Open 555 - Pick Your Poison (Game Over!)

[VictorDeAngelo]

UNVOTE:

I'm in favour of a massclaim. I honestly don't think the how will matter much.

I don't think much will happen until we complete it.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

First, I am suggesting a full-on mass claim. This is to prevent any shenanigans. Not just "I'm the vig/I'm not the vig."

I mean at this point posts should have "I am in favor of a mass claim." or "I am not in favor of a mass claim, and here is why."

Let's try not to waste too much time because again. 3 confirmed town voices giving their reads. This is more valuable than anything else we have.

here, I am Vanilla Townie. Here is the deal you want to mass claim, lets just do it. No need to pussy foot around. If the vig does not want to they won't. This oh, lets spend a few days getting a vote on mass claiming and then mass claim in a particular way just eats up time and deviates from actual sorting things out. And when it comes down to it, just state that you want the vig to claim.

[RachMarie]

popcorn to someone SKOT

[Squirrel Girl]

I am indifferent to the mass claim, as we get the same benefit of it tomorrow if we do it then. I guess there's a theoretical logic behind 'avoid wagoning the Vig' as a time saver...but I was sort of thinking we wouldn't end up using all our time anyway, and thus a wagon on a confirmed town would be fine to look at if it did happen.

I'll support it though, I don't see it as a poor move today.

Besides, we already started, so I think either I support it or just look silly

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

popcorn to someone SKOT

that is silly, just do it. If you want the "popcorn" effect then go for it Rachel. I see no need for silly drawn out anything.

[Squirrel Girl]

Let's consider that a popcorn to Rach and rush forward blindly from there.

[singersigner]

Votecount

Sharpest-Knife-On-Tree (1) - Knell
VictorDeAngelo (1) - RedCoyote

not voting (6) - RachMarie, AGar, reinoe, Squirrel Girl, Sharpest-Knife-On-Tree, VictorDeAngelo

With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Let's consider that a popcorn to Rach and rush forward blindly from there.

that is what it is meant as, you sign in you should claim imo... waiting for some random order and people checking in a varying rates is just silly to me.

[RedCoyote]

I'm going to spend a little time with VCA and see if that takes me anywhere (note: I will be replacing all names with the current players in the slot):

Unofficial VC immediately prior to the Mod calling Knell an IC

Vote Count

Knell

(6) - RedCoyote, Sharpest-Knife-On-Tree, VictorDeAngelo,

neil1113

,

ChriVi

,

don_johnson

ToastyToast

(2) -

Knell

, Rach
Rach (2) -

ToastyToast

RedCoyote (1) -

reinoe

Not Voting (3) - SG, AGar,

Abelcain

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch

I think this points to myself, Sharp and Victor getting town points. Especially Victor as it seems unlikely that all three scum would group themselves together on the Knell wagon like that. I think I've only seen that happen one time.

VC immediately prior to neil claiming

Vote Count

neil1113

(6) -

don_johnson

, AGar, VictorDeAngelo,

reione

, RedCoyote,

ToastyToast

don_johnson

(2) - Sharpest-knife-on-tree,

neil1113

ToastyToast

(1) - Rach
VictorDeAngelo (1) -

Knell

Not Voting (3) - SG,

Abelcain

,

ChriVi

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch

Given ChriVi's positioning, it's reasonable to conclude that the scumteam hadn't intended on claiming, I think. In other words, this wasn't something the scum was trying to do, I don't think. That said, would it have been likely that the neil wagon here was entirely town?

Final D1 VC

Vote Count

don_johnson

(7) - Sharpest-Knife-On-Tree,

neil1113

,

reione

,

Abelcain

, AGar, RedCoyote,

Knell

ToastyToast

(1) - Rach
cxinlee (1) - VictorDeAngelo
Sharpest-Knife-On-Tree (1) -

don_johnson

Not Voting (3) - SG,

ChriVi

,

ToastyToast

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch

I want to think the other scum was on the don wagon here, so that doesn't bode well for myself, AGar, and Sharp.

