512: Bojack Horseman Season 2 (Over)

[sthar8]

Spoiler: outside of game

I'm still trying to hang on for TSO and because I don't replace out, but I'm emotionally pretty checked out.

Please don't do this for me. Seriously. You don't have to. I mean that.

I have replaced out twice ever in 7 years. I can endure a shitty MYLO.

TSO, message me if you need to talk. Seriously.

I will. But - and I mean this completely seriously - you have it far worse than I do. Mine is both momentary and rare. It's incredibly mild.

All pain is temporary. That doesn't mean talking about it can't be helpful.

[sekai no ki]

I get that you're likely just doing your job as scum and I admire that but god it fucking kills me to watch everyone dance like a puppet on your strings.

What are you talking about?

This feels like an empty attack. No substance. Just smear.

[sthar8]

I mean, as far as I'm concerned one of fire and sekai is guaranteed scum.

do you really think this shitcase comes from either of ffery or pie as town?

I like how you speak so authoritatively about someone you're playing your first game with.

Are you high? We talked about this

in this thread

. I've seen your towngame in the last AP large, which spanned months and was easily more draining than this game. And pie played in TM against me.

[T S O]

It's in my ISO, the entire evolution.

Which backs up that you haven't read the game.

[sekai no ki]

I mean, as far as I'm concerned one of fire and sekai is guaranteed scum.

do you really think this shitcase comes from either of ffery or pie as town?

I like how you speak so authoritatively about someone you're playing your first game with.

Are you high? We talked about this

in this thread

. I've seen your towngame in the last AP large, which spanned months and was easily more draining than this game. And pie played in TM against me.

You're right. I did forget about that game. Didn't you say you were mostly absent there?

[sekai no ki]

It's in my ISO, the entire evolution.

Which backs up that you haven't read the game.

No, what you've posted so far is about as substantive as that crack about puppeteering. I want to know what it is about his play that makes you certain he's town.

[T S O]

Spoiler: outside of game

I'm still trying to hang on for TSO and because I don't replace out, but I'm emotionally pretty checked out.

Please don't do this for me. Seriously. You don't have to. I mean that.

I have replaced out twice ever in 7 years. I can endure a shitty MYLO.

It is shitty, isn't it?

TSO, message me if you need to talk. Seriously.

I will. But - and I mean this completely seriously - you have it far worse than I do. Mine is both momentary and rare. It's incredibly mild.

All pain is temporary. That doesn't mean talking about it can't be helpful.

I agree, but it's really not worth talking about. Trust me, I'd know if it was. I'm not too proud to know that. And me talking to you about these thing is just silly given how easy I have it compared to you. I'm not saying that sentence for the sake of it.

[T S O]

Spoiler: nothing substantial

So, I read ETL's ISO regarding sthar. I do not feel particularly sold. That's not meant to sound insulting, but there were really only a few bits that did anything for me - her analysis of the difference between his townplay and scumplay, for example.

okay yeah I'm finished reading sthar's posts.

I hate to give such a shit wishy-washy read, but I can see good stuff and bad stuff and I haven't really balanced it yet. But, no, I don't feel particularly enthused on a sthar vote right now.

I think a lot of stuff he's done is null - that whole thing with Firebringer's job, for example. I know he does it as town, but he can also easily do it as scum, and he has no reason not to since it's essentially a smokescreen. I thought the timing in his self-vote was a little odd. He selfvoted at 9:31, and typed another post with the unvote which came at 9:33. I just think that if a competent town player decided to selfvote because they were so demoralised, they would have thought it through a little. Even if they then decided against it, they wouldn't make that decision in a minute. Maybe if it was coming from a rash player, I would feel better about it, but that's one trait I wouldn't attribute to him. The speed at which it came makes it feel a little too calculated. Sometimes it feels like there's a lack of scumhunting in his ISO - I really hate when people use this accusation in general because so often it's to cover up a flimsy scumread, but it's true. I think normally town-sthar would be more aggressive with ETL. When I complain as town about a wagon on me I usually pick out one person, either for their awful vote or because I expect better of them. ETL fits the latter criteria pretty easily and I don't know why sthar didn't push her back when he was complaining about the wagon on him. A lot of the things he's doing are extremely safe - "I don't want to sort ETL by d1 lynch" is kinda backing off ETL and a little incongruous given that I can't remember him townreading her once this game. But it's pretty obvious he's kinda demotivated, so I can't really draw a conclusion there. I think a lot of the things ETL levelled against him are unfair - for example, where she calls his #1009 scum gloating. It's not. No-one really seems to have an articulate case on him and I'd expect some kind of kickback if he was scum from his scumpartner given that bussing is kinda anathema in a game like this. It's more like the scumteam are just content to let the hours run down and we eventually agree that he's the best lynch for today and lynch him and it's a town mislynch. I have no idea why individual players want to lynch him and I'd like to hear why given that there's a lot of static rather than real information when it comes to that.

