Personally I think it tips the scales too much towards scum if they are so many. Again Peridot could have assisted scum instead of joining crystal gems. Grapes having the same role is nonsensical and even if he did, why join scum? They weren't on the winning side.
To me:
shiro you are a charmer you were obvscum but for some reason people just wouldn't eliminate you ~Antihero
About me:
I stg this is how conversations with Lucifer go. ~Papa Zito
In post 12500, Shiro wrote:Personally I think it tips the scales too much towards scum if they are so many. Again Peridot could have assisted scum instead of joining crystal gems. Grapes having the same role is nonsensical and even if he did, why join scum? They weren't on the winning side.
Two points. First of all, I'm more inclined to believe that Grapes was always scum and is Yellow Diamond. Second, there is an explicit difference between 3p that can join a faction, and 3p that can be recruited to a faction.
The fact is we simply do not know, mechanically, how Varsoon chose to balance things. What we DO know is that we (most likely) had a 5(because I can't imagine circumstances under which someone with Xkfyu's role would choose to remain a survivor that early in the game, when they could join a faction of what were likely powerful roles) man masonry, along with two nearly pure IC's, and a conditional IC that could have duplicated the pure IC's power and turned it into another IC at worst, or a guilty at best...on top of a large number of other significant powers, including at least three kills.
At seven scum, there were more potential IC's in this game than scum, and barring any extra kills being hidden by scum, at least as many extra kills possessed by town as scum have displayed...and that's not counting the bubbles OR the extra kills Fuzzy could gain over time OR the kills random could give out. And keep in mind that normally, all those vigs would be a double edged sword...but with the large number of IC's, those kills were nearly as likely to hit scum as town, rather than being significantly more likely to hit town than scum as is normal.
I don't really understand why you feel that a seventh scum is unlikely, rather than something we should expect.
In post 12500, Shiro wrote:Personally I think it tips the scales too much towards scum if they are so many. Again Peridot could have assisted scum instead of joining crystal gems. Grapes having the same role is nonsensical and even if he did, why join scum? They weren't on the winning side.
Ewww... this post seriously just made it nearly 50/50 in my mind who is paired with Grapes. My gut (and a small voice says my ego/pride) says that it's still more probable that it's A50 + Grapes, for all the reasons I already related. But then you show up and try to argue that Grapes is town (with an overwhelming mountain of evidence that he's scum) and instead of countering the scum case against him or making an argument why he is town in spite of the damning actions he took ... you come with flavor as your only argument ... in a game where Varsoon went way out of his way to warn against using flavor as a primary tool to figure things out?
I mean ... the one doubt in my mind about A50 + Grapes is that A50 was arguing against releasing Grapes.
No. I think it still has to be A50 + Grapes. If you were scum, I think you would have hammered No Lynch and won (unless you are somehow solo scum, which requires believing MoI misunderstood Varsoon's answers to his questions, which I rate is exceptionally unlikely).
And in the time it took me to write this post, my mind thought through it and yeah. It's Grapes + A50.
I will give you the point that with the huge number of conf towns it significally makes it easier for bubble and vigs to hit scum but it still leaves a gapping day 2/3 scum win by a mere miscalculation, which I find to be too much. Let alone that scum had an event that could kill multiple town people in the clsuter.
P,edit
I did not argue flavour but the mechanics of peridot. She could cummunicate with scum with her direct line with a diamond and instead of ever joining Crystal gems win as 3p with them.
To me:
shiro you are a charmer you were obvscum but for some reason people just wouldn't eliminate you ~Antihero
About me:
I stg this is how conversations with Lucifer go. ~Papa Zito
In post 12503, Shiro wrote:I will give you the point that with the huge number of conf towns it significally makes it easier for bubble and vigs to hit scum but it still leaves a gapping day 2/3 scum win by a mere miscalculation, which I find to be too much. Let alone that scum had an event that could kill multiple town people in the clsuter.
P,edit
I did not argue flavour but the mechanics of peridot. She could cummunicate with scum with her direct line with a diamond and instead of ever joining Crystal gems win as 3p with them.
That's not a very strong argument though. In both Space Dandy 2 and Bloodborne scum could have functionally won the game on day 2 or 3. Neither game played out that way, but the fact that Varsoon has shown he's willing to risk that in the past means it's not something we should discount.
You also need to consider that in a perfectly played town game, we could have won by D3 or something, if all the abilities hit properly and we utilized our stress management mechanics to enable abilities perfectly.
Skybird: I actually have no recollection of my early game interactions with skybird. I don't recall ever saying that she was probtown or anything because of the alliance with Steven, but Drixx may have?
Umm... we were Steven in the first SU game. Our big thing was that we could IC on day 5. On day 3 we had two people and ourselves thrown into a permanent alliance. (Mastin and Xtoxm). We then lynched a scum that day who had strongman on season finale and so we actually ended up using the same logic. We concluded that Varsoon would not have given scum knowledge of who we were so they could just turn around and murder us the next night without us having any reliable way to avoid it (there were two ways for us to avoid it: luck into lynching the strongman before first finale (this is what happened) or another town slot had to be both alive, allied with us, have a 1-shot per game ability available and USE it to commute us and them out of the game on the finale night). We were so certain that it made no sense to make an IC and then have it get killed 99% of the time before it could ever become IC that we concluded scum would not have been given access to our identity.
Now ... Varsoon does like to change things up as a mod so I wouldn't go so far as to say Skybird automatically must be scum ... but I sure as hell am not going to assume town after what happened in the original game.
Long story short: farside was being widely scum read but we put together a case for why they were almost certainly town. We were running a reaction test on them before we unvoted and moved on to plan we had stated. The plan we had stated called for us lynching Grapes (claimed miller) that day, someone else the next day and the final scum the day after.
Grapes, ignoring our really strong case for why farside must be town decided to hammer farside and end the day rather than take his lynch, which he knew he had to eat because of being and claiming miller. His action took us from guaranteed win to a last day where we had someone who had been kind of super trollish (think firebringer, only WAY worse) plus our two day 3 alliance people still alive.
Since we assumed scum would not have been gifted knowledge of who we were, that really strongly influenced our thinking and we ended up lynching the super-troll player, and Xtoxm was the last scum.
So yeah ... ummm. Please don't make unfounded assumptions. Please.
^Drixx post. "Skybird could be scum for the ability, or not, let's not assume anything off of role".
I have absolutely no feelings about Skybird at all, which is basically how I always feel about her posting. I'll look at her ISO after I finish SC's, but she's generally fairly low impact on the game so I rarely actually ISO dive her.
^Cerb head. "I have no opinion of her".
In post 2629, Reasonably Rational wrote:Pedit: we used that same flawed logic to lose SU 1(plus some other stuff, but that was what ultimately drove the lylo mislynch), except we had EVEN MORE REASON to think scum wouldn't possibly be given confirmation of Stevens identify than you do, and we were STILL wrong.
