Mini Normal 2159 | Cinder Block Mafia | Game Over!

[ItalianoVD]

Someone have intent to hammer?

[ItalianoVD]

Or should we discuss more?
VOTE: unvote

[ItalianoVD]

• Did Italiano think I was trying to quicklynch RCE?

Not at all. He was at L-3 and I didn’t want scum to come in and quichammer. This is going on the belief that he is town, which I believe to be true. However I’m wondering if this is uncaring townie or flaking scum. 77 hours without a post???

[WaltertheDunce10]

I know.

[geraintm]

Someone have intent to hammer?

Hammer who?
I have no idea what thr VC is

[WaltertheDunce10]

• Poor RCE.

---

Looking back on italianos claim at classified.
I think it is very odd gamma has no reaction at all like she already knew that. But there is nothing there at all. It is very strange.

What reaction would you expect?

Spoiler:

Why would that prompt you to ask the questions you did, though? Tracking a player lets you see their target, but it doesn't tell you about other players with the same target; what made you reject the possibility that Italiano and someone else both targeted me?

Also, if you did decide that a non-Italiano Friendly Neighbour had targeted me, why push me to confirm that in thread? If they die N3 the information doesn't matter, and if they don't die N3 they'll be able to confirm themself to someone else. (Besides, they presumably confirmed themself to someone N1.)

Because my working theory means the other FN can’t do what you propose.

@Walter where did Italiano announce he full claimed?

Not answering this.
Will answer why you are scum in morning.

Now this is interesting.

I THOUGHT Italiano was odd night FN and Walter, my n2 track target, was even night FN. I get the feeling that isnt correct based off this response, in which case I think Walter’s chance to be scum rises a fair amount.

FYI tracked RCE N1, my thought process has been checking people somewhat visible but without claimed active powers (RCE posted the fake day vig which put him on my radar, and Walter was the neighbor of a PR so I thought maybe he might either be PR or have an action).

So Italiano sent a Friendly Neighbor message to Nosferatu (who confirmed) on N1, and then you tracked WaltertheDunce to Italiano on N2? Then, instead of claiming, Walter voted you? Is this correct?

---

• Did Italiano think I was trying to quicklynch RCE?

VOTE: callforjudgement

What looker no I voted because gamma did not know italiano's claim. Which seemed off to me.
VOTE: unvote

[ItalianoVD]

@geraintm

Votecount 3.3

Gamma Emerald(4)

~ Nosferatu(7), ItalianoVD(19), callforjudgement(36), WaltertheDunce10(15)

RCEnigma(2)

~ Looker(2), geraintm(11)

callforjudgement(1)

~ Gamma Emerald(15)


Not Voting (2): Frogsterking(40), RCEnigma(2)

With 9 alive it takes 5 to eliminate.

Day 3 deadline is in (expired on 2020-10-07 19:26:08)

[ItalianoVD]

Oh he’s actually at 2 votes now. Hmm, I think being at L-2 is better, at least until we discuss these roles and try to understand what’s going on.

VOTE: Gamma

[Gamma Emerald]

Why would a townie even need to know Italiano's schedule? Either he's confirmed or he isn't (in this case, he's confirmed). So at this point, any further Friendly Neighbour actions he has are effectively Fruit Vendor actions (i.e. they're visible to the recipient but no additional information is gained); and seeing as he's confirmed, he can use them as he likes.

Knowing Italiano's schedule would only be useful to eliminate possibilities in which Italiano were scum, but those possibilities have been eliminated anyway.

I was mostly trying to get a sense of whether my thoughts were on track without asking the person I felt would have had the least motive to tell the truth (Walter, if he was scum).

[Gamma Emerald]

So Italiano sent a Friendly Neighbor message to Nosferatu (who confirmed) on N1, and then you tracked WaltertheDunce to Italiano on N2? Then, instead of claiming, Walter voted you? Is this correct?

I tracked Walter to cfj
what are you getting at here?

[Nosferatu]

yea choo choo

[Nosferatu]

I don't see this set up working with a town tracker doesnt mesh well i dont even need to read the thought process

[Looker]

• Poor RCE.

---

@looker

Spoiler:

I tracked someone to you last night. It was not Italiano. As such I’m figuring it was someone else who is also FN.
Italiano, if you’re comfortable, I’d like if you could specify your full role, because I think the puzzle will snap into place with that information.

