17 Kilos of Cocaine - [GAME OVER]

[Bulbazak]

Vote Grapes

[Bulbazak]

Spiffeh!

[Bulbazak]

Sup, Ceph!

(We're the best ever!)

[Bulbazak]

Unless we lynch you d1 and have pulled pork instead.

[Bulbazak]

@Ceph: You know, if you ever change your avi, that joke will not make sense.

[Bulbazak]

VOTE: chesskid

Serious vote

Do explain.

[Bulbazak]

To be fair, yours is not the vote that worries me the most.

[Bulbazak]

I have a sign that you can use.

But even though you were sarcastic, you're probably right that a similar reason will be given. I just saw your bandwagon vote and shrugged. I really didn't think it was that scummy, and there were worse ones on the wagon already.

[Bulbazak]

Agree to disagree. Heck, we can chalk it up to gut and call it a day.

[Bulbazak]

To be fair, yours is not the vote that worries me the most.

Who's worries you the most?

Reck

[Bulbazak]

Why do you think Reck's is the worst?

Gut

And why aren't you voting for him over someone who hasn't posted yet?

I'm waiting on the mod to see what happens.

[Bulbazak]

Probably. Still going to wait.

[Bulbazak]

[Bulbazak]

@Reck: Why'd you vote for Cephrir over UT? A fake vig in RVS seems kinda strange, especially when you follow it up with a second vote on a person.

[Bulbazak]

I'm actually kind of disappointed in Reck here

Why?

[Bulbazak]

The world may never know.

[Bulbazak]

VOTE: chesskid

Serious vote

Do explain.

[Bulbazak]

Oh also just a PSA I'm sure 90% of you know this but

Don't put people at L-1 until we decide who gets the SWEET SWEET COCAINE OH GOD I WANT IT

This is post scum makes more then town

I wasn't taking it too seriously.

[Bulbazak]

Be angry with me! It's not funny if you're not angry!

[Bulbazak]

Vote Bins

I'll take that action.

[Bulbazak]

@Ginngie: Be my +1?

[Bulbazak]

a better wagon will definitely come up because a dumb vague claim isn't enough to lynch someone on

anywho: it occurs to me that starting on day 2 and beyond, if we have a choice between lynching two people and one of them has hammered someone, we should lynch that person, because if they happen to both be scum, the one who theoretically might have the maximum amount of cocaine is the one to go with

Gut is telling me there's something incredibly wrong here, but I don't have the deep theory background to figure out what it is.

[Bulbazak]

I have gut scum reads on ActionDan and Ginngie and almost no town reads hooray

What are some of the things that lead you that way?

[Bulbazak]

VOTE: bulba

actually i go here

Oh? Do tell?

Is it bad that I think Reck trying pretty early on is so outside of the norm that I think he could be scum for it?

I've forgotten how I used to read most of the members on this site. So, I'm not sure whether I'd find this in the normal Reck variance or not. Seems okay.

[Bulbazak]

VOTE: bulba

actually i go here

Bulba

No. +1 meant I wanted you on Bins with me. But I could see how you made the mistake.

[Bulbazak]

bulba - why did you sheep fire?

Because I didn't like your vote on Cephrir, and I was waiting to hear from Reck. I figured it was the best way to get out of RVS. Also, the "gimme the coke" line was atrocious.

[Bulbazak]

these reasons are worse than if you had just said you had no reason

And your reasons are?

[Bulbazak]

uh, i didn't like your vote on me.

I didn't like your vote on Ceph. The timing was wrong.

and because i made a joke (which i then turned serious, yeah, but initially i had planned to just softclaim).

That "joke" sure turned serious quickly.

i haven't found anything especially town about your posts so far.

Ditto.

and you're sheeping fire.

So? Is there a reason that's scummy?

[Bulbazak]

this bulb vs bins thing seems pretty dumb

[Bulbazak]

@Gin: What was it about Elli liking Bins or her vote that pinged you? Because weren't you with Bins?

[Bulbazak]

I've been asking you on Bins for awhile. I'm feeling kinda snubbed.

[Bulbazak]

wait bulba did we know each other sorry I have a bad memory

I know we played in Fire Emblem: Awakening together. Can't remember if we've played together since then.

bulba - why did you sheep fire?

Because I didn't like your vote on Cephrir, and I was waiting to hear from Reck. I figured it was the best way to get out of RVS. Also, the "gimme the coke" line was atrocious.

I agree with Bins that these are bad reasons

It's a vote on Bins at this stage in the game. Were you expecting more?

[Bulbazak]

Not fake reasons. Bad reasons maybe. But not fake. If you want to argue fake, you need to say why you think they're fake.

[Bulbazak]

@Ginngie: Where'd this Bins reversal come from?

[Bulbazak]

Day 1 for mafia is so god damn awful. The memories of pointless arguments are rushing back in.

then why r u pushing me who u always seem to push wrong -.-

This is scummy.

[Bulbazak]

I read Firebringer's ISO and I decided he's scum because he's not acting the way he has acted in all the games I've played with him where he was town and that's ~*~proof~*~

VOTE: Firebringer

This is a scummy vote hop.

[Bulbazak]

Why?

[Bulbazak]

And i really liked the vote on fire, the way it came down etc.

Can you go into more detail on this please? I feel you're seeing more than I am, and I'm trying to understand the general reaction of that being a town post.

[Bulbazak]

Unvote
Vote Xyzzy

Well choo choo Kachoo then.

[Bulbazak]

Are you feeling left out, Bins?

[Bulbazak]

all i see is sheeping fire and i am confused

*ignores Bulba's multiple-stated scumread of Xyzzy*

[Bulbazak]

Bulbazak has to do a lot more to get a townread from me and if you know what's good for you you will also apply a rigorous standard to him

The scumread has everything to do with it, it makes more sense from a town mindset to engage a scumread and create noise/discussion there than with someone you don't have a read on when given the option.