Don't be us. Don't close your mind to the possibility. Evaluate Skybirds play on its own merit.
^Cerb post, saying: "Evaluate Skybird on her own merit".
First three posts are fluff, then an ally request.
300: willing to ally with Yume. 318: Questions FB about having mastin who he townreads in his lynch pool. Tells him to leave Yume alone. 337: At Farsides suggestion, invites Foxbird to ally with her, responds to Drixx's confusion and shows willingness to ally with RR as well. 353: Asks CoolDog if he's read the thread and informs him of the ally state for mastin and RR. 445: FB responds to her 318 in 323, saying mastin is in his lynch pool for annoyance, and Skybird asks him what's annoying him. 578: Farside feels town to her. 673: RR null, KC and mastin town, CoolDog scum. What reasons did you have for the KC and CoolDog reads at this time? 1012: Calls Xkfyu's 716 "sucking up to OWK". Because they voted Creature? Because of the exact verbiage they used? Why exactly is this sucking up? Asks for an explanation of OWK's town read on CoolDog. Consistent with their scumread on him, but that read is still unexplained. 1018: MIsreads OWK's 1014 explaining their CoolDog read as feeling bad in their guts, without any evidence in thread(which is a weird conclusion to arrive at, sounds like the sort of thing that make someone null, not "might be town") as a read on FB, and asks if he's ballsy enough to be scum and call himself such all game. 1044: 1019 OWK clarifies that the answer previously was about CoolDog, Skybird agrees regarding the CoolDog read and reasoning, and calls it strange that CD asked mastin to ally after she said she was never going to ally with anyone. 1049: Suggests snarky may be "trying too hard" as a devil's advocate, and disagrees that snarky is "so town". How town is Snarky then Skybird? 1502: Votes NC. Why did you do this? Whose points against him swayed you? 1585: Asks SC about his town read on NC. Consistent. 1825: Confirms that the blank vote on Snarky did not come from her slot. 1855: Gut town read on RR, willing to lynch DGB(because of the empty iso, or because of the bad reason/lack of reason for the vote on RR?). Questions SC's justification for the townread on NC. Good questions and points. 1925: Cakez is a scum lean. 2192: Willing to ally farside22, questions her on her SC townread. 2223: Agrees with the points everyone else has been making about SC, reiterates the question from 2192. 2249: Votes Shiro with Farside, with no reason given. What were your thoughts here? What are they now? 2416: Asks shiro for his reads. 2434: In response to Shiro's ansewr to 2416 "going back and forth on KC too, asks why he scumreads Mcmenno, doesn't have any thing to say about any of his other reads. Why didn't you ask him why he scumread A50?
Nothing of note past this point.
Super minor town read overall. I see attempts to put things together when she's here, even if she's not doing it too much.
^Cerb post. Holds Skybird as a minor townread, basically nulltown. And here's the funny thing, Cerb.
The post in question WASN'T a Drixx post.
Your next mention of Skybird after having her as a minor townread?
In post 6053, Reasonably Rational wrote:Town/unlikely to be aligned with scum:(important distinction)
Titus
Klingoncelt
mastin2
Yume
Farside22
Xkfyu(this is because of a realization I had about the potential meaning of some things he's said which I won't be revealing)
Firebringer <<bubbled by gems in a way that could have resulted in his death apparently, but did not. This implies certain things to me.
Skybird <<< PT with steven
killthestory <<<fake IC claim
So yeah. The people above are unlynchable yo.
...An unexplained bump up to absolutely unlynchable. The given reason? "She has a PT with Steven". The very fucking thing the above posts I quoted from BOTH HEADS warned against doing multiple times. Why did Skybird, overnight, jump from "minor town, off of play" to "unlynchable town, from claim", when your earlier stance was to NOT clear her off of that?
The setup came together in my mind in the intervening time, and it simply seemed unlikely that Varsoon would essentially hang a scum slot out to dry. By giving Steven PT's with two individuals early in the game, and conftowning one of them to Steven, the other one would naturally be suspected simply for the symmetry. I expected that to be an instance of Varsoon subverting our expectations and setting us up to reduce the power of the steven role as a communication hub by mislynching a spoke. There was also a degree of trust in Yume's judgment.
Fuzzy vig: No. No. No. We explicitly told fuzzy that if he was going to shoot anyone he should shoot S_S because that shot would guard against the worst case scenario, which is also what shooting farside was intended to do. Yes, in hindsight we should have said "Either shoot S_S or don't shoot anyone", instead of asking him not to shoot and then suggesting that if he did shoot, it be at S_S. That was poor communication on our part once we had realized that a proper shot would prevent the threat we were concerned about. Call it irrational paranoia all you want, we saw a clear and present danger and did everything in our power to ensure a game loss wouldn't occur outright because people were being short-sighted.
I already addressed the farside shot at length in the past. In short, everything about her play was scum!me's wet dream, and she was the easiest possible 3p lylo mislynch, since all 3p lylo's required the removal of her defenders.
I'm quoting this to say that this is still something I have an issue with--it is
not
something you've said which made me go, "That's actually a good point". But, unlike most of what I've brought up as responses...I can't think of how to verbalize a response here. Maybe I can do it later, but this is basically me saying: "This part's not satisfactory, but I don't know how to explain why it's not satisfactory".
Okay. Let me know when your able to verbalize your objection.
You suggest that the night kill variants were "less certain", and you'd be right if we still had our ability...but we don't.
While this is probably something which is true, is there any way you can definitively PROVE you don't have your ability? I believe you have indicated before there is, but this is a formal request to restate it for the record, just to be sure.
I don't think we ever said we had a way to prove it. Unfortunately Titus' role doesn't specify if the power returns upon her death, but what we can verify(and which shiro will hopefully corroborate, assuming Drixx is right about him) is that Titus stole our role and found it to be exactly as we claimed. Given that it's exactly how it was claimed, 1) it would be negated at this point, and 2) if it had returned to us, it would only have been usable on individuals who we allied with who then swapped to a new ally after N4. Our allies have been public knowledge. I believe the only slot still alive who, had our power been returned to us upon Titus', we'd be able to roleblock, is A50. Randomidget would have also been an option. Anyways, basically I can't prove to you that we don't have our power back, other than by going through the alliance history and figuring out where scum!us would have roleblocked someone performing a publicly known action.
Yeah. Not much I can do to assuage any doubts you may have about that.
Umm. Don't put words in my mouth. I am pretty fucking sure I did not claim that "farside deserved it".
That's a succinct paraphrase on my part. Are you going to deny you made posts about all the things farside did that were scummy, even after she flipped town? Because I sure remember plenty. And for me those posts boiled down to "farside deserved it". You can argue that exact phrasing is too harsh. You can argue there are perhaps better terms to be used. Maybe, "because farside was that scummy, and was too unbelievable". Or something to that effect, if you feel "farside deserved it" is too accusatory. The point still stands that it was shifting blame onto farside and not accepting any of it for yourselves.
