Mini 1715 - Z - Game over!

[SilverWolf]

Karmic-The only issue I had with your list was what I told you. You just needed to have some more definitive scumreads.

[SilverWolf]

I usually do reads lists as either alignment but I'm more cautious about it as scum because it's too easy to be used against you as associatives down the road.

[gummmybear]

I usually do reads lists as either alignment but I'm more cautious about it as scum because it's too easy to be used against you as associatives down the road.

Major apologies to everyone for the sloppy hammer, though thankfully it worked out in the end. I'm having a lot of problems with RL, just got replaced in another game as well and found myself struggling to cope with this game. I think I'll limit myself to 1 game at a time from now on.

I usually do reads lists as either alignment but I'm more cautious about it as scum because it's too easy to be used against you as associatives down the road.

Agree with this, I think what really pinged me was your list of reads that you posted, especially the one accusing me (of course I'm biased because it's accusing me) and how it felt to me like scum trying to find a reason to find 3 people scummy, and picking what everyone is calling the 3 scummiest as 3 easy targets but messing up (especially on me, your read on me totally didn't make sense by my actions so far in the game). However, I had low towncred at that point, so you might have gotten away with it and my raging dismissed and swallowed up in the thread (like every one of my other posts). I feel that pistachi0n got really lucky this game rolecopping you, as she could have been Day 2 Lynch if not for that, and it might not have ended up being a 1v1 between you and her.

[gummmybear]

oops messed up my quote

[gummmybear]

Also realised how much my playing deproved over the game >< from reading my own ISO towards the end of the game - actually had my eyes on 2 scum from my first post, and had some pretty solid stuff, but the posts just got worse and worse all the time. If I were reading another townie player's ISO and it looked like that, I'd totally lynch them too for active lurking and not scumhunting. Sorry for that everyone.

[SilverWolf]

gummy for future reference, I don't respond well to vote threats to get me to engage with you. I wasn't going to answer you or say much of anything else once I was certain to be lynched. If I wasn't, I would of made a better case and answered your questions.

[zakk]

Thank you all so much for playing, I'd very much like you all to /pre-in for my next game! It will most likely be a mini theme or a large normal. I don't think I'm going to hop straight into Large theme after this one, I need to get some more experience.

[eventi]

/in for mini normal

[Thor665]

@Zakk - now that the game is over, what's up with rule #12? Why no bold tags?

[KarmicGuide]

So, after thinking about this setup for a while... my thoughts are, it seems solid to run again in the future, at least for further testing.

My impressions, from this one game, is that it's extremely difficult, practically impossible, for the scum to recover from having their Roleblocker lynched day 1. However... it's a Mini, so an important scum PR getting lynched day 1 -should- be a huge swing. Right? At least, that's how I feel at the moment. It's a setup that falls apart for scum as scum loses PRs, but in a 10:3, that's probably how things should be.

[Thor665]

As an easy example of similar issues - I point you to a RBer loss Day 1 in the Newbie Doc/Cop/RBer setup.
Minis are always swingy on scum PR day 1 losses - it's the nature of a small team and also the nature of the, rather common, protective+investigative combo.

[Bellaphant]

Thor is right. I wasn't the GF tho

[davesaz]

My best guess is that the vote tags are reverse hilighted and thus easier to see. I prefer them when reading.
agree on expected swinginess. Town pr losses are swingy too.

[Garmr]

I don't know how I knew Bella was town just was gut

[SilverWolf]

As an easy example of similar issues - I point you to a RBer loss Day 1 in the Newbie Doc/Cop/RBer setup.
Minis are always swingy on scum PR day 1 losses - it's the nature of a small team and also the nature of the, rather common, protective+investigative combo.

I saw that happen in a newbie and it turned into follow the cop.

I guess there's just no way I'm gonna believe with a full jailkeeper that allows jailed targets to be looked at, a full cop, a full rolecop, and a full doc would not make a game townsided no matter what PR's scum had. Plus, it's way to easy to setup crack via PR's.

The GF balances the cop and the scum rc balances the town rc and the RBer balances the jailkeep but what scum PR balances the doc?

[Thor665]

The GF balances the cop and the scum rc balances the town rc and the RBer balances the jailkeep but what scum PR balances the doc?

You're starting this with a bad presumption.