That actually doesn't make sense at all. Yes you want to create discussion with a scum read to allow you to better read the slot, but that also applies to non-scumreads as well. If anything, focusing on just players you scum read to create noise is more likely to come from scum.

I guess this is already discussed on page 3, but I don't see much value in keeping it a secret who has 0.

To keep scum guessing? I mean, gee, why would we want to possibly tell scum who not to pay attention to?

I dont like Kagami btw

Agreed. Getting similar vibes to Xyzzy. With Hito, I was seeing someone trying to figure out the best way to use the mechanic in favor of the town. Not seeing that from Kagami, and it feels more like empty posting to appear townie. Xyzzy's contribution was just as empty, and I felt like he was trying to jump onto the same mechanic discussion bandwagon as Hito for easy town points.

[Bulbazak]

I am no longer interested in Kagami now.

[Bulbazak]

I don't really think xyzzy is terribly scummy. 316 strikes me as very strange, but 71 was a sentiment similar to one I had, not realizing that the typical scum-majority win condition was absent (since it's unnecessary), which would be more salient to scum-xyzzy

I found 164 to be the problematic post.

[Bulbazak]

I don't think we need to be attempting town blocs (which ar emostly a fake thing imo) on page 21 but knock yourselves out I guess

Town blocs tend to happen naturally. Whenever they're forced, it seems that things go south quickly.

I don't think that's what bins was doing, though. She was pushing you, a scumread, whether it's noise or not is irrelevant and probably my fault for wording it that way but you get what I mean.

I have no idea whether that was what Bins was doing or not. I'm more disturbed with your mindset concerning the interaction, and it's not one that I'd expect from town. That's what I was commenting on.

Think about it this way; how is bins gonna get a better read on actiondan by answering him about why she's scumreading you?

By seeing where he's coming from and where his mindset is. She can then counter-question him or open up a new line of inquiry to get a better read on Dan. These aren't mutually exclusive actions, and it is possible to get reads based on how another slot interacts with you.

My concern is that you are awfully quick to jump to Bins's defense. Do you have a town read on her?

Actually
Hold the fucking phone

search.php?author_id=20929&sr=posts
+

unvote, vote desperado

Desp's last post here: Thursday.
Desp's last post in a game (or in general): Saturday.

I can kinda see it, but he's not posting too much outside of this game, 4 times since here in total I think, so it may mean nothing. Let's wait and see if a pattern develops.

[Bulbazak]

I don't really think xyzzy is terribly scummy. 316 strikes me as very strange, but 71 was a sentiment similar to one I had, not realizing that the typical scum-majority win condition was absent (since it's unnecessary), which would be more salient to scum-xyzzy

I found 164 to be the problematic post.

I only see 164 as especially bad if bins is scum, and in that circumstance it's an exceptionally clumsy defense.

I was more looking at the second half, but, yeah, I think Bins is scum as well.

[Bulbazak]

Fb still scum ginngie is also a pretty good lynch

I don't have much of a read on Ginngie, but Fire is town. Keep up please.

Unvote
Vote Bins

[Bulbazak]

I'm still using

Scumhunting for Dummies

.

[Bulbazak]

And I don't think Bins or Wheme are all that scummy (from what I've read) so your list is p. bad

I'm not sure how I feel about that qualifier. I thought you were caught up, so I'm not sure why you felt the need to qualify your read of Bins and Wheme, especially when you immediately take a hard stance on Dan's reads. You essentially go moderate stance -> weak stance -> strong stance. It's giving me whiplash.

[Bulbazak]

I don't know where you got that progression of stances considering I've barely given a stance on anyone aside from gut reads this entire game

"I don't think Bins or Wheme are all that scummy"
Moderate stance. Not very strong, but not weak either. Appropriate for weaker early reads or gut reads. Appropriate if you're half-remembering or behind. Appropriate, even, if you have stronger reads and they're on your 'do not lynch' list.

"from what I've read"
This is where I have a problem. You give a perfectly reasonable response, and then you qualify it, as if to say "But if the lynch does go through and they flip scum, hey, I wasn't caught up, remember?". It gives you a way to distance from the reads if things go south. And even if you are behind, there's still no reason to try to create that sort of distance. You should still be displaying confidence, but using this qualifier shows that you are not.

"so your list is p. bad."
This does not fit the narrative of what you just finished saying. You just created a back door for yourself in case Bins or Wheme are scum, as if to say "Hey, I wasn't caught up! You can't blame me!", and now you're showing so much confidence that you're calling Dan out on his reads of Bins and Wheme?

[Bulbazak]

idk how to be more town but like im surprised im actually getting wagoned over other ppl? not sure if that's a fair reaction lol

What the crap is this?

[Bulbazak]

Can you answer that question?

[Bulbazak]

??


i really dont think its that crap

I'm trying so hard to act town, guys. Stop voting me! It's not faaaair...

I think Bins is town

Why?

[Bulbazak]

im just lowkey salty people dont realize I'm not in the mood to care right now and think voting me is gonna make me care.

Spoiler: I have a fix for that.

[Bulbazak]

why did I pick chess and kagami but not bulba for my 3-bloc? because bulbas playstyle is not as bloc-inclusive, even though it is part of what makes me feel so good about my town read.

Fair enough. It'll probably take me awhile to get to a PoE that I feel confident about, so I'm good with you three doing the heavy lifting.

I know I want to look back through my ISO today. Pretty sure there are some questions there that have been ignored. I just forget which ones.

[Bulbazak]

Okay. Apparently I'm imagining things.

[Bulbazak]

Katsuki replaces Untrod Tripod.

Oh no...

Unvote
Vote Katsuki

I will also accept any possible vigs taking a shot at him tonight.

