Open 669 - Nightless Vengeful Mayhem [Game Over]

[doomfeathers]

When Hawk was killed, Revan was the only one voting him. Does this make him more or less likely scum and/or shooter?

I've been looking through vote counts, and found something rather interesting. Starting about two weeks ago, Revan and Superhans were each voting the other for a while.

VOTE: Revan
Maybe a lil cheeky of me being a lurker until now accusing your of not really contributing enough, but...

i'll unvote when you explain your read lists:

Town: Lucca
Townlean: Magna, wgeurts
Null: Everybody else
Nullscum: Doom

He apparently never did find someone better to wagon, and apparently the readslist was never satisfactorily explained, since he never moved his vote.

Friend Computer, could you explain your motivation for voting karnos?

What type of question is this?

FC's ISO is bare. I don't think voting him will change this.

This is the best place for my vote to be.

VOTE: Superhans

He didn't really explain his vote, though he had put Superhans in a group of possible scum earlier. It could be just Revan being Revan.

Spoiler: There were few other voters on either wagon.

Vote Count 1.6

Sesq

(3/7)

- mozamis, doomfeathers,

magnaofillusion

, ultimate despair

Friend Computer

(3/7)

-

sesq

, wgeurts, magnaofillusion, havingfitz

Revan

(2/7)

- superhans, sesq

Superhans

(1/7)

- revan

Nobody needs a prod.

(expired on 2017-01-27 08:45:01) until deadline.
With 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to lynch.

Vote Count 1.8

**Friend Computer**

(6/6)

- wgeurts, magnaofillusion, havingfitz, doomfeathers, sesq, ultimate despair

Superhans

(2/6)

- revan, lucca261

Sesq

(1/6)

- mozamis

Revan

(1/6)

- superhans

A lynch has occurred!

Please stand by.

I guess I was the only one getting the too scummy to be scum vibe...

VOTE: Superhans

Revan immediately revoted Hans without comment after the lynch. There apparently was no change in his reads because of the lynch. He has remained on Hans's wagon since then. The vote counts show only mozamis also on him.

Superhans never revoted for some reason, though he has continued to scumread Revan.

Throughout his ISO, Revan pressures Hans very little (though again, that could just be playstyle). Superhans calls Revan scum a few times, but also without much pressure. There was also a weird part in there where they both seemed to be trying to get the other to answer questions without answering the other's questions.

Could they be scum wasting time and distancing by voting each other and sometimes having a few small slap-fights while never actually pushing each other? This would also give them reason not to commit votes elsewhere unless they wanted to, leaving them harder to analyze.

On a different note, I found this:

I agree with Wguerts point that his voting is kinda jumpy, but I play like that myself, so I don't think it is necessarily to over-read.

Hans has voted twice this entire game. He specifically states that that's not his normal playstyle. Could it be that he's playing differently because he has a different win condition from the usual?

[doomfeathers]

What makes them garbage?

Okay i know my last post was a bit pedantic, but please please please stop being so bait.

This seems rather odd to say either to a scumread as town or to a scumpartner as scum. What do you guys make of this?

If my theory is correct, it would be interesting to see what one does when the other is wagoned. I've been suspicious anyway.

VOTE: Superhans

By the way, Hans, did you change your avatar to match Sesq's just to irritate those of us who reread the thread?

[doomfeathers]

By the way, Hans, did you change your avatar to match Sesq's just to irritate those of us who reread the thread?

Never mind; Sesq said otherwise.

[mozamis]

VOTE: Superhans

love to join you on this, but dont you think he's looked stronger recently?

[doomfeathers]

I haven't checked, but it doesn't matter. Scumtells early are as important as scumtells late.

I'll look it over later, though.

[doomfeathers]

VOTE: Superhans

love to join you on this, but dont you think he's looked stronger recently?

Wait, this confuses me. Do you think Hans is scummy or no? You seem to be saying that you don't scumread him, but you wish you did. There are several ways this could have scum motivation, though it doesn't have to.

FOS mozamis

[mozamis]

i did think he was scum.
Hence my vote on him for most of this day.
But I unvoted him because he was pretty robust, and went on the offensive, going after me in quite a strong way. And not just that, he seems to be asking everyone a lot more questions, trying to find scum.
He's prob town, i reckon.

[mozamis]

oh, on the "love to join you on this", he was being a colossal pain in the ARSE.

[doomfeathers]

Makes sense. I retract the FOS.

[Revan]

I have a little time on my hands this weekend.

SH is looking better, UD is looking worse. Moz is town in my gut.

[mozamis]

Moz is town in my gut.

welcome to Moz city, baby!

[lucca261]

catching up. let's go.

[lucca261]

@UD, 661: That's not what I was saying at all. Each post you do trying to discredit me makes me think you're more scum. That reminds me that I forget to answer you. Preparing the post.

