drealmerz7's Mini Normal Review

[drealmerz7]

if anything, I make it 1-shot vig. then, and keep the strongman SK and not BP it - really can't combo the SK like that? eeesh!

[mhsmith0]

the rb can't block a scum kill going on the sk though, rb could also block the jk in general. I might say make the SK an odd night strongman, MAYBE even full strongman, if you're gonna drop the BP. If SK townsides, scum can kill him. If he scumsides, town can kill him. Super hard needle to thread, especially in a super high role count game.

[mhsmith0]

also, no bp makes sk vulnerable to a final 4 of 2/1/1 where roles are known, and either there's a no lynch or a town lynch and sk/scum shoot each other. SK should generally win that arrangement IMO.

[drealmerz7]

no the RB would just block the vig. kill(s)

1-shot vig. is better for SK 'swifom too, more believable that there are multiple 1-shot vigs. (is that normal? or do I need to make the vig. even-night to put the wifom of the odd-night vig. there to help secure the SK kills legitimacy?)

[drealmerz7]

if I can make the SK BP+strongman, I will do that

[Firebringer]

I don't think it's ok for an SK to lack a BP in a game with 3 scum and a gated rb and a gated strongman and where town has a (gated) vig.

This too.

[drealmerz7]

and what's the word on the SK being able to have both BP+strongman ?

[mhsmith0]

I think we can make a serial killer JOAT (bp/strongman), I'm checking whether passive BP violates JOAT rules or not; send a PM to nexus to get his take.

[mhsmith0]

Nexus said we can relax guidance for an SK, which leaves us with (I think)

Town
Jailkeeper
2-shot vig
compulsive bg
bg
5 vt

scum
1-shot roleblocker (don't see why town or sk is strong enough to need two shots)
1-shot strongman (useful against sk and/or jk)
goon

serial killer
1-shot bp, 1-shot strongman

is that consistent with peoples' understanding? What is everyone's thoughts on that potential setup?

[drealmerz7]

I defintely prefer 3-shot JKtown and 2-shot RBmaf (it's hard for me to describe what I "see" with how things unfold, but 1-shot RB doesn't allow for enough to "happen") keeping it 2 makes him choose his shots wisely and try to stay off getting lynched - give a player 1-shot and they are kind of like "meh whatever" and shoot in the dark without as much thought - but even if that's not true, I like how potentials play out better with the 3-shot 2-shot

but otherwise that is good to me

[mhsmith0]

Town needs either vig or jk to be a full role to be at all close to balanced. Two gated PRs and two shitty PRs (compulsive bg is debatably negative utility) are WAY too little for town in this setup.

[drealmerz7]

JK full then

[mhsmith0]

I also don't understand why scum needs two roleblocking shots AND a strongman shot when sk and town power both largely suck.

[drealmerz7]

strongman is so he can do more damage to SK and/or allow the BGs to stay alive (whether they protect a VT or the SK or anything in between)

odds are 1 of the roleblock shots will simply be a wasted shot - hell, odds are that both will be wasted shots

[drealmerz7]

it also adds to mod-wifom and to mechanics meaning less to the game-solving and scum-hunting meaning more

[drealmerz7]

I could make the vig 1-shot if you think that helps

[mhsmith0]

strongman is so he can do more damage to SK and/or allow the BGs to stay alive (whether they protect a VT or the SK or anything in between)
odds are 1 of the roleblock shots will simply be a wasted shot - hell, odds are that both will be wasted shots

What strongman actually does, presuming competent play, is to be used on the SK or a key town PR (jk or vig). A strongman shot is pro-scum, with merely a chance it gets used on the SK instead of a town PR.

The roleblock shot is also substantially likely to be used against town power, again presuming competent play by scum team. Strongman and roleblock are both abilities that can smoke the jailkeeper, especially if the shots are saved until a useful mid game point in time.

it also adds to mod-wifom and to mechanics meaning less to the game-solving and scum-hunting meaning more

Mainly it adds confusion to the mechanics, which rather than scum-hunting meaning more, just means that town is likely to engage in mediocre to bad setup spec in lieu of scum-hunting and (in this setup at least) be punished for it (the bodyguards thinking they're mutual CCs being an especially obvious possibility). A mini normal setup that emphasizes scum-hunting would be single ball, with scum team getting 3 goons (or 2 goons and an encryptor), and town getting limited but non-zero power, such as some of the following 3-goon setups:

1843: town gets 3 masons
1827: town gets 1-shot vig, 1-shot dayvig, neapolitan, bodyguard
1758: town gets 3 masons
1741: town gets a hider, a 2-shotwatcher, a 1-shot bp
1705: town gets 2 masons and a neapolitan
etc

You say you want a setup that emphasizes scum-hunting, but what you've actually created is a setup that enables town to waste its time with setup spec and then very likely punishes it for said waste. In general, if you create a setup that screws with town's ability to accurately read into night actions, or that creates apparent CCs that town may end up lynching into, you're supposed to give town MORE power to compensate. Here you really haven't (even in the current iteration), but since it's not single ball it's a setup where you expect a lesser win rate for town just due to more factions.

I could make the vig 1-shot if you think that helps

Taking power away from town would make it worse, not better. I kind of think it'd be better making the vig odd night rather than 2-shot, but I want to see where the other reviewers are on the subject of balance at this point. If you want the roleblocker to be 2-shot instead of 1-shot, I'll probably push for the vig to be better than 2-shot, since town needs more power to counteract the roleblocking.

[drealmerz7]

hmm I guess that is a mod-fuckery thing that isn't normal in the normal queue (imo it's town's own fault if they distract themselves with setup spec instead of just scumhunt - they should be punished for it!)

[Firebringer]

Town
Jailkeeper
2-shot vig
compulsive bg
bg
5 vt

scum
1-shot roleblocker (don't see why town or sk is strong enough to need two shots)
1-shot strongman (useful against sk and/or jk)
goon

serial killer
1-shot bp, 1-shot strongman

is that consistent with peoples' understanding? What is everyone's thoughts on that potential setup?

i am fine with this setup on normalcy, but not for balance.

[drealmerz7]

I'm good not having it OKayed for balance and figured I'd put "swingy, perhaps slightly scum-sided" in the description

[drealmerz7]

I'm desperate for approval!!!

[mhsmith0]

Normals need to be approved for normalcy and balance. I'll let fire and nexus weigh in a bit about what their balance thoughts are; I don't want to go too far down one road without seeing what they think.

[drealmerz7]

I think nexus said I could just get it approved for normalcy if I put up a disclaimer that it might not be balanced/is swingy/potentially scum-sided

[drealmerz7]

though the 8v4v1 was TOO MUCH

[Nexus]

Yeah we can approve for Normality but not balance, I think?