Tarot uPick II - GAME OVER

[Kamigami]

On N1, we were Air, WoF was Water. Sane cop went through just fine.

[Kamigami]

I hope that wasn't nacho, because if it is, you've stopped making sense.

That we have element based neighborhoods alone is reason for elements to exist. If ferry decided to piggy back one or two roles on the element mechanic, then she could do that too. To think that, in a non-bastard game, our explicitly Sane cop shot could be Insane due to mechanics outside of our knowledge is nonsense.

Why do you think only a subset of the players got warnings about uncertain behavior in their actions? Probably because only a subset of players are affected by it.

This whole discussion is almost certainly pointless.

[Kamigami]

Some things are valuable to keep in neighborhoods, some things aren't.

If you want to be subtle about something, hoods are a great place to do it, since it reduces exposure to the entire scumteam, and communication of hood activity amongst the scumteam will be imperfect.

Hoods are also a great place for low-impact discussion, or cooperation posts with fellow townreads.

It's absolutely correct to out some things that are discussed in the neighborhood, especially if they concern suspicious players.

[Kamigami]

Now, I have role based reasons (some through unique knowledge, others through high-confidence speculation) to believe 8 players other than myself are town, leaving 7. There's probably an error or a GF-like role in the 8, or else the game is too easily solved, but of the 7, the only players I don't have play-based reason to believe them to be town are pisskop, Bacde, and ika.

[Kamigami]

I agree, I assume an error in role-based interaction and possibly one or two semi-townreads.

[Kamigami]

klingon, PN, Fluff.

[Kamigami]

echo too.

[Kamigami]

Ok, I think they're town too.

[Kamigami]

Earth and Water are friendly and passive
Earth and Fire strengthen each other but are neutral
Earth and Air are enemies; they weaken each other
Water and Earth are friendly and passive
Water and Air strengthen each other but are neutral
Water and Fire are enemies; they weaken each other
Fire and Air are friendly and active
Fire and Earth strengthen each other but are neutral
Fire and Water are enemies; they weaken each other
Air and Fire are friendly and active
Air and Water strengthen each other but are neutral
Air and Earth are enemies; they weaken each other

Same element always succeeds. "Enemy" element always fails.
"Strengthening" elements succeed on odd nights.
"Friendly" elements succeed on even nights.

No evidence that this applies to people who are not warned of element interactions.

[Kamigami]

D1 when Kamigami did an accurate description... well rather vague, but still a description of my role, and said that it was town (and i know im town).

To be clear, I speculated that our cop shot being explicitly labeled "Sane" implies that insane cop shots may exist, which I speculated to most likely appear as a cop of questionable sanity.

The role is obviously town, but of course we don't have anything saying "hi guys, questionable sanity cop is townzors" in our role.

[Kamigami]

I don't really see how it got more annoying. To my mind, little has changed except a bit of additional clarity.

Do you have any opinions on the best way to go forward given that all the best lynches are being deliberately uncooperative?

[Kamigami]

You could push me - oh wait you have no case.

What do you think is the best case that anyone has presented for a player other than yourself being scum?

[Kamigami]

What are your scumreads that are above-average in accuracy?

[Kamigami]

And that doesn't tell me which player you think there's a better case on.

[Kamigami]

VOTE: pisskop

[Kamigami]

I believe the claim.

[Kamigami]

Why are you voting him then

Is Town ascetic-izer a strong role? No. It's a terrible role, that, if compulsive, could even be considered negative utility.

So why do you put an elemental restriction on it?

On the other hand, it's a very powerful scum role. It eliminates the need for a ninja, and prevents suspicious scum from getting copped.

It especially makes sense if there are no other Water element scum.

[Kamigami]

The other reason is that, if town, he will never die.

[Kamigami]

Then why would I claim it doesnt stop kill?

pedit: @wof

There are too many claimed doctors.

[Kamigami]

I already had plenty of reason for that.

Why wouldn't you claim? You clearly believed that suspicion on you would decline.

[Kamigami]

Whatever. Talking sense into you is like talking to a wall.

I've tried to engage you several times both here and in the neighborhood. You've ignored everything I've asked, mostly by responding in complete non-sequiturs.

[Kamigami]

It's sad that you still don't get it, regardless of your alignment.

In any case, as I've said in the hood, you have to die and you'll only die by rope.

[Kamigami]

I'm willing to try again, pisskop, though you have to die regardless.

Why are you town, who is scum, and why are they scum?

[Kamigami]

As a hint, the correct answer to part A is not "The cases on me are bad, and thus I am town," nor is it "meta."

[Kamigami]

Kagami, why did Zelink die N1?

Why did I die N2?

I thought the N1 kill would be in {zmm, you, Luna, or us} and probably not luna because of fear of protection. I would assume he died for reputation and towncred garnered from the brantz lynch, while also being fairly unlikely to receive protection.

