Open 466: Nomination Mafia - Town Wins!

[Toroid]

I'm climbing Mt.Ida in a blizzard, in the dark in a few hours. If I'm not back in 48 hours to post, I am dead or in the hospital (seriously). I'd snap a picture once I get to the top but it would be pitch black.

[Thor665]

Turkey?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Can you explain to me the strategy of early wagons?

For scum or what

[Thor665]

For both if needed, but I'm asking about town specifically.
Scum only does them to look town.

[Fujiko]

New rule, effective immediately: dying in real life mid-game is strictly forbidden.

Vote Count 2.4

Toroid: 3 (Rainbowdash, Devourer359, Thor665)
Thor665: 1 (Top12Gun)
Rainbowdash: 0

Not voting: 2 (Toroid, orcinus_theoriginal)

Reminder: only votes on Thor665, Rainbowdash, and Toroid are valid.

4 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2012-12-11 22:00:00)

[orcinus_theoriginal]

That's not actually correct. Scum does stuff to lynch town. Town does stuff to lynch scum. I think we see a fundamental difference here.

So obviously the answer here would be that scum builds quick wagon to do a quick and easy lynch, and we all know that quick day 1s never benefit town.

Early wagons are built by town on a scummy case, but that wagon should not turn into a quick lynch, which I do not believe is ever beneficial to town.

And on that note, back to

VOTE: Rainbowdash

and I believe you should too.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Replying to one of Rainbowdash's earlier points on her hammer, you were the single swing vote. While I don't believe that the ace wagon was completely town, anyone who hammered Thor would have been marked as certain scum. I don't think that Thor was particularly in danger.

[Top12Gun]

You cant claim this at all from a logical standpoint. Buck town or scum, you cant claim this and expect to ever be taken half seriously. I hammered ONLY because of policy and what it ment if he was scum case wise. You are fishing for reasons not to vote me. Bring. It. On. Its me and Toroid. Bring it on. If I get lynched today its better than Thor getting lynched because Thor is town, then you get lynched, and then he gets to mop up NU replacement and if its still going has a coinflip.

What about my argument ISN'T logical?? I can see why you voted him: he was randomly posting, and contradicting himself all over the place, either terribad scum or noob town, so you voted him on policy. And seeing that's illogical?? If this were on any player who HADN'T just failed all over the place, I would be voting you like a mother. I would have played it out a few more days just to get some more info, but nonetheless, there wasn't as much scumminess in that as if you had hammered on, say, Devourer or someone else. So either you voted him for those reasons, in which case I was correct in not voting you, or you voted him because you're scum jumping on an easy inno kill. If you were town, you would understand my point completely because what I just described was entirely correct. This contradiction has me believing you're complete scum, so... UNVOTE: Thor665, VOTE: Rainbowdash.

Bite the bit and just go for the vote instead of dancing around and waiting to see what Toroid does to pick your poision. You are avoiding conflict again because you arent sure the safer route.

I don't give a crap what Toroid does, ATM. Right now, he's barely on my radar, just seeming uber-cautious town... Anyone else get this feeling?? That he's town but just very unsure??

Oooh.... so you put "but I think TAOS is also scummy" in the tail end of a quote wall. Thats NOT challenging somepony or anything like that. If anything it can be aruged to be WORSE than what you did because you open the doors for hammering town if things go fast. Bet if I got the Thor wagon to start moving your direction pretty quickly you would have found TAOS as scummier.

Oh, god. You're truly full of crap. First, "HE KUMPLEETLY IGNORED TAOS!!! LYNCH NOW!!" Now, when I point out that I DID find Ace scummy and said so, "ITS NOT ENUFF!!! LYNCH HIM." This is BS and you frickin know it.

Also really? Did you call me scum for saying "Thor is town" instead of "I think Thor is town but am not a cop so while I see him as almost for sure town he is not confirmed town". Grasp at straws more.

Because it's completely normal for town to be dead certain of another's evidence on D1 (in a game without cop I think, correct me if I'm wrong). If I DIDN'T call that scummy, I should be punished in a cruel and unusual way.

And vote me. Lets go. Really you are getting lynched tomorrow because me getting lynched should be the nail in your coffin, Thor flipping town lets me drive it in myself tomorrow, and Toroid flipping anything and you are dead in the water. Question is who are you going to try and bring down? I mean, obviously not Toroid because if he dies you HAVE to get me or Thor mislynched tomorrow even if Toroid is town... so lets do it.

I'm curious. How does Toroid flipping either way make me scum??? This craplogic actually intrigues me, even though it's obvious BS. And were I scum, I'd probably go for Devourer or Orcinus, since they seem the most pro-town...