[Bulbazak]

Ceph, Katsuki followed me from game to game for awhile claiming fake guilties on me until I had to blacklist him. I don't want to put up with that crap again.

[Bulbazak]

To give you an idea, my blacklist has maybe 3 names on it.

[Bulbazak]

I will use any pull I have in this game to make this lynch happen. I really don't care about the alignment. I just want Katsuki out of this game.

[Bulbazak]

Actually,

@Mod: Is it too late to Wisdom of the One this?

[Bulbazak]

@Kagami: Vote Katsuki for great justice.

[Bulbazak]

Vote Bins

[Bulbazak]

not expecting to have a good read on desp based on gut

Are you not caught up or something? This...just isn't right at all.

So I don't really have a reason to town read Bins or anything but there is such a huge contingent of players being pretty useless other than her (Ellibereth, Ginngie, xyzzy, Desperado, UT) that I'm curious as to why she's been really the only one out of this group to be singled out

I don't have a read on Elli. Ginngie and Desp I expect to pick up the pace if town, and I think I should be able to read them both better by the end of d2. UT has been replaced by Wicked, so I'm not interested in that. And Xyzzy is actually my strongest scumread, but we're getting close to deadline, and that wagon wasn't going anywhere. As for Bins, I'm getting a sense of artificiality from the slot. Her thinking just doesn't seem to mesh from a town perspective, and she's trying too hard to appear town. Things just aren't adding up there. Granted, she's not my strongest scum read, but she's definitely not a town read.

[Bulbazak]

You're "not expecting to have a good read"? Either you're not sure which read you want to fake on him yet, or you're just fencesitting because you don't want to commit. Either way, I don't like.

[Bulbazak]

buddy trying to pick away at a random town read as the day of reckoning draws near is a really bad look

now it's just a random townread?

Desp, trying for a semantics argument does not help my read for you.

@Bins: That's not backtracking. That's admitting that an early vote has weak reasoning, simply due to it being an early vote. I also wasn't sure how well I could read you at that stage of the game, and I was admitting that.

[Bulbazak]

@Ginngie: Didn't I get in an argument with you d1 and call you fake as well? I don't think it was about posting style, but it might have been about something else. I really can't remember how our throwdown went.

[Bulbazak]

@Ginngie: Didn't I get in an argument with you d1 and call you fake as well? I don't think it was about posting style, but it might have been about something else. I really can't remember how our throwdown went.

nope

just went back and read the fight

Cool. I would have done so as well, but that would have required effort that I'm not interested in giving atm.

[Bulbazak]

buddy trying to pick away at a random town read as the day of reckoning draws near is a really bad look

now it's just a random townread?

Desp, trying for a semantics argument does not help my read for you.

all I asked him was why is kagami town. hito has stated three times that kagami is an extremely strong townread and I don't understand how he got there already. there is a huge difference between cephs take on kagami and hitos and I think it's alignment indicative so I'm pushing it

He obviously meant that you picked a townread at random to pick away at, not that Kagami was chosen at random to be a townread or that the read is weak. Again, semantics arguments don't become you.

[Bulbazak]

@Desp: I don't care if you're questioning Hito on a read. I very much care that your point of attack is based on the word "random". It means that you either didn't put much thought into deciphering what Hito meant by what he said, or that you just didn't care. And if it's the second, that means that this is coming from scum Desp and not town Desp.

[Bulbazak]

Wow...just so much dumb...

With Hito, what's concerned me is that the questioning ignores context and the intent of Hito's posts. As has been noticed, Hito has had an incredibly strong townread of Kagami, and as for Desp, he's essentially been absent with no real reads of his own. Hito had also given a list of acceptable lynches that he'd like to see pushed. So given that, when Desp comes out of nowhere and votes one of his townreads, what do you

think

he means when he says Desp is "trying to pick away at a random townread"? This isn't exactly rocket science. So when Desp is picking a fight based on the word "random", he's either so clueless that he missed the entire freaking point of what Hito said, or that he's deliberately trying to pick a fight, just so it looks like he's doing something. If he wanted to question Hito on his Kagami read, that's fine, but picking a fight based on semantics is either dumb or scum. After everything that's just been said, it's looking like it might have just been dumb.

[Bulbazak]

Okay. I'll let Hito continue from here, because I don't care as much about why you're scumreading Kagami. I'm not, but I can see why others are.

[Bulbazak]

Yeah, I kinda missed it. I think I know where Hito is coming from, but I can't go further.

[Bulbazak]

Bins-

She's the leading wagon right now, but I haven't seen any good reason for that.

Because she reads incredibly fake, and no one believes a thing she's saying.

That whole point boils down to OMGUS (correct me if I'm wrong), which I generally read as townish if anything.

That's not why I'm scumreading her.

Several of her posts felt townish, including the soft claim

How did that feel town to you?

His play kinda reminds me of my last game with him - I believe that was Inorganic? - where I was also able to correctly townread him.

I was in Organic, not Inorganic. I decided I didn't want to slog through the sequel. I think I've played with you since, but I don't know which game it was. If I remember correctly from Organic, you did something similar, where I thought your reads came across as fake, and I ended up being wrong. Xyzzy is a good vote, but if you can't get that, would you be opposed to voting Bins?

bulbs has been on me all game and I'm still not sure if he's scum on me or town because of the tunnel

I've pushed Xyzzy more than I've pushed you, and I've actually said that he's a stronger scum read. I'm not getting where you think I've been tunneling you.

we'll need 4 more after dan gets back.

gingie, bulba, grapes, and wheme lets go.

Eh. Maybe later.

Unvote
Vote Xyzzy

[Bulbazak]

But I don't want to vote you!

[Bulbazak]

You seem to think that she should've dropped everything she was doing and 'inquired' into actiondan more to get a read on him at that particular time, which yea is something that she could have done but that's not really what we're talking about and is holding someone to a pretty high standard.

