Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[borkjerfkin]

And I townread [wgeurts] that game because I assumed he was being newbtown going by his meta.

Still feel like this is a scumslip and I wish other people would take their blinders off.

If

1) you townread him that game because you assumed he was newbtown going by his meta
and
2) that game happened

after

this one for all intents and purposes with you reading wgeurts

Then why didn't you treat this game like you

later

treated that one if you were willing to trust his meta there? You had no instance of him flipping scum in the latter game to inform this game. Conversely, you had no reason NOT to be just as suspicious of him in that game as you were in this game if you're just naturally suspicious like that, because he hadn't flipped here. Your retroactive justification doesn't even make any sense for you to believe to be true (even if it weren't already utterly ridiculous).

Your actions suggest that what is actually different between the two games is your alignment and the amount of information available to you. If you

knew

he was town in this game the whole time, and, just as germane, the other game was actually your first attempt to legitimately read him (as your reference to the second game without any hint of being wary about your read in this game would indicate), then your actions in the other game

do

make sense.

They also suggest you're lying about what actually happened in this game. You seriously using the other game as retroactive justification because he happened to flip scum there, a fact you had no idea about at the time since you were town there, in a situation that is markedly different from this one even just going by my 30 second smell test, is

insane

, and I think you screwed up, forgot the timing, and are trying to cover for yourself.

[Mathdino]

Your argument is a bit difficult to respond to due to the structure, but I'll do what I can. Actually, I'll summarise a history of me and wgeurts:

1. This game happens, the dude pretends to be newbtown as a reaction test and then tries to point out weak links and then asks for a claim.
2. Not_Mafia points out that if wgeurts is pretending to be newbtown, he's extending that meta to the entire site, which is implausible. So I stop being suspicious of him; I'd never looked at his meta before this point.
3. I later townread wgeurts solely due to interaction with Victor; this interaction is stronger than the meta argument to prove he's town.
4. Meanwhile, in the other game, I excuse all his actions as newbtown because that's what I know of his meta, which was not only present here but also in like 3 games that I read containing him. He's a bit out of touch when it comes to L-1, hammer, and claiming conventions. There was a PokerFace game that illustrated this IIRC.
5. wgeurts flips scum in the other game and I realise that the whole newbtown pushing for claims like hell thing was all a ruse, and that he is in fact capable of using his meta to his advantage to rolefish.
6. wgeurts gets modkilled here. Can't remember which of 5/6 happened first, but whatever. By this point I was ignoring him in favour of Const/Riddle.
7. You claim that my initial reasons for suspecting wgeurts were BS and I shouldn't have suspected him for that.
8. I use Stack The Deck to show that no, it wasn't BS, because people like wgeurts DO use the guise of newbtown to rolefish, so it's ludicrous to say that I should have just ignored that.

The crux of the matter is you're saying I shouldn't have suspected wgeurts for that, and I'm saying yes, I really should have, suspecting him was the right thing to do in that situation.

[borkjerfkin]

You're the one that voted Wisdom for trying to draw associatives.

I can't emphasize how different this situation is than the wgeurts one and it's so obvious.

Wisdom was straight up saying "I am aware that these two players have an odd relationship and I do not think they are scumbuddies". I got Wisdom for this because in this setup, thinking this should make town clam up and wonder about their being masons.

wgeurts wasn't saying anything like that at all. He was saying pretty much the opposite of that. If he thought whoever he was calling scumbuddies were actually masons together he showed no evidence of it in that post - that is entirely an inference that Mathdino made about Wguerts straight up lying about what he was getting at, rather than the subtle cognitive dissonance I pointed out with Wisdom.

[borkjerfkin]

It's because he's talking about claiming and information in a "I'm scum and I want moar info" type way.

That's just wgeurts.

He needs to work on not being so claimhappy but that's not a scumtell for him.

Unless you saw something else. ISO him and see what you find?

This was your attitude toward Wgeurts in the other game and it is entirely reasonable; I'd expect no less here.

[Mathdino]

Because that game happened after I was aware of his meta. I didn't want to make the same mistake I did here, of suspecting him for making dumb moves.
Guess what? I was wrong in that game. I should have suspected him as the others did instead of making excuses for him.

You've never answered me on this question and I really do want to know this: Who would you have had me vote back then? A lurker? Someone on V/LA? Wisdom, one of the most active players before he'd done anything off?

wgeurts was the scummiest person at the time. I'd make that vote again if I were to play this again. And you'll note that multiple other people pretty much used the exact same mason-fishing argument when it came to suspecting him.

