Open 669 - Nightless Vengeful Mayhem [Game Over]

[Ultimate Despair]

@mozami: I'll more or less +1 to Hans' 561/2. It seems like you're asking a rhetorical "why don't scum quick wagon" bit, but it's not LYLO/MYLO, so why WOULD scum quick wagon here (in whatever configuration of revan/hans alignment)? Is there some obvious answer I'm missing? Because it seems kind of stupid for a theoretical scum team to just up and out themselves just for the sake of hurrying along a pre-LYLO wagon when there isn't any particularly obvious need to do so.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

Looking at Revan/mozamis

- Junko

[Superhans]

I don't remember posting more than one reaction test. Hm.

I misspoke. Either I was confusing early game gambits from a different game or I was thinking about your "LAMIST" post on page one. Which was not a gambit. Disregard.

In my view, wgeurts and MagnaofIllusion are like the town leaders. They appear to be more experienced by their play, and are the main scumhunters. It's hard to explain fully. It's similar to the "town by activity" tell, but moreso.

So for no solid alignment indicative reason. Ok.

It sure seems that you put a lot of thought into figuring out whether people would think your post was scummy.

I think about what I post. If I cared whether people thought a comment I made would seem scummy...I wouldn't make the comment to begin with. I

was

curious if anyone would.

I breadcrumbed.

That's as bad a breadcrumb as I have ever seen. No...it is the worst I've seen.

------------------------------------------------

Curious...were there any others you noticed potentially benefitting from the Hawk dayvig?

First off why is it curious? Second – why didn’t you look for yourself?

It isn't curious, I was curious. I didn't look myself because I was reading on my phone at the time and didn't feel like that hassle. You said Moz and wgeurts were the "strongest candidates" which made it seem like there were other...less strong candidates. Which was where my curiosity was.

Do you, MOI, put a lot of credence in well-known standard tells?

Where do you see that I’m putting “a lot of credence” in the tell?

And the fact that the tell is well known doesn’t make it something to be immediately dismissed. If it wasn’t something viable it would never have gotten to the well known stage in the first place.

I didn't say you

were

putting a lot of credence in standard tells...I was asking you

if

you did.

I mean...I love being townread as much as the next person but if you are going to call someone out for thinking you were town (i.e. me)...why not question everyone who does so?

I’ve eliminated the vast part of your response for readability – but to summarize yes I absolutely found your 157 as buddying. You are the only player who I have any significant history with and I know for a fact we have often had conflicting view on the game-state as Town. Enough so that your

immediate agreement with many of my posts

(that some others have not necessarily agreed with) set me radar on edge.

Others on the other hand have no track record with me and didn’t set my radar off. There is a difference between calling someone Town and agreeing in a way that feels manufactured. You fall into the second category.

The "immediate" was a single catch up that referred to two (

many?

) of your posts. I think your buddy meter has a hair trigger. It feels like you are trying to shade events that have no reason to be shaded. I'm not going to look but I would be surprised if in any of our past games I did not agt some point agree with something you may have said.

-----------------------------------------------

@HavingFitz and @MOI
What are your differences in viewpoints on the game-state as town?

How do you think town should play, MOI,
How do you think town should play, Fitz

I don't see the point in these questions. The first one requires effort I see no return on and the second is just...worthless.

it wouldnt hurt if you linked the games, although i dont really have any interest in trying to evaluate meta from a game I wasn't part of. Probably wouldn't be that difficult for u and Fitz to have a read through and see if it impacts your reads on one another.

no.

No value in explicitly stating the difference in your idea of what town play should be?
You being serious right now?

[Superhans]

Ok this is what I meant. The upshit is that Hans is scum.
Because:
If Hans is town, and Rev is town, why dont scum quick lynch?
If Hans is town, and Rev is scum, why dont scum put him at L-1?
Answer: Hans is scum.

Can you explain more simply y I am scum or take your filthy little vote off of me.

[Superhans]

Sorry if I'm coming across as a bit of a cunt, I'm coming off of a caffeine addiction so kinda overly emotional.

