's all supposed to be considered. Frankly, as a moderator that focuses on mechanics, I think the setup is PART of the mechanic. I don't design a game with a new mechanic and think "okay. Now what power roles do i throw in here?" I craft the power roles to use the mechanic and the mechanic to use the power roles and so forth.
The downside to the proposal above is that I think it'll make flavored but not themed games less likely to win the award, but that's probably okay with me. We could probably even include a clause that says games that are normal but for flavor (i.e. the game would fit normal guidelines BUT FOR the flavor, nothing else) can be considered in the non-theme category.
Mostly I'm just trying to get rid of this idea that the mutation and the setup are distinct things when in a well designed game they're not..-
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no, it's not a problem. I'm just recognizing the realities of the situation and trying to get at different things that can be recognized while still making our life easier by giving more distinct categories.In post 485, Faraday wrote:
Is this a problem? How often has best setup also gone to large themes? (I think if that was also high it might be worth looking in to?). A large is more likely to try new mechanics, because they're hard to fit in small games.In post 480, zoraster wrote:I know this might be controversial, but because the Best Mutation/Mechanic is so often a large theme (only once has it been awarded to a Mini, Magua's original Marketplace Mafia),
My point isn't to limit mechanic to large themes. It's to remove them from consideration from best setup. But I think my second suggestion was better..-
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that wasn't the suggestion, was it? anyway, slippery slope is a logical fallacy. If it got the point where it "got silly" we stop splitting.
I'll be honest: I don't think a Mini-Normal game should win a scummy for best setup. I just don't think there's enough to differentiate one mini-normal from another to make judging meaningful. I don't want to disqualify mini-normals from a category because of that -- why bother and i'm willing to be proven wrong -- but I'm not really willing to put much emphasis on increasing their nominations or wins..-
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- Pronoun: He/Him
- Location: Belmont, CA
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zoraster He/HimDisorganized CrimeHe/Him
- Disorganized Crime
- Disorganized Crime
- Posts: 21680
- Joined: June 10, 2008
- Pronoun: He/Him
- Location: Belmont, CA
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zoraster He/HimDisorganized CrimeHe/Him
- Disorganized Crime
- Disorganized Crime
- Posts: 21680
- Joined: June 10, 2008
- Pronoun: He/Him
- Location: Belmont, CA
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zoraster He/HimDisorganized CrimeHe/Him
- Disorganized Crime
- Disorganized Crime
- Posts: 21680
- Joined: June 10, 2008
- Pronoun: He/Him
- Location: Belmont, CA
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zoraster He/HimDisorganized CrimeHe/Him
- Disorganized Crime
- Disorganized Crime
- Posts: 21680
- Joined: June 10, 2008
- Pronoun: He/Him
- Location: Belmont, CA
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zoraster He/HimDisorganized CrimeHe/Him
- Disorganized Crime
- Disorganized Crime
- Posts: 21680
- Joined: June 10, 2008
- Pronoun: He/Him
- Location: Belmont, CA
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zoraster He/HimDisorganized CrimeHe/Him
- Disorganized Crime
- Disorganized Crime
- Posts: 21680
- Joined: June 10, 2008
- Pronoun: He/Him
- Location: Belmont, CA
In post 583, Psyche wrote:there are in fact loads of ways to quantify scummies
what a helpful comment..-
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zoraster He/HimDisorganized CrimeHe/Him
- Disorganized Crime
- Disorganized Crime
- Posts: 21680
- Joined: June 10, 2008
- Pronoun: He/Him
- Location: Belmont, CA
-
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zoraster He/HimDisorganized CrimeHe/Him
- Disorganized Crime
- Disorganized Crime
- Posts: 21680
- Joined: June 10, 2008
- Pronoun: He/Him
- Location: Belmont, CA