Mini 1439 -- Game Over

[don_johnson]

"don't feel good" as in "i am scum and just bent you all over by lurking the shit out of this game"?

or "don't feel good" as in "i am town and i think we just lost"?

[penguin_alien]

RC: so it's fine for people to see vig-you as scummy, but not to note that you failed to claim and play in a pro-town way? Looking forward to hearing how you justify your quickhammer on Red Dragon and complete refusal to engage in dialogue this past day phase.

P-edit: no kidding. Seeing as if RC isn't trolling we just lost.

[don_johnson]

i had no issues with the claim. but the hammer and refusal to answer questions. and then of course, the self vote. ugh.

[MrBump]

I'm Town. My play was definitely subpar, was my first game back in an awfully long time.

I tend to tunnel vision quite a bit and that is quite a crippling flaw I have. Not really sure how to improve it.

@Radiant: I was probably too harsh to you this game, but if everything was getting to you that much, just replace out instead of essentially throwing the game by not wanting to play. You play LoL; that's a team game and if someone fucks up, people tend to get pissed off at them for ruining their own chances. Obviously being toxic never helps and so on, but it's pretty much the same principle here. You don't have any right here really to get angry at us for being frustrated with your play when you did so many things wrong.

Scumteam is going to be Ztife/Pac just so I can be wrong on every read

[evilpacman18]

I'm definitely town. If RC isn't SK it must be penguin and ztife

[MrBump]

Well if Penguin's scum then we deserve the loss

[penguin_alien]

Would that I were.

[2birds1stone]

Vote Count 4.8

penguin_alien (0)
RadiantCowbells (2) -- Ztife, MrBump, RadiantCowbells, don_johnson
MrBump (0)
don_johnson (0)
Ztife (1) -- evilpacman18
evilpacman18 (0)

Not voting -- penguin_alien

A lynch has been decided on.

RadiantCowbells,

Two-Shot Vigilante

, is now dead.

Night Four ends in (expired on 2013-06-07 12:56:01)

[2birds1stone]

evilpacman18,

Vanilla Townie

, was killed last night.

It is now Day Five

Vote Count 5.1

penguin_alien (0)
MrBump (0)
don_johnson (0)
Ztife (0)

Not voting -- penguin_alien, MrBump, don_johnson, Ztife

With four alive, it takes three to lynch

Day Two ends in (expired on 2013-06-21 10:23:00)

[Ztife]

We're probably at MYLO now.
@DJ Why did you change your actions after arguing for the most part yesterday that you want RC to be kept alive?

[MrBump]

I guess RC was right and there is a Traitor? I'm not familiar with the mechanics of that role though

[don_johnson]

bump: why would you say that? I think traitor is considered part of the mafia, so we are down to 4p, which means mafia win if such a role exists here. it looks to me like obvious set-up is obvious. 2p scum vs town with one limited pr. still say most likely scum is ztife.

penguin: where you at?

ztife: that's a dumb question. ask a better one. I laid out my thoughts just fine yesterday.

[don_johnson]

hm. the wiki is a bit unclear on rules governing a traitor. doesn't really specify if they count towards a win, but it wouldn't make sense cause in this situation traitor and scum could just stalemate a lynch. so yeah. no traitor. one scum left. most likely set-up is exactly what we talked about yesterday while ztife was going insanely paranoid over whether RC was sk or multi-ball etc.

I want to hear from penguin and I will do some rereading here, but my vote is going to ztife unless they can convince me one of you two are the final scum.

[Ztife]

Why am I scum again?

ok. that selfie looks like a last ditch effort by a desperate sk. i'll bite on the 2p scum vs sk vs all vanilla town.

bump: you need to let go of your anger.

vote: radiant cowbells

let's see what happens..

if its an sk flip and the game continues, last scum is either ztife or epm imo. most likely ztife. bump and penguin should be clear.

