Micro 994 | Brass and Shrapnel | Game Over!

[nepenthe]

the point i was making, for those who missed it as well as those who committed quickly to misunderstanding it on purpose, is that it's concerning to me when i see people i both perceive as town putting pressure on each other. it feels like wasted energy fmpov. AMA!

[T-Bone]

Sure. Why?

[Raya36]

It really sounded like you meant you were concerned that you got a townread on both of us from the interaction

[Kop]

I can't see ANY reasonable situation where even a partial vig claim would help us here, honestly.

Kinda sus. Not sure why we'd IC vig's either.

vigs are ICs as long as the mafia kill is identified.
As long as everyone claims their shots right after making them and there’s still 1 left for mafia, those who claimed will have to be town

But the problem being with that is, the fact that we have blank vigilantes who can't back anything up, so it's easy for scum to say they are a vigilante but then claim they must be blank, we aren't then any further forward whether to believe a claim.

For example you can have 4 people claim they shot 4 different people, but all 4 are alive, the 4 claimed vigilantes then can say they must be blank vigilantes and we're still in the square one situation.

there’s no point of talking about that either. Blanks will know that they’re blanks immediately after shooting
cases where 2 people claim the same shot should be looked into

that’s all there is to it. This is IIOA, push someone instead

Yes but the point is, the true vigilantes will know they are blanks right after shooting, but when claiming it, they can't back the claim up so it still doesn't progress us any further forward and we're left aiming at a pool of claims to sort through and giving scum a path of where they can shoot within because they will know who the real vigilante is, and what pool the doctor, bombs, and supersaints are in.

[Kop]

As someone who doesn't know that much about the pros and cons of mass claims, just trying to get my thoughts out even if they're basic

Mass-claims is generally a mid to late game thing once we've gotten a few flips and the benefits of claiming outweighs the benefits of the opposite. Right now doesn't seem like that's a great idea.

I think I've only ever done last day mass claims and I can't think of many setups where I'd be comfortable with a D1 massclaim

Generally setups that are broken via follow the cop or similar stuff (where there's a doctor and a cop, the hidden doctor goes on the claimed cop to get at least one cop clear and likely more). I've never been in a game where a mass-claim earlier than day 3 was useful.

It all depends on the setup when it comes to whether a mass claim is useful on whatever day it happens.

eh, lemme maybe say it differently.

Reading experienced players based on 1 post is near impossible... SL them, they’ll answer in any sort of longer way, people will say that “eh, it’s ok” and change votes.
I’ve seen this happen many times and I really doubt it will be different here. Placing pressure on a player you aren’t actually ok with lynching doesn’t really help at the beginning of the game

The fact that I’m pushing kop doesn’t mean that I think he’s scum either, more like: he’s a good target to vote, who scum could actually get worried about and I don’t mind getting rid of him myself.
Even if there’s a quickhammer for some reason and this flips town, we don’t lose much.
This could MAYBE pressure scum to reveal some sort of agenda if he’s not town after all

For the same reason I’d be willing to give raya and virgo a pass (not because I think they’re town, just because they contribute enough to either be sortable later on or to get night-killed)

flea might be a good target to vote as well as they sort of contribute but sort of don’t. Might become readable with some pressure.

Focusing on a player who won’t get lynched will do absolutely nothing.
Pressuring the slot? yeah
Just place the vote somewhere else, there’s no need to focus on them only

How is pressuring people who you aren't happy with lynching a bad idea this early in the game? Surely pressuring people helps you gain what there possible intentions are, and helps you sort players out, regardless if you want to lynch them or not.

And for your second point, a lynch has to mean something, not just we don't lose much. A quick hammer is a scummy move (unless it's on a confirmed scum) simply because it deprives from getting information that could be used later in the game. I very much dislike quick hammers because it just doesn't allow others to get involved and put there agendas out on the table. But as for not losing much, I don't like lynches based on that.

What agenda do you possibly think they are going to reveal IF I'm not town? What do you possibly think they are going to do? The only thing that I have seen scum do in scenarios like that is 3 possible things, 1). Stay clear of it and focus elsewhere 2). Defend subtly 3). Join the wagon and let that person go.

I'm speaking in scenarios, I'm not scum. I just want to know what you possibly think of what agendas they can possibly reveal.

[Flea The Magician]

the point i was making, for those who missed it as well as those who committed quickly to misunderstanding it on purpose, is that it's concerning to me when i see people i both perceive as town putting pressure on each other. it feels like wasted energy fmpov. AMA!

You're going to have to walk be through this. This is a little early for those kinda town reads I think... What posts from each made you think they're like solidly town?

[Flea The Magician]

the point i was making, for those who missed it as well as those who committed quickly to misunderstanding it on purpose, is that it's concerning to me when i see people i both perceive as town putting pressure on each other. it feels like wasted energy fmpov. AMA!