Even though you were easily the best protection target N2, they were willing to take that risk. I think your death was more likely for reads and influence.

Can't post much right now.

[Kamigami]

She has pisskop as the pinacle of towniness for some... reason... and is attacking anyone scumreading him

sounds more like a wk than buddy defense

Her reasoning seems based on a belief that her elemental-interaction mechanic is town-indicative, and that pisskop wouldn't out information as scum. The latter point leads to luna's "slip" line of thought, which I don't agree with.

The way she's gone about the defense isn't really valid, but it doesn't look like a WK.

[Kamigami]

I think it's just silliness, wis.

[Kamigami]

i think she's just scum. Just read HU2, it's the same shit as there

What game is that? I don't see anything like it under her topics.

[Kamigami]

There's probably some additional complexity to it.

The Tower is Fire/Water element by itself. I would have thought anen and brantz would start as Fire + Water, but apparently Ferry simplified it to just fire if anen later gained his water element.

If that's correct, though, it doesn't make since that we gained water N1 because our second card is the Tower, we should have gained a Fire element. Our third card is even Fire.

[Kamigami]

Kagami has played with me and I think been decent at reading me, did you talk to her about me?

Of course.

She feels your d2 play is

awful

, but we have agreed to accept OT's townread on you for now.

Kagami - How did he confuse this?

He didn't confuse anything, he was accurately conveying that I didn't like your posting at the beginning of Day 2.

He italicized the "awful" because of a different paragraph in which I overused the word, which he apparently found amusing.

They said they're a joat? They had a one-shot cop which they used on WoF and got back town. They said their other role was a role cop which they used on AJ and learned miller.

Our role name is JoAT and this is accurate with the minor point that the cop was explicitly Sane. We're the queen of swords, fwiw.


And if we were scum, we'd have claimed a cop guilty on AJ with certaint

[Kamigami]

Kami/WoF/Bacde/?/?

If we were scum, I'd have claimed 2-shot cop with a guilty on AJ.

[Kamigami]

Hey, guys. This is FakeGod.

I have role info now that says ProHawk is town. We have like.... 7 cleared people now or something?

I'm guessing town is so ahead at this point that we could probably lynch at random and still win.

[Kamigami]

I know, i dont think i had a scumread on farside after i got my scumread on Wis, dunno what the heck OT was going on about.

Btw FG, could you please do a breakdown of your night actions (not necessarily the results?) i wanna see something.

N1 - we used our sane cop on WoF and learned they are aligned with town.

N2 - we used our role cop on AJ and learned that he is a miller.

N3 - we used our serum thing on ProHawk and got a result that indicates him being town.

[Kamigami]

Why not use the serum on Us?

Serum thing checks abilities.

Did you claim a town-only ability?

If so, I missed it and I apologize not being able to confirm you as town.

[Kamigami]

I wanna lynch out of this pool today:

klingoncelt
Ika Zaru
Vedith
Bacde

[Kamigami]

I got a result that Bacde is town.

We could lynch him and lock down your sanity, yeah?

My guess is that you're either Insane or Sane. Being one of the other sanities makes your role slightly negative utility not to mention silly.

[Kamigami]

Bert, who do you want to lynch today?

Give me a broad list. Maybe 4-5 players deep.

[Kamigami]

Then, you believe Pie vs Wisdom thing on d1 that went on for pages was scum theatre?

Also, if I were scum, why wouldn't I just claim 2-shot cop and claim guilty on AJ when I learned that he was a miller?

[Kamigami]

yeah, I ignored most of their posts too, but do you think Pie vs Wisdom thing was faked?

Because that's a level of scum theatre I have not witnessed in a long time.

[Kamigami]

hmmm we have nearly diametrically opposed reads

I chat with gaiden about games, and I have never seen our reads differ this much

I fear it may mean that we do not share the same alignment

[Kamigami]

These aren't Gaiden's reads.

Tell me his reads.

Why didn't you use your serum on us

Did you claim a town-only ability?

If so, my apologies. You weren't a scumread of mine, so I tried to clear more obscure players.

[Kamigami]

Ok. Please ask him for his current thoughts on every remaining player.

Just a simple town/null/scum will do. I don't care about his justifications.

If he can't be reached today, then reach him tomorrow.

[Kamigami]

nah

there's no point

[Kamigami]

What's up guys

hey are you ok with us lynching you today

if no, who do you wanna lynch instead

[Kamigami]

I'm guessing town is so ahead at this point that we could probably lynch at random and still win.

Last game I was in, this was more or less said and we actually lost as town. So lets not play by this mind set please.

hey governor

when do you wanna be lynched

[Kamigami]

are you gaiden or bert

because I have no idea how bert operates

[Kamigami]

I think day 19 is suitable. Tell me if you have any objections I'll be sure to prioritise them!

You do understand that you need to be lynched well before anything resembling LyLo?