[Superhans]

Still want to rejustify your vote on me because I'm don't fully understand the reasoning.

[havingfitz]

No value in explicitly stating the difference in your idea of what town play should be?
You being serious right now?

Correct x 2.
I'll have a go for you though and please tell me how it helps you in this game.

My idea of what town play should be - town should be as transparent, honest and consistent as possible and try their best to find/lynch scum.

[Revan]

UD why am I scum?

Going to do some analysis to fit and catch some scummiez.

[Superhans]

No value in explicitly stating the difference in your idea of what town play should be?
You being serious right now?

Correct x 2.
I'll have a go for you though and please tell me how it helps you in this game.

My idea of what town play should be - town should be as transparent, honest and consistent as possible and try their best to find/lynch scum.

helps cos i'll be able to see if you're playing how you say you want people to play when you're scum. also im more interested to know the differences in your town play with MOI's townplay.

[havingfitz]

Mod....

Is wgeurts on secret v/la? Almost 4 days since his last post.

[karnos]

Vote Count 2.3

Superhans

(2): Revan, mozamis

Ultimate Despair

(1): lucca261

Havingfitz

(1): doomfeathers

Mozamis

(1): MagnaofIllusion

Not Voting

(6): havingfitz, Ultimate Despair, , wgeurts, Superhans, doomfeathers

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

wgeurts is being prodded.

(expired on 2017-02-04 09:00:01) until deadline.

[wgeurts]

Mod....

Is wgeurts on secret v/la? Almost 4 days since his last post.

Probably should have set up vla. Exams until Friday, had em since last Wednesday and didn't find the time I wanted to for this game during the weekend.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Revan

– Please remind me of your read on Moz.

--

Can you explain more simply y I am scum or take your filthy little vote off of me.

Why is this post written in a manner that addresses Moz as Town? If you think Moz is voting you for bad reasons why is there not a little bit of thought that Moz might be scum?

--

you being a twat?

No, pointing out the obvious – when you are supposedly scum reading someone and yet then are making points that are 100% predicated on them being Town to support your position it means there is a reasonable chance that you aren’t Town actually looking for scum but scum trying to look like they are scum-hunting.

So my vote stays and I hope others join me.

--

it wouldnt hurt if you linked the games, although i dont really have any interest in trying to evaluate meta from a game I wasn't part of. Probably wouldn't be that difficult for u and Fitz to have a read through and see if it impacts your reads on one another.

Actually I looked back over our past games and have to retract my suspicion of Having on that account. My recollection apparently was incorrect as I can’t find any evidence of us going head to head as Town in the past. In fact I found several Town Having Town MoI games where his posting regarding myself is pretty reminiscent of his posting here.

So he’s no longer a suspect for me given my memory of our past was way off.

--

It isn't curious, I was curious. I didn't look myself because I was reading on my phone at the time and didn't feel like that hassle. You said Moz and wgeurts were the "strongest candidates" which made it seem like there were other...less strong candidates. Which was where my curiosity was.

Um the other candidates were FC and Sesq who have both subsequently flipped Town. Which is why you not going back to look at Hawk’s ISO (which is criminally short) was troubling to me.

The "immediate" was a single catch up that referred to two (many?) of your posts. I think your buddy meter has a hair trigger. It feels like you are trying to shade events that have no reason to be shaded. I'm not going to look but I would be surprised if in any of our past games I did not agt some point agree with something you may have said.

I fully admit that that read was based on my faulty historical recollection so yeah I’ve fully withdrawn you suspicion of you on that end.

[doomfeathers]

It isn't curious, I was curious. I didn't look myself because I was reading on my phone at the time and didn't feel like that hassle. You said Moz and wgeurts were the "strongest candidates" which made it seem like there were other...less strong candidates. Which was where my curiosity was.

By the way, the candidates were mozamis and me, not mozamis and wgeurts.

[havingfitz]

you not going back to look at Hawk’s ISO (which is criminally short) was troubling to me.