[borkjerfkin]

You've never answered me on this question and I really do want to know this: Who would you have had me vote back then? A lurker? Someone on V/LA? Wisdom, one of the most active players before he'd done anything off?

I don't think answering this question is going to advance the gamestate because the answer is only relevant if you're town and as such I am ignoring it.

[Mathdino]

Brother, you're slamming me for having suspicions that were shared by a whole lot of people that were built on very legitimate reasons. If you were there, would you really have defended what wgeurts was doing?

It's a rhetorical question that you choose to not answer in favour of tunneling, essentially.

[borkjerfkin]

I didn't want to make the same mistake I did here

And you knew you were making a mistake here how exactly?
Why not meta him in this game (you even bring up the dichotomy between newb-town and scum faking that, seems like a good time to meta)

[borkjerfkin]

It's a rhetorical question that you choose to not answer in favour of tunneling, essentially.

It's a rhetorical question with the answer being "vote the person that makes it obvious to me what your alignment is" and as such isn't very useful as an after the fact exercise.

[borkjerfkin]

Brother, you're slamming me for having suspicions that were shared by a whole lot of people that were built on very legitimate reasons. If you were there, would you really have defended what wgeurts was doing?

I remember silverwolf and TTH both denouncing it
BMWS reason for voting him had nothing to do with that
Newbie only supported it after 182 happened which was way after you voted and is a response I feel you goaded him into.

[Mathdino]

See #3. wgeurts was practically confirmed town to me after searching through Victor's meta and his interactions with wgeurts. Furthermore, I'd already PoE'd wgeurts off the table.

I didn't meta him because once again, the Slayer Gambit at the beginning of the game proved he was capable of pretending to be town.
Why do you find it so odd that I didn't meta wgeurts, when I practically meta'd half the rest of the playerlist? Who I choose to meta is pretty much determined by the surety of my reads (or when I want to draw associatives).

Look bork, you of all the people in this game need to be considering 2nd options and expanding on this since we're not going to have your thoughts tomorrow if we lynch wrong. That's cool, I'm scum. Great. So who do we lynch if I flip town? Have you actually considered my Newbie case?

Edit: A question that you're throwing out as a result of tunneling. Who would town-me, reasonable-me, me-that-uses-perfect-logic vote?
Edit2: Right. I goaded him into asking me if I was a mason. Makes sense.

[borkjerfkin]

Edit: A question that you're throwing out as a result of tunneling. Who would town-me, reasonable-me, me-that-uses-perfect-logic vote?

Dude I don't care. It's not pertinent. TTH and Silverwolf thought what you said was bollocks and they were town so who cares.

[borkjerfkin]

Edit2: Right. I goaded him into asking me if I was a mason. Makes sense.

Actually, your 'you're mason fishing aren't you?' question is ironically more rolefishy than what you were accusing him of doing, because his answer (or tone of answer) may have varied depending on if he was one or not

[borkjerfkin]

Who I choose to meta is pretty much determined by the surety of my reads

"Capable of pretending to be town" sounds like a real slam dunk read in either direction, yeah.

[borkjerfkin]

Why do you find it so odd that I didn't meta wgeurts

Cause you did in the later game?

[Mathdino]

k. so.
Case 1: I'm town and tunneling wgeurts. I don't expect wgeurts to say 'yes' to the mason-fishing question (it was rhetorical) because I think he's scum and lying.
Case 2: I'm scum and jumping on wgeurts. I don't expect wgeurts to say 'yes' to the mason-fishing question because why would town try to do that?
It was a rhetorical question that he was going to answer 'no' to either way.

If someone does something stupid and then claims that the right response to their reaction test was to call them newbtown, I'm going to expect them to be a lot more competent. So yes, if they do or say something with scum motivation that looks newbtown, I'm going to assume they're faking it. Again.

Edit: I meta'd him after NM pointed out his meta. This changed my perception of wgeurts in both games.

[borkjerfkin]

Have you actually considered my Newbie case?

I don't see anything that you'd mentioned that you're able to quantify how more likely it is coming from scum than town. Just "here is X, and here is a narrative that describes why scum might have done X". That isn't enough. Why wouldn't / is it not likely that town would have done X?

The whole thing about "Newbie voted Wisdom because she knew Wisdom was scum since Wisdom wasn't actually scummy D1" made me throw up in my mouth a little. That is a burden of proof that you haven't even come close to meeting.

