STEVEN UNIVERSE 2 - GAME OVER

Varsoon · Post Post #12450 (ISO) » Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:28 pm

In post 12448, Reasonably Rational wrote:

So since LYLO requires a successfull scum kill/town death during the night after the no lynch, while no scum are removed, if the game state were such that it were possible for the scum kill to fail, OR for a member of the scum team to be removed, would LYLO still occur?

-Cerb

Yes. LYLO will only be ever be calculated purely by numbers and public effects--hidden possibilities such as the ones you mentioned would not influence LYLO.

ISO · Post Post #12451 (ISO) » Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:57 pm

Should mention this here, too, I suppose, though I don't think it's an issue:

Mod:

Dangerously close to losing power here. No power = no internet, so if the power goes down, I'll be V/LA for an indefinite amount of time. (Likely a day or two if it does.)
If it doesn't go down, I can focus on the game tomorrow.

Reasonably Rational · Post Post #12452 (ISO) » Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:54 am

Spoiler: First half of the D3 alliance with A50

-Cerb

Reasonably Rational · Post Post #12453 (ISO) » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:27 pm

In post 12450, Varsoon wrote:
In post 12448, Reasonably Rational wrote:

So since LYLO requires a successfull scum kill/town death during the night after the no lynch, while no scum are removed, if the game state were such that it were possible for the scum kill to fail, OR for a member of the scum team to be removed, would LYLO still occur?

-Cerb

Yes. LYLO will only be ever be calculated purely by numbers and public effects--hidden possibilities such as the ones you mentioned would not influence LYLO.

Okay, so this, plus the logical sequence that clears A50 when grapes is town, means an A50+Shiro team is absolutely impossible. Even if grapes were somehow town(which he's not) and chose to lie about his ability, when we had 5 alive yesterday the lynch threshold would not have been increased by tragic destiny if any two living slots could be scum together.

Which brings us to your question, mastin, about the similar roles. I don't believe I've ever seen Varsoon use three roles with an identical application in a game before, but these aren't identical. I actually wouldn't even include TWIE in the conversation, because he's a self watcher, not a tracker

Now, given the innate limitations of both roles, and the fact that said roles were the scum teams only ways to discover what powers town had(other than DGBs ally power, which wasn't information the rest of the team had access to), I don't find it impossible, or even implausible, that both those powers existed on the scum team.

In short, the similarities are worth noting, but not conclusive.

With all that said...

VOTE: Shiro

I'm torn between the two options. Drixx is pretty sure it's Grapes/A50, but since I don't have any actual reason to prefer the A50/grapes team over the shiro/grapes one, I'll leave it in your hands. I had some brief thought of talking to shiro and seeing if he felt it was more likely that an A50/grapes team exists than that I'm scum, and if so urging him to withhold his vote and hold the game hostage the way you did on previous days to ensure you didn't make make a choice that 1/2 of the voices remaining alive disagree with, but I realized it would just be emotional vindictiveness and rejected it in favor of giving you the room you need to make the optimal play.

You make your choice mastin, and hopefully it's the right one. I'll keep working on getting the pts out there at least, the game summary is a lot less likely to happen . If you prefer one over the other let me know and I'll try to comply with the higher priority request.

-Cerb

mastin2 · Post Post #12454 (ISO) » Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:07 pm

Uhg, I really, really wanted to do stuff tonight.
Especially for this game.
I might be busy tomorrow modding, but otherwise, I'm going to make it my top priority. There's some things I need to read, and also an important post to make towards Reasonably Rational about them. I was planning to do that tonight, but while it's only 1:00 AM, I'm feeling as shitty as I would if it were 4. I need to get to sleep, and fairly soonish.

I mean, here shoulda been my top priority ANYWAY to be fully honest, but this time I'm saying it verbally, in here, as a promise to you all.

I'm feeling like a failure on every level, here.

I simply am not going to be giving you what you want.

Shiro · Post Post #12455 (ISO) » Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:00 am

Tbh RR, it would be impossible to convince me that there are two scum left anyway. I would have just hoped that maybe it is almost that is scum instead of you.

Reasonably Rational · Post Post #12456 (ISO) » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:27 am

In post 12455, Shiro wrote:Tbh RR, it would be impossible to convince me that there are two scum left anyway. I would have just hoped that maybe it is almost that is scum instead of you.

If it's one scum, then it's Grapes or you. Can't be A50 solo because Grapes had ample opportunity to correct MoI on what his event did and chose not to, so a town!Grapes would only have been hiding that his event was climax only and solo scum A50 would be known guilty due to the event. Thus Grapes can be scum with anyone, but A50 can only be scum with Grapes. Assuming that it's just one scum would be a really good way to lose.

~Drixx

Reasonably Rational · Post Post #12457 (ISO) » Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:24 am

In post 12456, Reasonably Rational wrote:
In post 12455, Shiro wrote:Tbh RR, it would be impossible to convince me that there are two scum left anyway. I would have just hoped that maybe it is almost that is scum instead of you.
If it's one scum, then it's Grapes or you. Can't be A50 solo because Grapes had ample opportunity to correct MoI on what his event did and chose not to, so a town!Grapes would only have been hiding that his event was climax only and solo scum A50 would be known guilty due to the event. Thus Grapes can be scum with anyone, but A50 can only be scum with Grapes. Assuming that it's just one scum would be a really good way to lose.

~Drixx

Umm, no Drixx. Grapes and Shiro can't be solo scum because of the bubbling(unless the gems were a malevolent 3p whose presence kept the game from ending, or they lied/were misinformed about whether those they had bubbled would allow the game to continue if they were scum(this second possibility only makes sense if the gems had a second step they could initiate to fully remove the slot(which I guess could have been keeping them bubbled overnight and seeing if there were no kills), but both of those are unlikely and purely speculative and should be dismissed as such)). That plus the fact that town grapes=dead A50 if he were scum means there must be two scum remaining.

In all possible two scum scenarios, grapes is scum, due to purely mechanical PoE, and his behavior yesterday to trick the town into releasing him.

The question is which slot is his partner.

-Cerb

mastin2 · Post Post #12458 (ISO) » Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:47 pm

Alright. So what I'm going to do today is going to be long. Very, very, very long. In my notes, when addressing the dead thread, I gave it the tongue-in-cheek phrase of being my list of grievances with your slot, RR. It'd be a little more accurate to say it's an open-ended case of sorts.

Basically, I'm not presenting this information to convince anyone. I'm not presenting this information as a justification--you'll note that I'm not actually voting you after presenting all of this. It's a genuine, open request, a plea of sorts, for you to address the issues with your slot that I have in my notes. You won't be able to address every concern of mine--that's fine. (I also won't be raising every concern of mine, since many are strewn across the thread and I haven't had time to research them and bring them together; these are purely my issues off of memory.)

But I do need you to address as many of these as you can. Fully and entirely. Because they are many. They are strong points. They are how I am seeing things, basically. We'll start with some of the basics.

The abilities you possess flavor-wise fit Army as being the last scum

.
The kill-upon hammer, and the forceful blocking of an ally, both seem like traits which fit the last scum for being Army. In contrast, the other two possible players for being Army (Almost50, Shiro) have abilities that I don't think make sense as coming from Army.
How would they, flavor-wise, make sense? How would yours NOT make sense? Because by the flavor as I understand it, your abilities are a perfect match for the flavor of Army; their abilities don't fit for Army at all.

The abilities you possess don't seem to match well with your given flavor of Sadie

.
Related to the above. While Beachapalooza is no doubt a Sadie event, we know that scum's town-events are tailored to their fakeclaim. I have no issue with the Beachapalooza events. But I maintain that your standard abilities seem to not match Sadie's flavor. I can

kind-of

see them. Sort-of. But it seems like a stretch. It feels like something Varsoon would give as a fakeclaim. It feels like something that is "close enough" to fit as a fakeclaim, but isn't as close as it'd be if it were an actual town role.