I retract that comment about focusing solely on taos. A read of your posts in isolation tells me that I'm wrong.

However, I would still say that the ISO tells us that you pushed hard for TAOS. Probably too hard given your stance on VIs.

Thor seems to be a rather perceptive player, regardless of whether he's scum like I think, so it piqued my suspicion both before and after the Ace town-flip that he didn't in the least state the possibility that Ace could be fail town, since he seems like the kind of person who would. Not an accusation or anything, but it made me wonder...

[Top12Gun]

EBWOP: Apparently orcinus and Thor posted while I was in the process of replying, and orc voted Rainbow as well. My vote places her at L-2, correct??

[Thor665]

Early wagons are built by town on a scummy case, but that wagon should not turn into a quick lynch, which I do not believe is ever beneficial to town.

So we agree that me pushing a wagon aggressively at game start, and pushing hard, is not intrinsically a scummy act.
So what's your beef with it?

Also, why is Rainbow the scummiest? For the quicklynch?
I dunno, are you claiming it's a double bluff - Rainbow did something drastically derpy on the presumption we would call her town because only dumb scum would do that? I tend to believe that no scum would have the casabas to do that move - and then to also toss herself into the lynch pool? Meh. I guess I could see it as a bluff, and then a toss into lynch pool over a bluff, and then hard buddying me...but her scumhunt on T12 looks highly legit and the conclusions make sense to me.

What am I missing?

Thor seems to be a rather perceptive player, regardless of whether he's scum like I think, so it piqued my suspicion both before and after the Ace town-flip that he didn't in the least state the possibility that Ace could be fail town, since he seems like the kind of person who would. Not an accusation or anything, but it made me wonder...

I specifically called this out, so...whut?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

My beef is with the fact that the wagon was being pushed on a VI, who you said you tend to give the benefit of the doubt.

Yeah, I am calling her out for the quicklynch.

Rainbow being in the lynch pool and then NOBODY pressuring her tells me that Rainbow put herself in the lynchpool to be self-cleared

. As I've stated before (removed some things to reflect my thoughts now, italics for emphasis)

Because it's hasty, it doesn't use or give town any information, and because I don't see how you can arrive at the conclusion that someone is scum from something like 2 pages with such certainty that you are willing to lynch the guy.

Secondly, the hammer stunk, because I don't like speed lynches. Thirdly,

putting rainbowdash up on the chopping block has the curious effect of clearing him

, since we're all thinking "Oh yeah, scum wouldn't put themselves up for lynch after hammering town".

Rainbow's insistence that "it's not possible to vote for scum today" sounds like scum who put herself up on the block to clear herself of a scummy act (hammering TAOS page 4).

The town read on Thor is disconcerting just because how convinced Rainbow is.

I don't know about T12. While he is just bad, he's still reading noob town over noob scum to me. Also,

Have you considered a rainbowdash/T12 scum connection? Just a thought.

[Fujiko]

Vote Count 2.5

Toroid: 3 (Rainbowdash, Devourer359, Thor665)
Rainbowdash: 2 (orcinus_theoriginal, Top12Gun)
Thor665: 0

Not voting: 1 (Toroid)

Reminder: only votes on Thor665, Rainbowdash, and Toroid are valid.

4 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2012-12-11 22:00:00)

[Toroid]

Yeah, it is.

UNVOTE:

I’d like Toroid to tell me what his views on his partners on the chopping block are, and whether or not he is fine with being lynched today. Devourer should answer my question.

I had partners? Yes I sheeped Thor on page... three? but since then I've been distancing myself. I'm not just sure about him being town.
RainbowDash, How does me flipping anything change your opinion on Top12Gun? I don't understand this either? Did you make a mistake and put my name in when you intended to use someone elses?
The very fact that Thor isn't being voted for... kinda makes me suspicious.
Well then, let us see where this goes!

Vote: RainbowDash

Oh, and the climb went great!.

[Toroid]

Unvote

[Thor665]

My beef is with the fact that the wagon was being pushed on a VI, who you said you tend to give the benefit of the doubt.

Did I say I didn't push wagons on them? There's a difference between being forgiving towards VI behavior and deciding to push a VI wagon at the start of Day 1. If I was claiming to never push VI behavior...then I'd be at a massive disadvantage in a lot of games, scum and town. If you disagree then I suppose I'll cede the point, but I think you're being oddly pedantic about this.

Rainbow being in the lynch pool and then NOBODY pressuring her tells me that Rainbow put herself in the lynchpool to be self-cleared

.

