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Post Post #100 (ISO) » Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:19 am

Post by Garmr »

Cooldog wrestle counters block even through block is a powerful skill but it's not the end of everything.
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Post Post #101 (ISO) » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:22 pm

Post by Sudo_Nym »

[quote="In post 99, MonkeyMan576"][/quote]

Basically, yeah. You can't predict the outcome of every die roll, but you can position your players so as to minimize the risk on your side. A lot of the game is about trying to reduce the number of risks you have to take while increasing the risks the opponent has to take. Which, I grant, can be frustrating, since it's not necessarily obvious how to go about doing this. Nonetheless, there's a reason why good players tend to win consistently in spite of the random factor.

Also, the AI is terrible, and the idea that playing against the AI is in any way indicative of the game's quality is awful.
One time, back in 'nam, Sudo was set upon by an entire squadron of charlies. He challenged them all to a game of Pictionary, which he won resoundingly. The charlies were forced to not only surrender the skirmish, but also their world-famous chili recipe, which Sudo sold to Texas for a hefty profit. Sudo is a master of diplomacy.
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Post Post #102 (ISO) » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:36 pm

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Playing against live players in fumbbl is the best way to go in my opinion. The quality of play on that site is outstanding. They are truly world class players for the most part. And for the most part very friendly to newbies. Not in the sense of going easy on them, but as far as giving advice.
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Post Post #103 (ISO) » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:44 pm

Post by MonkeyMan576 »

Here's a good strategy article for the newer coaches from the fumbbl forums:


This article is for new(er) coaches, and/or anyone who seems to not be able to hang on to the ball when they get it. Enjoy.


(NOTE - TLDR warning:
This is not a quick topic, so this is not a quick throw-away post; it's an article. Grab your favorite beverage and have a read.

If that's too long for you, sorry, blame the educational system, find someone who is willing to sit down and explain it all to you.

GL with that.) Confused


I just watched a painful game where the receiving coach must have thought that their ballcarrier was safe at the end of Turn 1, but he was dropped without much problem on the D's Turn 1, and so that coach was scrambling the rest of the half until the "Defense" scored, and then that was all repeated again before T8, and basically again in the 2nd half. And that made me think of this recent thread, which is a common thought for new(er) coaches - "How do I get to not be rubbish at BB?"

Many coaches suck early in their careers because they give away the ball - you receive, your ballcarrier gets blitzed, you lose the ball, the opponent scores, repeat, game ends 0-2 or (much) worse. Sound familiar? And while only part of the game, that, alone, might be one of the easier parts to address.

And rather than reply in that other thread, I thought I'd just start a new one on a specific topic central to "not being rubbish" - ball security.
(Note - First you want to know how the most common Skills work, and you want to learn how to make 2d Blocks, etc. Read The Rules - you need to know how to ~play~ the game before you can start to learn how to ~win~ the game.

Also seek advice on starting roster and early skill choices - good skills = a good team, rubbish choices = a rubbish team. Easy to have a very "skilled" team that still can't do anything meaningful. Wink)

What is "ball security"? Simple - it's protecting the ball if it's on the ground, or the Ball-Carrier* once you have it in hand. As long as you have the ball protected, your opponent can't score, and that's Step 1 to winning (or at least not getting trounced!).

(* Which we'll term BC for short in this article. Sometimes we'll just say "ball" and mean either - the ball on the ground or the BC.)

(Note - On Defense, it's the opposite - threatening and countering ball-security. That's more advanced, but will start to makes sense after you understand the Offense side.)


So - when is the ball 100% safe?
o When it's beyond MA of any opponent.
That's it! If you can achieve that, you're good - 0.000% chance of losing it to the Defense. Anything else is a "non-zero %" chance, anything else is a possible steal (even if highly improbable or unattractive).

And that often happens on the Kick Off, or when you break through a slower team with a fast ballcarrier - but that's rare. So we're going to talk about keeping the ball "safe" during a drive.


So... when is the ball "mostly" safe, or "safe enough"? How do you make the position so unattractive to the Defense, the odds so bad, that they won't even risk it, and if they do they should certainly fail.

Well, ignoring the obvious "The ball is never 'safe enough'!", there is a checklist for "safer", simple goals that the Offense wants to achieve and maintain to avoid an easy defensive steal, and hopefully never offer the Defense an opportunity that looks attractive enough to risk.