[Kamigami]

lol. "Allow us to lynch you"
how cute

uh he's the governor

he can just stop the lynch if he feels like

Quick question while I wait for a response. Is the issue because I have the power, and using it pre would mean that I can go to LyLo (given the option), or is it just the role in general?
Keep in mind I'm not using my power without towns wish, just a question.

dude

if you were scum gov, you'd just instantly win in LyLo, yeah?

[Kamigami]

oh cool so we won't lose a lynch if he's scum

that is mildly exciting

[Kamigami]

well if he was scum, he would just lie about that though

whatever, I'm not entertaining a vedith lynch today anyways

cuz we got better lynches like bacde

[Kamigami]

oh wait wisdom wanted you dead and tried to discredit your gov claim

yeah vedith is town unless there is some complicated scum theatre going on

[Kamigami]

we do?

[Kamigami]

cabd, Luna is of questionable sanity

her results very well be backwards for all we know

[Kamigami]

I agree that ika lynch is perfectly fine

I am also expecting 2+ scum remaining

[Kamigami]

Medea is town.

I will explain when it's my turn to full claim.

[Kamigami]

Here is my full claim.

Queen of Swords, The Tower, Six of Wands.
Element of Air. (changed to Air and Water after n1)
Town Jack of All Trades.
1-shot Sane Cop
1-shot Rolecop

N1 - used Sane Cop on WoF. They are town.
N1 - received a message containing a youtube link to Sister's Noise.

N2 - used Rolecop on AJ. He is Wagering Miller.
N2 - received Tincture of Sagacity. It is a 1-shot primary ability investigation.

D3 - gained access to Water neighborhood.
D3 - received message from WoF, telling me that WoF are in a neighborhood with cabd. cabd claimed to WoF that cabd has been weak-neighborized by ProHawk. (ask WoF, they will confirm that they sent the message)

N3 - used Tincture of Sagacity on ProHawk to check whether cabd is telling the truth about ProHawk. Mod confirms that Prohawk's primary ability is weak neighborizer.

I have effectively total of four clears on WoF, AJ, ProHawk, and Medea.

Any questions?

[Kamigami]

I think you misunderstand my posts, Luna. Why do you keep thinking that I'm trying to blackmail WoF in neighborhood that has bunch of other players....?

cabd thinks I'm a mafia rolecop with AJ as my scumbuddy.

I wanted to reveal WoF's message to show that I was privy to what was going on backstage, and I wanted to make sure Ceph was okay with me revealing his message.

[Kamigami]

Btw this is weird, for a JOAT 2 abilities look pretty weak considering the abilities i have and im not a JOAT.

I effectively cleared four players in 3 nights.

You think my role is underpowered?

[Kamigami]

I am aligned with Town.

[Kamigami]

Vote: Bacde

[Kamigami]

I think Luna is Insane.

[Kamigami]

did you have a chance to answer this yet?

We were Air to start the game.

We are now Water and Fire.

[Kamigami]

What's up guys

OT isn't dead?

This is the entirety of Bacde's posts on d4.

[Kamigami]

pile on everyone

let's lynch him

[Kamigami]

hey ika

this might be one of those rare opportunities to hammer a scum supersaint

you interested?

[Kamigami]

Tincture of sagacity, a rolecop which I gave to Kamigami N2

Tincture was a primary ability cop, not a rolecop btw

[Kamigami]

I don't want to claim

Sorry about being so in n out guys

Is it possible I can claim tomorrow?

bacde why did you want to claim day 5 instead of today

if you're really the role you're claiming, then it makes zero sense that you would want to hold off on claiming

[Kamigami]

like what is the point of holding off a supersaint claim till tomorrow

I literally can't think of any reason

[Kamigami]

I think you're misunderstanding the situation.

We're lynching Bacde not because his claim is bad or whatever.

We're lynching Bacde because he's scum.

[Kamigami]

Are you Nacho?

[Kamigami]

I am Nacho - why is he scum?

Unvote

Because he was voting with Wisdom and pisskop on d1 end wagon?

Because he was trying to redirect the pisskop wagon onto someone else on d3?

Why is he town?

[Kamigami]

i don't understand why there isn't a bigger issue being made out of who has the hammering vote

guys thats an important part of this if you are actually going to lynch me

it should be AJ

Sure, I'll hammer your ass.

AJ said he's willing to wreck your shit, Bacde. You're done here.

Post your last words, if you have any.

[Kamigami]

those words are actually kinda ironic in a funny way for last words

I wish ika would hammer, but he said he's openly working for the scum now, so all I can hope for now is a vig on his slot or just powerlynch him tomorrow

apparently there are bunch of nutsos who thinks AJ is a scum miller, so I guess AJ sacrificing himself isn't as bad as it could be

it's still pretty bad though, and I'm still going to yell at gaiden and his company of dumb in postgame

I'm going to wait for kling to full claim, then we can feed you to the sharks

[Kamigami]

I have a Plan.

Explain.