Final D2 VC

Vote Count

VictorDeAngelo (1) - AGar
RachMarie (2) -

Knell

, RedCoyote
RedCoyote (1) - VictorDeAngelo

ChriVi

(6) - Squirrel Girl, Sharpest-Knife-On-Tree, RachMarie,

reinoe

,

neil1113

,

ToastyToast

not voting (1) -

ChriVi

As I mentioned before, neil seemed to think that he wasn't going to get shot, I think. This tells me that he probably conceded to losing ChriVi. This kind of implies that the other scum wasn't on the lynch... or else why would neil wait so long to join it? Also, remember, this was right at the deadline. So neil waited as long as possible before joining this. This tells me that ChriVi probably wasn't meant as a bus.

Then again, maybe neil didn't want to join the ChriVi wagon because there was already scum bussing ChriVi.

---

I might but into the cxinlee thing, heck, counter wagon was counter, but...it's not like there's much of an interaction there. Why do you feel it clears her so well?

I looked into cxinlee as a counterwagon, and neither neil nor ChriVi supported cxinlee as a counter wagon. I don't think cxinlee ever got much traction as a counterwagon. Besides, if cxinlee was scum, then it didn't really matter which wagon neil supported, yeah?

Also - if that clears cxinlee...why do you not think Neil cleared Victor?

Fair point, neil was a bit harsh on Victor. He hardly mentioned ChriVi. Do you think he'd have done the same thing with both of his scumpartners?

If we're going based on that logic, Victor and you are probably town, Rach, Sharp, AGar and I are probably the main suspects.

Anyway, after reading Victor/neil some more, along with VCA, I no longer think Victor is the best lynch today.

UNVOTE: VictorDeAngelo

---

rach then?

Maybe. SG seems more likely to me, if not Victor.

---

Which is completely unnecessary if they're scum partners.

I completely disagree. This reads totally like it could be scum coaching to me. In fact, it reads much more like coaching than it does like anything townish.

VOTE: Squirrel Girl

@RC, he didn't seem that confident he wasn't going to be shot to me. He pushed Reinoe to discredit him because he was afraid the answer was too obvious IMO.

If that's the case, why did he vote ChriVi at all? He could've just feigned as though he wasn't around at the deadline and hope that the town dropped the ball.

---

@Everyone

Let's do a little unofficial vote here about a mass claim.

I do not support a mass claim. I do not think the minor benefits outweigh the minor negatives. As you've said, the primary benefits are that we save time in case we push the vig to L-1 (of course, the vig may never be wagoned to begin with), and that we have one more confirmed town to work with today. The minor negatives being that the scum have more options to choose from as far as kills go (vig, reinoe or Knell), and that the vig is effectively handcuffed to shooting tonight. I don't know if the vig should shoot tonight necessarily. What do you think?

[Knell]

He prob figured he would get shot 100% if he was off the wagon. Why would it be unrelated to the game according to Neil if idk was either his scum partner or they were both town? /:

[RedCoyote]

I don't think it's unrelated to the game, Knell. I think it's very related to the game, just in the opposite way that you do. I think that's a damning post to SG. It looks like a prime example of coaching. You know what I mean when I say coaching don't you?

[Knell]

What I am stating is that Neil said it was unrelated to the game before empathy chat. If idk was his scum partner it would be related to the game because he would be giving his scum partner advice. If idk was town however it would be truly alignment neutral and "outside" the game because then he advice was given from a neutral party outside of of Neil's current alignment.

[Knell]

To put it simply the only reason to use that language I if he's either neutral or clarifying is because he was playing against his win condition . By giving town advice. But there's plenty of other information to go through.Why do you think squirrel voted Chrivi? If they're scum buds? Why at that particular time in that particular way?

