about votecounts...

[mastina]

Btw this is a bit of a tangent, but.

This is information that is useful and available to all players if they actually want to look into it.

With the explosive increase in the average number of pages in a game and with players far, far, far, FAR more prone to moving their votes than they used to be compiled on top of that...I don't actually think this information is as readily available as you'd think?

If you've got a 500-page game.
Are you honestly going to take the time to look for, saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay, votes which don't appear on any official votecount? (I.e., they were cast, then moved, before a votecount was placed.) This is especially true if a mod is providing only one votecount per real-life day, and yet your game is producing something like 20-40 pages in a real-life day. If there's that many posts, then it

isn't

information which is something that can be found. No human can do that on their own. It's impossible.

Site meta has shifted. A game moderator could once reliably have a votecount on every page, and often do so when making only one votecount a day at that. (For some games it might require two or three, but it was easily doable.) Nowadays a game moderator in any game of mini size or larger is lucky to get so much as an average rate of a votecount every two pages. And I emphasize, LUCKY. And to do that every-other rate they're still making multiple votecounts a day, we're talking 2-3 in order to maybe get that rate.

Mods simply can't keep up with players.
So bland votecounts give less information than they used to because they are less valuable than they used to be because they are less of a summary of the game as they used to be. It used to be that votecounts could contain essentially the whole game's history. Nowadays with basic votecounts, votecounts only encapsulate a small portion of the game's history.

[Plotinus]

Have you ever noticed when modding a game, that anyone who puts less information in their vote counts than you do is a lazy bum and anyone who puts more information in their vote counts than you do is taking things too far?

[vonflare]

[Alisae]

Okay where's the balance?

[Nero Cain]

Mods who do more than just list who has how many votes (include "0" votes, include links, show where votes have moved, etc) are influencing the game in a way that they should not.

I don't really feel like it really influences anything unless it's "allowing players quick access to information that they should look up on their own."

[Plotinus]

Okay where's the balance?

probably somewhere in between "a votecount every 48 with the names of the players not voting left off" and "the mod literally does vca for you."


I do show changes since the last vote count like this which shows Carol moving her vote from George to Bob to Anna (or possibly from Bob to George to Anna) since the previous vote count.

vc

With 5 votes in play it takes 3 to lynch

George

(L-1): Anna,

Carol

, Bob

Bob

(L-2): Markus,

Carol

Anna

(L-2): Carol

Not voting

(1): George

but people who don't probably think "that's too much work" and people who do more than i do think "they could be doing more than they are".

[Nero Cain]

look at that scumbag Carol throw her vote around.

[Alisae]

Wait wouldn't have George been lynched in the previous VC?

[Nero Cain]

like I'm p sure this is a George/Carol scum team. Carol voted her scumbuddy but when Bob voted she got off and tried to wagon Bob but it's not getting any traction so now she's trying to get Anna lynched.

[Nero Cain]

Wait wouldn't have George been lynched in the previous VC?

he already claimed Loved. Do keep up.

[Plotinus]

Wait wouldn't have George been lynched in the previous VC?

nah, carol moved her vote before bob voted.

but maybe i should've added a few names to Not Voting

[Alisae]

THAT EXPLAINS EVERYTHING

[keyenpeydee]

Wait wouldn't have George been lynched in the previous VC?

he already claimed Loved. Do keep up.

I counterclaim.
I am loved.

[Mulch]

What is "putting in zero votes?"

[Plotinus]

It means writing:

Alice (0):
Bob (0):
Carla (3): Alice, Bob, Doug
Doug (0):
Earl (1): Francis
Francis (1): Earl
George (0):

Not voting (2): Carl, George


It's annoying because it takes up a lot of space and it's harder to see what's going on.

[keyenpeydee]

It's annoying because it takes up a lot of space and it's harder to see what's going on.

Especially when you're modding a large game.

[keyenpeydee]

This is my standard vote count taken from Newbie 1802:

Vote Count

VOTE COUNT 1.04

[L-2] Wolverine

— EchoVision, JadeTheDankMemeQueen, Moha,

[1] MarioManiac4

— Wolverine,

[1] Moha

— MarioManiac4,

Not Voting

— Mythows, eltenedor, notsure, Gamma Emerald,

Mod Notes

— Welcome to Day One! Enjoy and have fun! Day One will end in June 18, 2017.

With

9

alive, it takes

5

to lynch. Day One will end in

(expired on 2017-06-18 00:05:00)

.

[Sunlit Diamond]

^ that's literally all I look at, even if there is more info in the post, and even if the game is crazy busy.

[Firebringer]

y. If there's that many posts, then it isn't information which is something that can be found. No human can do that on their own. It's impossible.

If this information can't be found by humans,
Are you telling us you are not human?

[Randomnamechange]

mod would be doing as the game goes along so its easier than players having to go back for it

[Sunlit Diamond]

I think there are subtleties in what players choose to share (or not) when they do their own vote research, that gets lost when it's all done by the mod.

[LlamaFluff]

Okay where's the balance?

probably somewhere in between "a votecount every 48 with the names of the players not voting left off" and "the mod literally does vca for you."


I do show changes since the last vote count like this which shows Carol moving her vote from George to Bob to Anna (or possibly from Bob to George to Anna) since the previous vote count.

vc

With 5 votes in play it takes 3 to lynch

George

(L-1): Anna,

Carol

, Bob

Bob

(L-2): Markus,

Carol

Anna

(L-2): Carol

Not voting

(1): George

but people who don't probably think "that's too much work" and people who do more than i do think "they could be doing more than they are".

What happens in extremes though? Lets say due to life you aren't able to get on the site for a day, and in that time Carol went nuts and cast eight votes, George got ran up to L-1, claimed and now has zero votes against him.

If you are able to make a vote count at the top of each page, that might work, but otherwise it can get very busy and confusing. How do you know what order the Carol votes were in for example? That starts making vote counts confusing to players, and that should never be the case. Its a snapshot in time, not a summary of the last few pages.

[callforjudgement]

It has come to my attention that some of you still do vote counts in non-descending order. This is ugly, hard to read and lazy. Please correct this error at your earliest convenience. To those mods that already correctly use descending order in vote counts, I applaud you and think you guys are the best people on this site.

My rules actually define the plurality tiebreak as "the person at the top of the votecount is lynched", meaning that I need fairly strict rules for keeping the votecount in order (which are compatible with your request – it's always in descending order of votes – but which have extra restrictions, controlling the order in which people appear on the votecount in the case of a tie).
It turns out that the plurality tiebreak is really hard to define correctly, and so showing it on the votecount at least makes it obvious to everyone who will be lynched.

[Nero Cain]

It's annoying because it takes up a lot of space and it's harder to see what's going on.

this I agree with.

[Ginngie]

This is information that is useful and available to all players if they actually want to look into it. You are doing something that other players do in an attempt to scumhunt or an attempt to push mislynches. If you are helping a player concoct a case by giving them that information, its too much.

Without context of a vote, highlighting why a vote was townie or scummy, there is no moderator influence.

You can say it's unfair for a moderator to put L-x as that can determine if a player was hated or loved which could influence someone who was fake claiming as scum or town or whatever really.