Mini 1352: Leprechaun Mafia - Game over

[Tammy]

He's not town scumhunter.

[Tammy]

Here if you won't listen to my interpretation, listen to confirmed town.

confirming that bv targeted scumhunter n1

i'm not certain epm is as town as people think since his early comments on pine were waffly as fuck and his reaction to shinori was basically what i'd expect from scum realizing "oh shit my expendable buddy looks horrible" and he was willing to help start a doomyoshi wagon before immediately pushing for shinori. he didn't actually start shinori's wagon until scumhunter switched, which isn't what i'd expect from a townie who just saw scum being scummy as fuck. worst case scenario would've been somebody going "no way you're getting support on that shinori lynch, sorry" and epm switching back

also,

I'm still down for Yoshi, but all this back and forth is getting to be too much and can't go on for much longer, eventually the number of people who are actually gonna be on in time to vote for whichever way our whims swing isn't gonna be enough.

he left himself room to switch back to yoshi even though he kept pushing shinori's claim, and it's totally reasonable for scum to keep voting their buddy post-claim if they think town will be dumb enough to unvote

VOTE: evilpacman18

i'm ok with fuduzn lynch too i guess. still lazy about this game

tl;dr epm doesn't really look that great, his interactions with shinori are actually very shaky, like he wanted to avoid getting shinori lynched if possible

[Scumhunter]

Also we should have really focused on this before, but it still doesn't make sense for Fu to be roleblocked night 3.

[Tammy]

No, I agree, not when WM wasn't blocked from tracking.

[Scumhunter]

EPM, look at day 1 man, Bvoigt and Shinori were both on my wagon up to L-1 with other large wagons available. From your town pov, you are saying both my partners were voting me (what to you would be a confirmed mafia roleblocker) up to L-1 where I subsequently claim VT and then try to quick lynch my partner?

[Tammy]

He's not town.

[Tammy]

Then there's this:

I actually think Armageddon is town, even if his post was kinda bad. Me/FuDuzn/petapan wouldn't make sense as a scum team, but I can relate to having top suspects that probably aren't scumbuddies. I think this just shows that he's legitimately trying to scumhunt instead of worrying about making his reads appear perfect. Working Manju also looks town.

Call my predecessor town.

I actually think Armageddon is town, even if his post was kinda bad. Me/FuDuzn/petapan wouldn't make sense as a scum team, but I can relate to having top suspects that probably aren't scumbuddies. I think this just shows that he's legitimately trying to scumhunt instead of worrying about making his reads appear perfect. Working Manju also looks town.

no see agreeing with the reasoning of people that he thinks are scum is why he's scum - you can't suspect someone while also thinking what they say makes sense

That's a pretty good point, actually....

Okay thinks peta makes a good point but doesn't say he thinks my predecessor is scum.

right now I'd like everybody to say which of Pine/scumhunter/epm they'd be most interested in wagoning as a support check since people don't seem to agree on much. personal priorities are Pine > scumhunter > epm

I'd prefer Scumhunter.

Notice that WM here is wanting to lynch his partner. He doesn't take the opportunity to bus, and as I pointed out in my irrelevant post that showed how they interacted with one another, bvoigt defended Pine.

It looks like the deadline is just 3 days away. Unofficial vote count:

evilpacman18 [4]: Scumhunter, Servanto, Gregory, flinter
FuDuzn [2]: bvoigt, Pine
Armageddon [2]: petapan, crypto
bvoigt [1]: Armageddon
Pine [1]: Working Manju
Gregory [1]: evilpacman18
crypto [1]: FuDuzn
Not Voting [1]: JordanA24

UNVOTE: FuDuzn
VOTE: Armageddon

I'd prefer this lynch over EPM.

The last mention he had of Armageddon he said peta had a good point, but before that he had called Armaggedon town. He had been arguing for fuduzn being scum the whole time, but here at deadline of day one when it looked likely for pacman to be lynched, he swings his momentum to the wagon of someone he had previous called town because he preferred it over epm. Now since he was sitting with his partner Pine on the fuduzn wagon, he definitely didn't mind voting with his partner, so there's not that.

It looks very much like he was trying to save his partner from a lynch here.

You guys know the deadline is in 2 days, right?

I agree with WM that Shinori is being overly defensive in #705 and #716.

DoomYoshi is pretty much null for me. I'm willing to vote him, of course.

Unofficial vote count:
evilpacman18 [3]: Gregory, FuDuzn, flinter
DoomYoshi [2]: Shinori, evilpacman18
Flinter [2]: Tammy, DoomYoshi
Scumhunter [2]: petapan, crypto
FuDuzn [1]: denisatp
Shinori [1]: Working Manju
Tammy [1]: bvoigt
Not voting (1): Scumhunter

Well, Tammy would be my preferred lynch, but it's probably not happening at this point.

