Open 669 - Nightless Vengeful Mayhem [Game Over]

[Superhans]

Or UD + Revan

[doomfeathers]

I was catching up and got a PM saying Day 3 has started. I honestly have no idea who got lynched.

Hi everyone I wanna be lynchbait too

I fixed your typos

-M

Yeah, pretty much. I'm not sure why I posted that.

I think Superhans could have seen that UD got away with "accidental" hammering and decided to try it himself. As UD themself has pointed out, it seems unlikely for someone to do it again so soon.

@Superhans: It would be a very hard decision. Maybe you, I guess?

[Ultimate Despair]

I think that's the entirety of our mozami read related posts from D1. If anyone wants to ask about specifics, fine, but "well what did you say" was always a time-wasting question. If it was simply sloppy or poor communication on Magna's part, fine, but it shouldn't be my job to dredge up this stuff.

Spoiler:

taking doomfeathers confusion about game mechanics at face value.
seems an unnecessary scum gambit. so he's provisional town.

I don't see this? It's not a gambit, he loses nothing if he goes through with it, and it might get him townread by people like you. Why do you feel it's unecessary?

- Junko

Time to scum hunt on the Sesq wagon.

@doom:

Sesq has posted five times, but has neither generated content nor voted seriously. She seems to be coasting. Friend Computer has done the same.

Inactive player is more scummy than all the other players you were analyzing? Is this really the strongest vote you could come up with at that time?

@mozamis:

It could be scum using the non day 1 start as an excuse to jump on the doom wagon.

This is a patently made up reason. I think Sesq's intentions were clear. You don't really believe this, do you?

VOTE: mozamis

also: why is doom town rather than NAI?


- Junko

wguerts post 39 is town. thinking about the game,wanting to discuss the game, actively engaged. All the things scum tend to avoid.

This post concerns me. Your take seems to boil down to "he's doing stuff, therefore town" which is a pretty surface-level treatment of what looks like a pretty null post that any somewhat competent scum player could pretty easily make.

I'm even more concerned given that there was a pretty substantive point made against the post, by Magna at 59, that you either missed or chose to not address.

Now that I've drawn your attention to both Magna's point and the general "posting a bunch of words that aren't entirely fluff doesn't make someone town" argument, why did you think that 39 was in particular town? Do you think Magna's points are illegitimate or incorrect?

which is a pretty surface-level treatment

it's also ockhams razor. may not suffice for the whole game, but for day one, early reads, it's not a bad way to start P.O.E.

Hey cool. Now do you want to discuss the issue of Magna disagreeing with your take and his reasons, or are you just gonna respond to the part of my post you wanted to respond to?

Also, were you aware of magna's point when you made your 91 in the first place or had you missed it?

-M

I feel like mozamis's 68 read is scum KNOWING it wasn't a gambit. Mozamis is definitely in my lynch pool for today, but I still want some content before voting.

Generically I would tend to agree with this one, but I'm a bit hesitant just because it's possible that this was more in response to doom being a slot that attracted votes (i.e. if it had simply come out of nowhere, I'd be more inclined to think it just made it a villager spew in the world where Mozami flips scum). I cautiously agree that doom gets town points given a red flip from mozami, but I don't think it's hard clearing.

-M

why did you think that 39 was in particular town? Do you think Magna's points are illegitimate or incorrect?

god, dont get so pedantic. wgerts is so, so town. if you have ANY experience of this game at all, you know he is.

Hey cool, now you've shown awareness of the points being raised and have dismissed them as my being pedantic.

Because 39? Not an obvtown post. wgeurts may well be town, but that post wasn't a solid reason for it, and I'm concerned about the fact that you concluded that it was solid cause to townread him.

-M

I still refuse to partake in this shenanigans. :/

Town town town post.

Explain how? Just because of his refusal to bow to the expectation put on him or something else? I find the scum explanation of simply not being able to answer it (and backing out of the substantive part of the debate) plausible, with a "well I'm just doing it my way" note tacked on as an attempt to look townie/stubborn. Overall it seems null to me, with town and scum explanations pretty reasonable. Why do you think it's obvtown?