No. I think the way you swooped in and came to her rescue is a little suspicious.

I honesty liked the readlist from my PoV because it didn't include a scumread to jump on me or I guess any really opportunistic reads but I'll vote wicked at deadline

You're town, aren't you...

Prefer xyzzy

Then vote him.

Only because dan seems to have the support it's just nobody is voting him.

Not saying that means anything obviously just saying.

Xyzzy also needs to have another vote that isn't Fire rn lol

You mean besides me and Wicked?

[Bulbazak]

Several of her posts felt townish, including the soft claim

How did that feel town to you?

I just don't see why she would do that as scum. Seems like something that would attract unwanted attention. I would expect Bins-town to do that if she actually has a special role of some kind. Usually I don't see scum set up fake claims as early on as she softed, before she was even getting any heat iirc.

I don't have any doubt that she has a PR. I just didn't think it was town. I'm thinking custom PRs this game, so I don't think we'll be seeing too many fake claims.

I was in Organic, not Inorganic. I decided I didn't want to slog through the sequel. I think I've played with you since, but I don't know which game it was. If I remember correctly from Organic, you did something similar, where I thought your reads came across as fake, and I ended up being wrong.

Oh it was Mafiaception. If you think I am town, then I would appreciate your help on this. Because people are ignoring the fact that I have a clear play style difference, even after I gave clear examples, and you are the only one here that has experienced misreading me.

I don't have a solid read on you, atm. I do know that this is inside your norm as town, so I'm not reading any of this replace in nonsense as scummy. I just need to see more. However, I do like the Xyzzy read, and you're not my preferred lynch for today.

You mean besides me and Wicked?

i meant his vote not the votes on him

Oh. Okay. Why not vote Xyzzy?

P-edit: I'd only vote Elli as a compromise, and I have no interest in Gin today.

[Bulbazak]

I don't have any doubt that she has a PR. I just didn't think it was town. I'm thinking custom PRs this game, so I don't think we'll be seeing too many fake claims.

Why would a scum role need cocaone when they win by having it

Which faction is the most interested in getting cocaine?

Maybe it's just me that thinks scum are more likely to have 8 nullreads and write out a sentence for all of them.

I know. There's absolutely no reason to explain where you are on a read at all.

And then give a wallpost of self-meta.

Wicked does this all the time as town. At most, it's a null tell.

[Bulbazak]

Which faction is the most interested in getting cocaine?

You're the one who just said you didn't doubt she has a pr. Don't lose the thread please.

A lot of people are going "Well, Bins soft claimed a PR, so we can't possibly lynch her.", and my point is that regardless if she's a PR or not, how she claimed and the reason she claimed is highly suspect, and she could have easily done that as a scum PR or a goon. Essentially it boils down to "I have a role. Give me lots of cocaine please.". That's either anti-town or incredibly scum-sided, and either way, I'm not using it to clear Bins. Point of fact, that was one of the reasons I suspected her in the first place.

[Bulbazak]

are a lot of people saying that? i heard maybe 1 or 2 people say that. i just don't especially think she's scum.

It's the most common reason given for why someone doesn't want to vote Bins.

I'm voting xyzzy but I would also still be interested in voting Elli and Dan. Bulbazak, how do you feel about Elli? Besides me, he might have the most support.

I'd be willing to, but I don't necessarily have a strong read. Like, if we were talking about a spectrum of null, he'd be slightly on the scum side and you'd be slightly on the town side, but it's not really strong one way or the other.

[Bulbazak]

@ bulb null scum at deadline sounds like plenty to me. vote elli.

Prior to Wicked jumping ship, my strongest scum read was actually gaining traction as a wagon. I'd like to get that if possible.

[Bulbazak]

How can I say no to that face?

Unvote
Vote Ellibereth

[Bulbazak]

I also agree with Kagami's point about Wick being overly eager to provide meta to explain away people's problems with his catchup

That's just how Wicked operates. It's not alignment indicative.

@Hito: You can both be frustrated with your wagon and still be a strong PR. The two aren't mutually exclusive. And frustration doesn't necessarily have to do with the entire wagon. If there are a few townreads on there herpaderping and pushing the lynch, that can be incredibly frustrating too.

[Bulbazak]

That's just how Wicked operates. It's not alignment indicative.

An overeagerness to self meta in defense of his actions is how he operates?

Do you have some examples?

I believe the self-meta thing was what made me scumread him in Organic. I was completely wrong there.

I've already acknowledged that the big reads list for catch up goes along with his meta in general, but I found differences between the ones he cited from previous town games and the catch up he posted here that bother me. What do you think about them?

He's barely posted anything. My thought is to give him time and see how his reads evolve.

[Bulbazak]

Let's not forget that UT was Wick's predecessor and he collectively had the scummiest posts itg before he replaced out!

I found them kinda meh myself. Not really scummy. It was a solidly null slot.

Why is bins not happening? Elli wagon is stupid. Makes me really suspect too

Because you lot dissolved the Bins wagon by going after the shiny Wicked wagon.

[quote="In post 1081, chesskid3"if theyre town scum arent shooting an obvtown[/quote]

Yeah, scum's not doing that thing that scum obviously want to do. Chess, you're a riot. 2 claimed roles that likely accumulate cocaine? If they're both town, they're dead in a matter of days.

I'm interested in whether firebringer and bulb feel similarly to the way I do about this claim.

Even night vig? Seems unusual limitation-wise. However, I can see a vig existing as a means to counter the scum team's gameplan. By claiming, though, Wicked has essentially limited his usefulness, but that's neither here nor there, since there were several players pushing that slot to claim earlier than was necessary.

Elli is a policy lynch and nothing more.

Dude! You're not supposed to be sampling the product!

[Bulbazak]

Wicked is less useful now, if town.