[Kamigami]

Vote: ika

[Kamigami]

Hammer please.

[Kamigami]

first!

[Kamigami]

yep!

[Kamigami]

I'd like to have aneninen hammer bacde today, unless there's reason to do otherwise.

p-edit: I don't disagree with plot hammer.

[Kamigami]

I think Tammy was rolecopped N1, whereupon aneninen flipped his read on her.

[Kamigami]

Fluff gave us the tincture on N2, and we already said on D3 that whoever gave it to us is was town.

If they were scum, I don't see why they wouldn't kill us N3 to get all the benefits of the gift and none of the disadvantage.

Gifting Luna was definitely odd, though.

[Kamigami]

On a speculative note, I think aneninen enables the effects of Fluff's alchemical goodies.

[Kamigami]

No one was going to pick up those crumbs.

[Kamigami]

It was ultimately useless and I had hoped she'd picked up on my crumbs had we not massclaimed yesterday so she'd have had some idea what was going on.

I had forgotten what the third thing was.

It is indeed mostly useless, though that pisskop fake-claimed his lead card is less likely if he had any reason to think a flavor cop existed, which knowledge of Fluff's role would provide.

[Kamigami]

I PICKED THE TOWER AS MY FIRST CARD. Did so for personal reasons.

Do you actually

have

the Tower as your role?

Yes. Although I wouldn't like to post the abilities right now for damn good reasons. (For the same reasons I crumbed the card.) But I can say one thing: my role is MUCH weaker than the thing Brantz claimed.

Post-edit. My two other cards are Page of Cups and Temperance (aka The Alchemist), FYI Klingonette.

Massclaim? Ok for me. But for a full claim you need to wait until I get home.
Cards. The Tower, Page of Cups, The Alchemist (Temperance).
In the Neighbourhood of Fire. I gained it at Day1, in the middle of the Day I think. Then I got into Water. I don't remember when. Maybe at the end of Night1?
Abilities? Almost nothing. I'm enabling someone. His or her name, PR and alignment is unknown for me.

Plot hammering has the advantage that OT stays alive.

It seems to me that aneninen is enabling Fluff. The tower represents destruction and one of his side cards is Fluffs main, which ferry is interpreting as the Alchemist.

Also, in Divine Comedy Mafia, Ferry was a tree-stumper (by hammering a lynch) who was enabled by another player, where the stump effect would end once the enabler dies. She never got to use it since she lynched her enabler on D1, but she was clearly exposed to the idea.

[Kamigami]

-________________-

[Kamigami]

as long as you guys are lynching me I'll come clean and say I'm actually bomb and was trying to get nightkilled

so you cant blame me for flipping bomb and be like "we would have played optimally if we had known"

Why did you think you would have any chance whatsoever of being NKed as a supersaint? You really couldn't think of anything sufficiently kill-worthy to offset your play?

[Kamigami]

I think we should stick with plot hammers Bacde.

[Kamigami]

I think we should stick with plot hammers Bacde.

it doesn't matter who hammers me i'm not supersaint

think things through

I did!

Plot hammer bacde.

[Kamigami]

I dunno, do you have a better idea of something I could have claimed that likely wouldn't have been cced creating a cc battle, but would still possibly get nightkilled?

N5 Global Tracker, N5 Global Rolecop jump to mind, N5 full reviver (supported by the rules too!) all jump to mind as good claims given you were lying anyway.

[Kamigami]

Because there's a non-zero possibility that you're a scum supersaint who was just told that his partner would be forced to hammer him and so decided to claim he was lying.

Why does it matter to you that he doesn't hammer?

[Kamigami]

Because there's a non-zero possibility that you're a scum supersaint who was just told that his partner would be forced to hammer him and so decided to claim he was lying.

Why does it matter to you that he doesn't hammer?

this doesn't seem convoluted to you?

if I was a scum supersaint why would I reveal being a supersaint to the town at all, my partners would probably already know I was a supersaint

seriously think these things through dude, I wasn't just trying to jab at you

Non-zero. I can think of reasons to reveal supersaint as scum however unlikely.

I think plot and aneninen are also great lynches, and the revelation that Luna's role was rubbish makes me feel much better about the gamestate.

[Kamigami]

Your confusion means nothing to me. As it stands, you're going about this exactly the way pisskop did.

If you want to avoid being lynched, now would be a good time to develop some meaningful opinions.

[Kamigami]

This seems too easy.

The game is probably actually easy at this point. Our night actions worked out as well as possible, and your action was solid as well.

Luna probably should have checked that sanities included naive and paranoid (though I wouldn't have thought those counted as sanities myself), but through her confusion drew a NK on a VT.

Klingon has behaved suboptimally, but maybe ferry underestimates vig, or maybe this was gated by the scum generally being fire, and thus resistant to either of her elements. If earth and water are more town than other elements, ferry may have actually intended klingon's vig shots to have utility on par with her doc shots.