And no, your thoughts are not laid out fine. Your hammer contradicts literally everything you have said on Day 4. Its a little something we call an opportunistic vote.
What happening to

lynching scum over SK

? What happen to your insistance in 3scum + SK? In light of your scum hunting for D4 (which is literally just defending RC and accusing me in essence) you hammered instead of pushing my wagon (whom you thought scum). And unless im clearly mistaken you are ditching your "scum over SK" because it was going to be an easy hammer. So, try again scum. Maybe you can come up with a better reason.

Penguin what were you holding your vote for on most of D4? Guide us through your train of thoughts, please.

[don_johnson]

Why am I scum again?

you are most likely SAS partner. I didn't make that case, maybe penguin did. I think he stated it was through associative tells, but i'll let him answer that. for me, it was your uber paranoid reaction yesterday and your consistent abandonment of common sense regarding set-up and what the best move was for town. guess who said "hey guys, lynching RC is the wrong move"? yeah, that was me. guess what. it was the wrong move, and the only reason this game continued is because we got lucky on set-up. your entire case yesterday was built from a scum perspective and I stated it over and over and no one really seemed to listen. only scum had to fear sk/multi-ball. and only SAS partner would fear multi-ball because for everyone else, RC was

either

vig or sk.

ok. that selfie looks like a last ditch effort by a desperate sk. i'll bite on the 2p scum vs sk vs all vanilla town.

bump: you need to let go of your anger.

vote: radiant cowbells

let's see what happens..

if its an sk flip and the game continues, last scum is either ztife or epm imo. most likely ztife. bump and penguin should be clear.

And no, your thoughts are not laid out fine. Your hammer contradicts literally everything you have said on Day 4.

except, of course, what I said when I hammered. and all the stuff I said in the post or two before that. but if you want to quote it, and then ignore it, that's up to you.

Its a little something we call an opportunistic vote.

nah. oppurtunistic would have been to simply lynch RC right out. Fact: there can only be one scum left. which means that yesterday, there was one lone scum. and that scum would have had no idea what the hell was going on in this wonky set-up and would have been hell bent on lynching the fuck out of the "other" claimed nightkiller. kind of like how, oh, id don't know... how you were acting?

What happening to

lynching scum over SK

? What happen to your insistance in 3scum + SK?

nothing. no one seemed to agree, and in listening to bump I agreed on the most likely set-ups. of which, 2p scum/sk/vanillatown seemed to be most likely after all our discussion. I can't lynch you on my own. and no one was supportive of it yesterday. considering I lynched the guy that YOU wanted to lynch from the get-go, I honestly don't see the problem for you. in your eyes, I should prpobably be clear at this point. I think your best move would have been to nk obvtownpenguin and go after epm. but then I would have called you on that as well. so whatevz.

In light of your scum hunting for D4 (which is literally just defending RC and accusing me in essence) you hammered instead of pushing my wagon (whom you thought scum).

I pushed your wagon all day. I only hammered after RC failed hard in answering questions and self voted. also after discussing things with bump and working them out in my own head. which is all clearly documented in my posts.

And unless im clearly mistaken you are ditching your "scum over SK" because it was going to be an easy hammer. So, try again scum. Maybe you can come up with a better reason.

wonderful theory. but why in the hell would scumdj have gone through all that trouble? you are missing the most important element here... motive. you need a majority to lynch, and the majority was leaning towards RC. I can only fight for what I believe for so long. we can wifom it all day, but I can only hope that people use common sense today and realize that...

dj was fucking right.

[MrBump]

I'm not familiar with the mechanics of that role though

Penguin, who do you think is most likely scum between Ztife and DJ? I'm leaning Ztife atm myself

[penguin_alien]

@DJ: I was asleep. Why the inquiry a mere five hours after the thread opens?

@Ztife: I didn't vote yesterday because I wasn't sure what made the most sense. It comes down to you or DJ as the scum we need to lynch for me, and I need to look over how the RC hammer happened, as I figured the night phase was just a formality. I don't have time to sort things through ATM.