[Bulbazak]

Ceph, here's the thing.

I'm a pretty weak PR, but my role does give me some insight into some of the mechanics of the setup.

An Even-night vig could be very elegantly implemented in a way that is very slightly weaker, but would be highly thematic and ties into a central mechanic. I was wondering if wicked was holding something back, but given the flavor, he's not. I think it's pretty unlikely that FG would have ignored this and created a straight-up even-night vig.

oh yeah also now I can say: Kagami's softlcaim is most of where my initial flip to townread came from, because it was done in a really convincing way. what made it convincing I will still not go in to detail on, but there are good softclaims and bad softclaims and Kagami's was great. (Kagami has thrown a lot of non-role townie brownies since then.) that is also part of why I was so put off by despse's probing initially

Same. That's why my read flipped so quickly. I saw that Kagami was softing, figured out what it likely was, and thought "Yep, that's town.", and moved away.

[Bulbazak]

Actually, I've thought about, and I think this is the right thing to do.

Unvote
Vote Wickedestjr

Even if town, he's just lost all the usefulness that his role provided him, and at this point, he's just a liability. A vig would be useful in this setup by being secret, and Wicked has just taken that and thrown it out the window. If he's town, scum knows who he is and who he's targeted, and they can use that to keep track of potential cocaine levels. Even if Wicked somehow shoots scum with his first shot, the team still knows how much cocaine that member had, and they can choose to pick Wicked off for that cocaine at any point they wish. In order to remain useful, any protective role we have would have to sit on Wicked for the rest of the game, and there's no way that's happening. At this point, regardless of alignment, the slot is better off dead.

[Bulbazak]

Also, if Wicked does end up being scum, I think I'll want Reck's head tomorrow.

[Bulbazak]

So funny story.

I visited kagami last night and I saw shit you won't believe.

Vote ActionDan

[Bulbazak]

Trying to decide if Desp is scum or not. You?

[Bulbazak]

Also Desp is town

Okay? Any reasons?

[Bulbazak]

Sorry, I didn't think it was connected. I'm still not sure that's townie. I'm seeing a lot of frustration from Desp regarding the tight Hito/Chess/Kagami bloc, and I'm not sure whether that's town frustration or scum frustration.

[Bulbazak]

So like xyzzzy is very very likely Town.

Really? I don't think so.

I think reckoner is town just on association to UT slot.

I don't know. I still get sketchy vibes from that. It's not as bad once I looked back and saw Reck was V/LA when Wicked replaced in, but I don't think he gets town points for his earlier interaction with UT.

Cephrir could be scum I think, though I have no thing that actually connects me to that it's just a general feel.

The only thing that makes me uneasy with the slot is the "Let's wait for the vig shot." line of reasoning. I think at least one scum would have tried to use that or similar reasoning to save the utility Wicked could have provided.

[Bulbazak]

If it's dan, wick and bins ur a god

I don't think Bins is scum.

It's possible they have a traitor but no a four man team for 17 player game with 1.5 kills is a bit too much.

I thought I had read somewhere that there were 4 scum in this game, but I can't find it.

[Bulbazak]

Ask Fire. Apparently, that makes you town.

[Bulbazak]

Unvote

I think I want the hammer today.

[Bulbazak]

Ask Fire. Apparently, that makes you town.

i mean you seemed to follow his train of thought?

i hardcore defended UT D1 off of a meta tell
and then his slot flipped scum

that should mark me as suspicious

And I said that you didn't get any town points for that interaction. I actually do think that your early interactions with UT are kinda sketchy given the flip. I actually thought that you were lying low during the Wicked wagon, but after I did an ISO dive, I saw that you were actually V/LA, so I find the whole thing not alignment indicative.

[Bulbazak]

Dan's guilty on Spiffeh feels really fake, btw. He waited until there was a "guilty" on him to give that information? Yeah...no.

[Bulbazak]

Dan's guilty on Spiffeh feels really fake, btw. He waited until there was a "guilty" on him to give that information? Yeah...no.

It's clearly a joke

Vote Cephrir

[Bulbazak]

@Chess: You can join me on Ceph for awhile.

[Bulbazak]

Ginngie, please tell me you got why I voted Cephrir.

P-edit: A "Oh, he was only joking! He didn't mean it!" on top of yesterday's "Let's leave the claimed vig alone until he can use his shot."? I don't think so.

[Bulbazak]

Yeah, but I'm holding out for the hammer.

And if Dan is scum, then it's game throwing to keep Cephrir from the rope.

[Bulbazak]

@Hito: So how

do

you think scum react to the Wicked wagon and the claim? I have two different camps I'm considering, but I don't think there's more than one in each camp. I think we have varied responses here, and I just want to nail them down.

I'm going to go back and reread. If that reaction from Dan really is a joke, I'm not sure how I feel about that wagon overall.

[Bulbazak]

Unvote
Vote Xyzzy

Dan's 1v1 was mediocre, and I'm not happy with it, but Xyzzy's vote was bad.

[Bulbazak]

@Hito: So how

do

you think scum react to the Wicked wagon and the claim? I have two different camps I'm considering, but I don't think there's more than one in each camp. I think we have varied responses here, and I just want to nail them down.

I think largely ignoring it and pushing your own pet wagon, which plenty of folks did, is probably the most likely reaction. Doing what Cephrir did but going all in on it is another possible one, but I don't think anyone did that. Chess's reaction is also one I would maybe expect, where you try to force out the claim (because you think it'll be very strong) and frame it as a 1v1 with the PRs. (I don't think Chess is particularly likely scum, just that

specifically

his reaction to Wicked-wagon would make sense as a scumbuddy.)

I looked back over the reactions to the vig claim yesterday, and Ceph wasn't the only one that used the vig claim as a reason to back off. He just wasn't the most subtle about it. There was one other, and they were not as blatant as Cephrir. I'm just trying to figure out whether scum react in that way or not.