And no, protecting TWIE was not Titus' idea. Ensuring Farside was lynched ASAP was.
The two are functionally identical. I wanted TWIE dead. You pushed farside instead, shielding yourself behind Titus as justification for not lynching scum. So it was Titus's fault, or farside's fault, if you prefer, but it was still you placing the blame elsewhere, not on yourself.
Basically every point here you're saying, "I wasn't saying they were responsible! I was saying this different thing...which says they were responsible". So my point still fucking stands. Even right now, in this very damn post, you're shifting blame away from your slot.
Yes, because we were being attacked for the decision we made, which meant we had to lay out the reasons WHY we made that decision. We weren't trying to drag her through the muck or anything, we were telling everyone else WHY we made the decision we made. Also, in that post I claimd responsibility for the farside shot, which is the one thing I agree with you about having responsibility for. Yes, obviously our desire to remove Farside22 over TWIE was a choice we made, but it WAS spurred on by Titus' preferences. We believed that Farsides flip would clear or condemn TWIE, therefore it made more sense to remove Farside first, while removing TWIE wouldn't have any effect on how likely Farside was to be scum. Sure, I agreed with her reasoning, hell, we arrived at that logical sequence mostly independently, so sure, if you want me to take full blame I can. I don't know if I would have been so certain about my conclusions had Titus not agreed with me, but sure, fuck it, say I would have been.
No, mastin, you have NOT been objectively right at almost every turn. You've been stubborn. You've refused to admit you were wrong.When we've responded to your posts, you've brushed our responses aside as inconsequential, and done EXACTLY what you accuse us of doing, strawmanned them.
The ONLY request you've made that was "simple" that I didn't deliver on in a timely fashion was you asking me to propose a game winning plan, and yes, that was a misunderstanding.
Wtih regards to the difference in our attitude towards you: You've NEVER gone so far out of your way to paint us as scum. From the moment you DELIBERATELY misinterpreted a post I made some days back asking you to explain how something would benefit me (or something along those lines, I honestly can't remember the post details), I've viewed you as hostile and unreasonable, and there's nothing you've done to make me feel any differently. You admit this is just a rehash of things you've said before, THINGS WHICH I HAVE INDEED ADDRESSED FOR THE MOST PART, BUT WTIH RESPONSES YOU SIMPLY CHOOSE TO BRUSH OFF.
Spoilered to say: this is "feel bad" posting.
And not "feel wrong" posting.
Not much I can do about that. That post is the reason why we've treated you the way we have this game, in a fashion contrary to what you've come to expect from us.
Regarding us never admitting fault: Look at your voting history throughout the game. Look at the pushes you made. There were some good ones, yes, but there were also PLENTY of bad ones...and you haven't displayed contrition for those.
Aside from how that is easily shown to be objectively false given that I have on multiple occasions admitted to every shortcoming I've had, aside from how behind the scenes I've been wracked with doubt ever since the Mathblade lynch showed my approach to the game was laced with arrogance, aside from how this is more feel-bad posting rather than feel-wrong posting, aside from all of that and probably more: deflecting the issue by saying, "You did it too!", is not going to earn you favors.
I wasn't looking for you to say, "mastina, you did this".
I was looking for you to address my fucking point.
Saying "you did this" (especially when this is actually one fucking thing I
haven't
done--many of the sins you accuse me of I am in fact guilty of but NOT this one)? Not addressing my fucking point.
You have not admitted fault. Not once. You have made misplay after misplay this game. And after each misplay, you have denied responsibility for it having been a misplay.
It's entirely possible that I may have missed you admitting to shortcomings, but I don't have any recollection of any such public declarations prior to this day phase. I recall mentally noting that complete absence of any mention of mathblade after that flip was revealed, when I expected to hear contrition when the day phase started, and it's possible that I'm basing my analysis of your attitude off of that particularly notable incident. In any case, the point of noting that the accusations you've levelled at us could be (from my recollection at least) be applied to you as well is NOT meant to make you feel bad. It's meant to make you realize that there's no reason to expect us to apologize for being wrong if vocalizing such isn't going to actually accomplish anything. I assume that's why you didn't immediately say oh shit I'm sorry I'm going to sheep everybody else now after the mathblade lynch. It wouldn't have had any positive effect, and it would have merely made it harder for you to get town to follow you going forward.
I'm not sure what you're referring to in a lot of these stance shifts, actually. A shitload has happened.
Prime example: On Episode 9, when we mislynched Fuzzy, you had Almost50 as your strongest townread. You posted many plethora of reasons for why he wouldn't be scum, and were his strongest defender.
On Episode 10, you had Almost50 as your preferred lynch...but more than that, he was actually your strongest scumread. It wasn't that you were lynching him because of a plan to lynch him. You were lynching him because suddenly, all the above evidence was washed away and he was now scum for...well, I don't recall the reasons off the top of my head so I'm not going to claim you used stretchy reasons because I don't actually remember what reasons you used. But you were using actual reasoning to call him scum. Not "this is POE". Not, "this is part of the plan". He was actually
scum
to you.
Those types of shifts with no given explanation are what I am talking about. You discarded previous long-held opinions when they became inconvenient stances to hold. And you've been doing that the whole game. Can you name a stance you have held which was inconvenient to hold? farside doesn't count, for a myriad of reasons. I mean, aside from farside, is there a single stance you have held which was inconvenient for you to have held at that time? A stance which you were firm on, and yet which was something that was actually detrimental to you, yet you held it anyway because you're town and your reads are what they are?
Do you have so much as a single non-farside instance of a read of that type in the entire game?
I saw none. Instead, I see stances as most convenient to be held.
During episode 10, in addition to the initial posting that we found suspect from A50, we also came to the conclusion that all living slots had evidence in their favor which would, under normal circumstances, cause us to rule them out as possible scumspects. Given that, we looked at things while ignoring those pieces of hard evidence, since they weren't doing anything to inform us as to who was more or less likely to be scum. A50 immediately jumped out a scumspect at that point, partially due to the temporal proximity of his suspect actions to the time we realized we had to approach things differently, and partially due to the relative dearth of explicit reasons to suspect the other slots. It was messy, but Drixx was quite convinced that A50 was scum by the day start.
The answer to your second question depends on how you define convenience. We moved to keep A50 and Fuzzy from scumreading one another and attempted to keep the peace between them, when it would have been simple to get fuzzy to shoot A50 while he was using his track. I don't think we've had any other reads that we've tenaciously held onto that have put us at risk though, if that's what you mean by inconvenient.
First of all, if we had the capacity to treat you this whole different way deliberately and manipulate you at any time, why didn't we do it throughout the game?
You did. Midgame, the non-shitty way of treating me was how you were treating me. Coincidentally, that is the time period you were in my townbloc.
Even large swathes of the earlier part of the game, where you weren't my main focus, where you weren't my main push, you were not treating me with hostility.
It was only when I formed the scumread that this attitude emerged from you.