UNVOTE: Tammy
VOTE: Scumhunter

He does the same thing here. After spending oodles of time and computer ink spouting about how I'm scum, we get near deadline and he moves to scumhunter. Now this one isn't as suspicious as the previous one because he'd been saying that scumhunter was scum the whole time, but he still moves momentum to another wagon when pacman was the leading wagon and evened it up with scumhunter.

It's true that gregory was never in danger, but pacman was, and it looks like he made an effort to save pacman when he was in trouble.

[Scumhunter]

He's probably not, but I want to see his explanation and I still think we should no lynch regardless.

Fu, who you do think is scum? Specifically, what are your thoguhts on Tammy right now?

[Tammy]

Are you doubting fuduzn?

[FuDuzn]

Also we should have really focused on this before, but it still doesn't make sense for Fu to be roleblocked night 3.

I basically claimed a PR on Day 3, so it would make sense that I was blocked. Also even if I wasn't, if EPM is scum and got my friendly neighbor PM then it is reasonable that he would say he didn't receive anything.

And about Tammy, I said it yesterday but I just can't see her faking the emotion she showed. In my experience scum would not act the way she has acted.

I still do think the no lynch is best, but I am very tempted to vote epm.

[evilpacman18]

siiiiigh. You're right SH.

vote: Tammy

[Tammy]

^^^^^^ SCUM CLAIM. LYNCH IT!

[Tammy]

And about Tammy, I said it yesterday but I just can't see her faking the emotion she showed. In my experience scum would not act the way she has acted.

I probably wouldn't. I have a really really hard time caring about the games I play in as scum.

[Tammy]

Also we should have really focused on this before, but it still doesn't make sense for Fu to be roleblocked night 3.

I basically claimed a PR on Day 3, so it would make sense that I was blocked. Also even if I wasn't, if EPM is scum and got my friendly neighbor PM then it is reasonable that he would say he didn't receive anything.

But, what do you make of the fact that the tracker was not blocked? Night one, as I showed, made sense because they tried to kill WM. But, night two? They just let him track without trying to block him.

[Tammy]

What do both of you make of the fact that pacman doesn't want to go to night?

[Tammy]

Just so you know. If pacman were town, and actually suspected me now, he'd want to go to night. He would "know" that scumhunter wouldn't quicklynch tomorrow even if I laid down my vote first.

So now that he "suspects" me, he'd want to go to night to eliminate one of the other two and make it more likely town would win.

That is if he were town. But he's not.

[Scumhunter]

Tammy, I'm doubting Fu-town pretty much as little as possible.

EPM, you really need to explain your thought process please.

[Scumhunter]

Yea, the "we need to lynch scumhunter because he will quicklynch me" is pretty bad.
1) It doesn't explain why he's suspicious of me over you
2) Scum want to lynch today a) for the chance at an easier win b) to feel out support for different lynch options. By coming right out of the gate with an aggressive vote on me he can gauge the reaction from Fu-you as to how much support you have for my lynch and if it backfires can always back off and play on my latent suspicion of you tomorrow.

Tammy's vote on EPM has a lot more hutzpah behind it in that she seems like where she actually believes it. Where as EPM's vote wasn't very strong obviously. And from town-pov at this point the only reason you'd want to vote to lynch today is if you are very confident in your vote, which EPM wasn't...so...yea.

[Scumhunter]

Fu, the thing is this isn't Tammy's first trip around the block.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22956 NY 157
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22391 Lovers Mafia
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22454 Otherworld Mafia Vista

What do these games have in common? Tammy is scum and still posting walls with heaps of content. When I think to myself "why is Tammy town" the most I can come up with is Bvoigt's interaction on her wagon/my read on her which is kind of weak in a way because Tammy wagon never really took off so its hard to read too much into his stance on it. I mean EPM does look a lot worse, but if you are saying Tammy is town for being emotional with reactions, I really really disagree. Regardless of if she's town in this game, Tammy is definitely calculated enough and enough of a volume poster to be able to fake those things imo. I mean I'm an emotional player at times and can act emotionally as either alignment when threatened. The whole "I don't care if you lynch me" card is one that I would almost never pull as town and to me is actually a moderate scum-tell especially from most experienced players. Mostly playing devil's advocate here, still leaning very much towards an EPM lynch, mostly saying these things to think out loud/make myself feel better if Tammy is scum that I actually considered it.