I still have trouble seeing xyzzy as scum here. It really looks like Wicked very deliberately tried to slow-roll his claim until we had very little time left so we would panic converge on xyzzy. Seems like a really weird situation to cross-bus.

The Xyzzy wagon had a hard time gaining traction. If there was a mass exodus from Wicked to a last second panic wagon, it would have been on Bins.

[Bulbazak]

All Wick has done is post his initial reads list and whine about people scum reading him for play style reasons

There's been no effort to sort any of the ~8-10 people in his null category and he's resorted to AtE instead

Kagami and hit have explained pretty well why an Even Night Vig role doesn't exist

Ut was scummy and I doubt (although not certain) that he would replace out if he was a vig

@spiffeh this is the specific post i'm voting you for

Why is this scummy?

[Bulbazak]

I think Spiffeh is more likely to be town here. There is one matter that I'm not satisfied with, but I'd like to hear more from Spiffeh first to see if that clears up.

[Bulbazak]

Wicked was done in by his claim. Otherwise, there would have been a last minute switch on Bins. I don't think he was anticipating that, and I think there was some sort of movement to disband the wagon. The idea of lynching Bins was always running counter to Wicked. She's town here, and scum were either trying to engineer that lynch or defend her.

[Bulbazak]

I'm still not sure Elli didn't hard bus Wicked. His trajectory doesn't make sense.

[Bulbazak]

Well

looking at the games dan gave me, ellie doesn't look that aggressive in the game

posting style is the same but the content is different.

like the scum games look posting to post and just lazily following with the game

different vibe I'm getting here

That's exactly the vibe I got from Elli's d1.

why does anyone bother engaging with bulb about his reads when everyone knows ignoring them and doing the opposite is generally best?

It's better than just showing up, telling everyone how awesome I am, and then doing jack squat.

[Bulbazak]

So, Chess, why is Elli town?

[Bulbazak]

Okay. So Chess is going to be worthless. That's cool.

P-edit: Maybe. Regardless, she's not ever hammering again. One hammer is all anyone gets.

[Bulbazak]

I'm working on it. I don't trust Elli's list. I can't see how he reached those conclusions, and saying "Hey! Game's solved! Let's only lynch from here." is setting off my spidey-sense. I have parts of the game somewhat sorted, but there's also a huge nebulous area, and there are some things that still aren't making sense to me. I'm nowhere near PoE level yet, and I never reach that degree of certainty this early in the game. We know too little, and I think that might bite us.

Right now, I can't see how Elli got to Wicked-scum. He has UT on a list, but that's a not-town list, instead of a scum list, and there's no reasoning given on any of the reads whatsoever. UT would undoubtedly be a null read, so that's okay. Next mention of the slot we have is Elli parroting Kagami's reasoning and pushing Wicked with no lead in whatsoever. There's no independent work coming from the slot, whereas Kagami and Hito were active in their role in pushing Wicked, and "Wicked is not posting reads right away" is shallow in the way that "Desp logged on yesterday" is shallow. The day then essentially ends on "Hey! Here's a list! We have it sorted guys!" and a congratulatory back slap

before the flip

. There's nothing there that makes me think Elli came to the conclusion of Wicked being scum by himself, and I can see the benefit in Elli hardpushing his partner just to put himself in a better position the following days.

[Bulbazak]

Bins was always on the backburner the entire day.

[Bulbazak]

I don't think it's reasonable to say the claim sunk him, or that the alternative was bins and not elli, I don't think those wagons ran against each other and even if they had it wouldn't make bins town.

Wicked was lynched due to the backlash to his claim. If you don't believe that, go back and reread from the time he claimed until he was lynched.

[Bulbazak]

Pressure maybe? Do you have another theory, Gin?

[Bulbazak]

The claim was clearly meant to disband the wagon, but it did the exact opposite. He was at L-3 prior to the claim. Then Chess and Elli did some vote hopscotch. Remaining 3 were me, you, and Xyzzy. And I don't know about you, but I voted him because of the claim. I'm not sure if Wicked would have been lynched otherwise, because the interest just wasn't there. I felt the reasons given were weak, and from your reactions that day, I know you did too. Without that claim, that wagon would have dragged out until the very end, and the last minute panic votes would have either landed on him, or more probably, would have all migrated to Bins. This isn't about whether he was scumread before the claim, but rather would he got lynched without it.

[Bulbazak]

I mean, we can get tied up in this Wicked claim nonsense, but the real question and point of contention is who would have been the default deadline lynch if Wicked fell through.

[Bulbazak]

I really don't think Xyzzy or Elli had the support that people are saying they had.

[Bulbazak]

I'm considering something else, but I need to wait for Spiffeh.

[Bulbazak]

My fear is that we're going to get sidelined. I've got some more thoughts, but I'll come back to them later when I'm feeling more up to posting in the thread. They can keep and aren't important today.

I'm still waiting on Spiffeh. If he doesn't post within a day and explain what he said he would, I'll turn his crappy little world upside down. I'm starting to think this is not a coincidence.

[Bulbazak]

Welcome back. Let's talk.

My scum pool is {ActionDan, Desperado, Reck} currently btw

I'll explain when I'm sober

[Bulbazak]

I'll hold you to that.

[Bulbazak]

no-one cares bulb spiffeh is town

Maybe. I'm concerned that he put on quite a show d1 to get a townread and then kinda vanished. And the way he responded when I last posted shows he's following along but choosing not to post, which is concerning when he's making a big deal about having some reads he wants to explain. And there's one other thing of concern for me, but I'm hoping that he'll actually show up today so we can talk more.