Now to be fair! I haven't looked up Shiro's flavor. I haven't looked up Almost50's flavor. I want to, and think I need to, to see how well THEIR abilities match their claims. If their abilities seem like a stretch, then this point would be invalid. But if their abilities seem to just naturally "fit", then this point becomes relevant: yours doesn't seem to fit well.

The abilities you possess give the scum a much-needed strength boost

.
Almost50 has a tracker/watcher-type ability, when the scum have TWO other tracker/watcher abilities. This redundancy seems incredibly unlikely. (Additionally, if Almost50 were scum, that'd mean the town didn't have ANY tracker/watcher-type abilities.) Furthermore, his enhancement ability would give scum YET ANOTHER kill enhancement ability, something their scumteam has plenty of, between their scum roles and scum factional events which have been triggered throughout the game.
Shiro's ability is absolutely worthless to the scumteam outside of ONE specific scenario, that being, a permanent DGB neighborhood with scum. Aside from that one specific usage, aside from that one specific instance, Shiro's power grants the scum absolutely nothing.

In contrast, your claimed hammer ability (which, by the way, I'm not certain exists--why was SirCakez bubbled when you hammered D1? By my understanding of your ability, you should have caused him to instantly flip) would be able to shut down farside's lynch immunity and the gem's bubbling, among others. (Heck, it might've been able to even overcome increased lynch threshold!) It's an ability which can hurt town, but can't hurt scum because scum had no lynch immunity as you have claimed across the game they would possess.

Furthermore, and this is the ironic thing: you made a point in your ranting about how the scumteam lacks a way of shutting down the scum's power. This is true. The scum's flipped powers this game revolve almost entirely around TWO basic concepts: blending into the townbloc with town-sounding abilities...and enhanced kills to overcome protection on conftown. Yet there IS a slight deficit in scum power. The scumteam can blend into the town. The scumteam can get extra kills on town. But the scumteam, as it is, has no way aside from enhanced kills to actually

shut down

the town.

This deficit in scum power is not enough to justify an extra scumbag. It's only a slight deficit, not a severe one. Having an extra scumbag swings the game the other direction, giving them too much power, especially if said extra scumbag would be Almost50. But it IS enough where I thought the scum needed SOME form of power...and your claimed roleblock ability offers exactly that. Furthermore, if the scumteam's extra member is Shiro, it still doesn't solve the problem of scum being unable to shut down conftown.

The timing/reason you joined the SirCakez wagon felt like bussing for towncred

.
You have consistently stated you have done this as your main selling point for why you are town. Yet your statement feels like you are overselling the importance of your position there. At the time you made your case against SirCakez, SirCakez was the main wagon, backed by many conftown/obvtown players such as myself. We were pushing HARD to get him lynched. Your vote hop onto the wagon there felt reminiscent of the way you bussed your scumbuddy on D1 in SC's game when you knew they were going down: it was a lost cause, on a player who was by and large now useless (thanks to DGB), and thus, running simple cost-benefit analysis would show that the benefit of bussing outweighed the cost of losing a scumbuddy.

Furthermore, you have painted a picture in which you say that your case important...and yet, behind closed doors, you were privately trying to dismantle your own case. With Titus, privately, you were attempting to discredit your own case. To make it weaker. To make it less valid. You were attempting to shift momentum AWAY from SirCakez in private, while publicly pushing him. This strongly looks like "having your cake and eating it two", trying to have it both ways: you publicly want the towncred, yet privately want SirCakez alive. Stuff like this is where you show that:

In post 12418, Reasonably Rational wrote:OWK: Vote SC.
Cerb:"I need to respond to his response. It, well, it actually was fairly reasonable. There are a couple things in there that pique my interest, but overall it's not bad. My skim doesn't say it's so not bad as to outweigh everything else, but it's worth looking into. "
Cerb:"So, just something to consider: If SC is scum, it seems basically impossible to get him lynched today. Between his teammates not voting him, and the joyride members not voting him, we'll basically need like 70%+ of the remaining town to vote for him. The existence of the joy ride even muddles how obvious it could be if his teammates refused to vote for him. "
Titus: We'll get the votes, don't worry.
OWK: Your vote will be the tipping point.
Cerb:"It is 100% up to mastin whether this particular issue becomes major or not. We'll see what she has to say whenever she shows up.

Honestly, I would *much* prefer the NC wagon over this one, considering that one just completely disappeared for no reason I can see."
Cerb:"Hate blank votes, coming from the slots they come from it makes me suspicious thst we've reached the tipping point and those two votes are scum rushing to make sure they're on the lynch,but probably at worst only one of xkfyu and creature is scum (assuming a scum flip from SC of course). If he's town, they could both easily be scum. That's pure theory talk though, doesn't take into account either slots play style. "
Titus: minimum of one is scum.
Cerb:"Actually, if he flips town, it's REALLY unlikely that either is scum imo. Considering the thread apathy, there would be no need for scum to jump on this wagon to push it over the edge."
Cerb:"I don't want him hammered until I can sort out wtf farside and A50 are doing. How did A50 miss what was apparently a line in his pt that told him he was BP/now figure out the source of it? Why would farside remove the bp and targeting restrictions? It doesn't make sense."
Cerb:"The real point of my search for clarity, OWK, is to determine if A50 KNEW that SC could grant BP to mastin(or at least, if he SHOULD have known). Determining whether or not I trust his claim to have "missed" it is another issue entirely.

Any thoughts on NC completely ignoring the post where I tell him that his opinion regarding this issue isn't trustworthy because he's most likely to be lynched if the SC lynch doesn't go through? I would have expected him to note that I'm just as likely to be lynched(since the main point of that argument is that the same people who are going after SC are suspicious of him as well, and there's a moderate overlap with those who are suspicious of me as well). "
Cerb: "NC has been an unsubstantiated scumread for awhile, largely influenced by both Drixx and yourself. He's on the list of things to look into if I ever get the time."

You also unvoted at a time where it was realistic that unvoting would have killed the momentum on his wagon altogether.

The game narrative best matches with you as scum

.
It's true that the scumteam doesn't necessarily

require

a scum mastermind...but all the same, it's undeniable that the scumteam's actions this game have been, by and large, "smart". They have been on-point. Every time the town developed a strategy which was meant to catch/confirm scum and lock down a town win, they managed to prevent this from happening, every single time, every step of the way.

This doesn't match the level of quality I would expect from a Shiro scumteam. This does not match what I think grapes is capable of doing as scum. It could theoretically come from Almost50, but even then that feels like a stretch. But the scum slipping through the cracks makes perfect sense if you are scum, because exploiting gaps in town strategies and synergy is something you happen to specialize at doing.

The stances you have held have consistently been the stances most convenient for the scumteam

.
You were a late pusher of SirCakez, not understanding the wagon initially, and then making a push when it was inevitable. When SirCakez claimed and some players unvoted, you too unvoted, making the SirCakez wagon no longer inevitable.
You similarly protected DGB until it was shown beyond any reasonable doubt she would be scum.

You reversed your stance on Skybird. Initially, you advised against mechanically clearing Skybird for knowing who Steven was on D1 (but formed a nulltown read on her slot anyway). Then, come D2, suddenly you have her as unlynchable town...not via play, but because...she knew who Steven was on D1. The very thing you advised against doing, and yet she went from nulltown to unlynchable town, violating your prior advice.

While you said you noted that "TWIE needs to do something to be town, else lynch him", when push actually came to shove, you showed incredible resistance to his lynch. You were advocating for farside's death that day, insisting that we follow Titus's will rather than mine. You eventually relented when I continued pressing the issue, but I had to fight tooth and nail to get that lynch through.

You protected Shadow_step when he was up for a lynch. The votes between Creature and Shadow_step were basically tied, and your vote helped swing momentum towards the Creature lynch. You voted for an incredibly-scummy, opportunistic-sounding reason as well, "welp, might as well do this", essentially, rather than a clear-cut case for why Creature was the superior lynch.