I hadn't ISO'd him but I had considered his vote targets: Revan, Doom and Sesq. Revan was just RVS afaict and Sesq was sorted out by FC. So Doom was still on my radar. Just not sure how much weight DVA is worth.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I hadn't ISO'd him but I had considered his vote targets: Revan, Doom and Sesq. Revan was just RVS afaict and Sesq was sorted out by FC. So Doom was still on my radar. Just not sure how much weight DVA is worth.

You can have reads aside from votes cast - specifically Moz. There shouldn't be tons of weight given to it but it is worth at least looking at.

[havingfitz]

Yes...but I would assuuuuume scum using half their kill options so early on D1, or even in the game period, would be more likely due to oh shit defense mode than they would because so and so doesn't like me.

I don't think the DV was to reset the vote count (especially in flip hindsight) because if it was...scum could have presumably got rid of potentially stronger threats then a relatively newer player like Hawk.

So imo Hawk was the problem. Just not sure what getting rid of him answered.

[Superhans]

@Revan

– Please remind me of your read on Moz.

--

Can you explain more simply y I am scum or take your filthy little vote off of me.

Why is this post written in a manner that addresses Moz as Town? If you think Moz is voting you for bad reasons why is there not a little bit of thought that Moz might be scum?

--

you being a twat?

No, pointing out the obvious – when you are supposedly scum reading someone and yet then are making points that are 100% predicated on them being Town to support your position it means there is a reasonable chance that you aren’t Town actually looking for scum but scum trying to look like they are scum-hunting.

So my vote stays and I hope others join me.

--

it wouldnt hurt if you linked the games, although i dont really have any interest in trying to evaluate meta from a game I wasn't part of. Probably wouldn't be that difficult for u and Fitz to have a read through and see if it impacts your reads on one another.

Actually I looked back over our past games and have to retract my suspicion of Having on that account. My recollection apparently was incorrect as I can’t find any evidence of us going head to head as Town in the past. In fact I found several Town Having Town MoI games where his posting regarding myself is pretty reminiscent of his posting here.

So he’s no longer a suspect for me given my memory of our past was way off.

--

It isn't curious, I was curious. I didn't look myself because I was reading on my phone at the time and didn't feel like that hassle. You said Moz and wgeurts were the "strongest candidates" which made it seem like there were other...less strong candidates. Which was where my curiosity was.

Um the other candidates were FC and Sesq who have both subsequently flipped Town. Which is why you not going back to look at Hawk’s ISO (which is criminally short) was troubling to me.

The "immediate" was a single catch up that referred to two (many?) of your posts. I think your buddy meter has a hair trigger. It feels like you are trying to shade events that have no reason to be shaded. I'm not going to look but I would be surprised if in any of our past games I did not agt some point agree with something you may have said.

I fully admit that that read was based on my faulty historical recollection so yeah I’ve fully withdrawn you suspicion of you on that end.

If I gave the impression that I thought Moz was town for posting what she posted I want u to know that that is not the case.

Waiting for her to respond before I elaborate.

[Superhans]

Although that may be a while cos this game is seriously slowed down.

[havingfitz]

I'm trying to look things over today but lack of motivation combined with busy day = not.

I'll try to get to some isos tonight/tomorrow and vote accordingly.

[lucca261]

Why do you think it's scum-indicative to have a bunch of scumreads?

What part of your case in particular did you think we weren't responding to? I don't think we'd responded to 476 but had responded to earlier items. wrt 476 in partiuclar, I'm a bit surprised that you had at that point stated that associations made us scum if sesq was scum (due to us "wanting off the wagon"), but now that sesq flipped town, we're still scum for... reasons? Like you now say you felt like we knew that FC/Sesq were both flipping town, but don't support that beyond "UD has a bunch of scumreads", which is pretty much a non sequitur to the theory that somehow we knew FC/Sesq were flipping town.

I guess I'd like a clearer theory from you about what exactly your'e seeing from us that makes us scummy at this point, because I'm having trouble following your thought process.

Have to respond to this:

Depends on the situation. Having 5 scumreads alone wouldn't be suspicious. Having 5 scumreads before hammering a town player is leaving your options open for the next day.

