When are scums scummiest?

[Faraday]

Well to a 'neutral observor' maybe Lylo? But see, scum CAN be scummy then. When you're in the game it's completely different as you've been brought to Lylo for a reason.

I like early game reads, personally.

[kuribo]

LYLO tends to favor scum more, though because they have the town on the ropes.

Late game, as I say, you have to worry about other peoples' POEs, other peoples' town reads, people who have been cleared by living or dead power roles, counter-claims, etc. Lategame is when the pressure starts to up the ante for scum.

I've never been a strong player in early game either as town OR scum, though.

[Magua]

The thing is, a scum in lylo knows exactly what they need to do to win.

If you have some conftown in 3-way lylo, and the other two crossvote, each recognizes that they need the other to be lynched to win. Very difficult to differentiate them at that point, because their motivations are pretty much the exact same.

[Timeater]

I think Mastin's lategame argument holds a lot of weight, thinking about it. And I was a RVS/earlygame kinda guy.

[Yosarian2]

The key question is, when does scum play diverge from town play (or ideal scum play diverge from ideal town play). Late game is probably the best answer out of the choices given, because the difference between scum motives and town motives is the biggest there.

On the other hand, late-late game (3 player lynch or lose, for example) is the hardest time to find scum. At that point, scum and town motives are actually almost exactly the same (basically "if I get lynched right now I lose so I'd better say and do anything I can to not get lynched" for both town and for scum). Go back and read the actual game; don't get caught up in what people are posting in the 3 player lynch or lose or you'll get it wrong.

[Om of the Nom]

The earliest I've caught scum is in the confirmation phase (by the end of a random topic confirmation phase he said "you should all know who to vote for now," and I found that odd so I attacked him for it).
But I still stick by my answer of scum is the scummiest after I die.

[Slaxx]

The thing is, a scum in lylo knows exactly what they need to do to win.

If you have some conftown in 3-way lylo, and the other two crossvote, each recognizes that they need the other to be lynched to win. Very difficult to differentiate them at that point, because their motivations are pretty much the exact same.

I think I like this post the best.

I've seen a repeating trend of answers here to the effect of "they are late game because they get away with it" and I agree with that:

Spoiler: stuff you probably know

They've killed off town PRs or outted them, so there isn't much left spontaneity to be worried about .
They've killed most of the people they can't lynch, so almost everyone is a viable wagon.
They've killed most of the people who suspected them, so the odds are a bit more in their favor than it would be early game, regardless of town: mafia ratio, which brings me to my next point:
In Lylo you and et al make up close to 50% of the town, and that means the majority of town players have to agree to lynch you, even if a buddy busses.
(4 town, 3 scum: 3 town [75%] and 1 scum to lynch as opposed to 10 town, 3 scum: 6 town [60%] and 1 scum to lynch...If your buddies refuse to bus, every town member has to vote you, obviously. Its one of the core tenants of LyLo)

So from an outsider's perspective, they probably are significantly more obvious (it would be interesting to compare accuracy of the average townie during lylo to the accuracy of an outside observer not in the game) but since the mafia has spent, or should have spent, the whole game stacking the deck in their favor and picking off threats, they appear less scummy within the game to players.

I think Midgame is a good time to pick off scum, but early game is a good time to get town reads. I usually have 2-3 townreads I am very confident on, then another 3-4 I probably wouldn't lynch without a significant change of heart by end of Day 1. I think a lot of Day 1 is just getting rid of the noise. Town will more than likely lynch an idiot, and scum will more than likely kill off an outted PR or a loud town leader. Midgame just seems to be where everything is unfolding: with a push from the mafia town have lynched easy targets, mafia needs to come up with safeclaims, etc. I think there's always a point in games as mafia where I breathe a sigh of relief (usually night before lylo) because by then its looking good.

So the tldr of my rant is
1. Scum are probably going to be more obvious to outsiders late game because they've tailored the living player list to their advantage
2. Early game is good for townreads
3. Midgame is good for scum reads
4. I really want to play as scum soon, after typing this

[Junpei]

The earliest I've caught scum is in the confirmation phase (by the end of a random topic confirmation phase he said "you should all know who to vote for now," and I found that odd so I attacked him for it).
But I still stick by my answer of scum is the scummiest after I die.

