STEVEN UNIVERSE 2 - GAME OVER

[Firebringer]

I honestly didn't worry about gems because scu mseemed so interested in killing them tbh

[Varsoon]

I know, BUT there was no reason to play it that way, AND we had a role telling us "Go kill gems, it's good for you!"

Even in that best case scenario, the game ends from our victory before the cgs removal matters.

And in the scenario where there are loads of gems and few town and scum, the chances of us escaping a lynch with the collective attention of 4-5 players on us was even less likely.

The gems "weakness" was one we were mechanically told didn't exist, essentially.

...if the weakness was mod-confirmed to scum, I never see the CGs winning this setup. Ever.
In most cases, it'd be a scum win outright, too.
The idea was that you could use your direct line to Steven via the Connie fake-claim (which I purposefully mirrored a major part of SU1's 3-way hood with connie, steven, and fake-claim centipeetle) in order to learn that info.

[Firebringer]

lol I think I called out that Connie was a fake claim to get to Steven too, didn't I?

[Varsoon]

That's what I get for WIFOM'ing my own mod meta

[Titus]

@Titus: whether you or mastin won was immaterial. We chose mastin purely for the sake of consistency in the plan I had outlined to you and yume.

It was though, and you should have aborted when I objected and you knew or should have know I was triggerring my IC. You did get Mastina a win, but at the expense of revealing a scum mastermind.

If you said, Titus will confirm herself as town most likely, we should elect Titus en masse and play to her pride, town gets a lot less info. Mastina looks better and thus I compromise onto Snarky/town faster, rather than leading a DGB lynch. There's also less data on numbers with split wagons. We had a three pronged equation with the division instead of there are x many group scum.

[Steven Quartz]

Almost forgot

@Skybird Maheswaran, which is Connie's surname, translates to 'lord of the universe'. I thought back then that was your role, so yeah, I called you that.

[Titus]

@Yume, Feedback for me? I left you some you didn't see.

[Steven Quartz]

I saw it. As for you, I have none which I can give. Maybe you can ask the others, though.

[Cerberus v666]

And I couldn't care less about anyone's play if they weren't alive in the last two day phases.

This game has gone on so long that I have difficulty recalling what occurred early game.

Pedit: we had no reason to think you'd trigger an IC.

You may have thought you were clear, but you weren't.

@Varsoon: I'm not suggesting the scum team should have KNOWN about the weakness. I'm saying that we were incentivized to kill them, and so the closer we got to killing then all, the less the weakness mattered.

[Steven Quartz]

In memorial, Crystal Gems



Leggy was the most adorable one of our enemies. <3 (I mean actual Leggy, not the player in the slot)

[Firebringer]

Steven and the Stevens is best band

[Varsoon]

@Cerb: Well, yeah, I also didn't want it to be an outright easy call. I wanted the decision to be a harder one to make, with incentives for both sides:
Kill Crystal gems--remove pro-town, strong PRs.
Kill Town--throttle towards a quicker win.

[Titus]

And I couldn't care less about anyone's play if they weren't alive in the last two day phases.

This game has gone on so long that I have difficulty recalling what occurred early game.

Pedit: we had no reason to think you'd trigger an IC.

You may have thought you were clear, but you weren't.

@Varsoon: I'm not suggesting the scum team should have KNOWN about the weakness. I'm saying that we were incentivized to kill them, and so the closer we got to killing then all, the less the weakness mattered.

I want to read your PT at the time but I am kinda surprised you didn't pick up on it.

It's unfortunate you have no feedback for me. I was looking forward to it.

I think your day play was awesome for the record after the first couple days which is why I almost regretted letting you live day 2.

[Steven Quartz]

Cerberus seems reluctant to hydra with me. :/

I thought he wouldn't be opposed to that given his assertions that he likes me.

[Firebringer]

@Cerb: Well, yeah, I also didn't want it to be an outright easy call. I wanted the decision to be a harder one to make, with incentives for both sides:
Kill Crystal gems--remove pro-town, strong PRs.
Kill Town--throttle towards a quicker win.

I still think two is absolutely best call but yeah it can put gems in kingmaker scenario easily

[Cerberus v666]

@Cerb: Well, yeah, I also didn't want it to be an outright easy call. I wanted the decision to be a harder one to make, with incentives for both sides:
Kill Crystal gems--remove pro-town, strong PRs.
Kill Town--throttle towards a quicker win.

You're making the mistake of thinking there was a choice to be made here.

There was no reason to believe there was any benefit to leaving the gems alone(other than the steven slot). None at all, at least not early enough in the game to choose to keep from killing them.

There WAS a benefit known to removing them all.

There's absolutely no reason why any intelligent party would believe they shouldn't target the gems.

If you wanted there to be some choice to make, you needed something in the scum teams factionals or roles that benefited from having more gems than just steven alive, otherwise the optimal play, barring godtier town players that the scum team didn't believe they could avoid, is to remove the slots most likely to have the largest mechanical strength, which also happen to supercharge your own team once they're all gone.

Cerberus seems reluctant to hydra with me. :/

I thought he wouldn't be opposed to that given his assertions that he likes me.