That last part sounds simple, but is an important advanced concept - if you can make the risk so ugly that the Defense never tries, then they'll never succeed. Otoh, if they try, they always ~might~ succeed - 4's, 5's and 6's happen, just like 1's - so, as a starting coach, you never want them to even try. Wink

(Note - There actually are times when it's very difficult to make the risk high enough, when the BC is always un-safe almost anywhere within MA - vs. Leapers, vs. Vampires with their Hypnotic Eye, vs. TTM, vs. Stunty or high-Agility Dodgers and/or high-Strength Break Tackle, vs. a Wizard, vs. some Cards - and against dumb bad luck. Those are advanced headaches, and we'll comment on those at the end.

There are also times when you want them to try, but (hopefully) fail. That's VERY advanced - only mentioning it out of recognition to those coaches who understand it, and so you might know it when you see it, even if only after the fact. Wink )

------------------------------------------------

So, you're on Offense, and the Kick Off lands somewhere within MA of the Defense - what do you have to do to keep the ball safe?

The basic idea is: take actions so that, if the next die-roll were to fail, the ball would be as safe as possible RIGHT NOW.

That means (in rough order)...

1) Before rolling dice, screen a loose ball.

Move 2 players to in front of the ball, on diagonals to it, like this:
Code:
X
b ( -> Defense)
X

Doesn't ~have~ to be adjacent to the ball, but that's a good place for generic purposes (and see #2, next).

That makes the Defense run around them, or Blitz 1 out of the way to get to the ball. The 2 players could be moved 3 apart (widening the screen), and/or away from the ball, but the idea is to prevent any direct route to the loose ball. Sometimes the LoS will act as part of the screen, or as a 3rd man - that's fine, the more the merrier (within reason). The goal is, if something fails and your turn ends before you have the ball in hand, to prevent the D from simply walking up and grabbing the ball, or (multi-)marking it to make it harder for you to grab it.

Many coaches ignore this simple starting tactic, and trust to a 3+ Sure Hands Pickup, or 2+ w/ Team RR. Fails happen. Snakes happen, skulls happen before the pickup attempt. Having 2 players (+ the (empty-handed) ballcarrier?) near the loose ball changes a disaster into a contest, often one still in your favor.

Note - This also means that, if you ~have~ to make some Blocks or a Blitz to free some players, make 1 Block, and then MOVE that 1 free player before rolling more dice! Make the ball safe RIGHT NOW, BEFORE the next die roll!

(This can also be done on any loose ball, putting your "screen" of players between the ball and the opposition.)

This also achieves #2...

2) Before rolling dice, put TZ's on a loose ball.

TZ's make a Defensive pickup harder, and "force" the D to blitz someone away so they can just try.

#'s 1 & 2 are often combined to secure a loose ball before you try to pick it up.

Sidesteppers and Stand-Firm are great, b/c they can't be blitzed into the ball, where the bounce may change everything.

If you don't have those skills, combining both a screen out 2 squares front of the ball and TZ's behind make the ball more and more secure, but that's probably(?) too many players for most T1 situations.

It can also be effective to simply "secure" it in this way, and try to pick it up next turn, or not at all!

(This is also very common for the Defense when there's a loose ball, to challenge the opposition for the ball, but that's why you have your Screeners (#1, above).)

Note - when possible, if you have the players free to move, use these tactics where any ball-exchange action will occur, moving them to where a Pass or Handoff or Catch will be attempted. If the action fails, you have the area "secure" in advance, and the fail is minimized.

This is also VERY important if you have to take a risk with the BC. If he has to make a Dodge, if he has to GFI (and you have free players*), move them to "secure" the area where he may trip first.

(* No sense in risking a Team RR w/ a diff player if you need to save one for the BallCarrier - he's the priority.)
3) Choose the best Ball Carrier.

If the opponent has little or no Tackle, then Dodge is great! If no Wrestle, then Block is great! A "Blodge" Ballcarrier is almost always best, but if the opposition has a Strip Ball, you may want Sure Hands. If a nasty Leaper or St 2 Stunty Dodge Wrestle/Stripper, you may want a St 4 as your ballcarrier to force -2D's (or worse!).

If you have a player who needs 3 spp to skill but is not a great BC, then you have a decision - is it better to risk it, or start safe and see if you can make a handoff later for that skill? How important is ~this~ game, how important is it that player skills this game, how likely is it that he'll keep the ball to score?

Don't forget - it's quite acceptable to have an initial "Ball Handler", fully planning to Hand-off or Pass to someone else to "carry" the ball for the score or continued drive. Sure Hands is a nice cushion for the initial Pickup. If the cage collapses and the BC is marked, Low Agility players may be better to Hand Off to someone without moving rather than Dodge away.


Evaluate the threats, present the toughest target to the Defense. Have a plan, but don't be afraid to change plans as necessary.