You didn't catch scum, you found one thing he said suspicious. If attacking someone constitutes catching them if scum, then I've caught every scum in every game I've been in.

[Om of the Nom]

No, the reactions afterwards solidified the read. I caught him in the confirmation phase, and it developed from there.

[Junpei]

But was he really scummy or were you just traditionally reacting to everything early on, and it happened that in early game he was scummy?

[Om of the Nom]

He was really scummy. When I was attacking him, he kept being a hypocrite, discrediting instead of defending and falling for his own scumtells. It was textbook scum behaviour and I called him out on it and pushed really hard for his lynch (but replaced out because he was an insufferable idiot and I couldn't take it anymore).

Just to clarify though, I define catching scum as calling out someone on something really scummy they did (like if they made a scumslip or something), then having the read solidify as scum later, then them flipping scum after lynch. You however may view it differently.

[kuribo]

He was really scummy. When I was attacking him, he kept being a hypocrite, discrediting instead of defending and falling for his own scumtells. It was textbook scum behaviour and I called him out on it and pushed really hard for his lynch (but replaced out because he was an insufferable idiot and I couldn't take it anymore).

town do those things too

[Zachrulez]

He was really scummy. When I was attacking him, he kept being a hypocrite, discrediting instead of defending and falling for his own scumtells. It was textbook scum behaviour and I called him out on it and pushed really hard for his lynch (but replaced out because he was an insufferable idiot and I couldn't take it anymore).

town do those things too

I think I know what game he's talking about and I have a somewhat different account of what actually happened. (I was the other scum in it.)

He is right that he was all over the guy and that he was hilariously flailing around, but he neglected to mention the fact that he replaced out due to frustration over an inability to get the guy lynched, and then proceeded to communicate with other townies in the game via pm after replacing out, which in turn likely influenced the game. (Not that I think we would have managed to prevail in that particular game anyway, it was pretty much lost in night phases.)

[Om of the Nom]

No, I wasn't commnuicating with them, I just told them I replaced out because I couldn't deal with an idiot like he was. I do admit that was a terrible decision and I have moved on from that.

[Zachrulez]

You really need to stop trying to revise what happened. The truth of it is that you were the problem in that game, not anyone else. Had you not replaced out, there was a very good chance you would have talked your own way into the rope. (The pms in question arguably had a lot to do with why that didn't happen.)

[Om of the Nom]

No, I wouldn't have been lynched. Everyone said had I kept going I probably would have gotten him lynched.
Anyway, I said I've moved on from this problem, you need to too. Stop bringing this up as I don't like you trying to make me always seem like the bad guy here.

[Zachrulez]

No, I wouldn't have been lynched. Everyone said had I kept going I probably would have gotten him lynched.
Anyway, I said I've moved on from this problem, you need to too. Stop bringing this up as I don't like you trying to make me always seem like the bad guy here.

You were the bad guy in this instance. You'd be best off never mentioning the game again, because I'm not going to let you revise the meltdown you had in that game to your favor as long as I'm on the site.

[Om of the Nom]

I did good things, and I did bad things. Let's leave it at that.

[Timeater]

on topic please

[Slaxx]

What do you think Tim

[Zachrulez]

On topic there's really not a specific time that is best to find scum, though early game tells tend to be the most likely to be forgiven.

[Slaxx]

On topic there's really not a specific time that is best to find scum, though early game tells tend to be the most likely to be forgiven.

Maybe its my abrasive playstyle, but I tend to cling to those more sometimes. I feel like because I typically throw all my thoughts down on the table by end of Day 1, scum begin to play me tunes I want to hear.

[Zachrulez]

On topic there's really not a specific time that is best to find scum, though early game tells tend to be the most likely to be forgiven.

Maybe its my abrasive playstyle, but I tend to cling to those more sometimes. I feel like because I typically throw all my thoughts down on the table by end of Day 1, scum begin to play me tunes I want to hear.

I'm talking generally more or less. You might cling onto something early that you're sure comes from scum, but everyone else will dismiss it because it's considered too early in the game to matter, and then it never really comes up again.

[Slaxx]

Oh, yep. That does tend to happen.

[greenknight]

Voted the second option. I find that scum are more likely to give themselves away by having "scummy" reasons for their reactions/votes/townreads when there's enough material for them to react to, but before town consensus starts to develop.