Star Wars Rogue One [GAME OVER]

[ɀefiend]

If you really think that's scummy I can't help you anymore.

SirCakez posted his spoiler before this heavily redacted post.

You cannot help SirCakez see scum because he is scum.

Didn't even notice that post.

It is worrisome that he brushed off my very forward question about Pine to him.

He also said I'm scummy which is apparently very easy to do right now; also a red flag.

I am here Titus. I am listening.

[Aj The Epic]

Two things I hate in mafia: Day 1 and inconsistent reads. And Zefiend, we're in D3.

[Infinity 324]

Your "elaboration" was inventing a reason from my exchange with Nero -- which happened AFTER you originally called me out. You didn't have shit to begin with and you just reached for the first thing you could think of.

I never elaborated on the original reasons, you never even asked me to. I gave reasons and said I'd elaborate on them if you asked me, and then you just said they're vague so I must be scum. I mean seriously.

[Infinity 324]

You are focusing on my dialogue with Nero and Peregrine for the wrong reasons. They were particularly influential to me because they ENGAGED me on the exact points I was thinking mastina couldn't have bussed. Why would I NOT consider their opinion when they are saying the exact opposite?

Where did pere engage you? Of course you'd consider their opinion but you gave no specifics of your own about what worried you about mastin or what good points they made to make you think you might be wrong.

[Infinity 324]

misrepresentation. I like how you add in "possibly to set up to vote them" - this is blatant construction of a narrative that you have no idea about. Nero and Peregrine's disagreements simply caused me to reflect and reevaluate.

You might understand, though, when the town narrative makes little sense to me then I might start thinking about a scum narrative to explain it. Whatever you say at least one person will probably disagree with, so it doesn't make sense to reconsider your original statement just because others disagree.

Also, pere didn't even engage you as far as I can tell, and people who agreed with you wouldn't need to engage with you since they agree. This whole thing makes very little sense to me from town.

[mastina]

Is this really a thing? I haven't looked at a ton of scum fakeclaims in themes/been scum in themes but how can you be so confident fire wouldn't just...save certain town roles for scum fakeclaims and not give them to town?

Again.
One, experience.
Two, because I know what's shitty.

And giving scum a fakeclaim of something they can be proven to not have?
That's shitty.

[mastina]

There's no reason to believe scum!molla was forced to claim his real role.

Aside from how that's not true, it's sidestepping the issue:
There's no reason a scuMolla wouldn't claim his role.

The role is a scum role--it could exist in the game for town, sure, but this is really like seeing a setup with a town cop, a town doctor, and then seeing a claim of town roleblocker (or maybe jailkeeper). Yeah, the roleblocker COULD be a town roleblocker, but it's probably just a fucking scum roleblocker.

The gambit of being vanillaized is a gambit.
Nothing more, nothing less.

[mastina]

Mastin, are you sure we can't just lynch this guy instead? That post was a bunch of empty analysis and busy questions

Remember how SirCakez was my fallback option D1 if I couldn't get Pine?

zefiend is the same way, just for BBMolla.

If I can't lynch BBMolla, I'll go for zefiend. Aeronaut was scum, and zefiend has done nothing to make me think otherwise.

But if I don't pursue Molla now, he'll get away.

[mastina]

The question directed at cakez also feels quite fake
VOTE: zefiend

(That's because they're scumbuddies.)

[mastina]

claiming your role as scum works maybe 10% of the time

Unless it's a moderator-given safeclaim (which happens to be a town version of your role), in which case it works a good 80-90% of the time because that's what the purpose of a fucking safeclaim is: to actually be safe.

Which.
You know.

Is just what I've been saying.

I fully believe you have a PM from Firebringer outlining a role which would be "K2-SO, Town JOAT".
I just believe said PM would be detailing it as your mod-given fakeclaim.

[mastina]

I have been very busy in the afternoons recently so I haven't been able to reread yet. Titus looks like scum on hiding so ya not changing my vote.
zefiend - given that Pine is our only flipped scum, thought it would be worthwhile for you to pay extra attention there. There wasn't really a special motive for it.

I mean, I don't really think I need to say why I would lynch ^this as well, but.
I would lynch that as well.

I still think BBMolla is the best lynch though.

[mastina]

My biggest issue with your claim is the point in time you came up with your Pine scumread (post 512).

To understand what happened, you need to know the events which transpired: I started reading from about page 18 (that was the spot I noticed that there was a slot up for replacement), until I was caught up to the latest post. (The spot I actually began posting.)

This got me some initial reads, like Drunken Piper and Heartless as town and I believe Pine/SirCakez both as scum. I lacked a lot of game context though.

Then, I went back to the beginning of the game, both for the value of the RVS and to fix that issue.
And started reading chronologically.