You're going to have to walk be through this. This is a little early for those kinda town reads I think... What posts from each made you think they're like solidly town?

[Flea The Magician]

OK Ya'll want mech spec, lets do this.

Setup:

• 2 Mafia Goons
  
• 3-5 Vigilantes OR Blank Vigilantes
  
• 2-4 Bombs OR Supersaints

Mechanics

• 25% chance of 3 Vigs (50% Blank Vig) and 4 town roles (50/50% Bomb or Supersaint)
  
• 50% chance of 4 Vigs (50% Blank Vig) and 3 town roles (50/50% Bomb or Supersaint)
  
• 25% chance of 5 Vigs (50% Blank Vig) and 2 town roles (50/50% Bomb or Supersaint)
  
• Mafia has a factional Roleblock OR a factional Doctor protection (as well as the group kill). One member may choose to perform both the NK and the Doc/RB choice.
  
• Vigilantes will not be informed whether they are a blank or not.
  
• Bomb will kill any player who successfully shoots it at night (unless protected by a Doctor action). A
• Bomb cannot be roleblocked.
  
• Supersaint will kill any player who hammers it during the day.
  
• Mafia wins endgames where they control 50% of the town UNLESS the remaining townie(s) is a Bomb, in which case it's a tie.
  
• Mafia has daytalk
  
• Mafia can not self-target

Role PMs:

Spoiler: Mafia Goon

Mafia Goon

• Welcome, [Player Name]. You are a
  Mafia Goon
  , along with your partner, [Player Name].
  
  
  Abilities:
  
  
• Factional communication: You may talk with your partner Day and Night, here: [QuickTopic link].
  
• Factional kill: Each night phase, one of you or your partner may perform the factional kill.
  
• Factional ability: Each night phase, one of you or your partner may also perform a Doctor save OR a Roleblock.
  
  Win condition:
  
  
• You win when you control the majority of the town or nothing can prevent this from happening.
  
  Confirm by replying with your role and alignment.

Spoiler: Town Supersaint

Town Supersaint

• Welcome, [Player Name], you are a
  Town Supersaint
  .
  
  
  Abilities:
  
  
• If you are lynched during the day, the player to hammer you will also die.
  
  
  Win condition:
  
  
• You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
  
  Confirm by replying with your role and alignment.

Spoiler: Town Bomb

Town Bomb

• Welcome, [Player Name], you are a
  Town Bomb
  .
  
  
  Abilities:
  
  
• If you are successfully shot at night (Blank Vig targets don't count), the player to shoot you will also die.
  
  
  Win condition:
  
  
• You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
  
  Confirm by replying with your role and alignment.

Spoiler: Town Vigilante

Town Vigilante

• Welcome, [Player Name], you are a
  Town Vigilante
  .
  
  
  Abilities:
  
  
• Each night phase, you may attempt to shoot a player in the game. There is a possibility you are a Blank Vig.
  
  
  Win condition:
  
  
• You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
  
  Confirm by replying with your role and alignment.

[Flea The Magician]

I hate when I do that... bear with me.

[Flea The Magician]

2 mafia - With (doc OR roleblock) AND KILL.

We go on averages for Town.

We have 4 vigilantes, 2 are blank. On top of that we have a total of 3 REFLEXIVE Fuck-you-and-the-horse-you-rode-in-on town roles.
Bombs SHOOT BACK.
Saints ARE A DOUBLE LIM.

Bombs are a threat to mafia, as are vigilantes. The threat of supersaints stop quickhammers.

Bombs will not return fire past the MafDoc Protection but can't be blocked.

There's NO WAY AT ALL a massclaim is beneficial to town AT ANY POINT pre-5p.

Yes but the point is, the true vigilantes will know they are blanks right after shooting, but when claiming it, they can't back the claim up so it still doesn't progress us any further forward and we're left aiming at a pool of claims to sort through and giving scum a path of where they can shoot within because they will know who the real vigilante is, and what pool the doctor, bombs, and supersaints are in.

This is a scumslip. VOTE: Kop

Based on this I'm willing to project Scum do not have a roleblocker. Vigilantes are advised to be careful with their shots, only if it's a 90% scumread should you shoot.

We can't project on town, we shouldn't project on town. Scum do not have that information, we know what we know and that's that.

All peachy? Super.

[Kop]

2 mafia - With (doc OR roleblock) AND KILL.

We go on averages for Town.

We have 4 vigilantes, 2 are blank. On top of that we have a total of 3 REFLEXIVE Fuck-you-and-the-horse-you-rode-in-on town roles.
Bombs SHOOT BACK.
Saints ARE A DOUBLE LIM.

Bombs are a threat to mafia, as are vigilantes. The threat of supersaints stop quickhammers.

Bombs will not return fire past the MafDoc Protection but can't be blocked.

There's NO WAY AT ALL a massclaim is beneficial to town AT ANY POINT pre-5p.