(But remember #'s 1 & 2 when making that Handoff or Pass!)


Note: As a corollary to this, on your team, develop a good ballcarrier. Block, Dodge + Sure Hands are the core, followed by Side Step (altho' not all races/positionals have easy access to those). Ag 4 helps a lot, as does +MA. Get what you can, profit.

4) Cage the Ballcarrier, and plan the cage in advance!

This cannot be stressed enough for a new coach - if you form a cage, the BC is "safe". As long as the BC stays safe, there's always "next turn". Too many coaches sacrifice the cage and ball security for a couple extra MA, opening the door for the Defense and disaster. Don't do that.

A classic cage is simple - Ball Carrier in the middle, w/ 4 players around them, 1 on each corner:
Code:

X X
B
X X

The defense can blitz a corner out of the way, but can't (easily) get to the ballcarrier.

If possible, form the cage BEFORE you roll any other dice - or as much as possible. Why? As said at top - so if something fails, the ball is safe.

A no-roll, 100% guaranteed safe cage has 3 requirements:

o 5 players - ballcarrier + 4 others.

o All Players unmarked, cage not beyond MA: No Dodges, no GFI's.

o When the cage is formed, no corner adjacent to a standing* player, and no Prone player adjacent to the BC (Stunned is no threat)
(* or Jump Up).

If you can do that, then you can build your cage 100% without a die roll and the Defense has no real shot at the ball. If you don't have that, then try to get it with the FEWEST and SAFEST rolls possible - Blitz the ball carrier free and move that same blitzer to form a cage corner, etc. etc.

You can also "half-cage" on the sideline, but that leaves nowhere to run if you are pressed in.
Code:

______________
B
X X

<-Defenders->


You ~can~ spread the corners of the cage out so that they are up to 3 squares apart, with the BC somewhere in that 2x2 middle area. However, if a corner is Blitzed away, there is more room for the opposition to press in. It also means that dodging into the cage only faces 2 TZ's, not 3. Be over-safe rather than over-risky.


Note - As an advanced technique, you can also double-mark a single standing opponent on a corner, so they can block one or the other away, but not both, at worst leaving a spread cage. You never want to leave a corner marked by a standing player, not even w/ your St 5 BG - that's inviting the -2d, and if your man falls or is just Pushed back, the corner can become open to a Blitz on the BC.

Remember - if the Defense isn't tempted, they'll never try, and if they never try... Wink

NOTE: If the Kick Off is deep and your opponent fast, you may want to guarantee enough players to fall back and form a safe cage (or at least a screen, see next) deep in your own half. This is especially important vs. the Kick skill - classic v. Cagers is to Kick deep, force the cage to form deep, isolate/attack them there. Consider starting with 5 players off the LoS, and/or not Blocking with everyone possible.

If you're at the extreme range of the Defense's MA, a "half-cage" screen, in front of the ballcarrier, may be adequate. BUT - always plan for "next turn" - have enough players nearby to form that 5-man cage if/when/where you need it.

(Pro Tip: In the FUMBBL Client, you can "label" any empty square of the field the same way you label a player, with [Shift + Right Click]. Count the MA (of all 5 players), plan the 4 corners, build the cage.

Also good for planning Passes or labeling how far the Defense can Blitz, etc.)

5) If you can't cage, screen.

A classic cage is reliable in part b/c it's easy to form correctly - it's either right or it's not. But a cage is small, and often easy for the Defense to get in front of.

As a cage starts to spread out away from the BC, it becomes "a screen", with players out beyond the BC but still (hopefully) standing between them and the Defense. But you have to get it right, because a hole in a screen is no screen at all.

A cage is also nice b/c if the BC is marked you have support adjacent to the BC to block him free. If you can place at least 1 player adjacent to the BC that can be great as a 2nd line of defense behind a screen.

If you have the players, a full double-deep screen is actually better than a cage, b/c the Defense can only blitz away the first layer, and can't get past the 2nd.

A screen (with or without a cage behind it) can also help screen the field in front of the drive, giving you easy room to advance.


HOWEVER - always count MA, assume they'll make the Dodge roll, and add GFI's! Plan the screen in advance, just like you'd plan a cage (maybe labeling key points on the field!). Look for slots that might allow easy Dodges and Break Tackles! VERY common for a new coach to think their screen is "good enough" and then see a double-GFI Break-Tackle 1D blitz pop the ball. Ver' sad, and all too common.

If you're not sure, if the opposition is fast or Dodgey or just tricksy, Cage >> Screen. (Esp v. Skaven or Elves, but also any "good" coach!)