Fair enough. I don't have the time to go back and verify the exact correlation of timelines etc, but I'll assume you're accurately presenting the events. Why would we react that way though? Where's the benefit of engaging with you, of all people, with hostility? If it was clearly a choice we made, why would we make that choice?
As I said before, it wasn't the fact of the scumread that incurred our wrath, it was the way you prosecuted it.
Also, again, after spending the entire game antagonizing you...WHY ARE YOU HERE to be the critical vote?
I'd be here no matter what thanks to the gem's bubble mechanic. randomidget wouldn't be able to read all of my posts and translate them fast enough to get proper responses, sure. But he'd be getting the bombardment all the same.
Do you think that randomidget would have gotten my list of grievances, looked at it, and said, "but i townread them tho :/" and just left it at that?
Do you think that I wouldn't point out to randomidget, "RANDOM. I AM DEAD. YOU ARE ALIVE. WHY THE FUCK DO YOU THINK THAT IS?"?
Do you think that the feedback I'd give to him would have been discarded as useless?
Given how much randomidget was sheeping others, namely MoI but also to some extent he actually did listen to me, I'd say no.
I am here because I am the only option to be here.
I am also here because I'm expected to vote wrong, yes. I'm here because it's expected that I have a higher chance of voting wrong than randomidget would. Yet that's not something I see as being alignment-indicative for you.
I believe you are drastically overestimating your ability to influence random. He definitely wouldn't have discarded your input though. It's possible I'm overly biased in my belief in this position simply because I know my own alignment though, and I may be underestimating that effect. You might be right and the scum team had no choice but to go after random over you.
Was it a climax-specific event?
Or was it just USED during the climax?
I'm relatively certain mine could have been used at literally any time there was the appropriate stress--day, night, doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter if it's a day event or night event(though it was tagged as "the climax event blah blah"). What's important is that it was triggered during the night, which means even if it may have been possible for him to trigger it during the day, the game state at day start was determined during the night, which is relevant because the point I was addressing was indicating that you believed it was possible that his targeting may have changed based on how night actions resolved.
If we could have anticipated both grapes and randoms actions, as you believe we would, then we would have anticipated a Shiro/us/Randomidget LYLO.
Never said you couldn't! I said that you had a scenario where killing me gave you a lower chance of victory than killing randomidget.
And it's true. You know DAMN good and well that when I live past my expiration date, I get paranoid.
You know DAMN good and well that I can be charismatic when I need to...and that if I died instead of randomidget, I would be right there, in a private topic with randomidget, separated from the main thread, able to convince him. I could lay traps for you, and I could explain to him exactly why I was doing what I was. You nightkilling me would be an objective mistake, because it'd place me in a position where my influence on the gamestate would INCREASE.
In short, a dead me = no reevaluation on RR = me pushing randomidget to vote for RR.
An alive me = wracked with self-doubt = me having not a fucking clue what the fuck I'm doing.
Already addressed. Though I disagree with your conclusions, the point has merit.
this is all mushy feeling stuff, and I can't argue with that.
No, that part is one of the few things which isn't mushy feelings. Your own response is contradictory:
Yes, I've avoided closing doors because YOU DON'T HAVE GOOD REASONS to close them. There's an entire game of evidence of scumhunting and gamesolving.
If there's an entire game of evidence of scumhunting and gamesolving...why are the fucking doors still open? Why is there so much room for them to still be there? Why aren't any of them getting closed until they're literally impossible? That's not mushy feels. That's simple fact. You've kept options open. You've not worked to close them.
No, mastin, what's fact is that those doors didn't get closed fast enough. My success or failure in my attempts to close those doors exists independent of whether or not I was working to close them. I maintain that I was. You don't see it. That's the mushy feels part. You don't feel that my play was working towards those goals, and I can't argue with how you interpret my play, without having a shitload more time to go through my own ISO and pull out specific instances, which is something we don't have. I know I could do it, but that again, isn't something that I can really use as a meaningful argument against your position.
Why do you think I would PREFER to have to fight tooth and nail to convince you, to capitalize on your nature and manipulate you, when instead I could be spending the day talking to random and shiro?
My options here are that you either forgot about the bubble mechanic by this point, or are conveniently ignoring them.
Neither seems like something you should do as town.
As addressed, though, the answer to the question IS in fact, the bubble mechanic. I would do MORE damage behind a closed door than I would out in the open. I would do MORE damage with a private topic to talk to randomidget in which you had no access to. I would do MORE damage by being able to know I was dead and dead for good reason, and I would be able to talk to randomidget and appeal to him as a result, in a place you would have zero influence over. You couldn't talk to me. You couldn't do anything with me. But I could do plenty to you, even when dead.
Again, it's not like there's much of a choice on-hand. You leave randomidget alone, the bubble mechanic is in play. You leave me alone, you have to deal with me. But I am easier to deal with. I am easier to mislead. I am easier to placate. randomidget might have been townreading you, but it was still easier to placate me because again: randomidget would have access to me. randomidget would know he was townreading you and yet still alive. randomidget would have all of me pushing him, pressuring him every step of the way with absolute conviction to vote RR. That, you'd have no control over whatsoever.
But by killing randomidget and leaving me alive? You can interact with me directly. And interacting with me is...a good way to get me in this zone of self-doubt. You claim, "we fully expected the day to open with you voting us", yet that's bullshit; you know me well enough to know that I would absolutely doubt EVERYTHING come lylo. So I'd be easier to sway.
It's not that you have to have mysterious mystical knowledge of me.
It's that you have game experience with me and you call me a friend.
My friends know how I fucking think.
My friends know that I have incredibly-low self-confidence. That I have high levels of self-doubt. That every step of the way, I am plagued by my indecision. I have a reputation for the contrary, sure! I have the "mask" of mastina. The mask of my play, the me that I show of, the fearless, doubtless mastina who would never admit she could be wrong. But it's just a mask, and every one of my friends. Every player who knows anything about me. Knows that it's just that, a mask. That inside I am a shattered, broken, frail individual who simply can't sort the game and tries to pretend otherwise.
It doesn't take some oracle to know this. It doesn't take some level of intimate, deep knowledge about my psyche that you couldn't have. All it takes is even the most basic of understandings of how my mind operates--something you have on multiple occasions demonstrated you have awareness of. You might not know the specifics. Fuck, even I don't, I don't think anyone on here does. But you know the generalities of how I go about my process. It's impossible for you not to know this much about me.
Our expectation of you voting us to start the day off once we saw the situation was not at all bullshit. Perhaps there was a bit of hyperbole, but we absolutely did expect you to vote us SOON after day start, basically as soon as you had Varsoons answers to your questions. Remember, everything about the way you've interacted with us has felt just as foreign and unusual for us as our reaction to this play has been to you. I saw no reason to think you wouldn't simply double down on your existing stances.
