In post 116, Does Bo Know wrote:Fuzzy’s
24 right after Horus’s
22 seems off.
Agreed. Note this is negative statement 1 about Fuzzy (will be keeping count).
Wouldn't put a negative there. Also, Fuzzy does state later that a "town response" would be to ignore...something. I don't know exactly where, but it's in his ISO, and ignoring Horus's 22 could be his own interpretation of a "town response."
...that doesn’t look like scum hopping on a wagon yet but okay.
"But okay" meaning you condone votes for false reasons? Miss Destroyer Negative 1
I disagreed with the vote, but again, wouldn't put a negative there just because I disagreed
is bad. Horus is asking the first serious question of the game and Zionite tries to shoot it down. Horus’s vote doesn’t look over-justified at all.
This is one of Horus's questions that I liked because it got the game out of RVS, and it looked like it could give Fuzzy some pressure. Zionite looked scummy for it because it was indeed the only serious comment about the game thus far.
also disagree. Horus doesn’t look like he’s overreacting.
Why do you think fuzzy chooses to interpret it this way? Assuming this is a negative statement, this puts Fuzzy at 2
Note: Grim likes assuming I think people look scummy because I disagree with them.
: He’s not flailing. Jesus.
45: Wow, that was really quick.
Meh, I guess this is sorta scummy, but not enough to give Zionite another scum point.
: Eh. Wisdom normally asks questions like that, so I don’t agree with the vote.
Don't see how I could know what Wisdom normally asks, but the main point of that mainly RVS vote (at the time) was to show how easily his own argument can be used against him. Post
35 postulates a universal wisdom, yet Wisdom decided to take it personally (despite the funny name coincidence). If there's any overreaction that can be demonstrated in this topic, it's this one. Grimgroove negative 1
It's called a meta search. Wisdom literally has links to his meta in his signature. I'd also like to disagree because your vote shouldn't have been RVS if there was a reason for it, and it's certainly pretty late for you to come in with an RVS vote when so much had happened already. Also didn't think you were scummy for this.
and
54 I agree with.
1 positive for fuzzybutternut (putting fuzzy at 1 negative) and 1 positive for Malakittens
It's some more positive points for agreeing with players? lolno.
Zionite misses Fuzzy’s point on this page. Fuzzy’s point is, that Zionite’s sole vote on a lurker will not make the lurker post more, as a sole vote isn’t very good pressure.
Is missing that point scummy? Is making the point townish? I also disagree with your synopsis of the discussion, post
56clearly shows fuzzybutternut turning a "vote on a lurker" into an "easy lynch". In my experience, they are not easy lynches. This entire discussion and the allegations contained in it are based on a false assumption. As far as the "vote a lurker" is concerned, the only thing actually taking place, I think that trying to activate people is a townish thing to do, no matter which method or whether or not it works. A vote is one of the most intuitive methods to do so within the set-up of maffia games.
THANK GOD you're actually realizing that
you don't know
whether things I say mean I call it townish or scummish. That also wasn't a synopsis of the entire discussion. I was just saying, that Zionite was misunderstanding something Fuzzy said. And I still agree that sole votes aren't that great of pressure. Sole votes have to happen of course, but Zionite was giving himself much more credit than he should have for voting you.
looks like subtly accusing Fuzzy of being scum. Ugh.
Why is it a bad thing to accuse fuzzy? Negative for Zionite 4
NO that's clearly not my point. He's
subtly
doing it, as opposed to
outright
doing it. Something I frown upon on players: if you clearly think someone is scummy, say it, instead of trying to beat around the bush. And it's also a problem because I haven't seen where Zionite could possibly consider Fuzzy scummy for scum in any of his posts thus far.
Yeah, but
64 is wrong actually. You can get more votes on a wagon without getting a lynch. Granted, a
sole
vote on a player will not apply the pressure he’s looking for, so I think it is a useless vote, but wagons =/= lynches.