It's worth a push. I'm not sure scum Rainbow would bother putting me into the pool and then pushing me as town that hard. Sorta defeats the purpose, yeah?

Have you considered a rainbowdash/T12 scum connection? Just a thought.

Doesn't make a lot of sense considering how hard Rainbow is pushing T12 scum today - wouldn't that be kind of awkward to back away from tomorrow? Especially with me there and alive, which is clearly Rainbow's hope.

[Thor665]

I'd even go so far as to say a Rainbow or T12 scum flip would auto clear the other.

[Rainbowdash]

I had partners? Yes I sheeped Thor on page... three? but since then I've been distancing myself. I'm not just sure about him being town.

... that doesnt sound like anything town would ever say.

"Im distancing myself from Thor".... I just... what? I really dont get how you distance as town, or why you do that, or how... again.

RainbowDash, How does me flipping anything change your opinion on Top12Gun? I don't understand this either? Did you make a mistake and put my name in when you intended to use someone elses?

I really dont think there is a situation where T12 doesnt die tomorrow actually. I die and he is slated for death, you die and he his, Thor dies and he is. The only way I can possibly see T12 NOT being lynched is if Thor not only somehow gets lynched but also is actually scum. Neither of those are happening though so hey, T12 is in all likelyhood tomorrows lynch. If you are scum it just makes it all that much easier to get him lynch.

The very fact that Thor isn't being voted for... kinda makes me suspicious.
Well then, let us see where this goes!

Vote: RainbowDash

Wow... you are able to waffle with only two possible votes you CAN make. Really you actually MIGHT be T12s partner with this post of yours. Thor is suspicious... but guess where you end up for ????? reasons.

Anypony else realize that T12 just voted me essentially for "called me stupid"? Also yes, im actually KNOWN for hardcore defending a player on a gut feeling or single tell day one, ive stopped town lynches quite a few times. Its what I do because my track record of reading town as town is rediculously good, in most games thats how I find scum, working backwards and then going through and putting a case together once I get about half the game who I refuse to lynch.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Are you serious claiming Toroid is scum for a self-preservation vote? Because that's really bad.

[Thor665]

Could you point that out, I'm not seeing it?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Sorry. Reading 62 pages and stressing out about exams has turned my brain into mush.

Thor should be voting Rainbow right now because she makes a better lynch target than toroid. I don't see scum toroid putting himself up there.

Sheeping you means that you're unlikely to vote for her, and thus Toroid was the planned scum lynch.

Any questions?

[Thor665]

How do you see T12's current vote move as newb town and not newb scum?

[Toroid]

Re-reading this thread, I'm more comfortable risking the loss of RainbowDash.
If only because of derpy hooves logic.
If only because "lynch all ponies".
If only because you called my vote waffle. That's my line.

Really you actually MIGHT be T12s partner

Vote: RainbowDash

[orcinus_theoriginal]

How do you see T12's current vote move as newb town and not newb scum?

Scum T12 would have gone after Toroid by this point

[Thor665]

Allow me to spell out the T12 scum line as I grok it.
Sell me that I'm wrong and I'll hammer Rainbow for you for lulz;

1. T12 starts the day voting me with no attention paid to the rest of the game.
2. Rainbow calls out T12 and votes Toroid
3. With no real gain to either the Thor or Toroid wagons T12 reaffirms that he dislikes Thor - oh how awful Thor is. Has no comments about Rainbow.
4. You show up and dig into Rainbow, and attack her - Toroid wagon goes nowhere, Thor wagon is totally dead.
5. T12 (who I think is still calling me scum, I'm not sure) shows up and votes Rainbow for no clear reason.

Okay, so, basically scum T12 never really had a need or a point where the Toroid shift would make sense. He also hopped off me with barely a murmer (his super top suspect) and is suddenly all about Rainbow being dead. WOuldn't *that* be the scum T12 hop, and that would make Rainbow town and Toroid more likely scum?

As a theoretical - Toroid is scum who was put in as an easy "clear" (because, as T12 says, he would have put a buddy in) T12 never discusses Toroid, and doesn't even mention Rainbow's Toroid push as a reason to get Rainbow dead. Goal was to have Toroid just be there relatively quiet while either T12 tunneld Thor into lynch or town lynched Rainbow for 'lulz, speedhammah!'

Thoughts?

[Fujiko]

Vote Count 2.6

Toroid: 3 (Rainbowdash, Devourer359, Thor665)
Rainbowdash: 3 (orcinus_theoriginal, Top12Gun, Toroid)
Thor665: 0

Not voting: 0

Reminder: only votes on Thor665, Rainbowdash, and Toroid are valid.

4 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2012-12-11 22:00:00)