The random/you interactions had you died have been addressed already, but I did just have a thought tangentially related to it: Grapes claimed to be the death bubbler, insinuating that he was the reason why people who died were bubbled. I don't see any reason why the prescient us you've posited wouldn't be willing to gamble that with grapes gone, you wouldn't have the opportunity to talk with random, and have the confidence that even if you were able to talk to him, he could still be controlled. It's not really relevant, since it's pure supposition and we have no idea how that would all work, but it does weaken my agreement with your point a bit.
I will try to (I have less than 24 hours and yet I've got like a month's worth of work for this game; I'm not even sure what I need to prioritize at this point), but I still want to ask: why does Drixx make the mistake at all, though? And why does he continue to misunderstand when you were coordinating with him to try and clarify?
I've asked for a lot of separation of you two as individuals in a great many number of my responses...but the simple fact is, when you two are Reasonably Rational, the hydra, you two by and large blend together. You become something "more" than you otherwise would be. You can still tell who is posting often even without signing. You can still make mistakes. But you make mistakes less often, because you coordinate your efforts, you coordinate your posts, you talk to each other, you communicate with one another. And beyond that, Drixx misinterpreting it feels like something which is a stretch in of itself--even if he was playing solo, I find it difficult to believe he makes such a large mechanical misplay.
Lol. Drixx makes a lot of dumb mistakes like that. He made one a bit ago, where he thought it was possible for grapes and shiro to be solo scum still. He forgets things, nad I remind him. I have NO FUCKING IDEA why he was so insistent on that misinterpretation. Hell, if you want an example of a stance that was, in the moment, inconvenient for us, it was that, because it was DEMONSTRABLY UNTRUE, and could have easily resulted in us getting lynched. I *think* he just conflated her two claims and thougth I was getting it wrong, but that's the onl possible explanation I have for his behavior.
We NEVER viewed Farsides role as so similar that we should be suspicious, and if we had said suspicion wouldn't have applied because of our knowledge of the mod meta, and again because of said mod meta, there was no need to clarify that our ability could stop factionals.
I'm not talking about that. That wasn't the issue. The issue is, you could have tried to verify farside's status with her block. It didn't matter what your read on her was. It didn't matter what you viewed her ability as, relevant to her alignment. She had a block. You previously had a block.
Why weren't you trying to confirm the specifics of her block, to see if you could either verify it or catch her in a lie? You should have jumped at a golden opportunity to catch farside as a liar with something which was 100% beyond all deniability: knowing your roleblock, and knowing hers, and asking about yours, and asking her to talk about hers. Would that have definitively "caught" her, no, but was it worth trying?
Why WASN'T it worth trying? That's the fucking problem; you didn't try it when you should have.
We probably should have pushed her about that. It was just so obvious to us that she was a threat, and that she had already lied about portions of her role, and that nobody else seemed to care, that we just didn't bother. The mechanical differences were evident to us, and could have explained away any issues with her role. Mind you, this was all subconscious, it wasn't something Drixx and I actively discussed. At no point did we float the idea and discard it. It never felt worth floating. That was a mistake. I don't believe it would have done anything had we pushed her on it, but it was definitely suboptimal not to do so.
It's a request for something that can't be provided, because you've already dismissed out of hand every action we've taken that's been pro-town, because of your results bias.
You call it results bias.
I call it actually wanting results.
Because let me tell you something.
Push come to shove.
When it comes to the top-tier players.
The players who are scum are going to get results which favor the scum and did not favor the town. (Most likely, while APPEARING to have favored the town, except for small details. Hint: this is what I see your play as!)
The players who are town are going to get results which might not always favor the town, but do so more than not. Their results might sometimes favor the scum, but often don't favor either alignment. Basically, the players who are top-tier town will have town-results > null results > scum results in order of likelihood.
Where are the RESULTS of your play?
YOUR play.
Not the play of others you assisted with.
Not the play which was good in THEORY if not in practice.
Where are the results of what YOU, PERSONALLY have done, THAT HELPED THE TOWN DIRECTLY AND UNAMBIGUOUSLY with zero room for scum to have gained something.
That is what I don't see from you.
And that's the largest fucking problem.
Yes, as town, you are not going to make perfect plays.
You will make mistakes.
You will have plays which you thought were good but which in hindsight were a mistake.
Those exist in every game. They exist in my game, they exist in Titus's game, they'd exist in your game.
But as town, you are still going to make plays which show town results.
Maybe not immediately. Maybe not on D1. In fact, many town players of good skill get mislynched because they were unable to show those abilities at that stage in the game even if they were capable of it at a later time.
But you've have eleven fucking days, eleven full day phases, to show off your town self, to further a town objective.
So why the fuck is it that when I look at your play, instead of seeing stuff that furthers a town win, I see shit that has helped the scum survive this long?
You say the results are irrelevant?
Fuck that, results are everything.
What results do you have to show for your play?
That's what I'm asking, but which you're not giving me.
And you keep saying, "no slot except Xkfyu could".
Bullshit.
I can lay out reasons for almost every player. randomidget. Magna. Fuzzy (not in his vigs, but in his voting pattern). grapes. Titus. kraskaesque. Creature. Yume. NotChara. Klingoncelt. McMenno! The list goes on and on. Some have smaller contributions than others. Some have contributions which are a little bit hazier since we don't know the alignments of four key players that they focused on, but by and large, I can name reasons each and every player gave results, actual RESULTS which were unambiguously town.
I can't name those results for you. Maybe your definition of results is different than mine. Mine's not, "hey I vigged scum, that's results" as you seem to think it is. It's, "we did this, and this was what happened as a consequence. This consequence was pro-town because it helped the town in this way and hurt the scum in that way". That's almost entirely, utterly absent from your posting. You lack town results.
You have plenty of scum results.
You have a plethora of, "This was town, even though...", "this was a good plan, except...".
You're the only one who doesn't have, "This was town, because it did this town thing and it worked to do that town thing".
I think we have fundamentally different interpretations of what makes an action protown. By my standards, I CAN'T point to said "obvprotown" actions that you can see in others. It's just not how I function. I see actions people take that don't make sense for scum!them, or actions that scum take that don't make sense for scum!someone, and diminish or increase the probability that different slots are scum appropriately. The sort of intangible, subjective results you're talking about aren't something I'm equipped to identify and express in a way that satisfies you, but I'll try.
Beachapalooza was undeniable a pro-town thing. Yes, us mentioning it was used by us diminish the pressure on us, but do you seriously think we couldn't have avoided a lynch without mentioning it? The simple fact that we even let anyone know we had the event(long before that pressure existed on us) was pro-town, simply by virtue of how damaging the event was to scum. You can argue that we couldn't have predicted that you would get the cop, but what else would have made sense for you? You were a known conftown, and thus had every reason to expect people would be townreading you and thus protecting you(not to mention the fact that Yume had claimed her bodyguard to the game, so you had even more reason to expect to survive), and the result of either a cop check or an additional layer of protection on a conftown is an undeniably pro-town result. Even if you HAD used your cop check on a town slot, that's still an additional conftown. THAT undeniably, at the minimum, even WITH people screwing up and removing the possible tangential benefit of it, had a pro-town result, that far outweighs any benefit it would be to us, the people who are certainly the least likely to be afraid of getting lynched. At some point earlier you said we "panicked" and claimed it, when that's not true. We claimed it because we had talked to Titus about it, and she advised claiming it. There was no reason to not do so at that point and get people to stop wasting all their time on us when we had actual scum to catch.