If I vote will someone hammer

Probably. L-2 might as well be the new L-1 in this game. So I'd expect a quickhammer from someone. I'd hold off for now, because there's still a bit that needs to be sorted, even if it's just me with Spiffeh and Hito with whatever he wants to say.

Who looks esp bad re: wicked and d1

I've been trying to talk about this, but I keep getting shut down.

[Bulbazak]

Gin, nobody can help with Chess. We can try to work around him, but I think that'd be better another day. If you want, we can talk and try to figure out where the last 2 probably are, seeing as Dan is likely flipping scum.

[Bulbazak]

Explain Elli, because I'm not seeing the progression in his reads at all, and I think it would have been very easy for him to have hard bussed Wicked.

[Bulbazak]

Hmm... I can accept that. I was just having a problem with how the Wicked vote progressed, and that there's been no evolution at all from him. He's just trying to hard push things through as quickly as possible without any discussion, and that bothers me. Add to that, no one else was explaining the town read. I felt that if anyone was scum that could slip through and sideline everyone, it'd be him.

Bins is town based on yesterday. She's always pushed d1, and no matter what is being said, she was always yesterday's alternative. I think Wicked was buddying her, and I also think some other scum were WKing her as well. I was coming to this conclusion at the end of yesterday as well, so I'm not interested there.

Wheme is probably town, but it's a weak read. I feel a little bit better about Reck after our last talk. Not outside the realm of possibility, but I doubt it. Ceph I'm iffy on.

I need some time with Spiffeh. However, if I start hard scumreading him, you'll know it, and it'll make a lot of sense.

[Bulbazak]

The only remaining name that is likely scum is Xyzzy. Bins and Desp are town, and Reck will probably end up being town as well.

P-edit: For scum? Me too, but mainly because I think he was WKing Bins.

[Bulbazak]

The argument with Dan. Regardless of Dan being scum or not, the only purpose of that argument was to defend Bins, not sort Dan. That sort of fight was something Bins could have done herself if she felt like it. All Grapes did was come in like a knight in shining armor to defend Bins from the dastardly Dan.

[Bulbazak]

Why is Grapes town?

P-edit:

[Bulbazak]

Ginngie's town.

@Desp: Stop it. We both know that Spiffeh is scum here.

[Bulbazak]

Elli would want to be the hammer if that's the case. He's not. We need to be thinking about this game differently.

[Bulbazak]

Chess, the reason you want Ginngie to be lynched would put you and Elli in the same boat for trying to end the day before Spiffeh or Hito checked in. Ginngie's move was actually pretty town. She's town. Get over it. Spiffeh is active lurking and is actively trying to avoid content. And I have proof.

[Bulbazak]

Did you have something you want to say about Spiff?

[Bulbazak]

She stole your hammer. Boo freaking hoo! You deserved it.

[Bulbazak]

If it wasn't for the fact that I'm pretty sure Spiffeh is scum, I'd be reevaluating my assumptions on how this game would be played based on that move of yours and Elli's.

[Bulbazak]

@Gin: I'm going to eat and chillax first. We can talk more when I get back. But rest assured, Spiffeh is scum.

[Bulbazak]

Elli would want to be the hammer if that's the case. He's not. We need to be thinking about this game differently.

no we don't

the cocaine is a red herring...the last scum bussed twice because ut wasn't here and then replaced out and the tide turned against wicked pretty quickly and dan was apparently obvscum

they would intentionally not go for the hammer because all that does it put the target right back on them

The cocaine wincon means that scum don't have to play like they normally would. I mean, we could still have scum in the middle of wagons or lazy scum, but the setup would seem to reward scum who would want to take risks. I'm still scumhunting as normal, but after watching Eli, Chess, and Ginngie yesterday, it made me realize that it's possible I'm looking at the game the wrong way in regards to play.

K. Ginngie gets no more hammers, chesskid gets the next 1-2 and you dont touch his cocaine hito. All parties agreed to this to spread out the points of failure?

You can have the next hammer if you want, but that's it. Let it spread out.

but i also dk why scum in this position would truthfully claim it

Scum have been truthfully claiming so far. There's still no guarantee the remaining scum will, but given what we've seen, maybe it's a strategy of theirs. And if that's so, we may have to assume that all of these claims will be truthful when it comes to roles.

Lieutenant and Captain 2 delayed cops it's not wholly unreasonable.

anyway lets hold off k?

Delayed sounds wrong to me. There was no indication from Kagami that his role was delayed. And this is the second time Firebringer has brought up the judge, who was also supposed to allow him to use a vig shot.

I think massclaiming is stupid and would like everyone to stop claiming now

This is strange coming from the guy who was all for me revealing the existence of the neighborhood last night and who threatened to reveal it himself.

I CC 2-shot BP and I checked with the mod I am notified any time a shot is used.

We're lynching here as soon as popcorn is done thanks.

popcorn to reck

Why would you want coke then? Didn't you say that it activated your role?

[Bulbazak]

Fair enough. I was just double checking on the activation thing. Also, if you're assuming Bins is scum, then it's possible you were the NK last night, and you only have to be shot 2 more times.

[Bulbazak]

I've gotten a townread on Desp from the neighborhood. He feels more like paranoid town than scum. First, I don't think he posts in the neighborhood last minute d1 to rally votes onto the Elli wagon as scum. That'd be something he'd try in the main thread. Also, the paranoia of Kagami/Chess/Hito read as genuine, and I don't think he'd be so vocal on someone in that group being scum on the same night that Kagami gets killed. As scum, he'd know that was going to happen. With only one post for the night, going full paranoid on a slot you know is dead kinda defeats the purpose. Desp is someone who is very much untrusting and confused, and he's slamming his head against a wall while he tries to figure out what's going on.

