Star Wars Rogue One [GAME OVER]

[Klingoncelt]

Spoiler:

The stalling signifies to me that scum were happy with the game state and weren't being wagoned until klingon got traction. Or: none of the wagons were scum and we were just able to lynch thinker at the end due to compromise. But the wagons on pine, AJ, and cakez stood long enough with little enough opposition that I'm comfortable calling them town.

Day 1 VCA is worthless. Please don't waste the bandwidth.

[Desperado]

i don't even

[Klingoncelt]

Yes you do.

[Firebringer]

Vote Count 2.03

Klingoncelt [5] Infinity 324, Desperado, AJ the Epic, SirCakez, BBmolla
Pine-A-Tonics [2] Mastina, Drunken Piper
Desperado [1] Klingoncelt
Lil Uzi Vert [1] Heartless
Infinity 324 [1] Titus
Titus [1] Nero Cain

Not Voting - [4] Aeronaut, TheWayItEnds, Pine-A-Tonics, Lil Uzi Vert,

With 15 Alive, It Takes 8 To Lynch.

Rogue Leader Vote:

Desperado (2): Infinity 324, Heartless,
Heartless (1): Drunken Piper

Mod Notes - May the flavor be with you.
Lil Uzi Vert has requested replacement. Searching now.

Day 2 ends in (expired on 2017-02-08 12:26:20)!

[Firebringer]

Aeronaut has been prodded.

[Klingoncelt]

i don't even

Desperado's a pretty common username I think, but I just saw a post by a Desperado at USMB in the Flame Zone. Is that you?

[Desperado]

no

[Infinity 324]

The stalling signifies to me that scum were happy with the game state and weren't being wagoned until klingon got traction. Or: none of the wagons were scum and we were just able to lynch thinker at the end due to compromise. But the wagons on pine, AJ, and cakez stood long enough with little enough opposition that I'm comfortable calling them town.

Alternatively: the wagon on SirCakez was on scum, and morphed into the wagon on Pine, also on scum. Scum used deadline and players' suspicions on TheThinker to rush through a quicklynch on town, rather than on scum.

I still maintain that the majority of that wagon is town, but the Pine and SirCakez votes are egregious.

You're going to have to justify this a lot better because the narrative that a wagon on scum just sat there unopposed for a while, then turned into another wagon on scum which also sat there unopposed, is questionable at best.

[Infinity 324]

All of your posts are whining about being wagoned/scumread and not actually scumhunting.

Pot, kettle, black.

Maybe you could

maybe

say this early in d1 but no.

[Infinity 324]

Now that we have established Nacho was not a universal townread within the crew (something I didn't know), that would only be evidence to strengthen my posit: Nacho not being universally townread within the crew is a GREAT way for the scum to get away with killing him. Less likely to be protected, and less likely to be, saaaaay, watched. So, killing a strong player who the town wasn't trusting yet before said player could be fully trusted--that sounds an awful lot like Pine's modus operandi as scum. (Admittedly yes it'd be mine as well, but he and I picked up the trick at loosely the same time. Him, probably a bit before me if I'm fully honest, given games like Mirror Mafia among others.)

I'm glad we've established that nacho was a good kill choice and that one of you and pine is scum.

[Infinity 324]

Ok let's go though this.

unless this fucker's got an alt we've never played together before, which makes his no-case focus on me creepy and stalker-ish.

You keep saying this, but I don't see how you being creeped out means he's scum as opposed to just you being creeped out.

He finally tells me to vote for Thinker. I do. Thinker could be Scum, they were one of my compromise lynches. They flip Town and Desperado calls me Scum for hammering them. He says they weren't given time to claim.

What's your issue with this explanation?

No Kling, I was encouraging you to follow through with your own words and compromise on a Thinker lynch by giving intent to hammer so they could claim.

Not that you're much better. You ridiculed me for voting for you when you were getting the votes for Rogue Leader, then you went after another player (I forget who) that was voting for Heartless when they were leading the Rogue Leader votes.

It's not unusual in the early game for Scum to get picked for special roles.

Your argument against me and that other player based on popularity was completely without merit.

1. There was about 3 days left until deadline. My issue was with people picking unrealistic lynch targets, and rogue leader candidates would definitely be unrealistic.