In addition, we spent the entire game making sure that the conftowns and probtowns had access to as much information as possible, in as secure a fashion as possible, and then presented that informatoin to the game at large at the best times. That is also undeniably pro town, and hurts scum. This is something where I can't point to a specific mechanical thing that resulted from it, but you KNOW that benefits town and hurts scum.
If you look at things based ONLY on results, then your analysis is fundamentally flawed, because it is naturally biased by hindsight.
Lylo is DEFINED by hindsight. That much I know.
It's defined by hindsight. NOT bias. It's about looking at the game, the ebb and flow, OBJECTIVELY, using the facts you've uncovered and the knowledge you now have to put the pieces together. NOT by interpreting things in the fashion which fits your established beliefs.
Apologies that I am a bit busy multitasking (and a bit salty at losing a game I should have won when in this game I'm almost positive no matter what I'm going to fuck it up and make the wrong call), mainly modding, but I've skimmed most of what's been said and felt the need to say, I have a LOT of work to do, will be doing it soon enough, keep posting what you are posting--I've skimmed well enough, but haven't read it properly, and haven't crossreferenced what you're saying with the reading I need to do (realistically not the whole game but what I
can
do is the last few day phases; that much, I think I CAN pull off), but this is me saying that you're on my radar right now. I should probably eat something (even if that cuts away from my time here), and I have some daily tasks to attend to (among them my blog), all of which regrettably eats away at my time here, but you ARE high on my priority list.
Don't be too terribly disappointed, though, if my final VOTE: RR, or final VOTE: No Lynch isn't a long speech. By the time I cast that final vote, I'll be beyond exhausted mentally, emotionally, and maybe even physically, so writing up a long loss speech isn't something I'd have the energy to actually do. It'll be, appropriate enough for the 90%-likely-to-be-a-loss, anticlimactic just plain vote as I maybe type a paragraph or two of apologies about how much I suck.
I'll have a lot of heat postgame to deal with, especially if I don't justify my vote at the time, but I'm not going to be able to fully analyze the game,
and
write up a long post forming my final conclusion. I can fully analyze the game, while still engaging you. I intend to, after I actually eat among other stuff. But I won't be left with any energy whatsoever by the end of the night.
It sucks to be the conftown on what is (in this case, if you're wrong) a last day. You are in the situation we were in the first SU game. I believe I made the case as succinctly as it can be made. We're really not scum, and I think everyone agrees there is no plausible town motive or explanation for how Grapes behaved, and so it becomes a question of who is partnered with Grapes.
If that partner were shiro, then shiro could have hammered no lynch earlier so unless he just didn't realize, shiro is probably not the partner.
That means it's A50 + Grapes. If it's not, then you can blame me 100% Mastin. I made the case and I believe it fits perfectly with the game, how the game flowed, the way things happened, how voting played out, mod meta and even fits expected balance. It just freaking fits. I figuratively offer to film myself eating my boxer shorts if it's not Grapes+A50. I'm that sure.
Technically the time I set was 45 minutes from now in casting a vote, but I think the actual timeframe is 4:00 AM or thereabouts for deadline, meaning I basically want to make my choice, my decision, by 2. I'm sorry it's taken me this long, been multitasking with other stuff. I have in fact read what you've said. Right now I don't think there's anything you can say which would do anything, honestly--I think, at this stage, it's all on me. All on me, to read and see about some things. Which is what I'm going to try and be doing.
Post
Post #12509 (ISO) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:12 pm
Postby mastin2 »
There's so many things I am going over right now.
So many things, doubts raised.
Every part of the game I'm going over, really.
And I know I should be verbalizing them.
I'm keeping everyone in the dark, even the dead thread at this point, so everyone for all I know thinks this is bullshit, that I'm not reading dozens of pages, and doing many isos. But. I am. I'm tired, getting really tired here, yet I'm keeping it up because I'm trying to make a conclusion.
It is right now 50/50. Nothing definitive either way. I wish there was, but I'm not finding anything which is tipping the scales.
I find small things which make me think one thing, and then small things which make me think the other thing.
So I'm doing work right now.
Reading, even when tired.
I'm sorry I'm not keeping up you do date on every detail on every post that I would make. This is the best I have to offer you, to just work in silence for the most part. I wish I had the time to show all my thoughts. All my work. All my research. To prove that I'm not making shit up, that I'm reading large swathes of the game. But I can't. I can tell you right now I'm on 440, but that doesn't tell you much except that I'm on a page, it doesn't tell you what I'm doing there because, well, fuck if I know hwat I'm doing there anyway. I'm looking for something, lost and confused, not knowing what I'm hoping to get.
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Post #12511 (ISO) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:31 pm
Postby mastin2 »
In post 11186, grapes wrote:Right now we're idling afraid to step into an interesting chapter of this game. I understand that fear. We're taking the safe way out and just shoving through a lynch on a lynchbait player because there's a "guilty" and letting the game drive itself which is one a shame and two hurting not only our chances to win but the game as a whole.
Maybe I'm wrong. Heck, the thought that shadow/creature could be a bus popped into my head once or twice but I doubt it.
Tinfoiled a bit earlier about fuzzy just being an SK. Which would explain the lack of scumkill for real because he'd probably be bp if sk and I can see scum shooting a claimed vig who cc'd scum more than a leftover/point person or w/e farside actually is; this would also explain why people are pushing him despite producing a body.
I dunno maybe I suck but even if creature's scum who's his buddy? I refreshed checked some isos after forgetting a lot of things; just decided to chill back and skim/scumhunt the first 1000 posts or so and got some very good clarity like, I dunno just feel really comfortable with my reads at present.
In post 11187, Reasonably Rational wrote:Farside said she misunderstood her thing and that she DOES stop factional kills, so I concluded that her calling Creature out as having been blocked by her plus her confirming that Varsoon said she blocks factional kills equated to a guilty. What am I missing in there?
As for having a plan and leading and being proactive, I'll point out again that we actually put forth a proactive plan to address all the possible fail points. Lynch Creature, force Farside to prove her claim (or eat rope), force fuzzy to confirm vig shot (or eat rope) with vig shot empowered and targeted at Shadow. I think people are being Naive when it comes to Farside and I don't know how to wake people up out of bad assumptions about her slot. Ideally tomorrow enough people will have the info we need them to have that this hits 100% win probability and we don't screw it up. It's going to depend REALLY heavily on how the scum team was compensated for the game having 8 slots that could never be mislynches with another 2 that could not be if things played out a certain way (copy Titus power to a 2nd person and let them have mod confirm their alignment would make a 9th, and Kraska could have been a 10th in a 3 person LYLO situation, which probably explains the mislynch... I would have a hard time playing active if I was sitting on that ability).