ffery feels he doesn't look like he's legitimately scum hunting.

This is a fair point, given that I thought the same.

She thinks the whole "profiling" thing re: Firebringer looked almost like busywork and that it was a very unnatural direction to take with him. pie has her own thoughts on the "profiling", most of which she's explained already (she thinks it looks extremely similar to what he did in the Team Mafia game where he asked her a bunch of playstyle-related questions that had nothing to do with the actual game, probably in order to serve as a distraction. P-EDIT: This might not be the case anymore pending her looking through the game sthar linked and researching other games where he did this)

So this isn't really anything.

she also thinks the scum hunting sthar has done when he has scum hunted has been relatively shallow (the Kaboose case as the primary example).

I'm not sure I can count "not scumhunting" and "scumhunting shallow when scumhunting" as different points. They're not exactly similar, but they bear a lot of resemblance.

I think you're applying hindsight to this. Something that makes no sense but has advantage for scum is a good place to wagon on day1. I'm happy to admit that I was probably wrong, but I still think it was a good place to push.

no, i thought as much when it first happened, and i still think it was a poor reason for scum reading him. i think alignment regardless, he would have assumed he could push that "wisdom being different = scum wisdom" without needing to go back and check what his alignment was first. and i think it's very atypical for scum to lie about something like that, given it entirely has to do with how he plays (given enough games, i would expect you could go and find more cases similar to this where he made assumptions based around previous games without checking it first).

i fail to see why town-kaboose would necessarily *have* to check what wisdom's alignment was before pushing him, as you're insinuating here. i think you should know better than to push this kind of semantic issue on somebody without considering the possibility that he just remembered wrong or wasn't thinking correctly

I'm not really sure why this garners a scumread, to tell the truth. Even if you think it's a sloppy argument, I'd venture that he is more likely to be sloppy as town than as scum.

Your case seems to essentially be "not scumhunting". Which is fair enough. I just don't feel confident pushing it given that it sometimes feels when I read back like sthar's not always fully there in the game, and that is a pretty decent explanation to the lack of scumhunting. It might not be right, but it seems more likely than "not scumhunting because scum". I will admit that him not being here isn't a towntell at all, but if you're making a case for him being scum I'm not sure I can run with that.

I also think that you're smart enough to see that, so I fail to understand where your confidence in sthar-scum is coming from. It's the consensus lynch right now, which you are eagerly pushing, and I feel like it has barely any basis.

My actual reads are sthar-town (I feel he's cleared up my issues pretty indisputably), sepai-maybescum, ms-maybescum.

But I don't find that particularly scummy, given that if I, the person in ETL's slot, thought that ETL's case was poor-to-non-existent, it seems extremely likely he thought the same, and it follows that she's more likely to be scum who wants an easy mislynch rather than that bad as town. I also agree that my entrance is pretty town, though I would say that anyway, given that all I had to do as scum was ...nothing in order to gain a free sthar mislynch. He is also likely to townread me given that I'm essentially the only one who really wants him alive - that's an extremely town reaction. (Though again it's also what he would do as scum, so it's not indicative one way or the other, but it doesn't make him scum.)

how much have you played with Sthar8?

I'm fairly sure we've played a lot together. Upwards of five games, at least. I'm not the authority on his play but it's pretty familiar to me.

I am thinking of voting MS, but I want to be fully sure that I want to on its own merits, before I do.

I don't think we'd join you on that vote today.

Why?

[sekai no ki]

Yeah. Much of it was wishy washy, as you yourself characterized it. None of it really resonates for me - like I can't look at his posts and think to myself "this is what TSO sees or is writing about", and none of it explains why you'd have more than a null read of him.