[borkjerfkin]

k. so.
Case 1: I'm town and tunneling wgeurts. I don't expect wgeurts to say 'yes' to the mason-fishing question (it was rhetorical) because I think he's scum and lying.
Case 2: I'm scum and jumping on wgeurts. I don't expect wgeurts to say 'yes' to the mason-fishing question because why would town try to do that?
It was a rhetorical question that he was going to answer 'no' to either way.

Well duh, but I don't expect a one word response. They'll say 'no', but it's how they say no (flippant?/alarmed?/guarded?) that can give a tell. Kinda like how mafia works in general.

Need to sleep. This is clogging the thread anyway.

[Mathdino]

Yet I've seen a lot from BMWS and acryon that would be more likely coming from town than scum, and in fact is inconsistent with them being scum.

I also don't think you've mentioned anything about me either that would be more likely to come from scum than town. Wrongness is not a scumtell. Being on town wagons is not a scumtell. It's equally likely from both alignments.

Look, we're all stretching things here because we expected scum to be in Constantine/Riddleton. But at least be honest about it, because for the most part all 5 of us were townreading each other before the modkills.
I'll be honest. Newbie's behaviour was fishy to me up until you 'confirming' her as town. BMWS and acryon were always townreads.
Yet on your side, you were townreading me in full before this happened and you PoE'd me as scum. Why was this wgeurts voting stuff not apparent to you before?
Probably because objectively looking at this game without PoE, I'm town.

Edit: Their response is a nulltell. Some people are calm, some are emotional. I don't do reaction tests.

[borkjerfkin]

That is a burden of proof that you haven't even come close to meeting.

Maybe more pertinent is that it relies on your subjective interpretation of Wisdom's scumminess that you're basically saying is objectively correct.
Or was TTH tunneling the shit out of Wisdom D1 also scum motivated? Oh it wasn't? Yeah.

Anyway sleep for realizes now.

[Mathdino]

Newbie was the first person to write a case and provide a ton of reasons on why Wisdom was scum. TTH's vote was explicitly a gutread. Her later tunneling didn't come until after Newbie.
Scum don't just gutread each other as scum, AFAIK.

[reinoe]

MOD STUFF

Here's a random picture!!!

VOTE COUNT!!!!

borkjerkfin-
Newbie-
Mathdino-borkjerfkin (L-2)
blindmewithscience-Newbie (L-2)
acryon-

not voting- blindmewithscience, Mathdino, acryon


With 5 Alive it's 3 to lynch.

Day ends in (expired on 2014-11-23 07:00:00)


Alcohol+Cards Against Humanity=Lot's of frightened senior citizens! Brunch is going swimmingly!

[borkjerfkin]

Newbie was the first person to write a case and provide a ton of reasons on why Wisdom was scum. TTH's vote was explicitly a gutread. Her later tunneling didn't come until after Newbie.

So this isn't TTH saying that Newbie is giving the exact same argument she was?

Well, this sounds familiar. I wonder where I heard it before...
Just in case anyone's interested, this general trend of posting continues right up to the last few Wisdom posts, especially the one categorizing wgeurt's self-vote as some kind of grey-area "overreaction." There's a lot of wishy-washy-ness (I know that's not a word, but it's too late at night for me to care) on wgeurts when he's the clear favorite wagon today. I think he's not wanting to close off the possibility of joining the wagon but at the same time he doesn't want to look overeager.

Your "Wisdom wasn't scummy and Newbie is scummy for suspecting him" point is scummy by itself, but with this it's both scummy AND factually inaccurate.

(inb4 you change the argument to "Newbie is scum for parroting TTH")

[borkjerfkin]

Uh, not sure if you caught this, but I think about 4 people asked him to give his reads and explain who he thought was scum... What, did you expect him to FoS you and Victor with a tr-tr-trembling...voice?

I don't like this. I see nothing between your last post 256and the above that would tip your read on wgeurts from suspicious to lynchworthy.

The pressure getting to you, Wisdom? 2 people suspect you for wishiwashiness and you cave in and hop on the wagon?
I still think wgeurts is scum. But regardless of his alignment, I'm seeing some merit in

FoSing: Wisdom

.

mod edit: fixed link.

So for what values of D1 is this post ok but newbie is scummy for suspecting Wisdom?

or did the 30 posts in between 237 and 267 just totes flip the gamestate on its head?

[borkjerfkin]

Guys i don't know what else to do here.
Mathdino's scum. there are inconsistencies all over his iso.

What else do you guys want?
Newbie why are you utterly ignoring this exchange?