Fail to see your point here. You're referring to a quote with a couple of dots under it, and I don't see how your comment relates to the quote. I'm assuming another negative for Zionite 5
It wasn't just the post, but the argument about wagons not being the same as lynches. Just because someone has a wagon, doesn't mean that everyone on the wagon wants a lynch at that time. Wagons give more pressure (which is another reason why I put Zionite at L-1, but apparently Zionite hadn't reacted to that, so whatevs). But basically, this does
not
mean Zionite is scummy just because they disagree on game theory.
: ^^^
Horus positive 1. But this is one of the instances where I don't necessarily agree. Nobody (except for RachMarie) knew me, and everyone reacts differently, even to single votes. A single vote tells you someone is noticing you, and this kind of attention does manage to garner reactions from time to time. If not immediately, defintely on the longer term. Zionite's priority was not to garner support for a wagon, but to get a reaction from me.
My point here was that voting for a lurker will, most likely, not pressure the lurker to post any faster. Did Zionite's vote on you make you want to post what you wanted to say any faster? If not, then that's exactly my point: Zionite's vote on you wouldn't have made a difference, yet Zionite believes that he made a much bigger difference.
is a good catch-up. Pretty much follows my thought process.
Putting Grimgroove at 0 again.
Normally, yeah, I slightly town read people that follow my processes.
: Dammit Fuzzy, you’re being stubborn. And I thought I had some sort of townread on you.
Despite fuzzy already being at minus 1 at this point, you claim to have a townread on him. Based on what? Anyway, this puts him at 2 negatives.
Townread on Fuzzy because of his activity early in the game: Fuzzy is generally the type to try to scumhunt, no matter how stupid it looks. Later in the game, though, his scumhunting looks less and less prominent. This is exactly why points are stupid in the first place.
is more scummy scum-scum posting. He legitimately thinks that his vote on Grimgroove helped pressure him, when it didn’t. Literally, Grim’s posting wasn’t very affected by Zionite’s vote, and Grim got over the vote once he saw it was just because he was lurking. Then he unvotes when given an answer. Which is what I predicted would happen, but then he doesn’t place a vote anywhere, after thinking a sole vote on a player provides pressure? Ugh.
Zionite 6. Why is him thinking that his vote made a difference scummy? As town it's basically the only pressure tool you have, so it's quite a depressing thing to automatically assume it doesn't. In this case, you're right, it didn't, but I don't see the point of blaming him for trying and for believing in what he was trying to do.
It's scummy because he's saying it made a difference multiple times, as to make sure people know he's being a townie by being useful. I thought he was overstating his useful vote on you (which, IMO, wasn't useful) too
seem
townie to everyone. Also, townies have
words
besides votes to pressure people.
: I don’t like this either. He ignores the vote on him, and instead posts something to Zionite. I feel like Wisdom could be ignoring it because he doesn’t want to “overreact” to Grim.
Wisdom negative 1. I agree and am still waiting for a response to all of my questions to Wisdom. He did not respond to any of them.
Yeah, I guess this would be sort of a scum point. My most recent question is an attempt to see if he only responds to questions that require little effort to answer.
: Except Zionite is probably just pretending his activity is meaningful. So apparently that’s working to appease you, Grim.
How do you "pretend" meaningfulness? It is one of the things that is unpretendable, or if it is only on the short term. He's got me convinced with his constructive activity, just like you did yourself with your catch-up post. As long as he keeps it meaningful I see no point in lynching him, and if he's pretending we'll notice soon enough. I'd call this an interpretive opinion. Zionite 7
Firstly, you put Zionite at 7 even though it's the same exact fucking point I made for you to put him at 6, so that's stupid. He's overplaying his meaningfulness. If you could point out 2 good examples of useful things he's done this game, post them and I'll try to look at them again. I'm pretty confident I won't be swayed though.
: Not going after Fuzzy because he feels it’ll draw more attention to him? Doing it after the wagon blows over? Scum scum.
That's not what that says. What do you think of the argument that he puts forward about leads not getting any traction when the main suspect is advertising it? Zionite 8
I don't understand the question. But I was focusing on the last green section of text in this post; not only was he asking me a question, but he responded to your points as well in that post, remember? The way I see it: a good townie shouldn't have to make decisions to make sure that he/she himself/herself looks townie. The townie should just do what he/she can to hunt scum, and that if it's a real townie, he/she can easily explain the reasons if the town is humble enough. So yeah, this is another reason I like Zionite for scum.