And there, you can track which page I was on with my thoughts by the quotes before, after, and during statements. For instance, Molla became a scumread on some page--I didn't quote it, but he did a series of postings around one page in particular which made me think, "This looks like Molla as scum". You conveniently put quotes here, and from memory I believe it came in that 236 - 254 range.

Meanwhile, Pine tries to open dialogue with you in 517, never before talking to you or mentioning your name.

No fucking shit?
I wasn't in the game, PeregrineV.
I'm a replacement.

It's a little fucking hard to talk about a player who's not in the game yet, now, isn't it?

Pine started talking to me the moment I actually entered the game. My SLOT is mentioned in their iso, though. Admittedly, only once, in 280, but it's there.

Meanwhile, neither head of the hydra tries really hard to break you from your read, nor do they try to engage you that I can see.

What the fuck are you reading?
Pine was constantly. CONSTANTLY. Saying, "Oh, lol, mastina's wrong again". Gin engaged me multiple times and said, "mastina is wrong". You want to get into this quote war, you WILL FUCKING LOSE because yes while I may not have been QUOTING many of Pine's posts, I sure as fuck wasn't blind to them and was reading each and every one of them remembering them QUITE well so I know

damn

good and well you're spewing bullshit here.

If your sure Pine is scum based on his 5 posts, yet the Gin side does nothign to affect your read?

Why would it?

Gin's posts were null-at-best to me. Some of what Gin said was scummy, some of it was null, none of it was really town.

Whereas Pine. You know. The head I have the game history with. Was scumposting at every step of the way and I KNEW it was his scumposting. I had the game experience to call it what it was.

[mastina]

No scum would fake being vanillaized before DP revealed his guilty.

This is akin to saying no scum would fakeclaim miller after a cop claimed an investigation.

Scum gambit.
Often in advance.
These gambits have a defined benefit.
Something that is, ideally, high reward and low risk.

BBMolla's claim to be vanillaized is low-risk. He loses virtually nothing from claiming it.
BBMolla's claim to be vanillaized is GAME WINNING LEVELS of high-reward. He gains conftown status from it.

What does Molla loses from claiming? Nothing.
What does Molla gain from claiming? Everything.

Right there is your motive. Right there is your explanation. And as Molla himself points out, it's something he would do, ESPECIALLY when coordinating with Pine. Pine, one of the best wifom scum players in existence. Pine, who there's a whole fucking game being run about that boils down to Pine wifom. (I think I can reference it existing as it was advertised?) I can catch Pine off of his play. And I can recognize Pine's night action pattern. This is his. The idea just FITS. It fits so ridiculously well.

Molla is scum.

It's that simple.

[mastina]

SirCake into the scumpile also.

Yes, he is, and I'd be happy to bus him if you'd vote with me there! Push come to shove, if nothing else.

[mastina]

Like Pine had a role that publicly outs his action.

Yes. Which...he would only need to use if there were no scum on the rogue crew.
If there was a scum on the rogue crew, suddenly, Pine doesn't need to use his power at all.
And then, all of a sudden, Pine never gets the suspicion on them.

That. simple.

Heartless

DID

state who she wanted in the crew.

Heartless wasn't the only candidate for Rogue Leader. Infinity and I believe Desperado were also D1 candidates. Notably, I was voting for Infinity as Rogue Leader--NOT Heartless.

infinity if you were rogue leader would you put pine on the rogue team?

Probably not.

I'd probably do me mastin desp or me desp and a scummish/null player

.

^This, and this alone, would be incentive enough to NOT assume Pine would use the ability.

Infinity, at the time of 780, was the vote leader for rogue leader. I was voting him. And he was interested in placing me in the rogue crew.
By that point, I had already made it clear I had a hard-on for a Pine lynch.

So again.
Fuck you.

My point about chronology stands.

As long winded as she is she could have done so and I don't think she ever did wich I think is sketchy as fuck.

Fuck your inaccurate definition of my style.

YOU OF ALL PEOPLE.

Know that while I am a verbose person.

I am not actually the wallposter I have the reputation of being.

You KNOW.
You KNOW better than this bullshit.

I'm closer to a spamposter than a wallposter. I get literally hundreds of posts in a game. HUNDREDS. And guess what? I spent the majority of my iso on Pine! I spent the majority of my time advocating for his death. Nobody else's. I spent some time on other reads, yes. Outlining townreads. Outlining other scumreads. Saying places I'd lynch. But I was adamant Pine die, and I made no secret as to why. I was about as clear as I could be: Pine was scum. I knew he was scum. I pointed out the things which made him scum.

[mastina]

I can't for the life of me think of any role that rhymes with aids. I'm gonna take your earlier post that BBmolla isn't confirmed at face value.