I think it's probably the case that there are two scum and they're both in {Bacde, Aneninen, Plotinus}, and we've just flat out routed them.

[Kamigami]

Fluff's actions were on point too.

I think aneninen is scum who enables fluff's powers, which is part of why the scumteam's D1 to D2 plan likely involved power-bussing him. It just fell apart when it turned out that BRantz was scum.

[Kamigami]

I mean really I am looking at what they all posted and although their votes ended up there there wasn't a whole lot of trajectory and unless you think they figured out brantz was the traitor and tried to counterwagon him then uh?

I don't think they did.

I've looked through brantz's iso a dozen times now looking for signals that would be obvious enough to the scumteam that they'd pick up on his being a traitor. It's possible that, if plot is scum, they picked up on it from the "KN and wisdom are both scummy" thing, but then I don't see why they would try so hard to prevent his death. I would think that only makes sense if he essentially outed the entire team such that his flip would be a complete disaster, but I don't see evidence of that. Maybe he did in the Fire hood, but it doesn't sound like that happened.

Every single flipped scum is on the aneninen wagon, which is unusual in a lot of ways. The pisskop-brantz-wisdom sequential scum pileup is possible, but irregular.

If they didn't know brantz was a traitor, then it makes more sense. My theory is that they thought brantz would flip town and wanted to be off the wagon and on their buddy. They planned to bus aneninen on D2 allowing them to reap the D1 scum-wagon towncred; after all, he enables a potentially strong town PR anyway. Instead, they got a D1 traitor flip, and wisdom goes on damage control, insisting that we treat it as a wagon on town and calling the constituency terrible, even though it looks to be nearly all town.

[Kamigami]

ISO Wis ctrl+f anen and give thoughts por favor

I don't find it especially enlightening, I assume wisdom can bus competently. What jumped out at you?

[Kamigami]

I think bacde is a pretty reasonable lynch in any case if he's unwilling to talk about the gamestate, I just want to discuss a bit since I've been trapped in the hydra PT where it looks like I'll shortly return.

[Kamigami]

We have the only meaningful cop shot in the game, and there's already a miller. There's no way there's a GF.

[Kamigami]

So can you think of no compelling reason that kling is town, plotinus?

[Kamigami]

The game is probably actually easy at this point. Our night actions worked out as well as possible, and your action was solid as well.

The over confidence that a game is won.
I love how often this is thrown around with the result being a scum win.

There's a big difference between our game that town had no right to think they were winning and this one.

[Kamigami]

You're forgetting hawk's shot.

Waking up (gamewise) btw

I had asked ferry about it, she said if you were a GF, PH would have died.

[Kamigami]

@kamigami: In wifom city she was town and on day 1 she was mislynched, and her perspective there looked similar to her perspective here. If people were suspicious of her, she was suspicious of them in turn. If people townread her, she townread them in turn. Her play here has been similar to that. She turned on luna because luna had a different mafia theory perspective than she did about how the neighbourhoods should be treated. she turned on ika because he called her scum. her scumread on idiocy was also omgus.

I don't know if omgussy play is a compelling reason to call her town, but i've seen her play like that as town in my only previous experience playing with her.

While I don't disagree that her play here is highly imperfect as either alignment, I find it hard to imagine that your appraisal of her pairwise interactions resulted in a universally negative opinion.

[Kamigami]

You'd have to be an ascetic neighborizer who neighborized him on the same day you neighborized elsewhere, which is sufficiently farfetched that I'm not entertaining it.

Commuter would prevent your own action.

[Kamigami]

Is there an eavesdropper notice in any of your non-elemental hoods?

[Kamigami]

Why isn't insane a threat?

[Kamigami]

I doubt they thought paranoid or naive were possibilities.

If they did, Luna's death strongly implies bacde scum since the only meaningful result requires that she get both a guilty and an innocent, which is unlikely unless bacde were scum.

p-edit: insane is exactly the same as sane.

[Kamigami]

Was anyone able to answer the question of "why didn't Klingon attempt to vig"?

Because she was foolish.

[Kamigami]

So why does she claim it?

[Kamigami]

post 27 in water has pisskop asking for opinions on fluff and kling, which he marks as moderately scummy below aj, idiocy, and wisdom.

[Kamigami]

Have to wash some dishes, but there is relevant hood stuff that I hadn't really reviewed and is relevant to klingon.

[Kamigami]

Before I go, I don't think any statement about competency as town is relevant given the level of incompetency as scum this requires.

[Kamigami]

And the "oh there are probably four doctors!" bit when farside was about to flip doctor was pukeworthy.

I thought she claimed

after

farside.

[Kamigami]

I just find it much more likely that she's wildly irrational town than nonsensical scum who received no advice from wisdom prior to his death.

[Kamigami]

OT's post there is silliness. Insane is identical to Sane in the context of a cop of unknown sanity.