And again, don’t see why the rush with the vote is bad. It’s not like I hammered.
Added pressure, made my presence known, confidence that Zionite was scum at the time.
: To prevent accidental quickhammers, I either
bold a statement
saying it’s L-1, or make an individual post that clearly states it’s L-1. Soooo if someone still does, it means they aren’t paying that close attention to the game. It’s also telling depending on whether the wagoned player flips scum or not.
Is someone not paying close attention to the game a neglectable risk? And how does the last sentence add up with the rest? What would be telling? Your L-1 vote? Or the hammer? Telling in what way? If the hammerer didn't pay attention as you assume it wouldn't be telling in his case.
Some people vote other players at L-1, and don't count the votes and realize that they hammered. The last sentence adds up, because some derphammers are useful depending on what the lynched person flips. If they flip scum, it's highly unlikely that the accidental derphammer-er is scum, since scum would usually be more likely to make sure the partner stays alive. If they flip town, then yeah the derphammer-er would be heavily looked at, maybe scum, but not for sure. I still feel like I didn't answer your question correctly, though, and if I didn't I'm sorry, try asking it again. :embarrassed:
UUUGGGHHHH I wanna call this a scum post but it’s Rach, and I can’t read her in any game well ever.
At the time I made this comment, yeah, it was pretty fluffy to say something like this, but it was also a small warning that Rach shouldn't be read as scum simply because her playstyle may not strike well with others (including myself). However, shouldn't have been a point for Rach.
: Bad vote. Normally I’d be fine with that reason from a player that’s active (I was actually looking to draw attention with my L-1 vote), but from Grim, who’s first real game-related post also didn’t contain much explanation
because he was away
...I just don’t like that.
Grimgroove minus 1. How was I not active? You just complemented my first real-game related post
71 in this very list.
Also, just for the sake of it, let's assume I was the perfect player in your eyes, obvtown and all that. Let's just pretend. Could you respond to the arguments instead of making false statements about the person making them?
It's not that you weren't active. It's that your first post barely had any content in it because of limited time, yes? But even though I voted L-1 without explaining (with my first post having barely any content), it was because I liked the idea of putting Zionite at L-1, but I didn't have the resources to say why. You assumed I didn't have any reasons because I hadn't shared them yet, and
that's literally the only scummy thing you had against me at this point.
It irritates me that you pride yourself on thinking people that interpret "fakeness" and such incorrectly are scum, yet when you interpret my posts as "lack of a case against Zionite" when that's exactly what it
wasn't
, it's okay.
Anyway, here’s why
110 was bad to me: I was going to make details about it, but Mala didn’t think I was. Third player to say something about it, so it gives Mala an option to switch to me. When he says he likes where his vote is already, my gut tells me it could be scum staying on the bigger wagon, hoping a lynch could occur, and if Zionite’s lynch doesn’t happen, he can switch to me. And if the lynch does happen, and Zionite flips town, he can assume I’m scum based on that.
Mala back to 0. I agree with this statement.
That’s all gut, though. In fact, I’m more confident Mala is town if Zionite flips scum, and I am confident Mala is scum if Zionite flips town.
Why single them out as an evident "non-pair"?
Why not? What's the problem?
: Fuzzy’s still VI here, but not scum to me yet. His town play usually consists of thinking he’s scumhunting. And here, he could be thinking he’s scumhunting, but it’s too early to tell. I feel like pursuing Fuzzy won’t be helpful right now.
When will it be? Fuzzy minus 3
Who knows? But here's the thing: like you, who assumes some players are scummy but keep them around because they'd normally dig their own grave later, I do the same thing to VI's. Fuzzy is a VI to me. See, again, another reason you putting points on people based on my viewpoints is stupid: you don't know my viewpoints.
I still like my Zionite vote.
Given this whole list is mainly a tunnel interspersed with occasional unconclusive comments on any other players I guess this doesn't come as a surprise to anyone.
I don't really see myself as tunneling, but the truth is, I don't have a lot of town reads so far, or a lot of reads at all. So it may look like I'm tunneling Zionite, when in truth no one else had been excessively scummy.