Furthermore, you also kept Fuzzy from vigging Shadow_step, which not only gave Shadow_step an extra day alive (forcing us to lynch him), but also prevented Fuzzy from being confirmed as town, because Fuzzy's shot going through that night would have confirmed Fuzzy as town (since scum couldn't act).

Then, you convinced Fuzzy to shoot farside. Farside was immune to the scum nightkill. She could NOT be killed by them. Both the conftown players were heavily defending her. And with her executioner-lite role, she would be incredibly hard to lynch. With ANY non-farside wagon gaining ANY momentum, she could use her role and force the lynch through on a non-her player, and that is something the scum couldn't have around. (She was also heavily-scumreading your slot.)

Additionally, Fuzzy shooting farside rather than in you/Almost50 prevented the resolution of the grapes/Almost50/RR/Fuzzy dilemma which CONTINUES EVEN NOW DAYS LATER because it wasn't resolved.
This, not even going into your consistent third party paranoia. Your paranoia towards the crystal gem faction. Your paranoia towards farside. How much paranoia am I to expect is actually reasonable or rational coming from you?

And then, on a last note, you resisted the plans which involved your death every step of the way. You insisted, "we need to live" almost every time. "Don't lynch us". Let a less-assured nightkill take you out instead. From a Fuzzy vig to a Shiro bubble, you've insisted on not being lynched, but rather, on the less-assured being taken out at night. This showed extreme survivalism, at a time there was no justification for doing so. (Fuck, we had an autowin plan! Why try to survive if the town can win 100% of the time?)

Almost50 advocated for his own death, his own lynch, for literally days. Shiro similarly showed signs of wanting to be dead. You always showed the opposite. You always insisted that you needed to live...or at the very least, "we shouldn't die

right now

, even if we should later". What time was "later" actually supposed to be? Because it sure hasn't materialized!

On that note, you kept randomidget from bubbling within the Almost50/RR duo off of "paranoia of an extra scum kill", which...again. Is paranoia.
Until today when you being town would necessitate the stance, so too was the idea of an extra scum paranoia. So again. At what stage am I to believe this amount of consistent paranoia is actually town? Because your constant, neverending paranoia EVERY step of the game has served to discredit town after town, cast shade on player after player, with most of them having flipped town. Why should I believe that constant paranoia casting comes from a playerslot whose fucking NAME is "Reasonably Rational"?
Because reasonable means "sound judgment; fair; sensible"; rational means "based on/in accordance with reason or logic".
Paranoia means "suspicion and mistrust of people/actions

without evidence of justification

".
It's pretty much a fucking antonym of reasonable and rational, and yet paranoia has been YOUR DEFINING TRAIT this game.

Every step of the way, you have shifted blame

.
It's NEVER been your fault. It's always someone else having fucked up. To whit,
Beachapalooza not catching scum was Titus's fault for activating her IC. A miscommunication allowing scum to hide.
The gem paranoia was Yume's fault, for not communicating appropriately.

Protecting TheWayItEnds on Day 5, that was Titus's idea, plus "farside deserved it" because she was clearly scumming the thread up.
The Creature lynch, that was Creature's fault, combined with bad communication from farside meaning she was also partially to blame. (More on that below.)

Fuzzy holding fire and not conftowning himself was his decision, his choice, not yours.
Similarly, Fuzzy shooting farside was his decision, his choice, not yours. Also, because Almost50 was pressuring him to do so, you hold no responsibility for also having pressured him to do so.

You have consistently treated me like crap the entire game

.
You have put me down every step of the way, even when I have been shown to be objectively right at almost every turn. You have ignored me when I've pointed stuff like this out before (the large majority of what I'm saying here is a rehash of old stuff I said before!), and focused on strawmanning my arguments, attacking the weakest points and acting as if that served to dismantle my entire argument.

You resisted simple requests of mine every step of the way. You have constantly stalled. The few times you address me, often from Cerb there were "misunderstandings" of what I asked, or from Drixx flat-out hostility towards my requests. You have pretended that you don't have an attitude problem, and insisted that *I* have one. You have insisted that *I* am the problem here. You have consistently pretended that nothing you've done is wrong, displaying a level of arrogance beyond what I've EVER seen from you in any capacity in a prior towngame. As Cerb, as Drixx, as RR.
On that note,

You should have known I believed you to be scum, yet acted otherwise

.
This is bad wording on my part, but during part of the game, you were actively working to discredit me. You were saying how much I wasn't actually scumreading you. How it was personal. How it was bias. How it wasn't sincere. How I was a liar. Yet you know me enough to know that was bullshit.
And similarly,

You have worked against me the majority of the lategame

.
In spite of me being conftown, rather than try and work within my requests, you discredited me in the eyes of others. You worked with randomidget, rather than me. You worked with MoI, rather than me. You worked with all the players you now think are scum, rather than working with me, the one player who was 100% conftown. I was scumreading you, yes. But you, as town, have worked with me in the past while I was scumreading you with zero problems at all. You worked around the scumread. You tried to find common ground. You tried to present stances which would get me to be more receptive. You were, in a sentence,
"Okay, I get that you're scumreading me. I can't stop that. What I can do is give you my thoughts, which are this. Please listen when I flip town". I saw basically none of that this game. Instead, I just saw, "mastina is wrong". Over and over again, addressed to everyone except for me.

Your inability to grasp these issues goes beyond reasonable doubt

.
You've never had this much problem communicating with me in past games as town. Not ONCE. Not once have you felt so off, so out of touch, with my issues towards you.

Your stances have consistently changed as most convenient/opportunistic

.
When grapes was seen as town by the rest of the town, you treated grapes as town. It was ONLY when grapes became a viable mislynch that you formed a scumread on them. And then, suddenly, when grapes became an inconvenient mislynch, you reversed your read back to town. When grapes's power potentially could break the game, you were buttering up to grapes, and when grapes was no longer an issue, this was dropped.

When I townread grapes, you formed a grapes townread yourself. When I voted grapes, it was back to a scumread. When Shiro was considered all-but-conftown, you treated Shiro as town. Yet when Shiro became the only possible realistic scum, suddenly Shiro shifted into a hard-scumread as if you were always scumreading Shiro from the start.

When Almost50 was a universal townread (and also, had you as his main townread), you had him as your strongest townread. And yet, when Almost50 turned on you and became a viable mislynch, he was suddenly a scumread of yours, a 180 reversal which went almost without any explanation whatsoever.

In this lylo phase, you have taken every step possible to prevent me from eliminating teams. You have overlooked mechanics until I have pointed it out. When you have stated things about the setup, you have prevented them from definitively ruling out teams. You have been keeping your options open, not locking yourself in. (This, in spite of my deliberate request for you to do exactly that!)

When I wasn't someone you needed the help of, you were consistently pushing me away. (See above.) And yet, now, when I'm the game-deciding vote, suddenly you're treating me a whole different way, as if all of that shitty stuff you said to me had never happened and we were always on the best of terms. Buddying up to me.

You have looked for every escape route possible

.
You've avoided closing doors. You've avoided confronting issues revolving around you. You've avoided the lynch like a plague. You've tried to find every possible way for scum to not be you. I don't see genuine scumhunting. I don't see genuine game solving. I see a player who is trying to keep options open, as to best have a chance of avoiding the noose.

You have been incredibly manipulative of the game's narrative

.
Every step of the way, you have said "we are town, we have helped the town, we did these things, and they were town". And yet, none of them are, as far as I can tell, actually true. (More on that below.)

Your private topics were incredibly manipulative

.
I haven't read the D3 one, but I have read the D1 and D2 ones.
Your blind trust in Titus felt beyond reason. The way you tried to go about gaining her trust also felt like it was something which was only of benefit to you as scum. Then when you actually did gain her trust, you went about trying to influence her. You encouraged her to lynch town players and discouraged her from voting SirCakez. (As seen above.)