First off, the town RC does not balance the scum RC - a scum RC is highly potent to scum, especially with a RBer and, also, scum starting with awareness that there is a cop thanks to the presence of the GF.
The town rolecop is marginally good as a tool against the RBer, is a counter to the GF, and is a risk if he is forced to claim as a rolecop is not exactly the best town claim out there.
The jailkeeper is a generic protection role that is balanced because he can also clog up the town PRs, and with three scum is not a very good investigative tool until 2 scum are dead - the only reason he was so potent in this game is because we killed two scum very quickly.
A town Doc is mostly a utility named townie with a slight chance of helping town if he is either lucky early or manages to last late. He was useful this game because scum opted to try to kill one of the more obvious town players, and the Doc also thought said player was fairly obvious.
The roleblocker exists as a strong counter to the investigative powers, as he prevents massclaim shenanigans as long as he is alive - losing him first was a massive blow to scum wincon.

So, functionally, town had a cop who could find 2/3 of the scumteam.
A different cop who could find 2/3 of the scumteam and had a weak claim against lynching.
A weak protective role (Doc)
And a strong protective role with late game investigative powers.
vs.
One of the strongest scum defensive roles (GF)
Arguably one of the best scum roles in the game barring odd ones that don't appear often (roleblocker)
And a scum role that is of middle tier but tends to be considered higher tier when paired with an RBer (rolecop)

Where I think the setup is unbalanced is, I think giving town a rolecop and scum a rolecop is a little wonky - I'd rather see town net a tracker, for similar effect and a very slightly less powerful ability, and see the JKer shifted to a full 'Alien' JKer just to allow scum a bit of wiggle room there. That said, I don't actually think either change is needed for balance.

The problem with this game is that, literally, the scum's best tool to control town was lynched Day 1. That is the begining and the end of why the scum team burst into flames so quickly - give us even a different scum lynch and it wouldn't have been so damaging. Give us a town lynch nd scum could have been in a grand position Day 2. Which, in essence, means that the game is not unbalanced - an unbalanced game would allow town to gak 1-2 lynches early and *still* have scum on their back heel. That was not the case in this setup.

[SilverWolf]

Well, I'm no expert on this but zakk did say the game was only reviewed for Normalcy and not balance.

But you make decent points Thor and I feel slightly less whiny than I did in dead chat-LOL.

[KarmicGuide]

Well, I'm no expert on this but zakk did say the game was only reviewed for Normalcy and not balance.

But you make decent points Thor and I feel slightly less whiny than I did in dead chat-LOL.

Speaking of, is dead chat going to get released?

It's perfectly okay if you guys shit-talked me a bunch in there; I'd completely understand, since I was on your wagons. I'd still love to read it! XD

[SilverWolf]

Well, I'm no expert on this but zakk did say the game was only reviewed for Normalcy and not balance.

But you make decent points Thor and I feel slightly less whiny than I did in dead chat-LOL.

Speaking of, is dead chat going to get released?

It's perfectly okay if you guys shit-talked me a bunch in there; I'd completely understand, since I was on your wagons. I'd still love to read it! XD

Ciara only made one post, WW wasn't in it. zakk and I talked about my decision to cc pista which he disagree'd with, then we talked about the game being unbalanced and how often he did VC's, the rest was me whining and crying about the injustice of it all. Oh and I did mention I disagree'd with the Thor kill N2.

I was not mad about your attempted vote on me. But it did look like an obvious bus. I would of voted me earlier if I was you.

[SilverWolf]

But I did PM zakk and say I was ok with dead and scum PT's being released. They are both still private atm, but hopefully he'll release them soon.

[Thor665]

Yeah, I don't think he's been around.

[KarmicGuide]

I slightly disagree about N2 killing Nacho.

Thor and Nacho are both very strong players when they're town, but my gut told me that bringing people around to scum!nacho was possible. In the end, it wasn't possible, not with all the PRs that can definitively look at people. But I didn't see any way to ever turn on Thor in the daytime - he had to be a nightkiill eventually.

[SilverWolf]

Yeah but the game was being broken by PR's so the only chance you had, even if small, was to take out the doc.

That's just my opinion.

[KarmicGuide]

Ah, yeah. ...Good point. I don't factor PRs into my current play enough.

[zakk]

@Zakk - now that the game is over, what's up with rule #12? Why no bold tags?

You know, the only real reason is that it's WAY easier to see when there's a white background and it's all caps.

I don't really trust the auto vote counter, idk. Sorry if it was an inconvenience man.