@MrBump, I'm leaning Ztife myself, but only by a little. I want to reassess with evilpacman18's flip too. WRT the traitor possibility, there are multiple options, but nothing right now that's useful to voice. If you're town, I'd suggest reading up on the options in the wiki.

[don_johnson]

penguin: merely asking for your opinion. not sure how the timing is relevant there. also, traitor makes no sense in this scenario. if there is a traitor and one scum against two town, they could just stalemate and bully until they get their way. that doesn't seem to be fair. if you can find the ruling, please enlighten me as the wiki isn't very clear. but from a common sense perspective, traitor seems irrelevant. even if we lynch a traitor we go to night with scum vs. two townies. ends in a scum win. so we need to lynch scum today regardless. again, if you look at the hard evidence, most likely set-up is 2pscum vs town with limited vig. look at how ztife pushed to get RC lynched and his reasoning why. all of his reasoning was fearmongering over a multi-ball set-up and/or the idea that for SOME reason, town NEEDED to lynch the alleged sk. though some of the arguments seem logical, there is no way ever in that situation that is in towns best interest to lynch the alleged sk. there was ZERO evidence of multi-ball from a townie's perspective. Ztife was arguing from the standpoint of being the lone scum left behind by SAS. He was honestly confused as to the set-up which led some reality to his posting, but ultimately, look at what he was trying to do. my acquiescence to the RC lynch was based on all of the things I stated. look at our post lynch reactions. look at the fact that ztife's main push for scumdj was that dj was partnered with scumRC. there is very little case to be made against dj as SAS partner. especially given all of my actions yesterday when I could have simply lynched RC and shot bump or ztife to rid myself of one of my main opponents. we can wifom this to death. if its between ztife and myself the choice shouldn't be that tough. but ask away if you have questions.

[Ztife]

Why am I scum again?

you are most likely SAS partner. I didn't make that case, maybe penguin did. I think he stated it was through associative tells, but i'll let him answer that. for me, it was your uber paranoid reaction yesterday and your consistent abandonment of common sense regarding set-up and what the best move was for town. guess who said "hey guys, lynching RC is the wrong move"? yeah, that was me. guess what. it was the wrong move, and the only reason this game continued is because we got lucky on set-up. your entire case yesterday was built from a scum perspective and I stated it over and over and no one really seemed to listen. only scum had to fear sk/multi-ball. and only SAS partner would fear multi-ball because for everyone else, RC was

either

vig or sk.

ok. that selfie looks like a last ditch effort by a desperate sk. i'll bite on the 2p scum vs sk vs all vanilla town.

bump: you need to let go of your anger.

vote: radiant cowbells

let's see what happens..

if its an sk flip and the game continues, last scum is either ztife or epm imo. most likely ztife. bump and penguin should be clear.

And no, your thoughts are not laid out fine. Your hammer contradicts literally everything you have said on Day 4.

except, of course, what I said when I hammered. and all the stuff I said in the post or two before that. but if you want to quote it, and then ignore it, that's up to you.

Its a little something we call an opportunistic vote.

nah. oppurtunistic would have been to simply lynch RC right out. Fact: there can only be one scum left. which means that yesterday, there was one lone scum. and that scum would have had no idea what the hell was going on in this wonky set-up and would have been hell bent on lynching the fuck out of the "other" claimed nightkiller. kind of like how, oh, id don't know... how you were acting?

What happening to

lynching scum over SK

? What happen to your insistance in 3scum + SK?

nothing. no one seemed to agree, and in listening to bump I agreed on the most likely set-ups. of which, 2p scum/sk/vanillatown seemed to be most likely after all our discussion. I can't lynch you on my own. and no one was supportive of it yesterday. considering I lynched the guy that YOU wanted to lynch from the get-go, I honestly don't see the problem for you. in your eyes, I should prpobably be clear at this point. I think your best move would have been to nk obvtownpenguin and go after epm. but then I would have called you on that as well. so whatevz.