FYI I’m not revealing anything I wouldn’t reveal at the end of this process anyways.

I believe the you in this is CFJ.

So Italiano sent a Friendly Neighbor message to Nosferatu (who confirmed) on N1, and then Gamma tracked WaltertheDunce to callforjudgement on N2? Is there any reason to rule out a Nosferatu/callforjudgement scumteam?

Spoiler:

• Poor RCE.

---

Looking back on italianos claim at classified.
I think it is very odd gamma has no reaction at all like she already knew that. But there is nothing there at all. It is very strange.

What reaction would you expect?

Now this is interesting.

I THOUGHT Italiano was odd night FN and Walter, my n2 track target, was even night FN. I get the feeling that isnt correct based off this response, in which case I think Walter’s chance to be scum rises a fair amount.

FYI tracked RCE N1, my thought process has been checking people somewhat visible but without claimed active powers (RCE posted the fake day vig which put him on my radar, and Walter was the neighbor of a PR so I thought maybe he might either be PR or have an action).

So Italiano sent a Friendly Neighbor message to Nosferatu (who confirmed) on N1, and then you tracked WaltertheDunce to Italiano on N2? Then, instead of claiming, Walter voted you? Is this correct?

---

• Did Italiano think I was trying to quicklynch RCE?

VOTE: callforjudgement

What looker no I voted because gamma did not know italiano's claim. Which seemed off to me.
VOTE: unvote

So you voted him for not paying attention?

---

• That ItalianoVD thought scum would quickhammer RCE at L-3 but not Gamma Emerald at L-2 is curious to me.

[ItalianoVD]

@Gamma: I know you’ve asked me a few questions and I’ll feel better about answering them if you can answer these for me. And these are not traps or assumptive at all.

- You mentioned that you were checking people somewhat visible but without claimed active powers. Did Not_Mafia who also faked a pr ping you at all. And on Day 2, Taylor was hinting at a pr along with RCEnigma’s second claim. Walter never hinted at anything. I know it’s probably WIFOM, I’m just trying to understand the thought process here.

- Do you feel the suspicion on you has been scum driven? Meaning, you have been getting scumread for a good part of the game and I would have to look back to see where it started, but do you feel your suspicion/scumreads are legitimate/fair or illegitimate/unfair?

[ItalianoVD]

• That ItalianoVD thought scum would quickhammer RCE at L-3 but not Gamma Emerald at L-2 is curious to me.

Oh yeah makes sense. Well I think RCEnigma is town and Gamma is scum at the moment so I don’t/didn’t think Gamma would be quickhammered.

I’m trying to sort this tracker thing right now.

[callforjudgement]

I don't see this set up working with a town tracker doesnt mesh well i dont even need to read the thought process

I agree with this. Just based on known roles, the setup is already in the region where scum power would be needed to balance it (even with the Neighbour pair to cause red herrings for the PT Cop, PT Cop + 2 Friendly Neighbours would be townsided against 3 Goons). Adding a town Tracker on that doesn't make much sense from a balance point of view; there are no bad interactions with the other town roles (other than potentially tracking a town power role who coincidentally targeted a kill, but this is unlikely with a PT Cop because there's not much target overlap, and a falsely accused Friendly Neighbour has no issue defending themself), so it would just end up making the setup even harder to balance. This factor alone makes me think that it's highly likely that it's Gamma (barring ridiculousness like a 9:4 setup, but that seems unlikely unless there are a lot more power role claims).

However, Gamma's actions today, even before the Tracker claim, were enough to reverse my earlier townread on him; the apparent motivations for his actions don't match those that a townie would have at all. If you suspect that Walter is a Friendly Neighbour, even with modifiers, why go to all that trouble to confirm it (including threatening me after I made it clear that your line of investigation was a bad idea, and leaking a lot of information to what would be your scum opponents if you were town)? The only way that the information could have a chance of being lost would be if I got nightkilled (which doesn't seem very likely when I wasn't receiving many townreads at the time), and even then that would mean Italiano would be alive, and would be able to clarify Walter's night actions (which Walter would have claimed to Italiano, because Italiano is confirmed town). I didn't think there could be a plausible explanation, and when Gamma finally produced one, it indeed wasn't plausible (and the stated night reasoning looks like scum reasoning rather than town reasoning).