Yet most of your thoughts in there were sheeping Titus--they were giving her exactly what she

wanted

to hear. You consistently were hedging bets on many key players/issues in the game. The way you were trying to make Titus ignore me, in private, when I was already conftown. And then there's how, on both D1 and D2, you point out justifications for scum acting ways now that certain behaviors have come true...before the scum acted that way, as if laying the groundwork to allow the scum to do exactly that, and leave you saying, "See, we warned you about this!".

It all was tailored to the individual. The way you treated Titus was tailored specifically to Titus. The way you treated Yume was tailored specifically to Yume. It looks like you were doing exactly what you needed to do in order to not only gain their trust, but also avoid the noose.

Your posts coming into today felt preplanned

.
It was as if you knew the outcome of the night, that randomidget would die rather than me, that you'd be most likely facing the scenario we're currently in. How would you have predicted this as town?
On that note,

You know I am prone to doubt

.
Your posts today have appealed to my natural-born fears. I am innately afraid. I am innately paranoid. I constantly reasses, with a strong fear that I might be wrong. You have appealed strongly to this fear, exploiting it. You know my personality, and know that I would be reevaluating. You know that I would reexamine. You know how prone to doubt I am, how much when I live longer than I should I begin to question fundamental assumptions.

So you know better than anyone else how well you could argue against me and appeal to my nature as a player. Why should I believe you're not?

You have made mechanical misplays which violate your namesake

.
I'm missing plenty (like you having 'forgotten' about grapes's ability's claimed -4 stress if aimed at scum), but among them are two critical ones. One, I'll mention separately.
A second involves the Creature/farside day. Farside was rather unambiguous about her role: her ROLEBLOCK could not stop factional kills; she blocked Creature.
Her ASCETIC she clarified was full-on action immunity, and COULD block the scum's factional kill, an altered detail of her claim.
She was claiming her ACTION IMMUNITY was triggered.
Yet even after this clarification, you acted as if she had a guilty on Creature she herself said she did not have.

There is a glaring hole in your play this game given your roleclaim

.
You claimed a permaroleblock, but something I noted was that you did NOT include any reference to whether that permaroleblock would affect the scum's factional abilities.
I gave you every chance to clarify this in-thread. I prodded you both on it, by asking for both heads to give the paraphrase. I also asked the question about the way your role functioned, which would have given you an additional chance to lay out the nature of the roleblock. (Admittedly I could have probably done this better.)

And yet, not ONCE did I see you claim the same clause that farside claimed, that her roleblock could not block the scum's factional abilities.
Am I to believe you left out that critical detail of your role PM? You, the mechanically-based player, neglecting to mention a vital part of your role?
Am I to believe you didn't have it spelled out in your role PM and never asked the mod for clarification on the issue?
Or am I to believe your roleblock actually COULD block the factional abilities of scum, when farside's roleblock could not?

No matter which option is the case, it's a difficult pill to swallow. No matter what, there is something absent which should not have any reason to be absent. Why did you not specify this detail? Did it never occur to you? It occurred to me, and I'm NOT the same level of mechanical genius that you two are, so why did you mention absolutely nothing about this, when FARSIDE the less-mechanically-inclined person had the mindfulness to do so?

Furthermore, I admit that this part I haven't gone to check on yet. I want to, but I haven't set aside the time to actually do it yet.

You have a permaroleblock ability.
When farside claimed her own roleblock ability, I recall nothing in the way of you trying to ask her a bunch of questions about it.
You, who had a roleblock ability yourselves.

Where was your attempt to either catch farside in a lie about it, or confirm she really had it?

Where was you pressuring her, for having a nearly-identical ability to your own? You having that ability, you could as Varsoon about it. You could get him to answer questions about yours, and lay traps for farside. Test her knowledge. Force her to ask questions to Varsoon about her role, and if she failed to deliver, you would've had proof that she was scum; if she did deliver, you would have something loosely indicating she was town.

Where was this process? This is something that should have been pathetically simple for you, the mechanical-based players, to have figured out: "farside's claiming a roleblock, we have a roleblock, let's pressure her about it". Yet I don't recall you so much as ONCE bringing this up at any point of the game.

I admit I haven't verified this point. But this is a really fucking huge thing. How could you, the mechanics-based player, make such a mistake as to pass the golden opportunity up?
This also exemplifies my problem with your attitude towards the Creature lynch. If you knew your roleblock couldn't block the factional kill, why would you think farside's could? Why try to lynch Creature that day, rather than try to lynch farside who you'd have good reason to think was a liar?

Yes, you lost your permaroleblock when Titus stole it...but you still STARTED with the ability, and had access to it for, what, three days? You could have asked about it if you had any interest in using it. And furthermore, even after having lost it, because you STARTED with the ability, V would be more than happy to answer questions about your original role PM even if the section questioned about would no longer be valid.

What have you done that was actually town?

You

say

that you have done things which were town. But what have you done that was ACTUALLY town? Aside from the SirCakez lynch, which I put my issues with above?
You cleared Skybird off of mechanics.
You kept suspicion away from DGB for as long as humanly possible.

Your main claim to being town and having towncred is the Beachapalooza event...yet that event didn't catch scum in the voting. The only way that event caught scum is via me using a gunsmith shot on TWIE, something you, personally, had no control of and no way of knowing I would do. You had no way of knowing which power I would choose. You had no way of knowing which target I would choose. You had no way of knowing I'd do that, so you cannot claim credit for it, especially when TWIE wasn't my main choice. (You were my first, you told me via Yume that'd be a waste. MoI was my second, Yume told me not to. This was all very, very public, but my investigation was not.)
The point I'm making here is that the Beachapalooza event didn't actually catch scum by nature of the votes themselves.

What have you done since then? You made a plan with Titus which would have allegedly confirmed you--except Titus died, so there wasn't anything actually town there.
You said you had an early point about TWIE needing to do anything else he'd be scum...yet on D5, you insisted on lynching farside before TWIE. A move which would have favored scum.

You lynched Creature instead of Shadow_step when both were on the line--how was that town?
You encouraged Fuzzy to hold fire when Fuzzy successfully shooting would have proven Fuzzy was town--how was that town?
You encouraged Fuzzy to shoot farside, when we knew farside was immune to the conventional scum nightkill--how was that town?
You can claim these were "the right idea, IN THEORY". You can claim that these were right ideas on principle. You can claim that these moves were technically-correct plays, plays which made sense to do at the time even though in hindsight they were mistakes.

Yet the simple fact is, in hindsight, NONE of them were actually town moves, because NONE of them brought the town closer to victory--quite the opposite, they brought the scum closer to a win each and every time.

So again, what have you done which was actually town? Not "town in theory". Not, "town if used optimally". Not, "town in ideal circumstances". Not, "town with conditions that didn't materialize".
What have you done which was town THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED?

A tl;dr of the above could be this one sentence:
The whole game, you have acted in a way convenient to scum, and yet when called out on it, denied having done so.

Reasonably Rational · Post Post #12459 (ISO) » Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:44 pm

Would you like individual answers to the post above?