I would feel like the scum events we've seen compensate for that, except that scum have as many missing night kills as they got from events, so that means town was given protection to offset the scum event killing power. So what was scum given to offset the fact that the game began with 8-10 slots they could never hope to get mislynched?
We think the answer should be really obvious. And if you add that to what I've already said today, you should realize why we put the time in to lay out a very specific plan and have Random try and poke holes in it before presenting it to the game at large. I have been tempted to just break our game long compartmentalization of information and just say everything except I think our (Mastin, Yume, us, Titus, Gems) compartmentalization of important info has kept scum in the dark and they've run into several misplays as a result.
I'm hoping that some people, specifically, will read between the lines of my posts today and it will click. I think MoI got it earlier. I hope Masitn picked up on it. If we get our block solid I don't think the scum can kill enough of us to win, even if the thing I'm not saying outright is the case.
In post 11188, Almost50 wrote:So, how about a vote, Drixx? If you vote Creature maybe Moi will hammer. If you opt for Shadow instead I will hammer if I'm still around. P.S. I hope you do have a plan B in case that thing about Fuzzy doesn't work out as planned.
In post 11189, Reasonably Rational wrote:We always have a backup plan. VOTE: Creature
I'm sticking to our plan. Plus ... something tells me that Shadow isn't going to eat rope today. But ... he can't dodge a vig shot can he?
I just don't see this progression as being "grapes is scum with Shadow_step, and Almost50 is grapes's scumbuddy, with a town-RR making this call".
Post
Post #12512 (ISO) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:37 pm
Postby mastin2 »
In post 11194, Reasonably Rational wrote:I am pretty sure I know or have a very solid guess at what everyone in the game does. If I knew of a way to get enough people to target her to make her prove her claim, that would have been may plan.
As far as trying to say someone else was the shooter ... do you know something we don't? I mean ... MoI opened up after Farside gave the info by asking if any other slot could have prevented a NK, and nobody could, which basically meant that Farside blocked you (She called this noisy ascetic earlier so I think it's automatic and she knows who targets her? Forgive me if this is off; I lost a great deal of my notes with the great water into running computer event of November 2016), and then she came in and clarified that her block could indeed stop the NK. The math seems really simple.
In post 11195, farside22 wrote:Some players are skimming my post I see. My rb doesn't not stop factional kills. I said that 3 fucking times. When I'm targeted to blocks everything including kills.
Which means creature is probably town. Or at least this makes half the votes on him no longer valid. Do you know for sure when you get hit?
In post 11206, grapes wrote:Drixx you're kinda missing the point here; you voted creature for being roleblocekd the night we're missing a kill, I'm assuming that's becaues you think creature submitted a kill and it failed.
We now know that it was a pansy-block that couldn't stop kills AND ALSO that the scum kill was probably eaten by farsides bulletproof. It's just as likely for creature to have put a kill in as anyone else fmpov.
And I don't think farside would lie for no reason either.
In post 11209, Reasonably Rational wrote:I think the only reason Farside is still alive is because she's told 95% truth and only lied when she had to. I would make any side bet (if it were allowed and not considered an out of game influence) that she's a strict 3rd party, at this point. Her play has been admirable in that case.
That said... I'm voting Creature for two reasons. First one is that I think he's scum. I do admit to misunderstanding the earlier claims as being a hard guilty on him, but after being told the exact situation, I still think he's scum. There's another really good reason to play it this way.
------------
Scum have to spin a narrative. That's one of the ways I have developed to reliably catch scum.
------------
No ... you're just the kind of scum who likes to openly troll the shit out of the game. I do have to give you some props for being entertaining on your way to the gallows.
This series of posting similarly so. Drixx looks really bad here; grapes looks really good.
Post
Post #12513 (ISO) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:52 pm
Postby mastin2 »
I mean. Large swathes of the game, grapes feels flat, individually. And Almost50's plans benefit scum. But you get moments like this:
In post 11418, Almost50 wrote:@MoI: *Sigh* Frankly, I'm done talking to you. You do as you wish.
@TFL: I changed my mind. I'm now BEGGING YOU to shoot me tonight. I don't want to play in this game anymore and I have never replaced out or walked away from a game I signed to, so release from my contract me please.
In post 11425, grapes wrote:I'm pretty on board with A50 being the last red now.
My nightmare is trusting rr and then fuzzy not flipping shadow tonight.
...Which are pretty good signs of that not being the team.
It's almost 2, the time I wanted to be done, yet I'm not even remotely close.
This is NOT meant to be a dig at Magna, but rereading, just for the sake of it, to answer your question here, IF you wanted to continue the theme, you COULD go, "Moron or Idiot" to get the appropriate abbreviation.
Post
Post #12515 (ISO) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:57 pm
Postby Reasonably Rational »
Drixx (me) was dumb and misunderstood what Farside said. I'm operating on memory, but Farside checked with Varsoon and then relayed an answer, and then a clarification. I thought she was saying that the answer she got indicated a guilty. It wasn't until Cerberus asked me about it last night and explained the mistake that I realized I even had made one. I simply assumed until Farside died that she had misled us and after she flipped I assumed it was a misunderstanding on her part. Honest mistake. You'll see a lot more of them if you read the hydra PT. Cerb and I complement each other. He caught it and I just misunderstood.
If that's what you're going to decide on ... it's going to be really shitty for us to lose together because I misunderstood. I would say ask yourself if me both making a mistake and then sticking to it all game lines up with your expectation of scum me. I think we both know the answer.
~Drixx
P-edit: Meh ... I have been stuck awake with an unpleasant health issue. I feel pain. Maybe not your pain, but pain.
Post
Post #12516 (ISO) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:02 pm
Postby mastin2 »
In post 11485, Almost50 wrote:We had agreed (myself, RR & TFL) that it's best if I was today's lynch, if for nothing else then to confirm I'm Town and give my night result credibility, so I' eagerly waiting to see that result and then I'm fine being lynched.
In post 11499, Almost50 wrote:I will listen to Mastina.. I will listen to Mastina .. I will NOT listen to her! Duh! I have my own mind. VOTE: grapes
TWIE sold us the idea that grapes was shot by Sky only to clear his scum buddy. Furthermore, I like Fuzzy's argument about there not being a scum kill tonight because grapes was inactive.
Either that or lynch ME, and then I will get to call you names at my own will in the dead thread. (This is @ Mastina and MoI, who still can't read. Who THE FUCK said Shadow should not be lynched bc farside flipped green?? After the fiasco of Exposition 8 and you literally not being able to comprehend a single word of our PT you come back here and AGAIN misrep what I said. You should pursue a career in politics, I tell you. Only a politician can live with so much false propaganda.)