I still refuse to partake in this shenanigans. :/

Town town town post.

Looks like a contradiction to me, and you look like you may be backing up scum to me. Then again, Revan looked like he was trying to distract town, and his stopping of it feels kinda town, and then IDK

I guess Mozamis could still be scum and Revan town, and I'm going with that. VOTE: Mozamis until he starts being productive and/or less scummy.

What is the contradiction? And how is Mozami "backing up"? His 241 expressed irritation at Revan without containing suspicion/scum read, and his 238 expressly indicated a town read there. So as a potential town process, it actually looks highly consistent.

What am i missing here?

-M

Also @Junko – why were you disagreeing directly with Sesq’s reasoning for scum reading Mozamis and still voting Mozamis as “scum on the Sesq wagon”?

At that time I thought mozamis was scum but not for the same reasons sesq had expressed

Hey cool, now you've shown awareness of the points being raised and have dismissed them as my being pedantic.

Because 39? Not an obvtown post. wgeurts may well be town, but that post wasn't a solid reason for it, and I'm concerned about the fact that you concluded that it was solid cause to townread him.

-M

Mozamis did you think you could get away with ignoring this?

- Junko

State of my reads atm:

I agree with Mukuro that Sesq or FC is likely the daykiller and we should be lynching in there. My townread on Revan has vanished and I think there is a chance he is goon. Mozamis is very likely goon as well.

VOTE: Sesq

I chose Sesq over FC here because I have a stronger read on her. Particularly dislike the "hehe, I'm worthless/an asshole" bit. I don't buy MOI's stuff about caught for wrong reasons but I do buy the stuff where she makes a big townwall as wagon increased. I think thats more likely to be indicative of daykiller panic than FC's lurking/voting mod.

- Junko

Because 39? Not an obvtown post.

i think its because i thought that WAS a really fucking town post. and he eother looked really town before, or just after.
whatever. the guy couldnt be more town.

Explain to me why this is Mozamis as town genuinely townreading wgeurts rather than Mozamis as scum handing out a townread in order to get cred & look like stubborn town who has a strong read they won't let go off.

Because I think mozamis as town here would give reasons, and you haven't given any

- Junko

wguerts post 39 is town. thinking about the game,wanting to discuss the game, actively engaged. All the things scum tend to avoid.

I'd already given my reasons. In a way, does it matter? As scum, i would say he is town cos i know it, and as town I would say he looks town because HE LOOKS SO FUCKING TOWN. The main gist of his posting early on was that he was clearly trying to get the game moving. Scum dont try and do that. ANd he was handing out unprovoked,strong reads. That's the GIST of what he was doing.
And that's what I'm good at. Giving the over view, seeing the wood from the trees.
You are obviously a "details" man, getting to grips with the minutae. Cool. We have different personalities, different playstyles. Dont fall into the trap of thinking I play like you as town. You stick with the point by point stuff. I 'll keep giving out the big, general stuff.
Aaaaaaaaaaaand the caffeine's still going lol

Your attempt to skirt the issue has been denied. I don't care how big picture you are being, my other head already showed you why the reasons you are using to read wgeurts as town are not real reasons. You keep asserting that it's "so fucking town" and "scum wouldn't do that" but scum do it all the time if they're even remotely competent.

And what concerns me is that you're not bothering to re-evaluate. A town member who's been told that their town read needs to be reevaluated will evaluate that townread because town members are afraid of derpclearing scum. The confidence in your post stems from certain knowledge about wgeurt's alignment.

- Junko

You saying “Please explain your Town read on wgeuts” and saying Moz’s reasoning is bad isn’t really very compelling Day 1 as a reason for him to totally re-assess.

Do you not Town read Wguets?

It's a compelling reason. If their reasoning has been proven wrong, they should want to re-assess their read, because the carpet just got yanked out from under them, so to speak.

I do townread Wgeurts. But I also think that mozamis handing out this kind of read and being absurdly stubborn about it is frivolous and could be scum trying to buddy or look good if wgeurts flips town.

@UD, what is your current read on Mozamis?

Scumlean.

- Junko

-M

[Superhans]

My hammer was a genuine accident although I know my word means very little.