-Cerb

Reasonably Rational · Post Post #12460 (ISO) » Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:47 pm

I told Drixx to answer you, because I was just going ot tell you to fuck off, and then when he said he was writing a post, I told him a bunch of shit to point out but I simply can't be fucked to make it into an actual post, so I took out the fucking time stamps of me pointing out the bullshit you said that you need to fucking choke on:
you should note that I had to go through that entire pt
post by post
and that with nobody left alive to contradict me. there's absolutely no reason why scum!me would have left that bit she views as damning in there
also note that the only person in the entire game who has actually done things for the town was xkfyu
when he killed skybird
even she had a fucking guilty on a scum slot and tried to argue against lynching them
Not ot mention the fact that her entire fucking wall
is clearly her looking at the entire game trying to find justification for her belief that we're scum
or else she's essentially scumreading us for bothering to show up and play
otherwise, why the fuck isn't she wallposting about shiro
why the fuck is the FIRST thign she looks into us
because she admits she hasn't even researched the other slots
she could have fucking looked into the other slots first, because OBVIOUSLY they have way less to look at
and arrived at conclusions about them
and been way more fucking productive
instead, today has been about her REASSURING herself
instead of seeing what the other possiblities are
also note that she missed DGB's forced roleblock/role steal thing when talking about scum ways to control town
oh, and the fact that we have a long history of not being as stupid as everyone else is in varsoon games
and not assuming that similar roles mean people are fake claiming
because we learned long ago that he does that shit deliberately
plus, farsides role was QUITE different from ours. She could just target people and block them, we had to talk people into allying us and then allying someone else
AND we also know that varsoon specifically notes if an ability can't interact with factionals
the fact that we didn't mention it, means that it obviously fucking can
and it's something there's no fucking reason for us to clarify
Oh, and you also need to note the fact that we DID NOT MISS THE FACT THAT GRAPES POWER CLEARS A50 IN THE EVENT THAT GRAPES IS TOWN
we fucking specifically mention that in the post immediatley prior
what I DO fuck up is rmeoving the A50/Shiro team as a possibility due to that same fact
but I DID NOT miss that mechanical point
not in the fucking least

-Cerb

Reasonably Rational · Post Post #12461 (ISO) » Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:05 pm

Actually. Fuck off and just fucking lynch us instead of wasting everyone's time pretending to actually evaluate the game. I'd self vote right the fuck now if self hammering in 3p lylo weren't playing against win con, just to spare myself and everyone else the pain of reading through another wall of your masturbatory prose.

I'm done dumping hours into giving you the fucking information you demanded only to have you come back and just repeat the same shulit ad nauseum.

Either play honestly or stop wasting everyone's(but mostly fucking my) time.

-Cerb

Reasonably Rational · Post Post #12462 (ISO) » Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:20 pm

Actually, also, how the fuck are our posts today preplanned? We prefucking planned for grapes to use that fucking ability to remove A50, and for random to not use his claimed bubble, and thus put us into 3p lylo? We, the people who, by your own analysis, are ONLY scum if there's just one scum left, and thus couldn't have organized shit with grapes, anticipated that he would do that, and that random wouldn't bubble, and thus that the game would end up here, right now?

Yeah. Just keep fucking bending your own fucking rules to make the square pegs fit into round holes.

-Cerb

Reasonably Rational · Post Post #12463 (ISO) » Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:23 pm

What have we done for town? We pointed out exactly how to win with no escape routes for anyone. The only reason it didn't happen is because Grapes freaking LIED to conftown/gem to get released and then lurked out the day. I mean ... we're working out and constantly adjusting a plan as people think of flaws, constantly tinkering so it was always a town win at the end, and he's busy being obvscum ... and you're asking US what we did that's town?

As for your wall of mostly the same shit from 3 day phases ago:

I can answer all of those and even show you where you are stuck in confirmation bias. I have two questions for you before I invest any further time, because at this point you appear to be dead set on lynching us and losing with us rather than risking losing TO us. That's the only thing I can think of that explains the cognitive dissonance displayed in your huge wall. It is

precisely

because we know each other fairly well that I can level that criticism.

1.) Why have you assigned us an absurd burden of proficiency? You seem to think that we are infallible and should never ever make mistakes or forget things. Even if I hadn't had a computer issue partway through the game, I cannot imagine why you would hold us to such a ridiculous standard.

1a.) You DO realize that Titus stole our roleblock ability early on day 4, right? You are basing a large portion of your suspicion on the fact that you believe we would have asked a question about an ability that was permanently removed from us. That's well beyond reachy.

2.) You seem to have made up your mind. Despite a combined literally 30+ hours of doing what you've asked (while Shiro gave you a tiny post and came to the conclusion that we're town with the same info you claim makes us look scummy.), you claim we're not co-operating with you. This also seems like cognitive dissonance. Now you're asking a tremendous amount more time from us, in a very compressed amount of time because of the looming deadline. I'm not convinced that there's anything we can do to make you realize we're town, and nothing in that post makes me believe you are going to do anything other than hammer us. Frankly, that's a dick move (and after reading that wall, I feel like your plan for today was to see how much of our time you could waste, which is unbelievably rude and seriously pisses me off). Can you convince me in any way that you are actually open minded here?

Like ... we've spent a great deal of time in good faith. Cerberus went post by post through PTs where other people aren't here to contradict what he says and directly quoted everything,

even things which don't look great, like the fact that the early pressure on us made us feel like voting SC would actually hurt the wagon, but you say is us trying to 'have our cake and eat it too' (nice attempt at humor)

. Like ... and then you outright just tell us you

haven't even bothered

to look into other slots. That wall you made? That's you going through the thread specifically trying to find anything to make yourself feel justified when you hammer us and we flip town. There's not a shred of honest evaluation in there.

If you were actually being intellectually honest, you would have looked into the other slots first and decided what you thought about them.

In the end, all you have in that big old wall of conf bias and cognitive dissonance is a bunch of "cover your ass" so you can feel/claim you are justified in hammering us, and you've ignored the largest reason you should realize you're wrong if you believe we're scum: you're still alive. And the cognitive dissonance on display is staggering on that point, because you are saddling us with the burden of perfect proficiency, but then positing that we would engineer a scenario where we have to convince you to change your mind about a game long death tunnel on us.

I mean ... for fuck's sake ... you know

from experience

that I respect you enough to kill you and talk my way out of why you're dead. You watched me do it in SMITE. You really think we invested the absurd amount of time we have this game and decided "Hey ... let's leave Mastin alive so we can lose."? Really? Either you believe we are so good that we should have this absurd burden of proficiency applied to us, or you don't. You can't have your cake and eat it too (See what I did there?).

Oh ... and for the record: the only person who took an action that directly helped town all game was Xkfyu, who killed Skybird. You had a fucking GUILTY on TWIE and tried to argue against lynching him, and in literally the MOST staggering display of cognitive dissonance (and that's saying something), you have called us (me, specifically) scummy because I gave reads on like day 2 or something where I said that TWIE is a mid game player and usually lurks early, and I wanted to make sure he would get pressured if he didn't engage later. While you were busy trying to explain away a fucking investigative guilty, I was busy telling people I was town reading to make sure to go after him. But somehow I'm the scummy one?

I'm going to stop now. I like you and I consider you a friend and I'm not trying to just take a shit on you and ruin that. I'm just extremely exasperated. Especially because it's super obvious that you have just wasted our fucking time this day phase and haven't actually given any honest intellectual evaluation at all.

~D

P-Edit: Caught another example of just how far your head is up your ass. You haven't even read our posts. Like just a couple posts ago I pointed out that if Grapes is town, then it follows the only thing he lied about is when he could do his event and we should assume A50 is town, or else stress would have plummeted. Like ... I laid out the possibilities and explicitly pointed that out, and you think we missed it. Like ... I don't even know what to say when your post displays ignorance of the most simple things we've said today. I could

maybe

understand if you missed something in the alliance paraphrases, but really?

P-Edit 2: Wow. You managed to actually legitimately piss cerberus off. That's an achievement ... I guess.

Reasonably Rational · Post Post #12464 (ISO) » Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:31 pm

In post 12462, Reasonably Rational wrote:Actually, also, how the fuck are our posts today preplanned? We prefucking planned for grapes to use that fucking ability to remove A50, and for random to not use his claimed bubble, and thus put us into 3p lylo? We, the people who, by your own analysis, are ONLY scum if there's just one scum left, and thus couldn't have organized shit with grapes, anticipated that he would do that, and that random wouldn't bubble, and thus that the game would end up here, right now?

Yeah. Just keep fucking bending your own fucking rules to make the square pegs fit into round holes.

-Cerb

Oh, right, and we also performed that fantastic feat of play prediction while simultaneously deliberately failing MULTIPLE kills, AND wasting what appeared to be a day kill at ANY point prior to the time when it would automatically win us the game, AND thus setting up a teammate to be killed, AND utilizing an event to give THE PERSON WHO LITERALLY WROTE THE GUIDE TO BEING A COP a fucking cop check.