(I also think "tracking Walter to me" wouldn't be sufficient evidence to prompt a typical player into suspecting that a setup contains a duplicate role. So I had a suspicion that Gamma has additional information from somewhere, either from fakeclaiming Rolecop as Tracker or via a second power role on the scumteam. This argument is much weaker than the other two, though.)

So in summary, my read is that Gamma is scum by nightplay/setup balance considerations, and also, independently of that, scum by dayplay considerations. Either would be strong enough to make me vote there today; both together is enough that I would be surprised (and vaguely horrified) if Gamma ends up flipping town.

[WaltertheDunce10]

Sums it up perfectly

[ItalianoVD]

Looker over here throwing a wrench into everything. Nosferatu/callforjudgment scumteam. What on earth?

[ItalianoVD]

Could the scum have more power roles than just goons? Like roleblocker or cop? Tracker would then be balanced? Yes? No?

[callforjudgement]

They have to have more powerful roles than just goons, at this point.

It's possible for them to have enough power to balance a Tracker in addition to the known roles (e.g. they could have a Ninja), but I don't see why a moderator would put that in a setup. Normally setup design starts with thinking up the idea behind the setup (e.g. two Friendly Neighbours), then you work out what needs to go around that (you need extra power but not that much, adding in some Neighbours so that a PT Cop gets false positives gives the setup a bit of a theme), then you work out what's needed to counterbalance it (in this case, some way for scum to find and/or screw with the power roles). Adding in a town Tracker seems like something that a setup designer would be unlikely to think of, because now you have extra confirmations where you really don't need it, and would need to add something to the scum side specifically to counter it. Then, once you do that, the game becomes really swingy because the setup has way too much PoE ability for town in the lategame, so you end up with a setup where scum have to win quickly or risk getting steamrolled.

I personally wouldn't allow anything like that when reviewing a setup. However, I wasn't the setup reviewer here, and at least mastina is rather more permissive of setups than I am (I don't know Nexus's or Datisi's mod/reviewer meta). So it's possible, but the odds seem rather against it.

[ItalianoVD]

Okay, makes sense. Thanks for that.

[ItalianoVD]

I think I may have been blocked unless I can be confirmed. If not then roleblocker is there.

[Gamma Emerald]

@Gamma: I know you’ve asked me a few questions and I’ll feel better about answering them if you can answer these for me. And these are not traps or assumptive at all.

- You mentioned that you were checking people somewhat visible but without claimed active powers. Did Not_Mafia who also faked a pr ping you at all. And on Day 2, Taylor was hinting at a pr along with RCEnigma’s second claim. Walter never hinted at anything. I know it’s probably WIFOM, I’m just trying to understand the thought process here.

- Do you feel the suspicion on you has been scum driven? Meaning, you have been getting scumread for a good part of the game and I would have to look back to see where it started, but do you feel your suspicion/scumreads are legitimate/fair or illegitimate/unfair?

NM's claim was prompted by Nosferatu's post asking for it, so it was less worth my time. I chose Walter n2 because I thought the second neighbor might have a PR or be scum, my expectation was initially actual that no action should be more indicative of scum because of that original supposition. I understand my second action is a little weird, but I already mentioned Among Us affecting my thought process and I think that's where the chief impact is. In that game I tend to like to follow up on leads that are already existent.

[Gamma Emerald]

I entirely ignored the second question oops
I haven't paid attention to who has been pushing me, I recall frogster doing so d1/d2, as well as RCE during d1 at least, beyond that I don't really have a good head on that, and I have an even worse concept of whose pushes on me look good or bad

[Gamma Emerald]

Also wrt the dual role conclusion, I just think it would be weird for there to be 2 FNs, one inside the hood and one outside, as well as Walter being PR
so like if things are as they seem based on what's been posted so far, I'm inclined to SR Walter given it's extremely weird for the setup to be

neighbor PR
neighbor FN
non neighbor FN
PT cop
tracker
5 other town

vs goon and 2 undetermined scum

The only way that checks out imo is, tbqh, a 4 scum setup, in which case I'm gonna take a hard look at who first proposed that because it likely was some massive TMI