@Magna, 663: but I'm voting UD, like, since the start of the day? I want him lynched today. Look at his posts. Also, can you explain to me your superhans townread?

@Superhans, 672: I think that if you were scum together with Mozamis, you two wouldn't go so hard after each other. Is bussing is this time possible? yes. but the interactions between seemed to be TvS.

@Superhans, 673: "Also I don't like her push on me but don't want to make my read OMGUS so won't elaborate." that's your quote. why wouldn't you want to make your read OMGUS? elaborate.

@doom, 674: yeah, doom is town. his posts have a natural progression between them and his reads seems to evolve naturally.

Page 28

@doom, 675: another really good post by doom. made me rethink Superhans/Revan. I'm warming up to it.

can we get a UD lynch, @moi/@doom?

[lucca261]

...
Depends on the situation. Having 5 scumreads alone wouldn't be suspicious. Having 5 scumreads before hammering a town player is leaving your options open for the next day.

I did a post explaining my continued scumread on you. Disregarding them for "reasons" is scummy.

I explained it on 476 and on my vote post. I thought you guys were a possible partner for Sesq. Reading the catchup/hammer posts, I started to think you were scummy regardless of the flip. Your attitudde disregarding my posts only make it stronger.

Your stated reasons were:
- we'd disregarded your case (which wasn't really true)
- we had a bunch of scum reads (which wasn't really indicative)

So if that was the extent of your case, it was objectively poor, and if there was more to it you hadn't been particularly clear about why. So yes, being dismissive of your case seemed pretty reasonably appropriate

You'd also raised the point about us ignoring mozami's responses in 476, which seems odd given how much we've talked to/about mozami. What in particular did you think we'd missed or dismissed?

Like, overall I look at your push on us and it seems more like a read in search of reasons (especially given the strange continuation of the read when originally it was to some degree dependent on Sesq being scum) than a read that has meaningful substance behind it, and I'd like to see you put in the time to actually substantiate and demonstrate what you claim to be seeing if this is something you really feel strongly about.

-M

Yes. it's true. you disregarded my case several times. you even say this yourself:

So yes, being dismissive of your case seemed pretty reasonably appropriate.

So here we have you lying to defend yourself.

I never said I scumread you for having a bunch of scumreads. I say I scumread you for having a lot of scumreads before hammering while keeping options open for the next day. Like you knew Friend would flip town.

On your sentence here we have you again misrepping my words to defend yourself.

---

On the part about Mozamis, I'm talking about what happened on page 10. You ask Mozamis a bunch of questions WHILE VOTING HIM, and then, when Mozamis don't answer/slides out of the question, you just move on. I found this extremely inconsistent with your other posts.

If you think my push on you is a read on search of reasons, shouldn't you be voting me?

I've been clear that while the scumread was originally dependent on Sesq being scum, it wasn't all of it. I had other concerns with your play. I explained it in several posts.

I had four scumreads on D1. Sesq, you, Superhans and Friend. When two of them die and are proven town, you have to rethink your reads. Looking at your play again, it was scummy if Sesq was town or not.

And your attitude towards my read on you is strange too. It's inconsistent with your earlier posts. It's generally aggressive, and by your posts, you seem to scumread me. But you didn't vote. And it's not like you are voting anybody.

[Ultimate Despair]

@lucca:

1)
disregard: pay no attention to; ignore
(we didn't do this, and I think that's fairly obvious)

dismiss: treat as unworthy of serious consideration.
(I admittedly did this)

Saying that I didn't disregard your case (which I didn't), while also saying that I dismissed your case (which I did) is not a contradiction, much less an actual lie.

2) The substance was that we had a bunch of scumreads. The narrative was that somehow having a bunch of scumreads equated to keeping our options open. The actual fact being discussed was the number of scumreads we had, i.e. that was the actual basis of your suspicion (if there was more to the "you're keeping your options open" bit then you've done a terrible job communicating it). You constructed a scum narrative for our behavior while seemingly choosing to not critically engage with the possibility that having a bunch of scum reads was an honest town process.
The factual basis of your point there, though, was in fact the number of scum reads. Which simply isn't indicative. Slapping scum narrative onto a non-indicative incident does not magically turn it into scummy behavior, regardless of whether or not you think it does. So my saying that you have scum read us in substantial part due to behavior that is not indicative is a completely valid point.

3) If I think your push on us is a push in search of reasons, the question is whether you actually believe it or not. It is entirely possible that you are simply being bad. I don't especially feel like voting someone just for being bad without having a meaningful basis for believing that it's scummy instead of just poor reasoning.