And then we rounded it all off by letting the conftown who has been scumreading us for MONTHS into the endgame with us.

Yeah. Right.

Fucking researching my ass.

-Cerb

Reasonably Rational · Post Post #12465 (ISO) » Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:45 pm

Here's what really bothers me (and Cerb too ... he's been ranting at me for like 2 solid hours). The day started and I looked at the situation and the first thought I had was "GG scum" because I had literally 0% hope that you would actually take the time to evaluate the game on an intellectually honest level. But then you asked for us to spend a CONSIDERABLE amount of time and effort because, you said, you wanted to actually do your fucking job as conftown.

Then you proceeded to do jack shit for the whole day phase. Know how I know that? You haven't even bothered to look at other slots flavor, let alone dig any deeper, as you admit yourself. All you did was regurgitate your already debunked bullshit and look for things in what we did in good faith that you could twist into justification for what you had already decided to do.

That, I'm afraid, is something I won't be forgiving you for. You knew this entire day phase what you were going to do, and you decided to be spiteful (for whatever reason) and had us give up real life DAYS of our lives while you never had any intention of actually putting in the effort to figure things out. No effort and you're going to just lynch us, so why the FUCK did you waste so much of our time when you HAD TO KNOW there was no fucking way you were going to actually honestly do the work?

THAT is what pisses me off. If you had actually engaged and honestly evaluated everything and there was even ANY evidence of that at all, then that would be one thing. You haven't done jack shit except for waste our time, and that's just ... frankly the only word I can think that fits is reprehensible. Even if you feel 100% sure we're scum, you don't fuck around with our real lives and demand days of our time. That's so fucking despicable I can't even think of a way to express myself.

~D

Reasonably Rational · Post Post #12466 (ISO) » Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:50 pm

You know, the sad thing is I know exactly how this ends. You come back, you read me turning my filter off and telling you the shit that I normally just keep to my pt with Drixx, and you call it "AtE". You call it "scum flailing". You IGNORE the content, and do what you've done all day...figure out how to make the new information fit the narrative you've created.

-Cerb

Reasonably Rational · Post Post #12467 (ISO) » Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:52 pm

Actually, you know what, thank you mastin.

Thank you for making that post BEFORE I decided to spend my evening trying to get you all the information you asked for, and summarizing the game, and all that bullshit.

Thank you for only fucking us for 11 days instead of 14.

-Cerb

mastin2 · Post Post #12468 (ISO) » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:59 pm

In post 12459, Reasonably Rational wrote:Would you like individual answers to the post above?

Individual answers would probably be best, yes. Easier to read, easier to have engagement on, easier to have dialog with, which was the whole fucking point of me bringing this up in the first place.

My intention with the post was to give you my perspective, my viewpoint, my problems, my thoughts. Having responses to each, having individual thoughts of your own, basically giving the counters and the alternative perspectives to each. I laid my cards on the table, so to speak, on why you've been a scumread. I'm looking in responses here for you to give me reason why not to feel this way.

mastin2 · Post Post #12469 (ISO) » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:28 pm

In post 12460, Reasonably Rational wrote:you should note that I had to go through that entire pt
post by post
and that with nobody left alive to contradict me. there's absolutely no reason why scum!me would have left that bit she views as damning in there

The problem is I asked you to paraphrase the PT.
You had two options, then.
You could lie, and hope that your lie would go undetected...
...Or you could tell the truth.
You have no reason not to tell the truth if you have no reason to believe that I would view the content as suspicious.

And you've insisted the whole game your PTs were town. You've basically insisted the whole game that every alliance you had was proof that you were not scum. So you have reason to believe that showing this, paraphrasing these topics as I have asked you to do, would be demonstrating a town alignment.

This applies regardless of your alignment.

even she had a fucking guilty on a scum slot and tried to argue against lynching them

Trying to discredit me rather than actually fucking engage me is a pretty moronic move regardless of your alignment by the way. Do this, and you get voted on policy alone. I did NOT post the wall as intent to lynch you. I posted the wall specifically so that you could respond to it. Specifically so you could

address my fucking concerns

.

Saying shit like this?
Not addressing my concerns.

Not ot mention the fact that her entire fucking wall is clearly her looking at the entire game trying to find justification for her belief that we're scum

And again.
This was the fucking problem I raised with your slot.
Discrediting, rather than.
Simply.
TALKING.

I asked for you to talk to me.

This is not you talking to me.

otherwise, why the fuck isn't she wallposting about shiro

Because I haven't done the same amount of research into Shiro as I have for you. You think I don't have a section for why Shiro is scum in my notes?
I do.

You know why I haven't presented it?
Because I haven't had the time to do you both.
Also, I was under the impression engaging you with this would not only be more important, but also, more productive, than the equivalent Shiro version. Why? Because you two should be able to have a long conversation with me about these points. You two should be able to engage me on many things. You two should be able to give me a long conversation.

The equivalent Shiro version might get me some Shiro engagement. I'd expect much of it would be the same as what Shiro has given thusfar, though: "I get you see this, but I'm town tho :/
I don't know what to say, how to show it, what to give you." That is what I expect from Shiro if/when I present the points for Shiro being scum. Is that helpful? Maybe marginally so, but realistically speaking, not very much, now, is it?

In contrast, showing my problems with you, in one post, all at once, would give you time to understand exactly where I am coming from. And from knowing exactly where I am coming from, it would allow you to know where I have gone wrong, and to address me on where I did in fact go wrong.

I have made it clear from the beginning--I want to be shown wrong.
I want to be proven wrong.
I want you to tell me where I am mistaken to have held my belief.

Yet instead of doing this. Instead of doing the simple communication task you always do in your towngames with me.

You are showing this "fuck you" attitude.
You are not showing me anything, except hostility.
I presented things with intent of a dialog. Of engagement. Of asking you questions, and having you provide answers.

That's not something which should be hard!

why the fuck is the FIRST thign she looks into us

Why the fuck would you not be the first thing I looked into?
You've been my focus for days.
So engaging you. Getting these points forward. Talking to you. Addressing you. Is my top concern.

also note that she missed DGB's forced roleblock/role steal thing when talking about scum ways to control town

And I also omitted DGB being ascetic, too, now, didn't I?
DGB to me is almost a nonfactor. While DGB was scum-aligned, it'd take very specific circumstances for DGB to come into contact/communication with her scumteam. As a result, she would have almost zero way prior to then for actually sabotaging the town.

oh, and the fact that we have a long history of not being as stupid as everyone else is in varsoon games

Yeah! So why the fuck were you this "stupid" this game? Everything you've done has helped scum. You've claimed it hasn't. You haven't shown me how it hasn't. In spite of that being one of my main problems.

You, if town, have made MANY misplays this game. MANY. Plural. Not one, not two. MANY.

You, if scum, have played smart. Smarter than basically any other player in the game, to have reached this far.

and not assuming that similar roles mean people are fake claiming

Yeah I'm assuming people are not fakeclaiming. I have good reason to. Every single player, town or scum, has basically been truthfully claiming their entire role the entire game, save scum-specific details. Scum aren't going to lie and claim they have a power they do not. They might lie by omission and not claim a power they

have

...but they're not going to tell a bold-faced lie about having powers they don't. It's possible that scum would lie about the EXACT mechanic of their role. (grapes is a possibility for doing exactly that.) This much is true! But about abilities in general, fuck no, every player town or scum is going to tell the truth.

plus, farsides role was QUITE different from ours. She could just target people and block them, we had to talk people into allying us and then allying someone else

It being a different type of roleblock is irrelevant. You had a roleblock. farside had a roleblock. Did you ask about the nature of farside's roleblock? Did you ask about the nature of your own roleblock? It doesn't matter that your abilities aren't exact duplicates. That's not the issue. The issue is that they're close enough that a town-you should have known about the mechanics involved with a roleblock action, asked Varsoon about any doubt, then asked farside about hers, and understood her clearly.