[T S O]

I will bet any credibility I have that what I have quoted is a far better towncase than the scumcase you will make.

[T S O]

"None of it resonates" is the most bullshit way ever of saying "I don't like this so I'm going to choose to not take it on board."

[T S O]

I also liked how you went from "you haven't said anything" to "okay you've said loads but it doesn't resonate bye".

[T S O]

I have no idea why I am trying to engage a scumread on the subject of a towncase on a player that they themselves has pushed all game.

[sthar8]

illustrative purposes

i was gonna quote fferypie's 'case' on me, but i've got too much stuff do do. maybe later.

[sekai no ki]

"None of it resonates" is the most bullshit way ever of saying "I don't like this so I'm going to choose to not take it on board."

I also liked how you went from "you haven't said anything" to "okay you've said loads but it doesn't resonate bye".

If you're town, then assume for just a short while that I am town too, and that I don't want to lose this game by mislynching someone. I'd rather have been yesterday's lynch than be wrong today.

I'm asking for you to show me how what you're saying about him fits what he's posted.

You're describing me as hard-tunneling. That's not something I get called out for often, but it does happen.

If he's town, then he's never really given any consideration to why we might be town and wrong rather than scum.

That's what you're accusing us of doing.

Suspend disbelief or whatever for a few minutes and show me how this terrible mutual misread happened and what we're getting wrong.

[sekai no ki]

You too, sthar. If you're town, then our mutual scumreads guarantee a town loss.

[T S O]

That will probably take a while, so I'm going to do it tomorrow.

[sthar8]

I mean, as far as I'm concerned one of fire and sekai is guaranteed scum.

do you really think this shitcase comes from either of ffery or pie as town?

I like how you speak so authoritatively about someone you're playing your first game with.

Are you high? We talked about this

in this thread

. I've seen your towngame in the last AP large, which spanned months and was easily more draining than this game. And pie played in TM against me.

You're right. I did forget about that game. Didn't you say you were mostly absent there?

from the thread, yes. doesn't mean i didn't read the game.

[sthar8]

If he's town, then he's never really given any consideration to why we might be town and wrong rather than scum.

this is a fucking lie.

[sekai no ki]

Then you know that nacho and I were wrong just about as often as we were right and that the only reason we were off the table as a lynch option was for the most part due to being copped.

[sekai no ki]

If he's town, then he's never really given any consideration to why we might be town and wrong rather than scum.

this is a fucking lie.

Then I don't remember it. :/

I'll go back and look tonight.

[sekai no ki]

Rereading the game, I'm leaning a lot more town on TSO. his reactions to pieguy in several posts, particularly 1481 feel very much like town irritation about being misunderstood.

The reread also pointed up a lot of places where Polar Vortex was seeing the game similarly to us. The MS interactions overshadowed that in my memory.

I get small flashes of paranoia about Firebringer being so sure we're town now, mostly on the basis of one game with me, a game where he was paranoid about me all the way through day 3. :/ But, I've developed similarly strong thumbnail models of player's behavior on the basis of one game. Strong in terms of how right I thought the models were in mid-test.

The reread didn't do much to change my opinion of sthar8, and it reinforce my sense that Wingback should be in the frame.

TSO, we're going to write a detailed sthar8 case for you. It will probably be sometime late tomorrow before it's ready for prime time.

[Firebringer]

So sekai if its not sthar8 and TSO. Who is sthar8 teammate? WingBack? I doubt heavily that it is Polar.

[Wingback]

Busy week for me so expect sporadic and low activity.

Still cant decide what to do. Maybe i am overthinking it. We've eliminated me/tso, me/polar, and polar/tso.

Can we no lynch? A smaller pool will help for me.

[Firebringer]

Busy week for me so expect sporadic and low activity.

Still cant decide what to do. Maybe i am overthinking it. We've eliminated me/tso, me/polar, and polar/tso.

Can we no lynch? A smaller pool will help for me.

I am fine with no lynch, but you not wanting a lynch right now sounds like you are tryign to save s8thar from being lynched.

See my problem with you saying this at this point and not earlier? earlier, I would be like "yes, someone agrees with me!" right now when we got a wagon going its like "I don't want my ally lynched"