Yes but the point is, the true vigilantes will know they are blanks right after shooting, but when claiming it, they can't back the claim up so it still doesn't progress us any further forward and we're left aiming at a pool of claims to sort through and giving scum a path of where they can shoot within because they will know who the real vigilante is, and what pool the doctor, bombs, and supersaints are in.

This is a scumslip. VOTE: Kop

Based on this I'm willing to project Scum do not have a roleblocker. Vigilantes are advised to be careful with their shots, only if it's a 90% scumread should you shoot.

We can't project on town, we shouldn't project on town. Scum do not have that information, we know what we know and that's that.

All peachy? Super.

How is that a scum slip?

[Kop]

I've just read the setup and realized that there isn't a town doctor, I just automatically assumed there was a town doctor. I didn't realize that scum had a doctor or roleblocker.

[Flea The Magician]

Yes but the point is, the true vigilantes will know they are blanks right after shooting, but when claiming it, they can't back the claim up so it still doesn't progress us any further forward and we're left aiming at a pool of claims to sort through and giving scum a path of where they can shoot within because they will know who the real vigilante is, and

what pool the doctor, bombs, and supersaints are in.

This is a scumslip.

How is that a scum slip?

Lets face it, I'm just the bomb

[Flea The Magician]

I can't see ANY reasonable situation where even a partial vig claim would help us here, honestly.

Kinda sus. Not sure why we'd IC vig's either.

vigs are ICs as long as the mafia kill is identified.
As long as everyone claims their shots right after making them and there’s still 1 left for mafia, those who claimed will have to be town

But the problem being with that is, the fact that we have blank vigilantes who can't back anything up, so it's easy for scum to say they are a vigilante but then claim they must be blank, we aren't then any further forward whether to believe a claim.

For example you can have 4 people claim they shot 4 different people, but all 4 are alive, the 4 claimed vigilantes then can say they must be blank vigilantes and we're still in the square one situation.

So at the current moment, I'm saying a mass claim isn't going to be helpful, it'd probably won't be helpful until at least the last day when numbers are really low.

I've just read the setup and realized that there isn't a town doctor, I just automatically assumed there was a town doctor. I didn't realize that scum had a doctor or roleblocker.

Read enough of it tho

[Kop]

I can't see ANY reasonable situation where even a partial vig claim would help us here, honestly.

Kinda sus. Not sure why we'd IC vig's either.

vigs are ICs as long as the mafia kill is identified.
As long as everyone claims their shots right after making them and there’s still 1 left for mafia, those who claimed will have to be town

But the problem being with that is, the fact that we have blank vigilantes who can't back anything up, so it's easy for scum to say they are a vigilante but then claim they must be blank, we aren't then any further forward whether to believe a claim.

For example you can have 4 people claim they shot 4 different people, but all 4 are alive, the 4 claimed vigilantes then can say they must be blank vigilantes and we're still in the square one situation.

So at the current moment, I'm saying a mass claim isn't going to be helpful, it'd probably won't be helpful until at least the last day when numbers are really low.

I've just read the setup and realized that there isn't a town doctor, I just automatically assumed there was a town doctor. I didn't realize that scum had a doctor or roleblocker.

Read enough of it tho

Yeah I know that the game has vigilante/blank vigilantes in the game because I'm going of what my role PM says, and I know that there are bombs and supersaints in the game because that's already been mentioned, I just didn't read the entire setup to not realize there is a town doctor which I assumed there was.

[Flea The Magician]

ah the good ol' no pressure claim. (*・艸・)

Cute.

Why assume there's a town doc in this setup? You know what you signed up for I assume?

[Kop]

ah the good ol' no pressure claim. (*・艸・)

Cute.

Why assume there's a town doc in this setup? You know what you signed up for I assume?

I assumed that there is town doctors in most setups, thought it might have been the same in this setup.

[T-Bone]

vote: Kop

[Flea The Magician]

Grrrrrr. ◖⚆ᴥ⚆◗

[Flea The Magician]

ah the good ol' no pressure claim. (*・艸・)

Cute.

Why assume there's a town doc in this setup? You know what you signed up for I assume?

I assumed that there is town doctors in most setups, thought it might have been the same in this setup.

you... you joined in 2013...

Do I actually gotta go dig in your games? sheesh.

[Flea The Magician]

You've too much experience just from a quick look to use that excuse

*does the happy dance*

[Kop]

My last game was participated in 2019, it's been a while. You can read back through my games by all means.

[Flea The Magician]

My last game was participated in 2019, it's been a while. You can read back through my games by all means.

Your last 3 games on site didn't have a doctor role

[T-Bone]

Forget masons hydra with me the rest of this game.

[Kop]

My last game was participated in 2019, it's been a while. You can read back through my games by all means.

Your last 3 games on site didn't have a doctor role

I can't remember what roles were in those games. I simply assumed that it was a basic setup with the added additions of bombs, supersaints and vigilante variations.