---

I have vedith as lower likelihood scum than klingon. {aneninen, bacde, plot}

[Kamigami]

my list is just a rearrangement of yours, but probably with a steeper confidence drop:

Aneninen
Bacde

Plotinus

Klingon
Vedith

[Kamigami]

Lynches were optimal. Night actions were very good. NKs did almost nothing to reduce town power, unless OT's role was strong.

[Kamigami]

Klingon being scum would certainly balance the game, since the two missing vig shots seem like a significant potential source of imbalance unless there is reason to believe they're unlikely to hit good targets.

We also have absolutely no idea what powers the scum had to foil town power, and it's very likely a significant amount of it died with brantz and pisskop.

[Kamigami]

let's lynch vedith.

[Kamigami]

Unless the person who did that is already confirmed town, they should prob claim it.

[Kamigami]

Except that scum would loved-ize town-bacde with someone who is confirmed town, thereby both framing bacde and eliminating a conf-town at the same time. This was a town action, as is probably going to be claimed if you insist on it.

[Kamigami]

OT, that Luna died at all means they though the same as I thought, that paranoid and naive are not "sanities." If they believed naive was possible, they'd have let the second investigation go through hoping it hits scum, and if it doesn't, discredit it by reporting that ferry told them naive was possible.

Thus, from bacde-scum perspective, she has an "innocent" on him, meaning she's insane. When she investigates someone else, she'll probably get a guilty and there will be a 1v1 between him and whoever else.

Luna's death says nothing about bacde other than that he's not a GF, which probably doesn't exist in the game anyway.

[Kamigami]

Wait, it's until end of the day.

Ok, I agree with OT that the player who did it should claim.

[Kamigami]

Except that scum would loved-ize town-bacde with someone who is confirmed town, thereby both framing bacde and eliminating a conf-town at the same time. This was a town action, as is probably going to be claimed if you insist on it.

I think the same. If it had been a scum action,
They would have chosen eg. Plotinus.

Aneninen, if you do this again, I won't compromise on any lynch but yours. No more "hurr durr, I haven't read anything."

[Kamigami]

what I'm lovers now?

don't lynch me or vedith today guys this seems like a scum move

Were you not notified of this?

[Kamigami]

OT, that Luna died at all means they though the same as I thought, that paranoid and naive are not "sanities." If they believed naive was possible, they'd have let the second investigation go through hoping it hits scum, and if it doesn't, discredit it by reporting that ferry told them naive was possible.

Thus, from bacde-scum perspective, she has an "innocent" on him, meaning she's insane. When she investigates someone else, she'll probably get a guilty and there will be a 1v1 between him and whoever else.

Luna's death says nothing about bacde other than that he's not a GF, which probably doesn't exist in the game anyway.

1v1 is better than what he's got right now.

Which head is saying these things?

[Kamigami]

Let's figure out the loved-ization.

[Kamigami]

Why didn't you claim it?

[Kamigami]

good morning

• My cards are Justice, Judgement, Queen of Swords, in that order.
  
• They're all right side up.
  
• My element was water, but on night 1 my element became Air. I am in the Air neighbourhood.

But your second card is the Lovers, now isn't it?

[Kamigami]

So are you going to tell me you read right to left in hungary, because ns's theory seems to be correct.

[Kamigami]

Your second card is an Air Elemental card; judgment is water/fire.

[Kamigami]

not really a question.

[Kamigami]

I don't have the time/will to go through all the claims, but I don't remember any exceptions.

I said ns was incorrect on D3 because ferry had made a mistake in our N1 message. With the correction, it seems to be correct.

Thus, you're lying about your cards.

VOTE: Plotinus

[Kamigami]

If anyone has evidence that we didn't become the element(s) of our second card on N1, they should say something.

[Kamigami]

Is he joining the water hood then?

UNVOTE:

[Kamigami]

So what's the correction, plot?

[Kamigami]

It's somewhat necessary since it partially confirms your flavor claim, and the apparently scum-controlled lovedization makes flavor highly relevant.

[Kamigami]

First and foremost,
WE ARE...
1. ZA WARUDO(Dio Brando)
2. THE HERMIT(Joseph Joestar)
3. THE STAR(Kujo Jotaro)

D1 we were Air and Earth. After night 1 we were only Air.
We currently are in the Air hood and have a second hood with klingon

PEDIT: FUCK IT, DO IT LIVE!!!!

Did you ever get an explanation for the klingon hood?

[Kamigami]

He outed in fire hood like early on he changed to water (this was part of how I figured out the 1 card shift thing) but thats really fucking weird that he hasn't posted in there, especially considering fire hood at least knew he should be there. Did he out his element change in thread?

This sounds like aneninen was implying that he began only as Fire, is that correct?

[Kamigami]

I see, I thought it happened last night.

Sounds like PN did it reflexively.

[Kamigami]

I asked you a question in the water hood, btw.

[Kamigami]

Why didn't you claim it?

...I just did claim it...