Oh, and you also need to note the fact that we DID NOT MISS THE FACT THAT GRAPES POWER CLEARS A50 IN THE EVENT THAT GRAPES IS TOWN
we fucking specifically mention that in the post immediatley prior
what I DO fuck up is rmeoving the A50/Shiro team as a possibility due to that same fact
but I DID NOT miss that mechanical point

What you're saying is "I didn't miss the mechanic even though I totally missed the mechanic".
So yes. You did.

mastin2 · Post Post #12470 (ISO) » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:38 pm

In post 12461, Reasonably Rational wrote:Actually. Fuck off and just fucking lynch us instead of wasting everyone's time pretending to actually evaluate the game.

If I do, that'll be YOUR choice for YOU refusing to engage me.

I raised those points NOT to lynch you.
I raised those points to have you fucking engage me on my issues with your slot.

I raised those points specifically so that I could have you respond.
I raised those points specifically so that you could increase my doubt.
I raised those points specifically so that you could make me rethink assumptions I have made.
I raised those points specifically so that I would have a chance of fucking finally overcoming any lingering doubt I have.
I raised those points specifically so that any and all bias on my part would be washed away.
I raised those points specifically so that you could show me why I am wrong.
I raised those points specifically so that I would be given a better idea of the gamestate, off of your response to them.

If your response were to do the rational thing and DO WHAT I FUCKING ASKED YOU TO DO an simply respond to them.
If your response were to do the reasonable thing and point out all the reasons why my logic is flawed, why I am going down the wrong path.
Then

I would fucking listen to you

because that is what I set out to have done.

But if your response to my points is to go, "Fuck you"?

You have only yourselves to blame, because I am giving you every opportunity.
I did not vote you at daystart.
I did not vote you when you claimed your roleblock, something I saw as a scum ability.
I did not vote you when you began your paraphrases.
I did not vote you in spite of your bad answers to most of my questions to you.
I did not vote you when raising all of those points.
I am still not voting you, even at this very moment, right here and now.

Because I am desperately hoping. Praying. You will give me what I want and what I need.
I am trying not to vote you.

I am trying to listen to the idea of you being town.

Yet if you refuse to fucking engage me, what can I do?

I am not okay losing to you.
I am okay losing to Almost50.
I'm not sure if I'm okay losing to Shiro/grapes.

But I want to be okay losing to you. And I want to not be okay losing to Shiro/grapes.
Engaging me civilly. Like I have to you. (None of my questions were screaming. None of my questions were ranting. They were just questions. Lots and lots of questions, which I want actual damn answers to!) Would be a great way to make that come true.

Engaging me with profanities laden with how shitty I am?

Yeah, not so much.

mastin2 · Post Post #12471 (ISO) » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:46 pm

In post 12462, Reasonably Rational wrote:We prefucking planned for grapes to use that fucking ability to remove A50, and for random to not use his claimed bubble, and thus put us into 3p lylo?

Given
-randomidget explicitly was listening to you, and
-You specifically told randomidget NOT to bubble?

Yes, you could plan for randomidget not bubbling.
Given that grapes wasn't flat-out siteflaking (even if grapes wasn't online at the given time yesterday ended), it wouldn't be hard to predict grapes would use his ability as soon as they were able to. This would remove either yourself (in which case, you can't post), Almost50 (as was the case), or Shiro. In your post, there are a grand total of three mentions of Almost50 and Shiro by name. Those mentions could easily be swapped around and your post would be EXACTLY the same. As in, if grapes had removed Shiro, you could swap three name mentions, and the post would be literally identical to what it is now. It is vague enough to apply to either person. That's part of the reason it sounds preplanned!

You're smart. You're also thorough. You would be able to ask the mod any questions you needed during the night. You would be able to make simple predictions: randomidget not bubbling (because you fucking TOLD him not to), and then grapes using their ability immediately. These were not difficult predictions to make. In fact, it didn't even have to be at daystart. grapes could use the ability midway through the day, and then you would be able to post the exact same post as what you wrote in 12393.

Reasonably Rational · Post Post #12472 (ISO) » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:00 pm

You don't get it. We already dumped every spare moment of our daily lives into engaging with you, and all you did with that engagement was look for things to supplement your previous death tunnel walls. I wasn't kidding when I said I firmly believe that you came into today with the plan to just see how much time you could get us to waste. If there were any evidence of honest engagement from you, I would give you the benefit of the doubt. There simply isn't.

I asked you to tell me why on earth either of us should believe that going through that massive wall of shit we have already responded to before (for the most part) and talking to you will have any effect whatsoever. Still waiting for that answer.

~D

P.S. - I'm going to bed. I will check when I wake and see if you actually answer my question. There's not much benefit of the doubt left from my end. Read what I said. I meant it. I believe you intentionally cost us the bulk of our free time for the past 10 days when you knew you didn't have the time or intention to actually honestly engage. Nothing you have said or posted contradicts that theory. You cannot possibly understand, and I would be the worst sort of person if I explained it. Just know that you could not possibly have picked a better strategy to hurt me if you spent years experimenting.

Reasonably Rational · Post Post #12473 (ISO) » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:25 pm

In post 12470, mastin2 wrote:
In post 12461, Reasonably Rational wrote:Actually. Fuck off and just fucking lynch us instead of wasting everyone's time pretending to actually evaluate the game.

I am not okay losing to you.
I am okay losing to Almost50.
I'm not sure if I'm okay losing to Shiro/grapes.

This is the problem.

You AREN'T evaluating things objectively, and that's on YOU, not us.

It's not on us to teach you how to be objective.

You shouldn't be "okay" losing to fucking anyone.

That shit above is WHY you approached things the way you did, all your rationalizing aside. You know we're town, but you're too afraid that you're wrong and "not okay" losing to us, so you'd rather just put on blinders and lose with us rather than risk losing to us.

With regards to my previous posts: No fucking shit. None of that was intended to convince anyone of anything. I simply had no desire to deal with what I view as your bullshit in the cordial fashion I would normally approach a series of questions like that, even if they're incredibly inane questions.

I am also going to sleep, and then I'm going to have work. I won't have anything substantial to say in here for at least 16 hours. If we're still alive at that point, I'll see how I'm feeling.

Before I go though, could you do me a favor and consider that, if scum!me was able to accurately predict that set of actions...how does today play out with random, who you just said was listening to me, in your place?

Mull that over.

-Cerb

mastin2 · Post Post #12474 (ISO) » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:34 pm

In post 12463, Reasonably Rational wrote:What have we done for town? We pointed out exactly how to win with no escape routes for anyone. The only reason it didn't happen is because Grapes freaking LIED to conftown/gem to get released and then lurked out the day.

One, that was my idea before it was yours, and two:
I asked you what you have done that actually WAS protown.
Not "protown in theory".
Protown in practice. Protown in results. Protown in actual, provable game evidence: "We did this. This helped the town."
You've given me plenty of, "We did this, which would have helped the town if not for..."!
Plenty of that!
I didn't ask for you to give me another fucking example of that.

I asked you to give me what you have done that was ACTUALLY town.

1.) Why have you assigned us an absurd burden of proficiency?

Oh, I dunno.

In post 12460, Reasonably Rational wrote:oh, and the fact that we have a long history of not being as stupid as everyone else is in varsoon games

...How about

your own fucking hydra head

?

I agree with what Cerb said there--you have a long history of not being as stupid as everyone else is in Varsoon games.
Yet your play here has, every step of the way, ended up benefiting the scum.
So I'm forced to either believe
A: You were utterly incompetent this game, OR,
B: Simply you were smart scum.

Yes you're not infallible. You make mistakes in games.
You do not make this consistent level of misplay after misplay after misplay.
And when you make a mistake, you own up to it. If you make a bad judgment call, you will admit to having made it.
Not once this game have you admitted to making a mistake.

Again. It's always been someone else's fault. From Yume to Titus to farside to Fuzzy to Almost50 to grapes. Always the blame is on someone else. Not on you.