Now if the Town has their heads irreversibly far up their arses then I will vote ME over either of RR/Fuzzy, and you had better lynch me because I am NOT VOTING EITHER OF THEM EVER IN THIS GAME. Period. I'm done listening to shit from anyone. I will pursue my own agenda EVEN IF IT MEANT THE TOWN LOSES. My vote is on grapes and isn't going to move. You can join me or you can lynch me.
The thing is, Almost50-grapes bussing here would be detrimental. At the time, grapes wasn't a lynch candidate at all. Magna had cleared grapes. I had cleared grapes. Between the two conftown driving the game clearing grapes, he had no reason to push for a grapes lynch. Not like this.
Post
Post #12518 (ISO) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:05 pm
Postby mastin2 »
In post 11515, Almost50 wrote:But really, it is not that complicated. Lynch grapes or lynch me. Fuzzy did what he was supposed to do as Town and eliminated a potential threat (or a future mislynch towards LyLo). RR play canNOT be scum motivated AT ALL, and even assuming they're a Scum mastermind then they made quite a few silly mistakes that makes it virtually impossible for them to win as the remaining scum. They could still be lynched 2 in game days from now and the Town still wins.
I'm 90% sure now that it is grapes because of the no NK. It makes sense with TWIE's ability being used to falsely remove him from our suspicion list, and the "slip" Shadow made looks more and more genuine now that I look at all possibilities.
Yet again, some here are persistent on not trusting me. I'm OK getting lynch to eliminate that doubt as well. I'm now in -more or less- the same situation to some that farside was to me, so the same rules and principles apply.
We still have time though, so let's give Varsoon some time to get back to me regarding that investigation result. If he doesn't in -say- 48 hours (i.e. by the time MoI comes back) then we proceed with my lynch anyway. Once I flip you can either go after grapes or still be stubborn and lynch RR first. When they flip I'm hoping you guys will go after grapes and not Fuzzy. If I had it my way it would be grapes today though, so I wanted that to be known.
Post
Post #12519 (ISO) » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:08 pm
Postby mastin2 »
In post 11529, Almost50 wrote:First things first: Varsoon PM'd me with the result of "No Action Submitted". Now I do have a feeling I was redirected, because this result in particular did not explicitly mention my target's name. I had previously been told McMenno/Creature results with their names intact within he investigation result PM. However, I have no proof of such redirection other than that.
And besides; nobody provided an answer nor even seems to have addressed the issue of TWIE's event showing/claiming Sky tried to shoot grapes and TWIE telling us this was a corrected-to-be-true result. I don't see why SCUM would correct a SCUM action to prove their target to be TOWN. The only way I see it is they decided to bus Sky to falsely confirm grapes as SCUM, but then Sky died earlier than she was supposed to. What -on Earth- was TWIE thinking when/if he confirmed his own scum buddy took a shot at grapes (thus proving Sky to be a killer)?? Explain THAT please.
Also, to save you the trouble; you have enough voted to Lynch RR w/o me. There are currently 8 players alive, thus 5 for the lynch, so you need to convince 2 of Shiro, TFL & grapes to join you and the 2 Gems, and if the game ends then I will change my avatar to a donkey instead. If it doesn't then you know you need to take a step back and try to take a look from a different angle. Either there are TWO scum still alive, or RR is a Town slot is what I'm saying.
I confirm on my personal integrity that Cerb had legit issues when attempting to upgrade his computer. It interrupted other plans we had. Please stay away from implicit or explicit statements that state either of us lied about real life to benefit in a mafia game. I will seriously lose the last bit of patience I have and unload on you like a mack truck if you keep that shit up.
In post 11536, grapes wrote:Who are you shooting if RR flips scum?
That's the interesting question.
That's interesting indeed.. how certain you are that the game has TWO scum left alive at this point. (Otherwise; if RR flips scum the game ends. Right??)
In post 11540, grapes wrote:Hey almost, how about you respond to my catch up post.
I'm firmly in the 1 threat to earth left club. I just think it would be interesting if the game didn't end after we removed all of them, that's all. : p
In post 11543, grapes wrote:Kinda comes down to who we think in rr/almost is the bad town and I could quote the post that shows it's an obvious choice, but I'll spare diminishing almost's reputation further.
In post 11544, Almost50 wrote:Btw, I need your modding experience on this one: What does an action that CANNOT FAIL exactly mean? It cannot be blocked? It cannot be blocked OR redirected? It works through a JK block?? What?? Cuz if the name of my target wasn't explicitly mentioned in my result it gives me the feeling it's NOT that of my target. Then again, why would scum redirect me to someone who did not take action when they could've stayed put and take no action themselves?? This may not help determine alignments, but it sure doesn't bode well with me.
P-edit: @grapes: What's your precise question to me?
In post 11545, grapes wrote:I wanna know why you're getting hung up on not getting a result worded to you the same way and are trying to twist that like it means you were redirected and not that it was just worded a different way. And also what your action does? Now that I'm reading your post it looks like you can tell if someone actioned or not at night.
First; have you asked varsoon about why there was a wording difference. Then two, you can explain to me where a redirector comes in here, given we haven't really seen evidence of one. And then third how you being redirected makes you think I'm scum to start with.
In post 11545, grapes wrote:I wanna know why you're getting hung up on not getting a result worded to you the same way and are trying to twist that like it means you were redirected and not that it was just worded a different way. And also what your action does? Now that I'm reading your post it looks like you can tell if someone actioned or not at night.
First; have you asked Varsoon about why there was a wording difference. Then two, you can explain to me where a redirector comes in here, given we haven't really seen evidence of one.And then third how you being redirected makes you think I'm scum to start with.
It took Varsoon a whole day to get back to me with a result to begin with, so no I didn't bother asking him what it meant. However, in my mind when your role is tailored to get results in a certain format then when that format changes it should be a point of concern.
And yes, I can tell if my target took action and whether that action was harmful. On Season Finale it also tells me the exact action and who the target was. That's why I've used it Twice of 3 times on Season Finale. The first one had to be used before the Season Finale though. Now maybe you can help me understand why TWIE would confirm you got shot at by Sky if that was the case. Care to give that one a try?
I confirm on my personal integrity that Cerb had legit issues when attempting to upgrade his computer.
I never ever ever would call into question real-life aspects about that and I'm frankly insulted you are insulted because you should fucking know better than to accuse me of making that accusation. You know damn good and well I was referring to the second half of the post, not the first, about the "none of this makes sense".
In post 11547, grapes wrote:I've been obvtown all game. Twie either didn't really think confirming that would mean anything, or thought you all would drown in wine over it. Look what happened.
So you're saying Scum!TWIE confirmed Sky being Scum for shits and giggles?
I confirm on my personal integrity that Cerb had legit issues when attempting to upgrade his computer.
I never ever ever would call into question real-life aspects about that and I'm frankly insulted you are insulted because you should fucking know better than to accuse me of making that accusation. You know damn good and well I was referring to the second half of the post, not the first, about the "none of this makes sense".
Played a game that was at 11,500 posts and around 200,000 words of hydra chat on your phone before, have you?
My academy.