4) The explanation for why I "moved on" from the page 10 stuff should be fairly obvious. Look at 243 and subsequent posts. We moved on to a different topic of conversation, reacting to an action that we knew came from scum.
What exactly were you expecting here? I had good reason to be focused more on FC/Sesq, discussed my reasoning, and I don't recall you or anyone else being upset by the focus on those two back when they were still alive.
I'm also curious why you feel like our treatment of Mozami was different than, say, our treatment of Revan, who I spent some time questioning on page 11 and also "moved on" from. Like, who here that we've interacted with substantially have we treated in a way that is substantially different from how we've treated mozami in a way that stands out? Preferably with quotes/links to demonstrate what you're claiming to see.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

...

@UD

– you need to answer this right away …

1. Why did you call Moz a scum lean Day 1?
2. Why is the same head “looking at Moz” as if it didn’t already have a read from Day 1?

And I do not want to see any explanation that “That was my other head”. You are one slot. You get treated as one slot and attempting to foist off hydra dissonance to avoid pointed questions isn’t going to fly.

--

Junko didn't address this, so I guess I will.

I don't even get where you're coming from on point 1. We had a bunch of posts addressing and discussing Moz on day 1; are you asking us to restate our reasoning? Did you miss it? Like, what exactly are you getting at here, because it would be fairly difficult to miss our thoughts on Moz from day 1, and we have under 100 posts, so it would be hard to miss given the ISO feature. If you have questions about our read from day 1 ask them, but it's not my job to rehash previous events for your convenience.

For point #2 I'm guessing you meant

Looking at Revan/mozamis
- Junko

That's a pretty clear "here's my current suspects" post. I fail to see the contradiction at all, so again if you have a question please ask it more clearly.

[Ultimate Despair]

@UD if Moz flips:
Scum, who is the partner?
Town, who is the partner?

Why do you care about this? I'll admit that I occasionally do pre-flip associations when I'm in the mood, but w'ere in a game without a night kill, which means that there's probably LESS utility from this than usual. Like, say moz is lynched and flips scum and then we get day-vigged before we can talk about associations. While there would be less of a legacy on our end, there would also be the benefit that scum is out of kill shots, which strikes me as a perfectly fine outcome.

TLDR: I'm not especially in the mood to discuss pre-flip associations, although I suppose that's potentially subject to change if I get in the mood.
-M

[Ultimate Despair]

I have a little time on my hands this weekend.

SH is looking better, UD is looking worse. Moz is town in my gut.

How in YOUR opinion is SH looking better and UD looking worse? I get that seems to have been board consensus around that time, but why do YOU think that was the case?

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

Anyway, I'll try and do an actual re-read tomorrow, since I should have the time then. If there are questions I've missed, I'll try and address them then.
-M

[wgeurts]

Alright, exams are over. I'm really really sorry for the apathy coming from this slot, I've been really busy and mafia just wasnt a priority.

That's going to change over the course of today though.

[Superhans]

What makes them garbage?

Okay i know my last post was a bit pedantic, but please please please stop being so bait.

This seems rather odd to say either to a scumread as town or to a scumpartner as scum. What do you guys make of this?

If my theory is correct, it would be interesting to see what one does when the other is wagoned. I've been suspicious anyway.

VOTE: Superhans

By the way, Hans, did you change your avatar to match Sesq's just to irritate those of us who reread the thread?

I didn't take it from Sesq, I snatched it from Alisae.

Also I'm deliberately trying to vote differently because my jumpy voting usually gets me nothing but scum reads.

My avatars copied off of Alisae, not Sesq.

[Superhans]

OMGUS usually comes across as a kneejerk reaction.

[Superhans]

@UD if Moz flips:
Scum, who is the partner?
Town, who is the partner?

Why do you care about this? I'll admit that I occasionally do pre-flip associations when I'm in the mood, but w'ere in a game without a night kill, which means that there's probably LESS utility from this than usual. Like, say moz is lynched and flips scum and then we get day-vigged before we can talk about associations. While there would be less of a legacy on our end, there would also be the benefit that scum is out of kill shots, which strikes me as a perfectly fine outcome.

TLDR: I'm not especially in the mood to discuss pre-flip associations, although I suppose that's potentially subject to change if I get in the mood.
-M

I wanna know. Don't buy your point that it being nightless invidates this question, I think that pre flips can generate pretty insightful content.

[Superhans]

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but " not being in the mood" sounds like you're just being really lazy and don't respect me enough to answer the question.

[karnos]

Vote Count 2.5

Superhans

(3): Revan, mozamis, doomfeathers

Mozamis

(2): Superhans, MagnaofIllusion

Ultimate Despair

(1): lucca261,

MagnaofIllusion

Havingfitz

(0):

doomfeathers

Not Voting

(3): havingfitz, Ultimate Despair, wgeurts

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

(expired on 2017-02-04 09:00:01) until deadline.