When did you get the PM?

[Kamigami]

I think OT is actually right, btw.

[Kamigami]

^AJ's role is Wagering Miller, as he claimed. We know only his role name, but I doubt he's the lover-izer/neighborizer.

In general, I agree with the analysis, with the addition that aneninen is surely something more than an enabler. There's simply nothing good enough to enable to warrant the ability.

I have a very slight paranoia that there is interaction with dead players given the oddity in the rules, which might explain the neighborization, at least. I don't see any reason scum-kling neighborizes PN.

[Kamigami]

It would make sense for a dead player to do as a means of communicating a suspicion.

Seems like an odd thing for a dreaming god to do, though in the absence of the goofy rule, that Ika did it is the parsimonious explanation.

[Kamigami]

I think it's very likely that it is anen+klingon given the unexplained loved-ization.

I prefer anen lynch still. Do we really think

any

role so far is so strong/important that it warrants another player having a role that does nothing but enable it?

[Kamigami]

Let's just lynch this and move on.

VOTE: Aneninen

[Kamigami]

Bacde wagon is dumb given that vedith is very near conf-town now.

Given the lovedization is scum-controlled, it makes absolutely no sense they would tie vedith to the most likely lynch if he's scum given that there was enough anti-vedith sentiment that it was possible people would become even more enthusiastic about the lynch.

[Kamigami]

We can lynch him tomorrow if FG wants him dead over klingon; he still deserves death independent of alignment.

[Kamigami]

Just in case, a message to the dead:

If the neighborization was done by you one of you zombies, do something to Vedith tonight.
If the lovedization was done by you one of you zombies, do something to ProHawk tonight.
If both was done by you one of you zombies, do something to WoF tonight.

[Kamigami]

Why not choose someone more clearly town, then?

[Kamigami]

VOTE: klingon

[Kamigami]

This is why governors should have to act pre-emptively.

[Kamigami]

Yep. Governors in general are not good design. There needs to be a reason to govern lynches other than to screw quickhammering scum.

[Kamigami]

A governor who both prevents the lynch and the NK would be interesting as either alignment.

[Kamigami]

tsk tsk Nacho

I would have lynched Bacde over Kling yesterday

lynch all liars never fails

[Kamigami]

I think you are scum and should be lynched today.

[Kamigami]

Are you insane?

[Kamigami]

Are you thinking scum restricted inventor? (kinda like how DGB had to give out inventions to town players in Fate mafia 2)

I don't know if we actually want to go for a hero play here.

[Kamigami]

I mean we theoretically COULD go for a hero play.

Even if we lynched ns and he flipped town, we could still chop through Anen/Bacde/Plot and win.

[Kamigami]

It's actually been bothering me for awhile.

I thought Anen's early game reads were pretty reasonable, and I don't think d1 pie vs Wis was faked, which meant assuming we had 2 scum left, it meant our assumptions were wrong and bert or ns was scum.

[Kamigami]

it goes against lot of the conventional plays

it's like vigging a cop inno hoping for a godfather, if that makes sense

(I've seen such play come from andrew94, a renown village idiot, if you remember him from few years back)

[Kamigami]

No, no, no. There's nothing to reconsider.

You know what differentiates me from players like andrew94?

I don't bet on hero plays, because miracles don't happen.

We're going to lynch through Bacde/Anen/Plot and win this game.

If scum_ns is gutsy enough to give the legendary NACHOMAMMA a tree stump, and hydra of me and Kagami an ability cop, then I don't really mind losing to him.

[Kamigami]

And it turned out that andrew94 was cheating when he made that infamous vig on LLD who turned out to be cop inno'd godmother.

It was proven with 99% certainty that he had access to the scum team QT. Only reason why the listmods didn't interfere was because they didn't have the last 1% proof.

This isn't a fairytale, and miracles don't happen. End of story.

[Kamigami]

I'm going to wait and see what prohawk has to say, and then vote Bacde.

Have a nice day.

[Kamigami]

fine

we'll lynch anen first so that bacde has no regrets

is this acceptable, bacde?

Vote: Anen

[Kamigami]

Oh yeah, I forgot Anen doesn't read this game.

Let's lynch him.

Okay, okay.
Assuming we're lynching me, can we lynch Bacde next?

If you flip town, we'll lynch Bacde.

Now, self-vote please.

[Kamigami]

yeah vedith making it to the end is fine

tbh, he should have been lynched yesterday along with bacde, since it was a free lynch (we were in evens, vs we would be in odds, etc)

but OT doesn't know how to play this game, and kagami is too nice to stop them from walking into walls, trees, traffic, etc

so you guys ended up lynching sub-optimally yesterday smh

loverizer thing kinda points to vedith town anyways so I'm not too sad

[Kamigami]

I want to lynch plot.

[Kamigami]

If you were town, that would be correct.

[Kamigami]

Can always lynch vedith tomorrow. Is there a reason you think he's scum?