Sorry, Id like to hydra with you, just not sure when. I'm pretty sick of mafia. The delay in answering came because we can always hydra..but I won't always have people around making these assertions that I disagree with. The discussions were having are more immediate since I expect interest to wane, and these are things I'd like to talk about.

[Steven Quartz]

I'll talk to you laters then.

[Titus]

I am also kinda surprised that when I flipped no one suspected TWIE of lying about who the N1 kill was. I suppose that's because I didn't full tunnel on RR immediately (had reasons, I wanted RR to wear their PR like an albatross necklace). I'm not sure why. There was no nightkill. A PR flipped that was bulletproof to its ally, just tunnelled on scum, and the neighbor was reluctant to vote scum. It was true that grapes was shot, but I'm surprised that didn't turn into RR caught for the wrong reasons.

[Cerberus v666]

@Titus: whether you or mastin won was immaterial. We chose mastin purely for the sake of consistency in the plan I had outlined to you and yume.

It was though, and you should have aborted when I objected and you knew or should have know I was triggerring my IC. You did get Mastina a win, but at the expense of revealing a scum mastermind.

If you said, Titus will confirm herself as town most likely, we should elect Titus en masse and play to her pride, town gets a lot less info. Mastina looks better and thus I compromise onto Snarky/town faster, rather than leading a DGB lynch. There's also less data on numbers with split wagons. We had a three pronged equation with the division instead of there are x many group scum.

The beachapalooza vote division was meaningless. It ended up being useless because of the NC/Farside votes(which we expected, btw. Not them exactly, but that some alliance would make the floor 5 votes). Matin was right that it was never used to lynch someone, and it never could have been used.

Seriously, the event wasn't important other than giving mastin a gunsmith.

Revealing that there was a "mastermind" also wasn't important. None of the arguments against us that were substantial were based on that. Mastin tried a bit in the midgame, but it wasn't a threat.
The eventual choice she made was based off of her inability to absorb all the information available fast enough. I'm quote confident that had she had the time to actually respond to everything drixx was saying, and read through the rest of the game, she wouldn't have voted for us.


Granred, this is all hindsight. It's possible that it would have been BETTER to handle beachapalooza differently, but I don't believe it hurt us in any significant fashion.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, akso, ai agree that not killing the cgs was optimal. The problem is that killing crystal gems was sold to the scum team as a way to endgame faster, by gaining access to another vote.

So, we WERE taking the line thar ended the game the fastest, given the knowledge we had.

[TheFuzzylogic99]

RR- I don't know if I hate you or respect you bc you played me like a fiddle.

I think the game was an interesting mix of imbalance and bad scum playing, As Vasoon said a lot of the stronger scum got killed early in the game. I don't think scum expected to killed by an event.

The reason I did not use my shot the one day was bc I was being a goober and was not paying attention. This is typical FL99 play. In a way RR got lucky bc he would of likely got shot

I saved Snarky bc he was obvtown,,,,,, TBF I was concern that town was going to lynch him the next day which happened. I didn't want the scum to have a free kill. To me its all a number game

Vasoon..while this game def had flaws it was still a very fun and interesting game to play. I hope I can create such awesome games. Good game

[Varsoon]

@Cerb: Ah, I figured it was communicated enough via wincon of removing 'Earth-aligned' players.

[Varsoon]

<3 Fuzzy

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well the game is finally over … yay!

Good job with the Modding Varsoon. I know there was a good deal of recrimination in the Dead Thread but for a game with such huge complexity (and it was probably about 2.75 times as complex as most normally complex Large Themes) the fact that the only significant hiccup was the incorrect activation of Creature’s (I think, been too long at this point to remember for certain) ability when allied with Snarky Snowman is a testament to how well you actually did. I’ll be nominating this game for Paperback Writer in the next day or so … regardless of anything else the Flavor Write-ups and Action Results were excellently executed and well matched to the source material.

On the other side I don’t think there is really any way to judge if this game was “balanced”. It is just too complicated to effectively make that assessment. I think I said this in the Dead PT but Varsoon I think your games would be received 1000x more positively if you dialed back the complexity by about 2.5 levels. I know you may enjoy the creation process but maybe think about adding maybe one new wrinkle per game as opposed to working on multiple facets that might be considered “non-standard”. You do a good job but the complexity window you aimed for here (and Bloodborne) ended up making your job as a GM much harder on yourself than perhaps it needs to be.

I think frankly that no side played a clean game and there were enough mistakes made by pretty much every faction and player that sour grapes are not warranted. I don’t really care that the Gems lost due to the Survivor mechanic because scum was defeated and that was how I approached playing the game. I wish certain actions had been taken to have accelerated it by a couple of Days that would have let the Gems also win but c’est la via …

@Mastin

– congratulations on (finally) making the correct choice. What I said in the Dead QT still stands … I will do my honest best to avoid games you are committed to and hope you will reciprocate. Thank you!

[Varsoon]

@Magna: Thanks for the feedback and praise.
I'm definitely hoping to scale back my games--notably, I'll me running games in the 12 to 15 player range for awhile.