2. If you think it was without merit, why does that make it scummy? I think your arguments here are kind of without merit...

[Aj The Epic]

Spoiler:

The stalling signifies to me that scum were happy with the game state and weren't being wagoned until klingon got traction. Or: none of the wagons were scum and we were just able to lynch thinker at the end due to compromise. But the wagons on pine, AJ, and cakez stood long enough with little enough opposition that I'm comfortable calling them town.

Day 1 VCA is worthless. Please don't waste the bandwidth.

Ain't no reason to discourage someone from spending their time hunting.

Are we meant to believe you actually didn't look at the VC before hammering/didn't know the time remaining? Because I find this incredibly hard to believe in a hammer situation. And if you honestly DID believe time was running short, I'd expect you to blame Infinity, not Desperado, who was far more concerned about wagoning.

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: mastin

[mastina]

I also don't understand why scum-Pine even uses what is apparently such an obvious scum power.

...Because it's a scum power and Pine knows the power of the wifom game? So he might as well...you know. Use it.

[Infinity 324]

Idk if this is something klingon can fake, but her stubborn insistence looks somewhat town to me. Now there's still the issue of her first few posts and why thinker got lynched over her yesterday, but I'll come back to her later.

[mastina]

My hypothesis is that Mastina is so daftly afraid of Nacho being able to call her shit out that he held priority over everyone else.

Counterpoint: Nacho

wasn't

calling my 'shit' out.

While he would, in fact, be a high-priority kill, no question, no doubt, about that, there would be other players who would give me a more beneficial return. Nacho is not on the flowchart for good reason. He's not someone I hold in absolute fear. Now! I haven't actually beaten him in a fair fight. Brawl-to-brawl, he has won every time we've actually engaged. Him as scum and me as town; him as town and me as scum. (There's never a time where we're both town and go at each other though.) But he's not someone I feel the need to eliminate above all else. (I mean, if I were scum, who the fuck do I kill? You've got Heartless, you've got Nacho, you've got BBMolla, you've got Desperado, you've got TheWayItEnds, you've got Pine-A-Tonics, and probably more. Some could be scumbuddies, sure. But not all of them. Meaning that as scum, I'd have a choice of high-profile players to pick. Nacho isn't important enough where he'd be #1 100% of the time. The only two players with that honor are zMuffinman and AngryPidgeon. Them absent, as scum, my kill this game would...probably have been Heartless. Sure, Nacho would likely be a high pick, maybe even second, but I think I'd kill Heartless before killing Nacho.)

PINE, on the other hand......

[Infinity 324]

See how many fucks I give about your WIFOM

[Pine-A-Tonics]

Nacho is dead. You two talked about Heartless once. Then he died.

You didn't give him the CHANCE to engage. Now that we have the flip with Nacho was town, that means if you were scum, you knew he was town, killed him before he was able to engage because you know it'd be a battle you would lose.

he has won every time we've actually engaged

[mastina]

the "other thing" i was thinking of was "kill someone low profile to evade a protective"
last i knew mastin is a "screw the protectives, kill who you want" type of scumbag, i kind of didn't expect this answer from her :\ i sort of expected a spiel about who she would kill if she were scum.

Yes, which is why I would've killed you if I were scum, not Nacho.

The scum's modus operandi is

close

to my own.
CLOSE.
The Nacho kill is CLOSE to something I would make, if I was going for the "fuck PRs, I'll kill who I want".

But it's not exactly that. You would be. As the Rogue Leader, you'd be the player that would be protected by PRs, and yet I'd want you dead as scum more than any other player here. If for no other reason, than to force the town to select another rogue leader, one who could potentially actually be scum. So if I was scum, I would be killing you.

But I'm not scum. This is CLOSE to how I work. The Nacho kill is within what I would normally do. But for

this specific game

, given THESE SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES, fuck no. I kill you first, and kill Nacho when I fear he's about to scumread me. And let me tell you: if Nacho actually was scumreading me, he would have told you in the neighborhood. He might not have said it in the game thread, where *I* could read it. But behind closed doors in an all-town crew (until Pine joined at least), if he was scumreading me, you can bet your ass he'd let it be known. Even so much as a semblance of a reason would be enough.