I even asked you: at what point does your play exceed what could be within reasonable doubt? At what point does your play exceed what could come plausibly from town?
The paranoia you have shown. The amount of bad calls you have made. The number of times you have shifted blame.

At what point do you expect me to say that's beyond you having a shitty towngame?
Because for me you've gone past it--that simple. This is not the towngame I know from you. You make excuses for it. You shift attention elsewhere. You insist that the problem is on my end. You insist that there's no possible reason I could have a justifiable reason to hold these beliefs. You insist that I must fundamentally be wrong because I must be fundamentally biased beyond all salvation. You insist that you have not once done anything wrong this game.

And yet I've asked you what you've done right, and received nothing but, "Well, this would have worked, but..." as a response, when that's the whole fucking problem. It's shifting attention elsewhere, and insisting the problem isn't on your end.

1a.) You DO realize that Titus stole our roleblock ability early on day 4, right? You are basing a large portion of your suspicion on the fact that you believe we would have asked a question about an ability that was permanently removed from us. That's well beyond reachy.

Apparently you didn't read because I explicitly acknowledge this.
You had the ability prior to Titus stealing it--why didn't you ask about it then?
You knew about how the ability worked even after Titus stole it--it was part of your original PM, and just because you no longer had it, would V deny you answers? I'm pretty positive the answer's fuck no. So you could have asked about the ability you STARTED with even though you no longer possessed it. You started with an ability. That ability was relevant to farside's ability. You did nothing even though you no longer had it?

That doesn't sound like the Reasonably Rational I know as town. The Reasonably Rational I know as town would ask about ALL mechanics--past, present, or potential future. Asking about hypotheticals. Asking about every aspect of a given role. In public, in private. Asking every question to a player of interest. And that's the problem. You're using the loss of the ability as justification for not having asked about it...yet that isn't a town-RR mindset. A town-RR has MORE REASON THAN EVER after losing the ability to ask about it, specifically BECAUSE they no longer can use it, and it's still relevant to the game.

2.) You seem to have made up your mind.

If I had made up my mind, I'd have cast a vote.

That's the thing you don't fucking seem to be getting.

I am asking to be shown wrong.

I am asking for a DIALOG.

I've been asking for it for days.

I've been asking for this sort of conversation, this full-blown talk, heart-to-heart, subject-to-subject, about the entirety of every issue I have, for days. Because I am looking to be shown wrong. I am looking for evidence which runs contrary to the evidence I have gathered. I am looking for facts which throw into doubt the conclusions I have come to. Yet you've given me nothing of the sort.

Now you're asking a tremendous amount more time from us, in a very compressed amount of time because of the looming deadline.

And I am truly sorry for this.

If you want to win, you need to put that time and effort in.

I am putting time and effort in.

I am wracking my head over the details.
Trying to make sense of the game, every step of the way.

But I can only do so much.
I can only see certain things.
I think of the game in certain terms.
I am only human. So I can't do everything I want.
And I can't put in all the time I want.
And I can't put in all the effort I wish I could.
I cut corners. Out of necessity. That leads to sloppy work. That leads to a conclusion which is less than ideal. That leads to flawed assumptions on my part.

And that's EXACTLY why I am asking you to do this level of work.

Because I need you to do it.

I need it done.

If you don't do it, then you would in fact lose.
You can fault me for that, but that's just the way things are.

We are on a tight schedule.
A very tight deadline.
I'd have preferred to have posted these earlier.
And for that matter, I would have preferred to have posted these after more was given--after I had done more reading. After you had paraphrased all of your PTs rather than 2.5 of them. I would have preferred all of those things and so much more.
But the deadline is what it is. And so, the situation requires what it requires: the best I can possibly offer you.

The best I can give you.
The best I can offer you.

Is to show you every problem I've had with you.
And allow you to go over it and put to rest, put to bed, as many of those concerns as is possible.

That is what I need.

Can you convince me in any way that you are actually open minded here?

Because you're still alive.
Simple as that.

I wanted this game ended in 2016.
I've wanted this game over so that I could make reference to it.
I've wanted this game just fucking done.
I've wanted this game to be over so that it would finally be something I wouldn't need to spend more time on, because I've spent too damn much time on it already--and it still isn't enough!
I've wanted this game to be over because it's stressful, because it's demanding, because it's hard, because it requires time and effort.
And yet in spite of me wanting the game over.

And in spite of me scumreading you.

I still haven't voted you.

That's all the proof you need.

I

want

to be proven wrong.

Yet you're not looking to prove me wrong. You've been looking to insult me. You've been looking to project on me. To cast images on me. To make assumptions about me. To demean me. That's not what I mean when I say I want to be proven wrong. I mean I want my points to be proven false. Not redirected. Not avoided. Not deflected. "Oh, like YOU are any better than us!", or some similar insult. I want you to actually engage my issues, and show me why they are not valid.

I am sorry if that is a lot of work.

But I've put a lot more than 30 hours into this lylo alone. It hasn't all shown. But it's there.

If you were actually being intellectually honest, you would have looked into the other slots first and decided what you thought about them.

And I intend to! At least intended to! I'm running short on time. It was something I wanted to do. But I ultimately decided that giving you this first was better. Because I can continue to do my work on my own after having posted it. See your responses to it. See your replies to it. And from those, and from my own work, better refine it.

You're acting like what I said was the end-all, be-all, but again.
I haven't fucking voted you.

If I actually was sure you were scum.
If I actually was confident you were scum!

You'd be dead.

But I'm not. I have my doubts. I KNOW I haven't done the research. And it's BECAUSE I know I haven't done the research that I have those doubts! My knowledge is imperfect. My knowledge is incomplete. But you dodging the issues. You dodging my points. Isn't doing you any favors!

You really think we invested the absurd amount of time we have this game and decided "Hey ... let's leave Mastin alive so we can lose."?

No. I think I'm alive because scum expect me to vote wrong.
The thing is. Contrary to what you insist.
I don't see this as being alignment-indicative for anyone.
Almost50-grapes would be almost assured I'd have a lynch. On Shiro, on you, doesn't matter. The idea of a no-lynch would be incredibly difficult if not impossible for me to accept, and so, they would believe I'd lynch and hand them the win. They would be correct, as I am comfortable losing to an Almost50-grapes scumteam. I am comfortable taking all the hate, all the blame for it, because I am reading them as being the most unlikely of the not-literally-impossible combinations. If that is a wrong read, it is my fault.

Shiro-grapes knows that I have held a tunnel on you the last few days.

Yet you're pretending you have no reason to bring me to lylo. You're pretending like the idea you are is impossible. You have just as much reason to, because you unlike Shiro know that I am prone to doubt. Shiro wouldn't know how much I have been going over it. And over it. And over it. Shiro would have no idea that I am constantly hating myself for the level of uncertainty, the level of doubt I have. But you two would.

Furthermore, you act as if you had much of a choice. You needed to kill randomidget. If randomidget lived, then there was the risk of an entirely different gamestate existing today. We could lynch, and then bubble in the unconfirmed, giving us two lynches rather than just the one. randomidget also needed to die if Shiro-grapes was the scumteam, sure. (Almost50-grapes, not so much.) This much is true. Yet if you killed me, then it'd be proof Shiro wasn't scum. Because Shiro wouldn't know I would doubt my scumread on you. And randomidget might not know I would doubt my scumread on you. And between those factors, my death over randomidget's would be evidence enough where you would fall under heavy scrutiny.

The kill was always going to be randomidget. This, regardless of who is scum. (Though I suppose Almost50-grapes has the least incentive to do so, this is also the scumteam I find least likely anyway.) Because the scum, regardless of who they are, expect me to vote wrong. Shiro because Shiro doesn't know me. And you, specifically because you DO. It is specifically because you are competent players that you would leave me alive. It is specifically because you know I would doubt myself that you would keep me alive. (SMITE is an example of me having a townread, which I would have come to doubt--you killed me for it. This game is the opposite: I have a scumread, which I have come to doubt. You would want me kept alive because of it.)