Can't spend too much more time thinking about this game right now, need to sleep.

[Tammy]

You missed one:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p4146617 Closed Normal - My alt is Captain Leela, and is actually a better scum showing than any of the three you linked.

I wall as either alignment. I won't deny that at all. I try to post heaps of content because anyone who knows me knows that's my meta, but if you look at it you'll notice a pronounced difference in my content/amount of content I provide. Heck in Lovers Mafia, I didn't even post for an entire week and prod dodged before that week. If you also look at that you'll notice one other difference. A pronounced lack of emotional play (In CN, I did get into a fight with my partner that was absolutely genuine; he pissed me off but that's about all the emotion you get). You might think I'm able to fake emotions, but you don't know me so you're just basing this belief on something you've conjured up and not what is actually evident in any of my scum games. In fact, me attempting to fake emotions got me busted before and the only time I was genuinely really emotional in a scum game was when my grandfather died in the middle of a game I played. You should actually read those games because if you think that it portrays me as any way similar to here then I don't know what to tell you. I have a very very hard time caring about scum games and have only put forth decent showings a couple times. You should read GreyIce's last two things about me in the Closed Normal game. He's barely had any game experience with me at all, but was able to describe me pretty well there.

I did want to be lynched every day I said because I desperately did not want to be here in LyLo in a situation in which the only thing I could was town losing. No matter what I said, too many of you kept calling me scum and I thought town's best chance to win was for me to be gone before now. I still think that. I still worry that one or both of you won't get past the confirmation bias you've had for me all game and town will lose.

But, it's not actually fair to just look at my scum games and then guess at how calculated you think I am and apply it to here. Look at some town games too:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p4260141 Mini 1346 - This is the one I referenced before in which town lost because of me in LyLo. If you read that, read my reaction to KK near the end, and see how town lost because of me, maybe then you'll understand why I desperately wanted to be lynched before LyLo.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p4083756 I wasn't emotional here at all, but I did suggest/acknowledge it was best to lynch me before LyLo because I was a replacement to a suspicious slot. I didn't push it because people largely stopped suspecting me so even though I didn't want to be in LyLo, I didn't think of myself as a liability

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21773 experimental role mafia. Look at how I reacted to the day before endgame when Hiraki kept insisting I was scum the day before LyLo

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p4134527 Good versus Evil.

[Scumhunter]

I'm not conjuring up a read on you from nothing, its from experience with other players. I agree I don't know your playstyle well (obviously having never played with you before) and I get that an actoin from one player can be a bonafide scum tell, while with someone else it could be a bonafide town tell. For example, "I still worry you both won't get the conf. bias and up lynching me", I mean from a lot of people that attitude/the one you've had all game is pretty dang scummy. I mean Fu doesn't suspect you at all and I'm saying I'm leaning towards an EPM-lynch so I don't get where that anxiety/worry would come from. I mean the more we go on here, the more I see it could be just the way you are though. I still maintain that attitude is anti-town for a town player to have and reasonably easy to hide behind that meta as a scum player.

You do realize being lynched is the single worst outcome for your team's win condition no matter when it happens? In the end every lynch counts the same whether its d1 or lylo. Town only has so many mislynches and once one is gone, its gone. So I mean saying you wanted to be lynched for the betterment of the town is just plain not true. You may actually believe that, but I mean its not true. If you are scum, you obviously have an agenda you are hiding behind by saying that and if you are town, you are saying that because you don't want the hassle of defending yourself/feel too much personal responsibility for being lynched. Mafia is a team game and when a townie is lynched its often as much fault for the people voting the townie as the lynchee themselves. The negative nancy attitude will often become a self-fulfilling prophecy just saying, it has made me way more suspicious of you this game.

[evilpacman18]

My thought process is simple. My wall posting is done. At this point the game is simple. I'm worn out and I'm bummed that I'm about to get lynched but I don't have the energy or will to defend myself from it.
There's enough information for me to not even need to do work. A quick skim of isos tells me that Tammy is scum. bvoigt wasn't too interested in Tammy until the end where he started attacking her, as a distancing tool. It makes sense. Bvoigt neighborizing SH is interesting and I can see why he'd neighborize a scum buddy but it makes more sense that he wouldn't. 1654 is a good post, and the truth. It's as simple as that. I think the town has good reads and so many of the now-confirmed town died attacking Tammy, I think they were right.

Just. Idk. Whatever. Tammy is scum. It's pretty simple. You guys are making too big of a deal out of this. There's no need for walls anymore. Just think and vote. Mine's where I know it should be. Let's end this game.