In light of your scum hunting for D4 (which is literally just defending RC and accusing me in essence) you hammered instead of pushing my wagon (whom you thought scum).

I pushed your wagon all day. I only hammered after RC failed hard in answering questions and self voted. also after discussing things with bump and working them out in my own head. which is all clearly documented in my posts.

And unless im clearly mistaken you are ditching your "scum over SK" because it was going to be an easy hammer. So, try again scum. Maybe you can come up with a better reason.

wonderful theory. but why in the hell would scumdj have gone through all that trouble? you are missing the most important element here... motive. you need a majority to lynch, and the majority was leaning towards RC. I can only fight for what I believe for so long. we can wifom it all day, but I can only hope that people use common sense today and realize that...

dj was fucking right.

Penguin's case? Your case was.. Ztife is pushing the RC lynch and therefore he must be scum, which ironically you hammer yourself. Or so it seems D4. Which part of me abandon common sense regarding setup? I listed all possible setups, I have also mentioned that this is one of the likely setups

Precisely, multi-ball with a doc(fire and ice setup) and sk + 2 scum + 10 VTs are more possible setups since they are balanced, and in these cases lynching RC is priority to winning.

Again, couple of misreps.
1. I listed all setups. I have also mentioned (quoted) the likely ones. Where was my abandonment of common sense again? Please.. you are just bringing it into wifom. Im not even sure you understand the meaning of possibility and likely at this point.
2. I have consistency in my posts. Even if we redo D4 again, I would probably still lynch RC. Fact is RC play was anti-town like and it was to me unlikely he was vig.
3. I agree that in a multi-ball or if RC was an SK he has to be lynched. Not sure how this makes me scum instead of town, please explain.
4. I agree that I pushed RC to be lynched, and I agree that my read about him not being vig was wrong.

You have been pushing my wagon for all sorts of wrong reasons, and that's why the wagon did not gain traction. Do you even realise? I'm not scum, and there's no clear reason/motivation why I should would be pushing RC wagon this hard if I'm scum. You go on about high and loftly theories about how scum should fear sk and all that stuff but end of the day, you can't give literal examples why if it is a lone scum he has to push the wagon like I did instead of just lurking more.

Town make wrong lynches, town makes wrong pushes, simply because they don't know alignment. Reads are still reads. In fact, wrong reads are mostly a null-townish read. Scums are afraid to give strong reads or read-list because it could make them look scummy. If they push too many wrong wagons it will draw attention to them. Scums mostly just want to lie low and go with popular opinion to get lynches.

bottom page 5. red dragon and mr. bumps defense of SAS is noted. Ztife as well but not so much. ztifes opinion seems a bit more genuine. of the three, it is almost obvious at this point that red dragon is scum. so:

unvote, vote red dragon

for now. will keep reading...

This is an example of a crap-ass vote, no mention of RD and suddenly pops a vote without any specific reason. Much of the same is done for the feg lynch (and your D1 vote was well). The reason why the whole RC lynch was super scummy its because you changed your opinion last minute, where you have stated your stand on not lynching RC because he's vig/sk. And you have also somewhat wifom his scummy behaviour throughout as "reasonable town-PR play". Therefore the only trigger for you to lynch RC was because of his self vote.

What was DJ right about again? RC being vig.. meaning you lynched someone you thought vig? Or about RC needing to be lynched, which in this case you did the hammer against the logic which you have argue with me all of D4.. or is DJ right about 2scum+sk? Because if that's the case, im pretty sure I mentioned 2scum+sk more times than you did. I would do the quotes if anybody would bother to read. But yeah, keep mis-repping, and keep insisting.. the only thing at this point im unsure of because penguin seems to be probable scum, and your insistent flawed tunneling of me. I will need to do a re-read for D2 and D3 especially.

Bump has been hard defending himself mostly, but his play just seems way too out there to be scum. Like I said, scums lie and wait, which is pretty much what you and penguin has been doing for the early days.