[doomfeathers]

Not that I care if u believe me.

LAMIST.

Sorry Doomfeathers but I think you're wrong on at least 1/3 and probably 2/3.

Yeah, I usually am, but could you at least explain where?

Unvote or I will vote you.

What's the problem with voting? Also, do you usually use your vote as to threaten people rather than to hunt scum?

Quick phone post to say - you both know this is effectively LYLO right?

With that flip I will have to really, really reassess. More on that after lunch and errands.

Not LYLO, but MYLO. There's a difference.

@UD: One question: What's your intent in posting that?

[Nahdia_Superfan]

What's the problem with voting? Also, do you usually use your vote as to threaten people rather than to hunt scum?

Short answer: yes. I came from EM and that's rather commonplace.

[Nahdia_Superfan]

The issue with voting is that I am trying to think my way through the best way to deal with this day phase and I don't want people to start wagons and enable scum quickhammers.

[Nahdia_Superfan]

I am going to do nothing in this game until the 4th. I will do my catchup then. Don't vote anyone or get too entrenched in reads between then and now.

[Revan]

UD answer my question before I answer yours.

[Ultimate Despair]

@UD: One question: What's your intent in posting that?

I assume you mean 850? I expressed disapproval of your bad posting while not expressing an opinion (since I wasn't sure) on whether it was an actual lynchbaity post or merely your attempt to look like lynchbait (since that's been discussed as a concept). I don't know that it had all that much in the way of intent tbh.
-M

[Ultimate Despair]

UD why did you scumread FC? I noticed that you offered no explanation D1 when I was reading your ISO.

I thought that FC made a lot of sense as a dayvig given the plausibility of a "panic" move there. I also thought that his near-total total lack of content while being wagoned made snese as frozen scum or anti-spew. I don't recall off the top of my head what else there was. I suppose I might have thought his last couple posts were giving up scum too i guess.
-M

[doomfeathers]

The issue with voting is that I am trying to think my way through the best way to deal with this day phase and I don't want people to start wagons and enable scum quickhammers.

My word, you're right. If scum could arrange a time in the daychat, they could quicklynch and win.

No, Ultimate, I meant 877.

[doomfeathers]

Today, we should probably vote only if we're sure we would want to lynch our votee today.

[Superhans]

So L3 is dangerous territory.

[doomfeathers]

Yup. And L-3 is one vote.

[Ultimate Despair]

877 was because you're now the second person who's asked me "well what were you actually saying about moz" so rather than just waste time bitching about people wasting my time I'd just take the couple of minutes it took to dig up the posts and post them. Perhaps now I can answer substantive questions about it instead of fluff questions.
-M

[Superhans]

Vote like:
I will vote x

[Ultimate Despair]

btw, it's 8 alive and 5 to lynch, so 2 votes is L-3, not 1 vote
-M

[doomfeathers]

877 was because you're now the second person who's asked me "well what were you actually saying about moz" so rather than just waste time bitching about people wasting my time I'd just take the couple of minutes it took to dig up the posts and post them. Perhaps now I can answer substantive questions about it instead of fluff questions.
-M

You misunderstood what I was saying, but thanks, anyway.

btw, it's 8 alive and 5 to lynch, so 2 votes is L-3, not 1 vote
-M

Oops, you're right. My bad.

[Ultimate Despair]

Do you have a problem with restating what you've said for the sake of convenience, then?

^Were you going for something else then? Becuase that read to me like you wanted me to go back and dig up the info? Or did you mean instead of quoting it, just somehow rephrasing it or something?
-M

[doomfeathers]

Actually I'll go even further. Generically, I would consider it fairly likely that one of the following is true

1) FC or Sesq was the scum dayvig and panicked
2) FC and Sesq were both scum and they both (or perhaps their whole team) collectively panicked

I think that Hawk was a pretty bizarre shot if this was some kind of well thought out, intentional scum strategy. I think that it's exceptionally strange to waste one of two valuable kill shots on a relative newbie who has made only 15 posts, at a time when day 1 was nowhere close to being over (scum get only two free kills, and it is highly likely that at some point during the game, at least one townie will emerge as someone that the scum REALLY want dead but can't easily get mislynched, and there is a pretty decent list of people here who could plausibly slip into that role eventually). The most logical explanation is, rather than this being a wise move, that this was a panicked and ill-thought out reaction to the game state.