[reinoe]

To put it simply the only reason to use that language I if he's either neutral or clarifying is because he was playing against his win condition . By giving town advice. But there's plenty of other information to go through.Why do you think squirrel voted Chrivi? If they're scum buds? Why at that particular time in that particular way?

SquirrelGirl was "leading" the wagon on ChriVi. That's practically unheard of for scum.
That plus the hard push to try and discredit my cop claim, there's also "being on every wagon except the one that lynches scum".

Once the popcorn claims are done I'm voting RedCoyote.

[Knell]

It seems like the easiest way to solve the "nobody believes Neil's claim" problem.

Are we going to lynch Neil today? Because I don't think we are, so it really doesn't matter to confirm him today or tomorrow. If a Vig kills him then we're already past the point of needing to much about with the JKer thing, and if a JKer wants to claim tomorrow we can debate that question then, and if none does then he can live until a JKer dies. Seems pretty simple to me.

Maybe I'm doing this wrong. Try completing this post:

"I don't think Victor is town because...."

...because he has done nothing I would deem a town tell, unlike other players have.

However, it's ironic how Squirrel kept pushing me, and was going to "destroy" my case but happened to post after everyone else.

That doesn't even make sense. Your post *was* destroyed. Like, multiple people saw how it didn't jive, I'm not sure why you think it's so unlikely that I wouldn't that I'd choose to lie about it.

Opportunistic scum vote? Appears to be so. Just stay on whatever wagon you think will likely get off the ground and get a lynch for, as long as it's not you or your teammates. Got it, good scum plan.

It's also a fine town plan. I've been pretty open that I have a lot of people I'd be fine lynching, and that my vote is pretty fluid right now. I mean, you're currently sheeping a guy you said you had something of a case on - so your vote is pretty fluid right now too, and that's fine, but why does that make when I do it questionable and when you do it fine? That said, if there is a Vig kill of you tonight, thanks for making me obv. town

also this. Plus deep consideration on claiming and thinking about what is best for town.

[RedCoyote]

Knell, I don't really understand the argument you're making about "empathy chat", I'm afraid. If someone else wants to try and explain it to me, that's fine, but what you are saying is not getting through to me at all. It's almost like a mish mash of words.

Why do you think squirrel voted Chrivi? If they're scum buds? Why at that particular time in that particular way?

SquirrelGirl was "leading" the wagon on ChriVi. That's practically unheard of for scum.

Y'all have never heard of bussing before? neil voted ChriVi too...

I don't think SG had a particularly hard push on ChriVi. See 989. I just don't think SG thought the ChriVi wagon would go through, nor did she particularly care if it did because ChriVi was rather useless toward the end. Anyway, this is all WIFOM.

Also, reinoe, I hope you aren't implying that I tried to discredit your cop claim. I never did anything of the sort. I've only distrusted neil from the second I replaced in (when he was T S O) to the second he was shot. I can cite numerous examples of this.

Plus deep consideration on claiming and thinking about what is best for town.

Scum can consider claiming deeply just as easily. Also, I'd hardly call her stance "thinking about what's best for town". She said she was indifferent. I mean, I considered the claiming idea deeply. Clearly AGar has as well. So you should be prepared to call us town with that logic.

[Knell]

Empathy chat. Neil's post was made with sympathetic overtones. He was trying to help someone feel better about themselves after they depreciated themselves for sucking. Neil said the post he was making to IDK was unrelated to the game. If you take what he says at face value, then they're not scum partners because scum partners giving each other advice is related to the game because it potentially improves their performance. You might say the same for giving advice to town as scum, as it would be related to the game and be against his win condition to try and improve the performance of town by giving advice to town. But to me, contextually speaking, it makes more sense for him to clarify that it was unrelated to the game because he was playing against his win condition as there is more motivation to mention your current post being unrelated when it's against your win condition than strictly unrelated to your win condition.

I'm not going to explain this a 4th time.