[Ztife]

penguin: merely asking for your opinion. not sure how the timing is relevant there. also, traitor makes no sense in this scenario. if there is a traitor and one scum against two town, they could just stalemate and bully until they get their way. that doesn't seem to be fair. if you can find the ruling, please enlighten me as the wiki isn't very clear. but from a common sense perspective, traitor seems irrelevant. even if we lynch a traitor we go to night with scum vs. two townies. ends in a scum win. so we need to lynch scum today regardless. again, if you look at the hard evidence, most likely set-up is 2pscum vs town with limited vig. look at how ztife pushed to get RC lynched and his reasoning why. all of his reasoning was fearmongering over a multi-ball set-up and/or the idea that for SOME reason, town NEEDED to lynch the alleged sk. though some of the arguments seem logical, there is no way ever in that situation that is in towns best interest to lynch the alleged sk. there was ZERO evidence of multi-ball from a townie's perspective. Ztife was arguing from the standpoint of being the lone scum left behind by SAS. He was honestly confused as to the set-up which led some reality to his posting, but ultimately, look at what he was trying to do. my acquiescence to the RC lynch was based on all of the things I stated. look at our post lynch reactions. look at the fact that ztife's main push for scumdj was that dj was partnered with scumRC. there is very little case to be made against dj as SAS partner. especially given all of my actions yesterday when I could have simply lynched RC and shot bump or ztife to rid myself of one of my main opponents. we can wifom this to death. if its between ztife and myself the choice shouldn't be that tough. but ask away if you have questions.

Again, misrep me. Explaing why its not possible to be a multi-ball (0 evidence? not sure where you get that crap), and I have also said that in 2scum + SK it will benefit to get the SK lynched as well.

Again, if if was not in town's best interest to lynch SK then why did you hammer?

If you had believe that lynching RC will lead to town loss which you have repeated multiple times why did you hammer instead of trying to make town win?

Fact is, your actions benefit you being scum the most, and therefore you come up with all sorts of reasons to cover youself (inconsistencies and more inconsistencies) Contradict yourself all over, and continue mis-repping me. Your first 3 day actions, as well as your contradicting hammer, is enough reason for me at this point. Your reasons for RC lynch is hard to elaborate because simply it contradicts everything you have said D4. Again, discussions with bump? All I saw was a 2-liner and you hammered. You realise this is WIFOM because everything you are accusing me of being scum is WIFOM, but you keep avoiding your own inconsistancies.

Vote: dj

[don_johnson]

fine then. if bump or penguin are scum they can have this. I honestly don't think its possible. I think I have read this game correctly.

vote: ztife

it is not multi-ball. there is no doc. RC was the incorrect lynch. all things dj told all of you guys yesterday. you are trying to regurgitate arguments in an attempt to paint me scummy for hammering the guy YOU INSISTED was the BEST LYNCH for town. nice try.

RC self voted and failed to answer my questions. EPM, bump, and penguin all stated their intent to lynch RC over you. I was done arguing my points. all we were doing was going around in circles. my case on you hasn't changed. your case on me has. initially you said I was scum with RC. now your case is that I changed my point of view in the interest of achieving a lynch. you are putting up one hell of a fight. hopefully bump and penguin can see through your smokescreen.

I answered both of your underlined questions yesterday in my posts leading up to the RC lynch. there was much more than just a two liner. and even in that two liner, i offered part of my reasoning which you are completely ignoring. my viewpoint changed. I believed(correctly) that RC was either vig or sk and that there were either one or two scum left. from my point of view and from my years of experience I believed that lynching the sk/vig was the least desirable move based on the evidence at hand. there was no real inconsistency in my play. the rest of you decided that you wanted to lynch RC and RC played like a complete shithead(no offense bro). but that's the long and the short of it.

bump and penguin: I am not interested in going in circles with ztife. if you guys honestly think he is not scum then whatevz. I will answer any questions from you guys, but I see no point in littering the thread arguing with scum. it has pained me to even write this post.