And yet, by Gin's own word, Nacho only had one post in there, and hadn't answered the question on whether he trusted me--a lack of an answer is not a negative answer; it's just a lack of an answer. So he didn't have a scumread on me, and therefore I had no incentive at all to kill him N1. MAYBE he'd be my N2 nightkill. He DEFINITELY would have to go by N3. But N1? While in another game with lesser players, sure! If this was basically a newbie, Nacho would go N1. Yet in this game, full of power players?

Fuck no.

The Nacho kill came from Pine. Not from me. Guarantee it.

[mastina]

You're going to have to justify this a lot better because the narrative that a wagon on scum just sat there unopposed for a while, then turned into another wagon on scum which also sat there unopposed, is questionable at best.

No, it's not?

The thing about wagons on scum is that they're gradual things which grow organically, and fall suddenly.
The SirCakez wagon grew gradually, but fell suddenly.
The Pine wagon grew slowly, but fell suddenly.

The TheThinker wagon grew quickly, and didn't fall--thus, why it was a mislynch.

That's how wagons work.

It doesn't matter if there wasn't opposition. It wouldn't matter if there was. You can wagon two scum on a day. You can wagon two town on a day. You have to look not at whether there's counterwagons, but at the TYPE of wagon those wagons were. And in this case, it was two scum wagons and a town wagon. The town wagon was a counterwagon to both of the scum wagons.

[mastina]

I'm glad we've established that nacho was a good kill choice and that one of you and pine is scum.

So fucking vote for Pine-A-Tonics rather than waste your vote on...whoever the fuck you're wasting it on.

[mastina]

VOTE: mastin

No.
Just no.

[Infinity 324]

It doesn't matter if there wasn't opposition. It wouldn't matter if there was. You can wagon two scum on a day. You can wagon two town on a day. You have to look not at whether there's counterwagons, but at the TYPE of wagon those wagons were. And in this case, it was two scum wagons and a town wagon. The town wagon was a counterwagon to both of the scum wagons.

I don't claim to know more mafia theory than you do, but I'd be surprised if there was any relatively active scumteam who would let 2 of their scumpartners get wagoned and stay that way without getting jittery.

[Infinity 324]

Are we still "almost in RVS", mastin? Cause your play hasn't changed much from yesterday

[mastina]

You didn't give him the CHANCE to engage.

Let me make this perfectly clear:
If Nacho was ever going to get a scumread on me.
He would have already have had a scumread on me.

That's just the dynamic there.

He's not going to need to draw attention to me. He's not going to need to have a drawn-out interaction with me. He doesn't need to engage me for hours upon hours. He needs one or two posts. That's it. If he's going to call me scum, he will call me scum, off of that amount alone. His accuracy isn't as high as zMuffinman or AngryPidgeon. However, his speed isn't lower than theirs in obtaining a read. In fact, I'm his number one priority. His first concern. He scumreads me, he needs to make sure I get lynched pronto. He knows the consequences if he doesn't.

Nacho had plenty of time to engage me. He chose not to. You know why he chose not to? Because he didn't need to. He knew I was town.
And when I say 'engage'. I don't mean necessarily talking to me. He could be asking others about me. He could ask stuff to me, sure. But mostly, he would be talking about me. And in a fight, on why I was scum. He did not. Because he wasn't scumreading me. And as a result, he wasn't a threat to me.

So as a result, he wasn't someone I would have killed. That'd have been Heartless. Who WAS scumreading me. Maybe not anymore, they've been a bit ambiguous there, think there may be some hydra dissonance going on of some sort, but at the very least they WERE scumreading me. If I were scum, that scumread could easily come back at any point. So if I were scum, I'd just say, "they scumread my slot once, who's to say they won't again?" and just kill them.

The Nacho kill, on the other hand...I'd say both heads of your hydra have reason for it. Aeronaut might as well, and Molla certainly does. Fuck, wouldn't surprise me if SirCakez has experience with Nacho warranting his NK. The simple fact is, I had no reason to kill Nacho; you had

every

reason to kill Nacho.

Similar styles. VERY similar. But not quite identical. This is your scum show, not mine. Your modus operandi, not mine. Because this is your scumteam. Not mine.