[Kamigami]

Ok, let's discuss.

Who is vedith's partner, plot?

What actions have you taken, AJ?

[Kamigami]

Is it just me, or is a miller implausible in a setup that has a grand total of one sane cop shot?

He's a miller with certainty. I had asked ferry about the possibility of a tainted tincture and she gave a pretty much negative response.

[Kamigami]

which I've just now realized is irrelevant, so yes, he's a miller.

[Kamigami]

PN/fluff, could you fully explain Ika's role?

[Kamigami]

I'm torn between which terrible thing ferry decided to do.

[Kamigami]

What is there to catch up on?

[Kamigami]

Anen was the correct lynch.

[Kamigami]

Fluff-plot or fluff-vedith.

Fluff-AJ doesn't line up with the start of D3, nor the rolecop gift to us.

[Kamigami]

There was supposed to be a question, but whatever. I don't think fluff is scum.

[Kamigami]

I'm sure he's as useful in death as he was in life.

[Kamigami]

He said they had discussed it in the Fire hood.

[Kamigami]

Who do you think is scum, AJ? (two names, plz)

[Kamigami]

i see.
well to summarize. from what i can remember, ika didn't say much. named his cards and that he had some number of cards to use that weren't attached to his role.

Do you know if he had another element swapper (presumably third card), or was he in any well compelled to perform the swap as early as he did?

[Kamigami]

There are apparently only three element-restricted roles.

Medea claimed one of his jailkeeps had an elemental restriction.
Klingon should have been vigging with elemental restriction
Pisskop claimed to have it too and probably wasn't lying. He most likely had at least an ascetic shot as claimed, and prob a rolecop too.

Klingon's role was very powerful and presumably influenced balance decisions. The others are meh.

[Kamigami]

Told you we should've lynched Fluff.

Hi this is Luigi.

Or Kagami who is so dang scum.
Kaga-Fluff or less likely Kaga-WoF IMO

Frustrated, Suika will do most of the posting today. Off to swim!

-Luigi

Why not Kaga-AJ?

[Kamigami]

How many cards were there, and which was the one that brought about the element change?

[Kamigami]

So then you think there is a miller and no cop shots?

[Kamigami]

If we were scum,

We bussed partners on days 1-3
We possess the only cop shot in the presence of a miller
We claimed a cop inno on someone competent rather than any of a variety of useless lurkers who would be reasonable to cop
We confirmed PH's claim, eliminating a possible mislynch when mislynches were few
We speculated that anen was weak, and never killed him

And probably many more things that make little sense.

[Kamigami]

No, fluff gave us a second rolecop shot.

[Kamigami]

O, right, and we knew from post #1 that a cop of uncertain sanity was probable.

[Kamigami]

Don't know about setup spec!!!!!!! Frustrating
Kagami How come you hedge your Gaiden read all game?

Ah, other genius head has alerted this head that WoF claimed mailman in the water thread

I thought I was pretty explicit about it in the water hood.

[Kamigami]

455 is not a hedge.

[Kamigami]

Who do you think is scum, AJ? (two names, plz)

I don't see much sense in either Vedith or Plot being scum, which is what worries me about our current proceeding. Pisskop lynch was opposed by Nacho (and Pn, and Bcade, and Ika) so Vedith could've easily governed it and forced to Echo/plot slot. Plot has been the counterwagon of both Brantz and Pisskop. Even if we're not giving him brantz (but remember, aneninen, prohawk were also counterwagons to brantz), the one to pisskop is one scum knew about and were under duress (the entire team was being murdered).

Fluff's one town point so far has been the stump to nacho. I don't understand how it's that crazy a gambit as scum. Given who's left, this would be the slot I'm most concerned about because their town cred is probably the flimsiest given events.

Outside of that: You're cleared to me (since you could've royally fucked me d2/3), you've cleared WoF and that really leaves PN. No one has really wanted to pursue that slot so I haven't continued but there's still the switch off echo to pisskop d3.

Governing forces a No Lynch, it's not a lynch redirection.

[Kamigami]

pisskop counterwagon consisted of Ika, Bacde, Klingon, and PN. Why does that make Plot town?

[Kamigami]

D1 wagon shift was more like

Plot -> Brantz -> PH -> Brantz -> Vedith -> Brantz -> Anen -> Brantz.

BRantz could be called a CW to plot, but not the opposite, and I don't think it really means much.

[Kamigami]

So then you think there is a miller and no cop shots?

There's also a chance that Luna's cop shots would've evolved with elements. Highly unlikely that role was pure negative utility.

They isn't such a chance, btw.

*There

[Kamigami]

I don't think Vedith's interaction with the lovedization is terribly likely to be scum.

[Kamigami]

I don't think I ever did?

I wanted to lynch bacde until it seemed the lovedization was scum-controlled. The Vedith death would have just been a bonus.

[Kamigami]

When have I scumread Vedith since the lovedization?