[singersigner]

Votecount

Sharpest-Knife-On-Tree (1) - Knell
Squirrel Girl (1) - RedCoyote


not voting (6) - RachMarie, AGar, reinoe, Sharpest-Knife-On-Tree, VictorDeAngelo

With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

[Squirrel Girl]

I'll admit to immediate omgus knee-jerk as regards Red.

He actually ignored most of his wagon analysis when he decided I was scum, as I was not in his questionable areas half the time. By his own wagon analysis, Rach was actually in more compromising points than I - even if he wanted to argue that I was in bad spots somehow.

Also, he agrees on me clearing his push, and then decides I am scum without asking why I would, as scum, stop town him from pushing on someone who is a very reasonable mislynch du jour...and who, Red was pushing.

Eh, not a fan. Let's finish the claims, if Red is a Vig he can shoot me tonight and we'll sort that one quick. If Red isn't the vig maybe we'll lynch him today. I'm sort of debating between him and Rach at this stage (omgus is a helluva drug). I don't really think it's Victor or cxinlee. I'm maybe a little paranoid on Sharpest for some of the connections pointed out earlier, especially now that Neil flipped scum, but his town frustration seemed very good to me. The best I can say about Rach is that she was the track target Neil claimed, but the more I think about it, outing the Cop at that stage, with a Vig in the game, and knowing this, probably wasn't that crazy desirable. I think scum would have mostly wanted an outed Vig at that stage, and not to force a Cop claim. I dunno, lots of wine.

[Squirrel Girl]

Barring a different scum using wine, Red scum would also justify a Toasty kill over any other confirmed target. Toasty was pretty focused on...well, a lot of people, but he looked like a likely tunnel rage on Red or Cxinlee today. Maybe Sharpest too, he kinda threw that out at the end. But the Red line of thought was pretty constant.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Barring a different scum using wine, Red scum would also justify a Toasty kill over any other confirmed target. Toasty was pretty focused on...well, a lot of people, but he looked like a likely tunnel rage on Red or Cxinlee today. Maybe Sharpest too, he kinda threw that out at the end. But the Red line of thought was pretty constant.

huh?

[Squirrel Girl]

Toast dying looks to benefit Red scum more than any other theory scum - unless the purpose of theory scm was to make us think that, therefore, wifom.

[RachMarie]

I am VT

popcorn to RC

[AGar]

The minor negatives being that the scum have more options to choose from as far as kills go (vig, reinoe or Knell), and that the vig is effectively handcuffed to shooting tonight.

Why

wouldn't

the vig shoot tonight?

Like holy hell, he or she should be shooting from the pool of non-confirmeds left tonight or he is literally doing the town a disservice.

Which would you rather have - 16%/25%/50% or 20%/33%/50%

I like the latter option. Not to mention that mass claiming now takes a LYLO counterclaim out of play. Scum are now forced to either counterclaim on Day 3 and force a 50/50 and lose the game because we lynch one and if that's wrong we lynch the other, OR they ride out with a VT claim and gamble on the long odds. The longer we put off the mass claim, the more advantageous a counterclaim from scum becomes and the less we as a town stand to gain from it.

Also, giving scum MORE options to shoot from helps us because it tells us MORE about the reads the players have. When you have 3 confirmed town and 1 scum remaining, they're going to be selecting their kills based on who poses the biggest threat to them. I'd bet money I don't have on that. It gives us more information to work with down the line and it gives the last standing confirmed town player the ability to really have a ton of information to sort through.

[AGar]

Toast dying looks to benefit Red scum more than any other theory scum - unless the purpose of theory scm was to make us think that, therefore, wifom.

Toast died because he was 100% confirmed town, fwiw. His reads clearly held something more than Knell's but it was literally a choice between the two of them only for the scum. Reinoe still could have been (from a town POV) counterclaimed going into today with a vig shot confirming the existence of a vig.