Spiffeh's been bothering me for awhile. I thought that his opening play felt off, like it was trying to look town while not being town. I'm not sure I can explain it better than that. I've played with town Spiffeh before, and I felt he was just trying too hard during those opening days. I also think his Wicked vote was pretty weak compared to the others who were pushing the slot, like Kagami or Elli. It was like he looked and saw that Wicked was going to be lynched, and then he found a way to justify a vote on the wagon (I remember talking about Wicked's play at the time, specifically responding to him, but he ignored it). As for his absence, the thing that bothers me is that he

is

paying attention. Right after I pushed hard that I thought he was scum avoiding the thread and that I was giving him a day to post or I would hard push him, he immediately showed up to say that he wasn't reading. When I posted in the neighborhood last night (about 24 hours after I posted saying I was giving him a day and would await content and for him to explain his reads) that I thought he was active lurking and that I would reveal the existence of the neighborhood and that he hadn't posted once, he immediately posted to say that he didn't trust neighborhoods, wouldn't be posting, he still hadn't read anything, and that I could try, but no one would lynch him. So essentially, I just threatened him again, and he showed that he had been reading the thread/PT enough to know that he was suspected and someone was going to do something about it (Desp and I had been suspicious for awhile, but we never made an effort to push it). If he was town who knew he wasn't going to use the neighborhood (because screw them), it would have been easy enough to write a post saying as much at the beginning of the game. Not only that, but it was night. Spiff had time to pay attention to the PT, but he still couldn't catch up? Heck, he could have at least posted what I had asked him to in the thread 24 hours before, like the reasons for those reads that he promised us oh so long ago. He had one post that he could have attached more to, but he just used it to say "Nope. Not posting here. Don't suspect me!". Also, after Hito posted, I don't think that was a random joke from Dan. Dan told the truth about his role, and he probably also told us who killed Kagami, assuming it'd just be taken as a joke and written off.

And one last thing that Desp didn't mention about the neighborhood: When one of us dies, it's permanently locked and made public. So everything I just said is verifiable.

[Bulbazak]

This is strange coming from the guy who was all for me revealing the existence of the neighborhood last night and

who threatened to reveal it himself

.

This literally never happened?

Spoiler: Spiffeh threatens to reveal the neighborhood

LMAO Bulba do you want to explain to the class why you're "almost certain" I'm scum or should I?

I'm a Town GroupMe neighbor and Night 3 Drug Maker

I create an additional kilogram of cocaine at the end of night 3

so I will have one more kilogram this time tomorrow

This is a fake claim. Desp didn't claim a role in addition to being a neighbor, and I can confirm that I'm a neighbor only. Spiffeh claiming to be a drug maker is not consistent with our roles, and drug maker is not a town role. In a game where town want to keep cocaine to a minimum and keep it out of scum's hands, a drug maker would not be attached to a town role PM.

Vote Spiffeh

[Bulbazak]

Yes because a neighbor has never had another role before

In a game with consistent roles, your role is completely inconsistent, and your secondary role plays into the scum wincon.

why have scum have a role where they can make their own cocaine while having 1.5 to possibly 2 kills per night? 0.o

Scum have not been hammering. The flipped roles are vig and self-watcher. There is a role that burns cocaine. You don't think scum have a way to regain lost cocaine?

[Bulbazak]

You essentially scum claimed, Spiffeh, and the only saving grace is that everyone else wants to chase after the shiny Bins wagon. Again.

[Bulbazak]

Have fun losing the game, Elli. If you look back at the claims, there's a level of consistency there. Spiffeh does not fit that.

[Bulbazak]

Remember when I said scum were telling the truth about their roles? That's exactly what Spiffeh did, only nobody else is noticing what is severely wrong with that claim. And I gave other legitimate reasons, and no one else wants to consider them because "Herr ded der... We have this game locked. It's even on a list.".

[Bulbazak]

ALIVE

1. Ellibereth - VT
   
2. chesskid3 - 2-shot BP
   
3. Spiffeh - GroupME Neighbor + Day 3 Cocaine Maker
   
4. Bins - 2-shot BP
   
5. Bulbazak - GroupME Neighbor
   
6. Ginngie - ???
   
7. Desperado - GroupME Neighbor
   
8. xRECKONERx - Odd Night Vig
   
9. Cephrir - Loud Roleblocker
   
10. WhemeStar - Judge
    
11. xyzzy - 1-shot Cocaine Gifter
    
12. grapes - VT
    
13. Firebringer - Cocaine Cop
    
14. hitogoroshi - Cocaine Stealer and Burner

Dead

1. Untrod Tripod
   Wickedestjr, who was
   Gustavo "Off-key" Lopez
   ,
   Street Musician
   , and
   Mafia

   Even-Night Vig
   , has been
   lynched
   in
   Day 1
   .
   
2. Andrius
   Kagami, who was
   Kenneth "Kenny" Bolrus
   ,
   Captain
   , and
   Town

   Cocaine Cop
   , has been
   killed
   in
   Night 1
   .
   
3. ActionDan, who was
   Eunie "Yum" Sang
   ,
   Deli Shopkeeper
   , and
   Mafia

   1-shot Bulletproof Self-Watcher
   , has been
   lynched
   in
   Day 2
   .

[Bulbazak]

Bulba, Bins was roleblocked and no kill went through. You really think that's because this game has BOTH an informed BP AND an uninformed BP, both named BP but with different mechanics, and that scum shot Bins for god knows what reason even though there's like five psuedo-confs they have to work through after the righteous Wicked wagon? On the strength of her soft claim even though both Chess and myself were ALSO softing while simultaneously being, y'know, direct advocates of both scum lynches?

Reck claimed to have shot Bins n1. Bins also came in thinking she might have been the NK, which fits if you're an uninformed BP. I think it's something she would do as town.

@Chess: Were you notified that you were shot last night?

[Bulbazak]

Sorry. Reck was RB n1. I still want to hear from Chess.

[Bulbazak]

Ginngie still needs to claim.