Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Reboot - Game Over, Good wins

[mastin2]

VOTE: BBMolla.

[Regfan]

I'll have all my other thoughts up after lunch but first, I want an explanation for the following from Mastin;

TOWN:
(Snip)

BBMolla

I did it, I did it! I got one scumteam!

Pine, Cooldog, and LynchMePls/ooba are Lawful Evil

.

The Chaotic Evil Scumteam is Tammy, Lost Butterfly, and Mastermind of Sin

.

But

BBMolla replaced Skenvoy, who if memory serves was as good as confirmed town

in the original thread. AV's posts have had multiple towntells in them, and have overall shown a town mindset, bringing up multiple good points and in general being a fairly logical player, with solid reads.

Add to that the players suspicious of both of them and it makes them as good as confirmed town. I have, what? Four? Five? Something like that of my suspects on one of the two wagons. And I'm fairly certain all six have expressed suspicion on AT LEAST one of the two at some point in the game. Even if I were wrong on one, two, heck, even three or four of my six scumreads (which I don't think I am), the fact that so many players on the two of them are NOT among my stronger townreads is evidence by ITSELF that the wagons are bad.


Plus, POE. I've got both scumteams, therefore, all players not listed as being one of the six is therefore town.

tl;dr?

They have many posts containing towntells, solid reasoning, show a town mindset, bring up multiple good points fairly logically and have good suspects.

Their wagon has most of my scumspects, along with many null or weaker townreads, making both stink of being scumdriven. Add in POE, and I have every reason to believe neither wagon's on scum.

VOTE: BBMolla.

[BBmolla]

Having lil' bit o' trouble with my internet, and am quite busy for the next 72 hours, anyway, but I did notice that for some reason, there's a Shadow wagon, to which I can only say WTF. I'd rather no-lynch than see Shadow lynched. I'm a good 94% convinced Shadow's a mislynch.

Same only moreso with regards to BBMolla.

VOTE: mastin

Mastin not giving a wall of reasoning?

Pretty sure that's a first.

[chesskid3]

CHOO CHOO

VOTE: MASTIN

[Tammy]

Oh hey

vote Mastin

feel like giving a reason you're voting a previous strong town read? I'm pretty sure I remember you getting all huffy that we were going to lynch Shadoweh, who you were 94% was town and was a scum driven wagon, which you were going to go after today. You said that you were even more sure that BB was town.

^^^Oh geeze. I'm exhausted. I didn't even realize BB posted the thing I was remembering just above me.

Eh whatever, I'm not voting BB. I think Mastin is a likely place to find scum.

I think Faraday asked what a cleric was? I don't know I think someone did, I'm not going to go back and look. But, in D&D set up, in case it hasn't been answered, the Cleric is typically the primary healer. *sigh* No wonder Greenknight was so convinced that Shadoweh was fake claiming.

[Junpei]

I think both mastin and bbmolla are scum.

[Moneybags]

I think both mastin and bbmolla are scum.

You know.... this actually would make a lot of sense.

[Tammy]

I think both mastin and bbmolla are scum.

Why do you think this? Do you think they're on the same team?

[Lost Butterfly]

I'm probably just going to get straight to the point and ask if mastin is claiming cop. Because that'd be cool and I'd enjoy a 1/1 in all honesty.

[Lost Butterfly]

I think Faraday asked what a cleric was? I don't know I think someone did, I'm not going to go back and look. But, in D&D set up, in case it hasn't been answered, the Cleric is typically the primary healer. *sigh* No wonder Greenknight was so convinced that Shadoweh was fake claiming.

That was my guess, that he was a protective role. Eh, I think she could have been lynched anyway but healer's a weak role so whatever.

[Junpei]

I think both mastin and bbmolla are scum.

Why do you think this? Do you think they're on the same team?

Independently scummy; not sure about what specific team; that's not how I operate most of the time.

[Faraday]

In this particular game it's a good idea to not reveal too much about that type of thing anyway, I think.

[Lost Butterfly]

In this particular game it's a good idea to not reveal too much about that type of thing anyway, I think.

Cool.

[TiphaineDeath]

Av/Junpei-if one is scum both are, and of the same alignment. Made this connection awhile back, figured I'd point it out again if your thinkging of lynching them. BB and Mastin are still both town. But I was wrong about shadoweh, :/.