I can think of something rhyming with aids, and if so, I would be crying tears of laughter and joy.

I should say no more for obvious reasons.
And it's like 90% I'm wrong anyway.
But I thought of something which if true would put a gigantic smile on my face and make me wish that was me.

[mastina]

Do you think Mastin wouldn't bus/distance from a scum buddy or something?

I can think of a few reasons for why I would form a stance in which I avoid it.

That, not even going into how.
Oh, you know.

It's fucking PINE you're talking about as who my scumbuddy would be.
PINE.
My first frenemy, and you think, honestly, in our first game together in

over two years

(my proxy's having trouble so I can't look up the exact timeline, but Duck Tales mafia along with that one SC multiball game in which you were the serial killer were my last games with him), instead of working with him, instead of buddying up to him, instead of using this as a chance to reunite and reconcile, I instead go "lolbus"?

Go fuck yourself.

[mastina]

Oh and if you think that years-old meta isn't valid, let's try my last scumgame where bussing was actually a possible thing.
Inorganic Chemistry had me adamantly resist the Aristophanes wagon.
The ika bus was basically done out of frustration with a side of need--he had a very clear, unambiguous scumtell. All he had to do was show up in-thread and then his wagon would have collapsed. He did not. And I did it knowing that it would give no town credit: EVERYONE in the game knew that ika was double-bussed. Literally everyone, because every name off of the wagon (save PV) was conftown by the next day. So that wasn't a bus for towncred.

[mastina]

As to your second point, I will admit that my initial read of the game placed mastina as Town because I didn't think her tone was being faked; that it would come from a bus. I gave her the benefit of the doubt. But if you and other vets in the game are saying this is within scum!mastina's range, I will also give you the benefit of the doubt. I absolutely hate being tricked by tone and my gut feeling is that mastina's was Town who just had a really good tell on Pine. If enough people tell me that my gut is being stupid, I'll stop relying on it.

Okay. zefiend's previous posting was null enough: it wasn't town, but it wasn't something I felt was a strong indicator of being scum.

This?

This, though? Pure scumposting.

[mastina]

but holding a vanillize shot is a huge drawback.

It's two-shot.
You really think scum are going to waste a two-shot role N1, in a large theme?

That's like scum blindly using a 1-shot strongman in a mini theme, blindly, on a player who hasn't roleclaimed.

Sure it COULD happen but it'd be absolutely moronic to do. You save the shots until you have actual threats to remove.

[mastina]

@Nero
Interesting. You know, from an outsider perspective, the whole You (Nero)-Titus-Infinity triangle is perplexing. You keep hinting at lynching or flipping Infinity or possibly even that he's scum. You do know that that's Titus's top push?
Or is Infinity more like a "wait til more flips to reassess" type of lynch?

Did I say zefiend's last post was pure scumposting?
I take it back.
zefiend's last post is fucking SAINTLY compared to this.

THIS is essence le scum.

[mastina]

I'm going to just full on claim JailKeeper right here.

Yeah.
I don't need any more than this.

If you think we have a jailkeeper.
AND, on top of the jailkeeper, have a 1x rolestop.
YET ALONE, a JOAT with the 1x rolestop and two other potentially useful abilities.

You're an absolutely shitty balancer.

That's NOT a combination a sane moderator would make.

NOW, on the other hand...a rolestopper/redirector/deflector for scum, with the jailkeeper as town?

That makes a metric fuckton of sense.

So again.

Lynch. Molla.

[Nero Cain]

Yeah I'm not really buying into the whole "no way would I bus Pine since we are besties from way back." I think you'd bus him/he'd want to be bussed if it gave scum a tactical advantage. As soon as he used his ability he was very likely to get lynched and scum would have known this day 1.

[Infinity 324]

Is this really a thing? I haven't looked at a ton of scum fakeclaims in themes/been scum in themes but how can you be so confident fire wouldn't just...save certain town roles for scum fakeclaims and not give them to town?

Again.
One, experience.
Two, because I know what's shitty.

And giving scum a fakeclaim of something they can be proven to not have?
That's shitty.

I'll look at fire's other theme games, but I don't like that the majority of your case on molla relies on this specific assumption about the setup.

Again, doctor, hider, BP, and cop are all fakeclaims that can't be proven false except sometimes by a tracker or by a follower.

[Infinity 324]

but holding a vanillize shot is a huge drawback.

It's two-shot.
You really think scum are going to waste a two-shot role N1, in a large theme?

That's like scum blindly using a 1-shot strongman in a mini theme, blindly, on a player who hasn't roleclaimed.

Sure it COULD happen but it'd be absolutely moronic to do. You save the shots until you have actual threats to remove.

But doing that then joining the rogue crew? Especially when he was already under pressure?

seems unlikely