[don_johnson]

"Precisely, multi-ball with a doc(fire and ice setup) and sk + 2 scum + 10 VTs are more possible setups since they are balanced, and in these cases lynching RC is priority to winning."

^^ is this what you said ztife? because in those scenarios lynching RC is ONLY priority to winning in the multi-ball set-up. and if you're willing to bet on four anti-town roles, why can't they be 3p scum and sk? in which case that gives us another scenario where lynching sk is the wrong move. given the evidence, multi-ball was the least likely set-up. and multi-ball was the ONLY ONLY ONLY ONLY ONLY ONLY set-up in which lynching the sk would be a priority for town to win. and given the evidence of two nights with only one nk, the multi-ball set-up was the least likely set-up. so you were pushing for the "priority" lynch given the least likely set-up speculation. in the other scenarios, it benefits scum way more than town to go ahead and lynch the sk/vig player.

[don_johnson]

pen and bump: do I need to keep explaining this? I am going out for some frozen yogurt. let me know if you need anything clarified here.

[Ztife]

DJ in a nutshell:

Defends RC.
Argues about why we should not lynch

SK

(SCUM > SK).

Hammers RC whom he thinks is SK.
Unless he's telling me he hammered someone he thinks is vig

Was going to give him a chance to explain.. but now im sure. Lynching RC is not the problem. The problem is changing your stance with no real explaination.

i think 2p scum/sk/vanillatown is more likely than multi-ball.

i think 3pscum/townwithvig is more likely than multi-ball.

based on those two scenarios, there is no need to lynch RC today. he can be dealt with tomorrow. only player who really needs him lynched today would be a scum player. so whatevz.

I was at practically at L-1 too anyway, but he knew he couldn't push my lynch.

[Ztife]

"Precisely, multi-ball with a doc(fire and ice setup) and sk + 2 scum + 10 VTs are more possible setups since they are balanced, and in these cases lynching RC is priority to winning."

^^ is this what you said ztife? because in those scenarios lynching RC is ONLY priority to winning in the multi-ball set-up. and if you're willing to bet on four anti-town roles, why can't they be 3p scum and sk? in which case that gives us another scenario where lynching sk is the wrong move. given the evidence, multi-ball was the least likely set-up. and multi-ball was the ONLY ONLY ONLY ONLY ONLY ONLY set-up in which lynching the sk would be a priority for town to win. and given the evidence of two nights with only one nk, the multi-ball set-up was the least likely set-up. so you were pushing for the "priority" lynch given the least likely set-up speculation. in the other scenarios, it benefits scum way more than town to go ahead and lynch the sk/vig player.

Yeah, find it post 986
SK was priority lynch for all setup, not just multi-ball. post 862
Lynching RC was the correct move except that he was totally playing as a horrible vig. Erm, why did you lynch hammer RC again? Me pushing RC lynch is scummy, you hammering issin't. Hmm, not sure if I get the logic here unless you are scum.

In case you can't understand my post, or anybody else is wondering why we keep going in circles with DJ.

I don't. I'm explaining Ztife's thought process to the best of my own knowledge. Stop putting words in my mouth.

I just explained why lynching into five people hoping to hit Scum is incredibly risky. You thinking Ztife is Scum does not make him Scum. If he is, it's a good lynch, but it's too risky. I literally just explained and you ignored my post completely and utterly with a "whatevz". You asked the question for what I assume was information or to understand my thought process then proceeded to not even accept that it existed?

sk could shoot you overnight, eliminating your chance to win

YEP YOU DEFINITELY IGNORED MY FUCKING POST

YOU FLAT OUT DID NOT READ WHAT I JUST SAID

THAT IS MY ONLY EXPLANATION

WHAT THE FUCK

YOU ARE LITERALLY NOT EVEN READING THE ARGUMENTS PRESENTED

THAT IS WHY WE ARE GOING IN CIRCLES, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN

And.. POOF. Hammers the "SK". That move is golden.