[Junpei]

Hi ya'll lets get this fustercluck back on track shall we? As a rule when I replace in I only read the last ten pages. This is what I have just done. If there is pertinent information beyond that, tell me and quote the area, I'll go back and re read it. Here's what I got from the last ten pages.

Mos Scum=Pine Scum
Mos Scum= Junpei town
Junpei Town= Mos Scum
Cool dog Scum= Tammy scum
HLScum=Tammy town
Tammy Town=HL Scum
Mos Scum= Zdenek Town
Zdenek scum= Mos scum
Empking= Town
Lost Butterfly= town
BB= possible scum (major lurking=BB scum)
Pine Scum= PV town
PIneSCUm =GV town
MOS SCum= BB Town

VOTE: MOS This lynch gives us a lot of information as well as likely being scum, lets get this rolling folks.

Uh Tiphaine... I think you lost a lot of credibility with your association convictions with this post.

Av/Junpei-if one is scum both are, and of the same alignment. Made this connection awhile back, figured I'd point it out again if your thinkging of lynching them. BB and Mastin are still both town. But I was wrong about shadoweh, :/.

1) A connection you have no commitment to

2) Completely irrelevant as we aren't considering either of us as a lynch at this exact moment

3) A soft push away from Mastin/Bbmolla wagons without any real commitment.

[TiphaineDeath]

Most of that post was just my first stream of conciousness. Of course I wasn't very commited to it. This one was formed between AV and kondi and had nothing to do with you, I am more firm in this one.

I was talking to Butterfly, she had you guys in the scum list.

Yes I am pushing away from mastin/BB here, you want commitment, look at me I'm commiting!

[Lost Butterfly]

I'm more interested in Av scum than Junpei. I don't really like connection based scumhunting, though. It's quite easy for competent players to tie false strings to townies and leads to a not much better sucess rate than random chance when misapplied.

[TiphaineDeath]

qtf, why is mastin voting, BB, explain bro .

[mastin2]

Bah. Just lost my post. It was starting a list of reasons for my vote. Let's do it again.
-Shadow flipped Lawful Evil. Shadow was not on either of my scumteams, and was in fact near the top of my townlist. That means that I was at least partially wrong in my reads.
-I'm still alive. Neither faction has tried to nightkill me, despite there being very little support for a wagon on me and many players having come to my defense as being, "Meh, it's Mastin". This tells me that I'm not on the right track--in fact, I'm probably mostly wrong, since if I were even CLOSE to being on the right track, I'd be a threat to the scum. The fact that I'm not dead is proof enough that I was wrong.
-This is further supported by MoS's thoughts on Tammy. It rules her out as Lawful Evil at the very least.
*Speaking of MoS,

His claim stinks to high heaven, and it's waaaaaaaay too convenient given Pine's claim. I'm strongly leaning toward him being the real roleblocker or scumbuddies with the real roleblocker.

This holds true a lot more than you'd think.

I didn't use it cause I didn't want to mess anything up.

When
-He could potentially block a scumkill by blocking a scumread,

Also the person I roleblocked may be able to confirm me.

-He might have had a player been able to verify his claim yesterday had he chosen to block,
And

...Because it's possible I could get tracker confirmation? Or watcher? Or something.

I mean I think I was worth a track, no?

This could have happened a day earlier. Yet he chose not to use it.

Moving on to day two.
-Why would there be a town roleblocker and a scum roleblocker? With two scumteams in effectively two towns, you'd expect some sort of symmetry to be involved. While the scumteams don't have to be mirrored, giving one a roleblocker means that you'd have to give the other team a fairly strong power role to counter it, and then give the town a counterpart to THAT. Which I can't think of. The alternative--mirrored scumteams--gives three roleblockers in a game, not only MASSIVELY reducing the amount of actions getting through, not only causing SEVERE potential for bad interactions (roleblocker versus roleblocker, when one roleblocker might--depending on the rules--be able to both block and kill during a night comes to mind), and ALSO screws over the scum roleblocker's chances of claiming.

Then there's this.

Shall I out my roleblock?

Why the heck wouldn't he claim who he roleblocked? There's no pro-town motivation to hold back that kind of information, especially with (from a town-his perspective) another roleblocker floating about which might have targeted a PR and had said PR think it was BBMolla. There is the scum motivation, in that BBMolla if he blocked Pine would have time to fish for reactions to see if he can pick out a commoner and claim to have roleblocked them, since if he claims to have roleblocked a player with a role which went through, he's screwed himself.