Same advice if you choose to form a "cage" with only 3 corners - if that far-back corner is beyond any MA of the Defense, fine - but otherwise it's a weak spot, and an invitation for the Defense to "try" - and that's when they might succeed. If it's beyond any possible MA, fine, if not - maybe start reading this article over again. Rolling Eyes


6) Don't Panic, be patient, stay disciplined, protect the BC.

Too often, a new coach will get close-ish to the goal, and then send an unsupported, unprotected Ball Carrier "most" of the way there - as if there was a reward for "close". Pro tip - there isn't. Wink

It can be tough to advance a cage (separate topic), but try. That's how you get better. Find the Blitz that frees up enough players to move forward. Keep the ball safe and ~then~ take a risk, see how it goes.

If it's Turn 7 (and the opposition hasn't moved anyone into scoring range), and it's now or never, then - maybe, sure. But 0-0 at the half is always better than 0-1.

(T7, fall back with a couple players as "defenders" if they have nothing better to contribute to the scoring effort, "just in case".)

And with practice, many of these start to overlap - one of the ball-markers from #1 becomes part of the Cage from #3, part of Screen from #5 forms protection for the Catch for the score, and so on. Keep it simple first, and you'll start to see how to improve as you go.

And you'll start to learn when it's okay to bend or even break these "rules" - but decide that for yourself, because the best way to learn is to try - and maybe fail - on your own, and in your own time.


---------------------------------------------

Now - earlier I mentioned "never safe (enough)" scenarios, against opposition that can bypass a cage. Leapers, Hypnotic Eye, Stunty Dodgers. Tough.

The best solution is multi-fold:
1) Use a double-deep screen, or a screen beyond a cage. This forms TWO layers of your players for the Defense to get through before blitzing the ballcarrier - much less attractive to try, much lower reward if a lone player succeeds (because even if they do pop the ball and manage to recover, they are unsupported, in a crowd of your players.).

2) Keep a trailer behind the ballcarrier or cage. Often just 1 key Defender can blitz the ball loose, but can't make the pickup. Or the Wizard slams the the BC into the Casualty box. If the BC can't stand up and make the recovery, the trailer often can, or can do more than the (prone) BC can. A trailer can also Blitz if the opposition recovers, and stops any "scoop and score" by being behind as a sweeper.

Especially good tactic against a Wizard, when I'd also suggest you start with a lesser player as your initial Ball Carrier, so after he's Cas'd by the Lightning Bolt you still have your #1 Ballhandler to scoop and continue the drive.

3) Avoid the threat. Try to tie them down on 1 side of the field, and swing to the other side. OR, if your team can do it, stay well back, deep in your own half, and plan a long-range Pass/Hand-off down the field.

4) Attack the threat. If there is just 1 or 2 players on the opposition who worry you, keep hitting them. Even if you don't Cas them off the field, keep them down and/or marked to tie them up and reduce their MA.

5) Score fast. If you really have no solution, if it's just a massive threat, just score asap. Once the points are on the board, you're good. If you don't have the ball, he can't steal it.

Now, there's 1 more situation you have to be careful of, and that's pure desperation. Late in the game, your opponent may take the attitude of anything from "Got nothing to lose, do or die..." to "Hey, roll a 6, win a prize!" to "It's a game - blood for the blood god! LULZ!!!" - and try a ridiculous risk.

The only defense against this is to be extra careful - don't get lazy, don't "assume", don't get greedy with blitzes away from the ball, cage/screen up extra tight, keep the ball, win the game.


No bad luck - may your tactics give you the wins you deserve! Cool
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Post Post #104 (ISO) » Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:46 pm

Post by Garmr »

Just curious when you guys are playing your games.
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Post Post #105 (ISO) » Wed Aug 05, 2015 4:20 am

Post by Klazam »

this afternoon if all goes well
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Post Post #106 (ISO) » Wed Aug 05, 2015 4:52 am

Post by Sudo_Nym »

I sent a PM to buttons; haven't heard back yet. So I suppose sometime after that point.
One time, back in 'nam, Sudo was set upon by an entire squadron of charlies. He challenged them all to a game of Pictionary, which he won resoundingly. The charlies were forced to not only surrender the skirmish, but also their world-famous chili recipe, which Sudo sold to Texas for a hefty profit. Sudo is a master of diplomacy.
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Post Post #107 (ISO) » Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:35 am

Post by MonkeyMan576 »

Button hasn't posted in a week.
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Post Post #108 (ISO) » Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:51 am

Post by Garmr »

Its only the first week so replacing someone isn't a big deal but tbh buttons seemed into it so I hope he comes back
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Post Post #109 (ISO) » Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:33 am