Not sure whether that makes me want to wagon Sesq or FC, but I'm somewhat skeptical that I'd want to wagon elsewhere.

-M

I don't agree with this theory that the DK was a reaction to panic. I agree that there was definite intent behind the Hawk kill as the shots were valuable, but it is early D1, and it seems like an unbelievably audacious gambit that the death of Hawk would somehow throw the kill off of the FC wagon. Why would FC or Sesq try and kill Hawk so early in the day when they still have plenty of time to shift the pressure off of themselves without wasting a DK?

It did, indirectly, lead to the deaths of FC and Sesq. Could that have been the intent?

The fact that Hans keeps insisting that he hammered by accident makes it look to me as if it's true. Maybe he's not scum.

@UD: I was asking whether you had a problem with restating your reads when asked. I wasn't asking. Being touchy about one's reads seemed scummy to me.

[Ultimate Despair]

@UD: I was asking whether you had a problem with restating your reads when asked. I wasn't asking. Being touchy about one's reads seemed scummy to me.

I'm not touchy about my reads, I'm touchy about people wasting my time with busywork questions. As a demonstration of this, try to explain a hypothetical where magna's "repost your read" bit would have somehow exposed scum!ud as having had fake reads. If you can't get there, then it was a waste of my time.
-M

[havingfitz]

That seemed sudden. Game is at L-2...I go to lunch and return to a modmail. And a replacee (yay?). Annnd moz flips town.

My paranoia is kicking in and you are all suspects btw.

Nahdia_Superfan...is there a shorter acronym you are ok with because that's not going to work and I would prefer not to offend. NS? NahdiaS..etc...etc...

Also NS...wtf with that quick moz vote? And then post-flip you have the nerve to lecture/threaten Hans for putting down a vote. lol.
Since you apparently had a read on moz independent of "Look who MOI is voting!!!!" do you have any other reads you had developed? Thoughts on Rev, Hans and/or UD? Since they were the other alternatives at the time.

And WTF? You (NS) replace in to a game and then announce an immediate hiatus for the next two day? @#$%^&!

And MOI...you were the driving force in both mislynches iirc. Certainly moz. Not that I or anyone else on those wagons thought the points you were making were disingenuous....but credit has to go to you for holding the steering wheel. You have to be considered...and anyone in this game who's in your fan club are IMO either scum blowing smoke up town!MOI's ass, really creative scum buddies reverseWIFOMdistancing from scum!MOI or really shortsighted town regardless of your alignment.

UD...you casting shade on Hans for his hammer seems a bit ironic. I think his vote and oops looked pretty genuine. What I do find a bit weird is you giving him a hard time abou the hammer before we even knew the flip. Prior to knowledge that moz was town....you should be more focused on let's see what the flip is and not suspecting someone who is voting the same player as you. I.e. who's like minded. Your little pre-flip exchange just seems a bit knowing to me.

MYLO LYLO....either or...no matter. Scum still have a dayvig left so if we don't lynch scum today it's game over.

I probably won't have a decent stretch of time to look things over until tomorrow. I might be able to do the quick phone response between now and then but any concerted effort for analysis by me isn't happening today. I want to look at everyone.

And I agree....no reason to drop votes any time soon.

[doomfeathers]

My paranoia is kicking in and you are all suspects btw.

This is town if it's not LAMIST.

You have to be considered...and anyone in this game who's in your fan club are IMO either scum blowing smoke up town!MOI's ass, really creative scum buddies reverseWIFOMdistancing from scum!MOI or really shortsighted town regardless of your alignment.

*raises hand*

MYLO LYLO....either or...no matter. Scum still have a dayvig left so if we don't lynch scum today it's game over.

No, that's not the case. In LYLO, we don't have the option of voting "no lynch". In MYLO, we do.

[doomfeathers]

@UD: Whatever. I still think that's a lot of fuss to avoid a short summary.