Then there are the quotes I brought up before--once more, this is not only fishing, but also hoping that someone else comes to HIS rescue. Instead of facing the music and bluntly coming out and saying it, he hides and tries to not reveal his results.

But NONE of this is as bad as THIS:

Also whoever is actually roleblocking Pine is stupid as hell, there's no point in blocking him.

...Where BBMolla scumclaims, because

if he were a town roleblocker, he would think any other roleblocker were scum

. And scum roleblocking Pine is not "stupid as hell" with "no point"; it'd be playing to their wincon.

Add in this comparison, when I was defending BBMolla--

Have you played with Mastin before

With regards to me using poor reasoning. Now after I vote him and suddenly have a potential wagon on me, see what that becomes:

VOTE: mastin

Mastin not giving a wall of reasoning?

Pretty sure that's a first.

Itself a load of BS in that BBMolla HAS seen my not give reasoning, several times. And who said anything about there not being a wall? I've held back on posting walls multiple times, including BBMolla's very first encounter with me, when it looked like I had nothing but I sprung quite an impressive one after that. This is not only OMGUS, but it's also opportunistic.

All in all, BBMolla did more than enough to reverse my opinion. I'm not an idiot who stubbornly defends his obsolete reads; I know when my reads are wrong.

[mastin2]

Oh, and forgot.

He's also far more likely to be Chaotic Evil, with him claiming against Shadow and claiming Lawful Good, which makes him a better lynch since as multiple times pointed out, claiming to be Lawful Good when actually being Lawful Evil is suicide if Lawful Good wins or loses before Lawful Evil wins.

[mastin2]

(For the record,

Bah. Just lost my post. It was starting a list of reasons for my vote. Let's do it again.
-Shadow flipped Lawful Evil. Shadow was not on either of my scumteams, and was in fact near the top of my townlist. That means that I was at least partially wrong in my reads.
-I'm still alive. Neither faction has tried to nightkill me, despite there being very little support for a wagon on me and many players having come to my defense as being, "Meh, it's Mastin". This tells me that I'm not on the right track--in fact, I'm probably mostly wrong, since if I were even CLOSE to being on the right track, I'd be a threat to the scum. The fact that I'm not dead is proof enough that I was wrong.
-This is further supported by MoS's thoughts on Tammy. It rules her out as Lawful Evil at the very least.
*Speaking of MoS,

was as far as I got. I was adding in the last two quotes in the post--since the "have you played with Mastin before" is chronologically first--when I lost it, so the above is where my reasoning's not as solid, as I already typed it up and had to re-think it, whereas the bulk of the case is mostly strong in that I didn't lose it by typing it out and still had it in my mind from when I cast my vote.)

[mastin2]

Oh, oh!

Also forgot.

He went from thinking, "There's probably a town (me!) and scum roleblocker" to "The roleblocker (not me!) roleblocking Pine is dumb; there's no [pro-town] point in doing so."

Yeah...

[Junpei]

Bah. Just lost my post. It was starting a list of reasons for my vote. Let's do it again.
-Shadow flipped Lawful Evil. Shadow was not on either of my scumteams, and was in fact near the top of my townlist. That means that I was at least partially wrong in my reads.
-I'm still alive. Neither faction has tried to nightkill me, despite there being very little support for a wagon on me and many players having come to my defense as being, "Meh, it's Mastin". This tells me that I'm not on the right track--in fact, I'm probably mostly wrong, since if I were even CLOSE to being on the right track, I'd be a threat to the scum. The fact that I'm not dead is proof enough that I was wrong.
-This is further supported by MoS's thoughts on Tammy. It rules her out as Lawful Evil at the very least.

"My reads suck" fluff

Not going to comment on the rest of the post yet.

[BBmolla]

...Where BBMolla scumclaims, because if he were a town roleblocker, he would think any other roleblocker were scum. And scum roleblocking Pine is not "stupid as hell" with "no point"; it'd be playing to their wincon.

It's stupid for any alignment. He's a flavor cop, it just decides if they're part of group A or B. Why is he worth roleblocking?

I roleblocked AV.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mastin +1.

BBmolla fail-claim, AV was a terrible block choice from a town perspective and the way he's been playing hasn't been indicative of town PR so he's a safe fake target too.