Post by TheButtonmen »

I'm hoping Sudo knows how to create a game because I can't figure it out lol.
Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
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Then two, then three, then a month
Then the rest of your life, you beat yourself up
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Post Post #110 (ISO) » Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:54 am

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Oh creating a game is easy once you know how it took me and titus about 15 minutes through to figure it out through lol
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Post Post #111 (ISO) » Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:58 am

Post by Garmr »

First be on at the same time skype helps for this, Second go to overview in fumbbl and then click resume for your scheduled match. Then when the thing pops up and asks you to name the game both type the exact same game name.
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Post Post #112 (ISO) » Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:00 am

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Game name: TBMvsSudo
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Post Post #113 (ISO) » Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:03 am

Post by Sudo_Nym »

I think I'm in, I need you to start it.
One time, back in 'nam, Sudo was set upon by an entire squadron of charlies. He challenged them all to a game of Pictionary, which he won resoundingly. The charlies were forced to not only surrender the skirmish, but also their world-famous chili recipe, which Sudo sold to Texas for a hefty profit. Sudo is a master of diplomacy.
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Post Post #114 (ISO) » Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:08 am

Post by Garmr »

Def want to watch
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Post Post #115 (ISO) » Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:14 am

Post by Garmr »

Sudo talk to me
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Post Post #116 (ISO) » Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:15 am

Post by Sudo_Nym »

What's up?
One time, back in 'nam, Sudo was set upon by an entire squadron of charlies. He challenged them all to a game of Pictionary, which he won resoundingly. The charlies were forced to not only surrender the skirmish, but also their world-famous chili recipe, which Sudo sold to Texas for a hefty profit. Sudo is a master of diplomacy.
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Post Post #117 (ISO) » Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:15 am

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Sudo 4 - TBM 0

It was a bit lop-sided lol.
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Post Post #118 (ISO) » Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:16 am

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we can play ahead and we can play now if you want.
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Post Post #119 (ISO) » Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:17 am

Post by Sudo_Nym »

I can't play atm; I technically was supposed to be working when I played Buttons. Got stuff to do then lunch. But we can definitely schedule something for soon.
One time, back in 'nam, Sudo was set upon by an entire squadron of charlies. He challenged them all to a game of Pictionary, which he won resoundingly. The charlies were forced to not only surrender the skirmish, but also their world-famous chili recipe, which Sudo sold to Texas for a hefty profit. Sudo is a master of diplomacy.
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Post Post #120 (ISO) » Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:17 am

Post by Sudo_Nym »

Anyway, yeah, 4-0, because Elves are disgusting, and Wardancers are especially disgusting.
One time, back in 'nam, Sudo was set upon by an entire squadron of charlies. He challenged them all to a game of Pictionary, which he won resoundingly. The charlies were forced to not only surrender the skirmish, but also their world-famous chili recipe, which Sudo sold to Texas for a hefty profit. Sudo is a master of diplomacy.
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Post Post #121 (ISO) » Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:18 am

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That's fine sudo I'm already marking which players to kill which ones have exp :P
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Post Post #122 (ISO) » Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:43 pm

Post by Klazam »

I won 2-0

Kinda was a brutal game, got carried off and knocked more than half of his team out of the game, then got the ball to my werewolf and stalled out the second half of the game.
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Gammagooey
Gammagooey
Glad Hatter
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Gammagooey
Glad Hatter
Glad Hatter
Posts: 7608
Joined: October 24, 2009

Post Post #123 (ISO) » Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:44 pm

Post by Gammagooey »

I think klazam is posting a much more readable and possibly interesting summary but i gotta go so I'm also just copy+pasting the result from the fumbl client
Spoiler: shitty match summary
Angriest Halfmen
Silent Dead
Team Value
1,000k
1,000k
Completions
0
0
Touchdowns
0
2
Interceptions
0
0
Casualties
0
0
Earned SPPs
5
11
Suffered Injuries
0 / 0 / 0
0 / 0 / 0
Passing
0
0
Rushing
10
32
Blocks
41
53
Fouls
1
2
Fan Factor
2
0 + 1
Assistant Coaches
0
0
Cheerleaders
0
0
Spectators
7000
6000
Fame
1
0
Winnings
40000
50000
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MonkeyMan576
MonkeyMan576
Jack of All Trades
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MonkeyMan576
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Location: Colorado Springs, CO

Post Post #124 (ISO) » Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:29 pm

Post by MonkeyMan576 »

I have applied for the Lustrian Challenge, one of the four fumbbl majors, with my orc team, Mean Green Monkey Machine. Here is my team.

Image

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