[Tammy]

It actually isn't my meta though - yes, I got frustrated in 1346, and put myself in a 1v1 with hiraki at endgame in experimental, but I don't have a meta of wanting to get out of a game before lylo. I'm actually quite good at towing myself when I'm town. I've had people list me as their strongest scum read on day one and by day two have me in their strongest town reads. I've never really worried about being a liability before. I've, on occasion, thrown my hands up and in frustration told someone to lynch me near endgame but that's usually been when people get paranoid about me still being alive when they think I should have died days before and suggest lynching me even though I haven't done anything suspicious. (and that's not the best reaction either, but like I've said several times this game, I'm really working on my emotional reactions and failing a lot.)

I wish you would look at it from my perspective; I wasn't just suggesting my lynch as some sort of whimsical suggestion. I hate being mislynched. (it's only happened once, but still I hated it.). However, from my viewpoint over the past days it's what I thought would be the best outcome for town. I came in at L-1 actually pretty confident that I'd be able to turn around most suspicion, but really wasn't. I don't know if I've just had a really off game or something but it became pretty evident to me by the end of day one that the suspicion of me probably wasn't going to go away. Flinter read me as scum, bvoigt read me as scum, PETA kept leaning scum, you started reading me as scum, fuduzn kept callying for me to be vigged, and things kept getting worse. Looking ahead and the situation going on, I knew I wouldn't be night killed and if I got into the situation I am in right now, I would be brought here with the people who didn't seem to be giving me a chance or showing any doubts at all, and all I could see was town losing. (it's a similar position I took in kh when I claimed at a bad time and the way I did made me look really suspicious and several people raised suspicion of me because of it. I was night killed anyway because one scum team really thought they were taking out the opposition.)

I understand your point about lynches and town, and I always advise people to fight against their lynch. I just, if you look at it from my point of view, I hope you'll see where I was coming from. Think about it, if I would have been mislynched instead of Flinter, wouldn't this be easier for you right now? Sure the dynamics of end game would probably be different, but still. Add to that having town lose because of me in lylo in another game, and I just didn't want to repeat that. Youre right mafia is a team game, and when I suggested it I believed that removing the question mark of me would help the team overall. It didn't feel good to do it or suggest it, but I couldn't have predicted at the time that you would start being objective about me or fuduzn or Gregory really. Scum bring to lylo who they think they can win against, I wanted them to be forced to bring someone that people weren't already set on.

Pedit: pacman's latest post is laughably bad. The people who've suspected me the most are still alive, with the exception of Flinter. Peta started town reading me the day before he died, and if you think I would have killed him instead of someone else when he's the reason I didn't get lynched that day, you are insane. In fact, several of confirmed town died attacking pacman, so now he's just throwing out whatever random crap he can. The bvoigt distancing stuff is pretty funny actually, notice how he's trying to ignore the evidence I posted on which bvoigt voted both me and Scumhunter on day one to swing momentum to a wagon to save pacman.

If he is town, why doesn't he want to go to night now?

If he is town, why doesn't he suspect fuduzn in the slightest? He'll tell you it's because he believes his claim, duh. But do you just absolutely believe the claim of someone who've you've suspected all game? And, it doesn't match with how he's reacted to the other claims made by his partners.

Also, thank you pacman for not showing one bit of hesitation on fuduzn being town, that just confirms for me that he is the town I already believed him to be.

I have no problem going to night and I never did. I was pretty confident of my vote when the day started, as I had become pretty confident yesterday when gregory was lynched because the evidence speaks for itself, and if we do go to night, pacman is who I will be voting for if I wake up tomorrow. His reactions today have pretty much confirmed it.

[FuDuzn]

Scumhunter, I know you are deadset on no lynching and I have previously said I think we should no lynch. But, it is pretty clear down to an epm or Tammy lynch, whether toDay or Tomorrow. In the interest of not dragging this game out I think we should just lynch, I for one am leaning towards an epm lynch.

Thoughts?

Also Tammy and epm, nothing either of are going to say will change my mind. I think epm mentioned it but it really isn't about what you are saying now, it is what has happened the entire game.

[Tammy]

No, and it shouldn't fuduzn. I stand by my earlier statement that rhetoric walls and arguments in endgame do nothing but distort the truth (doesn't mean I'm not going to point out if someone makes a laughably bad post that distorts the evidence). I think the only thing to talk about in endgame is the evidence or the motivations behind actions that have concerned you.

(I say that knowing I just wrote a wall to scumhunter discussing my motivations, but whether or not it's explained now or in after game discussion, I wanted to explain my pov to scumhunter and why I took the approach I did because he's the one who's had the most problem with the approach I took.)