I did a post explaining my continued scumread on you. Disregarding them for "reasons" is scummy.

I explained it on 476 and on my vote post. I thought you guys were a possible partner for Sesq. Reading the catchup/hammer posts, I started to think you were scummy regardless of the flip. Your attitudde disregarding my posts only make it stronger.

[mozamis]

Is there some obvious answer I'm missing? Because it seems kind of stupid for a theoretical scum team to just up and out themselves just for the sake of hurrying along a pre-LYLO wagon when there isn't any particularly obvious need to do so.

My main point was that the fact that his wagon is going nowhere seems like he might be scum. Scum obviously prefer not to bus if possible. If he was town, scum could just get a quick lynch. Then with an early DK tomorrow they would be in a really strong position ( I havent done the maths) and they could hope to WIFOM the mislycnh. Plus they would be so dominant all it would take is one mis vote from town?

OF COURSE I COULD BE WRONG. But with the (more important point) that Hans looks pretty scummy, it seemed relevant.

[mozamis]

Ot

Sorry if I'm coming across as a bit of a cunt, I'm coming off of a caffeine addiction so kinda overly emotional.

Oh i feel for you! I gave up caffeine for 3 years, it was weird shit near the beginning!
Got to say going back on it was gthe biggest buzz ever lol

And thanks for the ATe

Other peoples thoughts on Hans?
And Magna i Guess. It's hard not to OMGUS. I'm hoping he is misguided, "super lawyer" town. Think he probably still is.
If he is scum, we are in trouble.

[lucca261]

Page 22

:

528: @mozamis, can you explain your vote-unvote of Fitz? Here you say that Fitz ISO is quite strong, but regardless of it you were voting for him. And your read of UD from possible scum for null-town is based only on the "not-blending in" post? I don't like this reads. This is going for the weak players.

534: From this post, starting to think that Revan/Superhans theory is possible. On D1 I townread Revan, but his attitude can be faked. And I don't like Superhans saying: "Hey, don't vote me, vote Revan". I still think it's unlikely, but Revan/Hans is possible.

537: Not sure I buy this. Did you really think that scum would vote Magna right away? What is your read on magna, @doom?

544: Yeah, Magna is town. This is a well-thought post who shows good effort and a willingness on changing reads, which I'm not sure would do. I can safely say I'm not voting Magna this game.

548: Do you have some thoughts to share with us about Hawk, @Fitz? also, can you do a readslist? who do you want lynched today? is it Mozamis? Hans? Revan? I don't think I know where your head is, and that is concerning for me.

Page 23

:

550: so you are saying you townread Doom for stuff that happened before post 100? do your reads do not evolve, like, at all?

556: why would scum risk a quick lynch? if both Revan/Hans are town, scum is on a pretty good position to win. Why risk all that for a quick lynch on a player who is probably getting lynched anyway? if anything, you are trying a quick lynch. hmm.

557: can you explain the breadcrumb? I don't get it. I don't get why you had the need to breadcrumb also. The only reason for you to breadcrumb this is if you are concerned about how people view you.

568: what?

573: this post is good. Fitz is probably town. he is analysing stuff and trying progress his reads. I just need the readlist first.

[lucca261]

Ot

Sorry if I'm coming across as a bit of a cunt, I'm coming off of a caffeine addiction so kinda overly emotional.

Oh i feel for you! I gave up caffeine for 3 years, it was weird shit near the beginning!
Got to say going back on it was gthe biggest buzz ever lol

And thanks for the ATe

Other peoples thoughts on Hans?
And Magna i Guess. It's hard not to OMGUS. I'm hoping he is misguided, "super lawyer" town. Think he probably still is.
If he is scum, we are in trouble.

Magna is not scum. He wouldn't play like he's playing if he is scum. If he is, props to him, cause there is no way he's getting lynched.

I still think that Hans is scum. But his posting on D2 has been stronger. This, together with the Sesq and Friend flips that made me question my scumreads, makes me want to go with my gut today. And my gut says UD.

And you pushing him desperately like you are doing makes me think he's town.